Serious The Politics Thread

[Bakugames]

come back when theres actually concentration like camps in todays western democracies

i dont think arguing with libs and global north leftists about north korea is actually productive or will get anywhere, but this reminded me of something completely different: do any of yall (general you) even remember ICE camps. I remember it being all the rage to point out how violent they were back in trumps government, but as soon as biden got elected is like they stopped existing, even though border control and violence increased under bidens mandate. I was never sure if the direct comparison people made to concentration camps with them was apt, though they dont feel too much different from the ww2 japanese camps at times so I get it.

its even funnier when people try to argue about voting for biden and mention them as a motive that trump is worse. I feel like if youre gonna make that argument you should pick things biden improved or dialed back on. It does show that the average american, no matter how much they claim to be left wing, will often fall back into not caring about global south lives, viewing them simply as an abstract number or concept to use as emotional guilt to get what they want (a candidate to win, an argument to be won, etc), and easily ignorable if it makes their point look worse.

 

[RaikouLover]

its even funnier when people try to argue about voting for biden and mention them as a motive that trump is worse. I feel like if youre gonna make that argument you should pick things biden improved or dialed back on. It does show that the average american, no matter how much they claim to be left wing, will often fall back into not caring about global south lives, viewing them simply as an abstract number or concept to use as emotional guilt to get what they want (a candidate to win, an argument to be won, etc), and easily ignorable if it makes their point look worse.

Yes, it’s hilarious that all these western liberals prefer a democracy under Biden to the dystopian fascist fantasy the Republicans are selling with Orange Jesus.

 

[SittinGamer]

Yes, it’s hilarious that all these western liberals prefer a democracy under Biden to the dystopian fascist fantasy the Republicans are selling with Orange Jesus.

Okay but do you mean to meaningfully address the part about ICE or continue your unironic Blue MAGA rhetoric

 

[RaikouLover]

Okay but do you mean to meaningfully address the part about ICE or continue your unironic Blue MAGA rhetoric

We can have a discussion about ICE after the fascist loses. Unless you prefer Orange Jesus rounding people up and putting them in concentration camps.

 

[SittinGamer]

We can have a discussion about ICE after the fascist loses. Unless you prefer Orange Jesus rounding people up and putting them in concentration camps.

Ah, the classic dem talking point of "after the election."

I seem to recall that we had the House, Senate, and Executive Branch for two years. "B-But Manchin!!! B-But Sinema!!!" Obama nearly had a 60 seat senate supermajority and spineless centrist libs were yet again the reason that they couldn't codify the protections they campaigned for. This vote blue no matter who, ostrich level of digging your head in the sand, is the very reason this party becomes less capable by the day in defeating the radicalization and normalization of the far right. Surely, we will simply fix the left leaning party later, as we have said we will do for... *checks notes* oh no...

 

[juoean]

wtf is there to "discuss"? and biden also puts migrants in concentration camps as was literally just said

 

[Bakugames]

Yes, it’s hilarious that all these western liberals prefer a democracy under Biden to the dystopian fascist fantasy the Republicans are selling with Orange Jesus.

Ok I keep hearing this argument: The us isn't going to become a sudden facist nation under Trump, its going to be business as normal. Hes a dogshit president, but the us has been ruled by dogshit presidents since it started. Obama bombed countries into smithereens, Bush is Bush, Nixon is Nixon. Reagan is looooooool. etc etc etc

The descend into facism didn't start in 2016 with trump placing hitler bombs on the white house that he's going to blow up as soon as he becomes president, its the end goal of an imperial capitalist power and has been in motion for years and years, with waxing and waning of its success depending on the economic status of the empire and revolts inside and outside. The us imperials status is falling, and this accelerates the conversion of capitalism into facism, and would be happening regardless if trump got elected or not, under a republican or a democrat. The increase of police and border brutality, the shrinking rights of workers, the constant challenge to take back progress (that weren't made by presidents and never will be).

I feel like you guys think hitler created facism, won by vote and immediately put concentration camps up on the first day of his rule, and it wasnt a combination of the decline of german capitalism, lost of imperial power and rise anti semitic, racist and xenophobic thought that preceded hilter and existed before he was even born

 

[RaikouLover]

Ah, the classic dem talking point of "after the election."

So you want to live under a second Trump presidency? You want Project 2025 to be enacted?

wtf is there to "discuss"? and biden also puts migrants in concentration camps as was literally just said

So to be clear- are you arguing President Biden and convicted felon Trump have the same immigration policy?

Ok I keep hearing this argument: The us isn't going to become a sudden facist nation under Trump, its going to be business as normal. Hes a dogshit president, but the us has been ruled by dogshit presidents since it started. Obama bombed countries into smithereens, Bush is Bush, Nixon is Nixon. Reagan is looooooool. etc etc etc

Orange Jesus said he will be “dictator for a day,” and that he should “have another term because 2020 was stolen from him.” The Supreme Court granted full immunity for the next Republican President. Are you saying we should ignore all of this?

 

[SittinGamer]

So you want to live under a second Trump presidency? You want Project 2025 to be enacted?

That is not what I said and you know that, unless you genuinely believe that so much as even willing to entertain criticism of THE PARTY IN POWER CURRENTLY (especially on an issue which was campaigned on the inhuMANITY of Trump's treatment of migrants) is "wanting to live under a second Trump presidency."

To make my point abundantly clear: Winning this election is important. Winning 99.9% of elections vs Republicans is important. It would generally be easier to win future elections if we have a better party platform than "the lesser of two evils who is stilly wholly content to uphold our militaristic, imperialistic interests (Israel), repression of any and all anti authority sentiments (BLM during Trump and pro Palestine under Biden), and is unable to fulfill its goals when controlling both the House and the Senate. (Bipartisan Infrastructure Law is not a policy win when, if the party could whip its causus, Build Back Better in its entirety could have been passed through Budget Reconcilliation)"

 

[Bakugames]

Orange Jesus said he will be “dictator for a day,” and that he should “have another term because 2020 was stolen from him.” The Supreme Court granted full immunity for the next Republican President. Are you saying we should ignore all of this?

trump talking about how much he'll epic kill everyone doesnt mean he'll actually epic kill everyone, just like how he didnt epic kill everyone in his first mandate.

Also lol the us president always had full immunity. How do you think they were able to destabilize countries, enact coups, and send billions to their apartheid states like israel, while the whole world watches being unable to do anything? Or does it only matter when the violence enacted in the global south comes back to the empire?

 

[RaikouLover]

To make my point abundantly clear: Winning this election is important. Winning 99.9% of elections vs Republicans is important. It would generally be easier to win future elections if we have a better party platform than "the lesser of two evils who is stilly wholly content to uphold our militaristic, imperialistic interests, repression of any and all anti authority sentiments, and is unable to fulfill its goals when controlling both the House and the Senate."

We are aware that this election is 100% important. That’s why the focus should be on the fascist candidate and project 2025. Everything else can and should wait until after the election.

trump talking about how much he'll epic kill everyone doesnt mean he'll actually epic kill everyone, just like how he didnt epic kill everyone in his first mandate.

“Dont worry guys, Trump won’t try to become a dictator. And if he does, the Republicans in Congress and on the Supreme Court will stop him!”

What has the last eight years taught us about the Republican Party?

 

[Bakugames]

“Dont worry guys, Trump won’t try to become a dictator. And if he does, the Republicans in Congress and on the Supreme Court will stop him!”

What has the last eight years taught us about the Republican Party?

The belief that trump is a unique hitler-lite that will usher fascism in one fell swoop and crown himself as a dictator is both a misunderstanding on how facists and dictators have come to power and just pretty childish. Its easy to ignore the larger scope of american fascist roots when you just create one epic hitler reincarnation that if doesnt come to power then its not going to be a problem anymore, but if he does its complete game over

 

[RaikouLover]

The belief that trump is a unique hitler-lite that will usher fascism in one fell swoop and crown himself as a dictator is both a misunderstanding on how facists and dictators have come to power and just pretty childish. Its easy to ignore the larger scope of american fascist roots when you just create one epic hitler reincarnation that if doesnt come to power then its not going to be a problem anymore, but if he does its complete game over

Whether he is 100% successful or 60% successful is irrelevant. The man told us in plain sight he will become a dictator. That is his goal. The Republican Party has shown us they will acquiesce to his every whim and will offer zero resistance. Why should Americans overlook this?

 

[Chou Toshio]

No surprise they as a Global North lefty I think both sides are right in different way.

Both the Dialectic+Material Circumstances and the actual individuals are critically relevant

 

[Bakugames]

Whether he is 100% successful or 60% successful is irrelevant. The man told us in plain sight he will become a dictator. That is his goal. The Republican Party has shown us they will acquiesce to his every whim and will offer zero resistance. Why should Americans overlook this?

Saying you'll 100% be a dictator trust me guys and having the exact same party opinion of him that they had in 2016 and 2020 does not dictatorship make. Just like how the capitol invasion wasn't a coup attempt, because that's not how coups work. Being frank, I think you just lack the perspective and research to understand how countries actually fall into dictatorships, how they're planned, and how they're maintained.

I don't even know why dems insist on this. You can just say trump is a dogshit president, everyone knows that, you don't have to invent some fantasy dystopia event to think trump is ass

 

[RaikouLover]

Being frank, I think you just lack the perspective and research to understand how countries actually fall into dictatorships, how they're planned, and how they're maintained.

I don't even know why dems insist on this. You can just say trump is a dogshit president, everyone knows that, you don't have to invent some fantasy dystopia event to think trump is ass

The felon told you he wants to be dictator in broad daylight. That is a disqualification for President of a liberal democracy.

Inventing implies manufactured evidence and arguments. No one here is “inventing” anything. How many times do Trump and the Republicans have to tell and show their plans of Orange Jesus for people to accept what at they are about?

 

[Bakugames]

Inventing implies manufactured evidence and arguments. No one here is “inventing” anything. How many times do Trump and the Republicans have to tell and show their plans for Orange Jesus for people to accept what at they are about?

The reps aren't going to get a dictatorship, just like dems aren't going to codify roe vs wade. The project 2025 plans have been the same plans they've had for years and years, just written down. Nothing has changed, nothing will change. Whoever wins, they'll just participate in mundane imperialism that they've always done, and the wheel of facism will just keep turning as it does if no one does anything beyond the status quo of yelling at people to vote and then doing fuck all for the other 4 years, republican or democrat.

 

[adjectivenoun]

its even funnier when people try to argue about voting for biden and mention them as a motive that trump is worse. I feel like if youre gonna make that argument you should pick things biden improved or dialed back on. It does show that the average american, no matter how much they claim to be left wing, will often fall back into not caring about global south lives, viewing them simply as an abstract number or concept to use as emotional guilt to get what they want (a candidate to win, an argument to be won, etc), and easily ignorable if it makes their point look worse.

You say this as if Trump would return border control and violence to the level that it was at when he was first President, rather than simply increasing it even more. I grow weary of this whataboutism. Will the Democrats finally be everything that progressives want them to be if they win this election? Probably not, but that doesn't mean that the alternative isn't worse. Will beating Trump in this election stop the rise of fascism in America altogether? Nope, but that doesn't mean that it's not worth doing. Will Trump immediately enact fascism and become an autocrat if he's reelected? Of course not; he'll have at least four years to get around to that.

 

[SittinGamer]

Will the Democrats finally be everything that progressives want them to be if they win this election? Probably not, but that doesn't mean that the alternative isn't worse. Will beating Trump in this election stop the rise of fascism in America altogether? Nope, but that doesn't mean that it's not worth doing.

Critique of the Democratic Party =/= endorsement or vote for Trump

 

[adjectivenoun]

Critique of the Democratic Party =/= endorsement or vote for Trump

Nowhere in the portion of my post that you quoted do I state or imply anything to the contrary. I don't think that the person that I was responding to was trying to endorse Trump. They are, however, peddling a kind of nihilistic apathy that I find repulsive.

 

[SittinGamer]

I suppose I was speaking on their part. I, for one, am very much trying to advocate for lighting a fire under the party's ass to force them to act, as the "we will deal with our problems after we win this election I promise" is part of what leads to this trend of apathy and distrust towards the political process. Obviously, when the two party state has its two party election, its time to nut up or shut up in the polling booth, but it is hard to not grow weary when any attempts to try and strengthen the platform or campaign for more rights more aggressively is met with ambivalence, or when shot down by the right, with a shrug and "we tried" messaging while the opponents actively weaponize their power.

 

[Bakugames]

You say this as if Trump would return border control and violence to the level that it was at when he was first President, rather than simply increasing it even more. I grow weary of this whataboutism. Will the Democrats finally be everything that progressives want them to be if they win this election? Probably not, but that doesn't mean that the alternative isn't worse. Will beating Trump in this election stop the rise of fascism in America altogether? Nope, but that doesn't mean that it's not worth doing. Will Trump immediately enact fascism and become an autocrat if he's reelected? Of course not; he'll have at least four years to get around to that.

There's only so many times you can claim that republicans will escalate something before it stops being true, and it becomes clear that dems and reps will gladly shake hands on the amount of violence something needs. It happened with palestine (anyone who claims that trump is going to make palestine worse is just talking in bad faith. these people are being bombed to death, they have the full support of the us, israel is targeting other countries because they're allowed to. theres no meaningful "worse" that you can create. it has reached rock bottom. its a genocide, on the hands on every politician in your country), its happening with ICE camps, its happening with cop violence.

I'm tired of having the cyclical discussion of "well hes a genocidal maniac but he's better than [insert slightly worse genocidal maniac]", while the "better" option keeps getting worse and worse (though they were never too different to begin with), and how any discussion about it implies you want americans turbo dead or something.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

I thought we got over "north korea is the most evil country in the world they cook people alive and put them in little soups with carrots and tomatoes" discourse. The global north will always be infinitely more brutal, "authoritarian" and facist than a country that was almost bombed into extinction and is isolated from the world by the same global north and is actually a Normal Country with Normal People on it. destroy europe and the united states and then we can talk about north korea being problematic or whatever. maybe I'll even hear you out about china or something

World Report 2024: North Korea | Human Rights Watch (hrw.org)

Yeah, maybe think about what you're trying to say before saying it

 

[SittinGamer]

Hey so people who are smarter than me about the Middle East: are blue checkmarks doing what they usually do or is the Yemen stuff rn seriously heating things up again since the Iran strike on the dome?

 

[adjectivenoun]

theres no meaningful "worse" that you can create.

I've got some bad news for you about Donald "I would let them go in there and finish the job" Trump. In every case that you've brought up, Republicans would absolutely escalate beyond what the Democrats would do with the same amount of power and time.

I'm tired of having the cyclical discussion of "well hes a genocidal maniac but he's better than [insert slightly worse genocidal maniac]", while the "better" option keeps getting worse and worse (though they were never too different to begin with), and how any discussion about it implies you want americans turbo dead or something.

We're only having this discussion because nihilist alt-leftists like yourself are continuously trying to argue that both sides are secretly the same. Were we not having this argument, we would be arguing about how best to oppose Trump, as seen earlier in the thread. Beyond that, I'm not sure what you expect. Material conditions aren't revolutionary in the developed world, and the revolution isn't going to be posted on Smogon at any rate. As far as this thread is concerned, it's elections or bust.