I'm not sure if you read my reply or not but I pretty clearly said I don't think it is a B+ mon. I think it is a C+, maybe B- mon. I voted it B on the last slate and still felt that was potentially a bit high. There will be another slate in the nearish future. It hasn't been decided exactly when that is going to happen, but it will be relatively soon. A week before voting is planned to start I'll make a post here letting people know so they can make sure there is time to get nominations in. If you have any other nominations feel free to do make them as any nominations made since the last slate will be considered. You can rest easy knowing that I think there is a very small chance MMY retains a B+ rank. We agree that it is not a good mon.
If you find a way to make it work on balance/ semi-stall please send me a team because I'd be very interested. I don't doubt that it would 'work.' My concern is that it is outclassed. I'm kind of skeptical that you could make it work with Heal Bell/Aroma support. On Bob's (I'll shoutout bigbaurens as well who did something similar with Teleport Blissey around the same time) Chien-Pao Semistall Blissey doesn't run these moves and it doesn't have the room for it. Maybe you could drop Toxic, but I'm not sure. The other option is Calyrex-I which is both great and heavily underused on balance, but I don't see how you're going to make a blance with both NP Mewtwo and Calyrex-I.
When Bob was first discussing Chien Pao (I've seen and faced most of the iterations) one of the things that came to mind is that in a lot of the replays Marshadow would do the exact same thing. The final version definitely benefits from Chien-Pao but I do think previous versions would work just as well with something else.
I see Mewtwo running into a more exaggerated version of this. Sure it 'works' but why use this over something else? With Chien-Pao I thought that it was good, but there was an argument to be made that it could be replaced with some other mon. With Mewtwo I'm almost certain this is the case. If you'd like to provide either a team or some replays I'd love to see them as I'm pretty curious and always happy to see some heat.
Sami can correct me, but I think that they're talking about any defensive utility, even if it is scant. In the Zacian-C example, it barely has any defensive utility, but it does have some. It can switch into Yveltal and some CM Arceus formes. Its natural typing and decent bulk (92/115/115 is pretty good with the typing) generally enables it to find space to setup. Even Marshadow, which is infamous for having near zero defensive utility does handle Arceus and can survive an attack from defensive Primal Groudon or unboosted Eternatus.
What separates Mewtwo is that even assuming it can find a turn to setup, it usually takes so much damage doing so that it is hard for it to wallbreak as it only has a couple of attacks due to LO chip and will be in range of most priority. I agree that the def investment for MMY seems frivolous, but when Zrp200 and I ran the calcs for max SpA we couldn't find any where it made a difference. It is something that will come into play from time to time. At least when I use MMY, I rarely mega evolve immediately unless I need the speed as the defence from base Mewtwo does come into play as you've mentioned.
Re: the last sentence. They're both dying to the same thing almost every time anyways.
They are pretty much the same here as MMY is only really choosing between Fighting and Ice-type coverage. Fire Blast is needed for the Steels. If you're running Mewtwo on HO Ferrothorn in particular is less of a concern given its poor matchup into HO in general though it does beat this Mewtwo. Yeah 4MSS is a huge reason why MMY isn't great and it is also a huge reason why base Mewtwo also isn't great.
Relying on Focus Miss sucks, I won't deny that. This extends well beyond MMY and is a problem that plagues a lot of mons in NDUbers. Most moves just arn't 100% accurate and it will bite you at times, it is something you have to deal with. I'm not really sure whether Tera Blast truly counts as coverage when it will not or should not use it every game tbh. Even with MMY's coverage issues, it can still click its moves without hesitation.
I'll address the speed bit first. Chien-Pao runs 396 speed (iirc) and its ability to outspeed Eternatus (and by extension Mewtwo) is a large part of what even makes it good in the first place. Give it 120 Speed and it is fringe viable. Outspeeding Eternatus is actually pretty big considering how threatening it can be to a lot of squads. I'm pretty aware of Meteor Beam + Recover Eternatus since it is the main set I use and I had to fight for a while to get it a dex entry. Like Mewtwo, it also frequently runs Tera Fairy and is probably at worst trading given that Mewtwo doesn't exactly take its attacks well.
These comparison vary in validity. It certainly is better against Yveltal generally. I'd call them equal against Marshadow because unless Mewtwo is setting up a Nasty Plot for free it is going to find itself in Shadow Sneak range even with Tera Fairy. Marshadow isn't switching into either Mewtwo so it comes in after something dies or gets pivoted in. After thinking about it more I'd say MMY is better against Zygarde since +2 Psystrike still OHKOes defensive and it isn't outsped by +1 Zygarde. MMY is better against Necrozma-DM since it OHKOes with +2 Fireblast and Mewtwo is never OHKOing even after Stealth Rock. On paper Mewtwo is better than MMY against Zacian-C, but in game it is about even. Zacian-C isn't really switching into either of them, but if it does it is living most attacks either would throw at it comfortably. Because of the LO chip Mewtwo dies after one attack anyways making it a wash. It is better against Pdon because of Focus Miss.
I brought up Flutter Mane as an example of a mon I do not like and think is quite bad to make a point. I wasn't trying to say it is common or something that requires attention in the builder. I don't know if Chien-Pao sees enough ladder usage to account for, but iirc it was 6.2% last month. It is definitely something to consider, but not explicitly prep for currently.
Feel free to show them. Bodden Town is me and I have me losing to who I'll assume is you. I saved that one because I wanted to see what I did incorrectly and not the 3 games before this I won. If you're nominating a mon to be ranked replays are required to show that the mon can actually do what is claimed rather than just being a paper tiger.
I do think Mewtwo can do a lot of what you've claimed, but I think you are vastly overhyping it. I do agree with most of your criticisms regarding MMY, but think MMY is C+ and Mewtwo is C- at best. I'll reiterate, if you have replays please post them because you've talked a lot about Mewtwo without providing any.
On a final note, re: Ghold it is ranked at C-. Re: Tera Dark Blob, if it is Bobsican's team, it was for Psyspam and Lunala in particular, not Mewtwo. Also going forward please use line breaks between your paragraphs as it makes your posts much easier to read.
People say its banworthy, I'd argue the tier would be worse without it since it's physically defensive profile is amazing against Primal Groudon, Marshadow and Mega Salamence. It's a splashable answer to these guys for Balance and Bulky Offense teams which are doing great right now, and it's potential to sweep with Coil + Tera is not only potent, but still manageable assuming it's a balance matchup (such as the opponent actually bringing a Special Attacker). It feels like people are preparing for it more though, so this is also why I'd argue it's worse than Eternatus is, although it's still extremely good.
There aren't many situations where this thing does nothing. It's a great progress maker into teams that can't afford to run secure checks to this thing, and a lot of teams I see usually resort to just Primal Groudon as their answer, meaning Primal Kyogre has amazing offensive synergy with others like Zacian-C and Arceus-Fairy. Due to it's uncommon weaknesses, it's abnormally tanky too, so even it's offensive sets can be a pain to remove without taking massive damage in the process. Unlike all the other mons in S- though, I'd argue this thing has no direct weakness. Yveltal is susceptible to rocks or Dark resists, Zacian-C is still quite easy to check defensively with Primal Groudon and Necrozma-DM, Ho-Oh is kinda passive and Giratina-O has no real longevity, but the only issue Primal Kyogre has is that it's kinda slow, which the bulk makes up for.
Defensive and Choice Scarf are kinda medicore. One doesn't do much outside of Taunt and Toxic to anything that isn't a physical attacker, and the other is an inconsistent, rocks weak form of Speed control. Life Orb is a great set, but that has it's limits too, such as Zacian-C, it's own recoil combined with rocks damage, and the 4MSS it can struggle with between Sucker Punch and Knock Off, the former needed to beat Ultra Necrozma reliably, while the latter is needed to further push wallbreaking and to actually scare Ho-Oh. It's a good mon, but the first two sets are simply done better by others like Arceus-Dark or Chien Pao, while the LO set has its own issues, meaning it does require a bit of thought before throwing onto a team.
Having only one set hurts, it's easy to predict even the Tera Blast Ground sets from preview as well, and even these sets aren't guaranteed to handle Primal Groudon. The Tera-hogging nature of these sets hurts the Hyper Offense teams it fits on as well. But it's not all bad, after all, it's still the best form of Speed Control in the tier in my opinion, still checks a lot like support Arceus formes, Yveltal, Chien Pao and even Giratina-O to an extent, and still works outside of HO for Bulky Offense teams. 
Defensive Ho-Oh is so unbelieveably passive that not even Toxic can save it. Offensive Ho-Oh is the ideal set for most Bulky Offense teams unless Ho-Oh is the only Defog user on the team, but even then, having yourself completely open to Primal Kyogre and Groudon is a horrible idea. Although it's typing is good, on the physical side, it's not that bulky even with the investment, and a lot of the time it's passivity makes it lose to Pokemon it should on paper beat, like Eternatus or Arceus-Fairy. This thing does feel a bit underexplored though; I've been using a 
Just like Eternatus, this thing is very flexible, but unlike Ho-Oh, it's a defogger that isn't completely passive. There aren't that many mons that want to switch directly into Giratina-O, the only ones being Refresh Arceus-Fairy/Dark or Garganacl, the last two being forced out by Dragon Tail anyways. It's a great Tera user, a great status spreader, and has been seeing loads of use on Bulky Offense, which is probably the most splashable archetype in the tier right now, which this thing fits on best.
Still a fantastic revenge-killer, wallbreaker and sometimes sweeper for Bulky Offense and HO teams alike. Didn't change too much from original VR, and I don't think the meta has shifted enough to change any opinions about this guy, although you could argue it's worse now since it has to face competition with Chien Pao, but it still has multiple redeeming qualities over it, such as the lack of rocks weakness, immunity to Extreme Speed and arguably better STAB combo.
With the rise in Yveltal, Arceus-Dark becomes much less splashable, especially since it struggles to get much done by Pokemon that aren't affected by Foul Play such as Eternatus or Arceus-Fairy. It's Calm Mind Refresh set is easily the most potent out of the other Arceus formes, but this still doesn't save the Utility set, which I feel is much less effective barring the Necrozma-DM matchup, since all the others MUs the Calm Mind Judgment set handles just as well.
For bulky offense and balance teams alike, this mon is great glue. Although it struggles against Zacian-C, NDM and sometimes Primal Groudon, it's still great at pushing out Yveltal, Giratina-O and Arceus-Dark, meaning it does amazing into opposing bulky offense teams, and sometimes even balance teams that lack Ho-Oh. It's also a good Marshadow and Chien Pao switch, making it a cornerstone on defensive structures. On the other hand, offensive sets have great surprise factor, even outside of Calm Mind Refresh, making this thing actually really good at late-game sweeps, arguably better than Arceus-Dark since it requires less to be broken down (it only needs Necrozma-DM, Zacian-C and Ho-Oh gone before Judgment/Earth Power can start putting in the work in my opinion). I was deciding between A and A+, but I think the former is fine for now.
Outside of HO, I can barely justify this thing compared to Marshadow for a revenge-killing sweeper. In HO though, it's not that bad, but it does have a bit of 4MSS with Recover (needed vs bulkier teams), Taunt (needed for Zygarde MU) and Earthquake (to hit Necrozma-DM and Zacian-C and maybe Primal Groudon). It does have Dragon Dance which alleviates it's issues with Marshadow, but I'd argue Arceus-Ghost is better in that situation, who also runs Extreme Speed. This still doesn't solve how it's completely deadweight against Stall since it can't break through Dondozo or Giratina at all. There are simply better mons than it, even if it's potent sometimes, and the rise of Garganacl isn't helping its case. Also Trick Room sucks I'm not using that set to argue it's good.
People already prep for this guy so hard to the point where it's basically natural. Ultra Necrozma shreds through badly built teams, sure, but against teams with at least one good answer, like Arceus-Dark, it basically does nothing. It's a huge hit or miss Pokemon, you either shred through easily, or get curbstomped. At least, that's for Dragon Dance Ultra Necrozma. Stealth Rock lead Ultra Necrozma, and Calm Mind Ultra Necrozma, while unpopular, can be quite effective at luring physical walls like Zygarde to try and stop them, and I feel like if these sets were explored more, it could probably rise above Arceus. 
Very similar issues to Ultra Necrozma, barring Defensive NDM which is a different case altogether (it's not all that and is rather specific compared to other defensive options like Zygarde or Primal Groudon). It is slightly better into Arceus-Dark thanks to Solganium Z, but it's still worse into Scarf Yveltal, as well as Primal Groudon or Zygarde.
Hyper Offense is still good even without Xerneas, and this guy is still the best lead in the metagame by far, almost beating every other hazard lead with Taunt and/or Magic Coat. Not too sure why Deoxys-S dropped to begin with, since nothing has happened for it to drop apart from Bulky Offense being mildly more popular, but it's still a great mon. 
Choice Band is the best wallbreaker in the tier. But aside from that, Dragon Dance is still very good, and is an excellent Tera abuser, such as with Tera Fire V-Create to setup and remove Ho-Oh with ease. It's got a wide movepool, from Dragon Ascent, U-Turn, V-Create and Extreme Speed, to more niche options like Earthquake, Draco Meteor and even Waterfall. 
PsySpam is good and all, but outside of that it requires a bunch of support against Pokemon like Necrozma-DM, Arceus-Dark and Yveltal, all three of which easily curbstomp it unless they're heavily chipped. It's significantly less splashable than Rayquaza or Necrozma-DM, since it has 0 defensive utility even compared to their offensive sets. It's fully reliant on good prediction meaning it gets fucked against a mispredict or Tera, additionally meaning it's got a very high skill ceiling to use effectively. 
Far from a staple on HO, and although Intimidate helps it setup, starting at 75% a lot of the time sucks. It suffers from 4MSS with Refresh, Facade, Earthquake, Roost or even Substitute as well. It's good at breaking through teams that lack Zygarde, but so is Rayquaza, who I'd rather use for the option to Tera and the option of Extreme Speed priority. Mega Salamence is also really weak to status even with Facade, since being burned limits it to just clicking the former, opening yourself up to a Necrozma-DM or Tera Steel Giratina-O revenge-kill. 
Is Gothitelle that impactful? It is far from splashable, and it's clear it requires significant team support to truly get going, such as with it needing Arceus-Fairy to prevent it from being complete setup fodder for Arceus-Dark and Yveltal after the initial trapping. Gothitelle is also prone to being baited in by mons it'd ordinarily trap, such as Dragon Dance Zygarde or Offensive Ho-Oh being able to muscle through Gothitelle, especially since Gothitelle gets destroyed by crits. It's also extremely MU dependant, basically hoping it doesn't load into anything remotely offensive so it actually has a chance to trap something and not die in the process. It's good, but it's still cheesy IMO and I don't think it's A- material. 
Call me biased, I don't care, I love this guy, and it's not that bad. Apart from the fact that Stall almost never has a consistent check into it, and that teams lacking Arceus-Ground have to completely bank on Primal Groudon to stop it, which Dragonium Z shreds through, it's still a powerful setup sweeper, and one of the only setup sweepers that actually uses Substitute effectively, putting a dent into the Alomomola, Ferrothorn and more recently, Garganacl teams that have popped up as of late, as well as other things like stopping Ditto and priority from revenge-killing it. Difficult to build around? Sorta. A bad setup mon? Not really.
I don't fw this guy at all but it's good I guess. Good speed tier, good STAB combo barring Zacian-C, and recent success with Bobsican's Top 3 Semi-Stall, Chien Pao is a threat I guess. Still faces competition from Marshadow though, and that Zacian-C or even Arceus-Fairy MU is horrid not gonna lie.
I HATE SALT CURE. Honestly this move is AIDS to fight against. It gets up rocks for basically free against all of the relevant Defoggers, and I've seen this thing 1v1 Stall before, so it's far from a C tier niche mon IMO. And don't get me started on Tera Garganacl. If Tera were to be banned, I'd be because of this guy, not Zygarde. This guy is the reason why Covert Cloak should be slashed on Defensive NDM's analysis btw.
It's just a hazard lead I don't know why it's B tier when it's still shut down by Taunt.
Nasty Plot Z-Move has no switch-ins on Sticky Web teams outside of hard Stall in my opinion. All of the specially defensive mons, mayybe outside of Arceus-Fairy, get nuked by either Darkinium Z or by Fire Blast. This little fish is heavily slept on and people need to use it more, it can be insane sometimes. Choice Specs should also get some attention since it's still great surprise factor and does a good job breaking through Bulky Offense more safely than Nasty Plot can.
Sticky Webs isn't the best and just like Glimmora it's just a lead, no need for B- IMO.
Although it's facing a bit of competition from Garganacl, it's still solid, since it's superior on the offensive side, making it much better for the more offensive teams it'd fit on. Additionally, it's immune to Knock Off, something that Garganacl doesn't really like, and has better tools to not make it as passive, such as Will-O-Wisp or Taunt. 
Might seem strange, but this guy is secretly really good. It's bulky, strong, and is very good at punishing almost every mon in the tier except Primal Groudon and Zygarde, both of which aren't too hard to deal with anyways. There was this team that was really good that had Kingambit on it, and I'm not sure if i can send it here, so I won't go into too much detail, but Kingambit is more than a end-game cleaner. 
Just as useful as Hatterene for Trick Room, which is where this archetype would belong (C Tier). It's also insanely bulky, and has a bunch of good switch-ins, such as against Arceus-Ground, Ultra Necrozma or Primal Groudon.
Was heavily considering D Tier because I have no idea what this guy does but I'm open for suggestions (if they're good I'll let it stay but if not then it's going into D Tier, seriously just use Necrozma-DM the dark and ghost weaknesses are not that bad).
This thing is just as good as Mega Venusaur, if not worse because it takes up an Arceus slot. It's a similar situation to Garganacl vs Arceus-Rock, where I guess the Arceus forme is less passive, but it's significantly worse defensively without the good ability or access to useful moves like Leech Seed or Salt Cure. I guess it can Tera but at that point just use Arceus-Ground or something.
Great at revenge-killing, good pivoting option, hits the entire tier for at least neutral unlike Pheromosa and is only really stopped by Arceus-Water and Dondozo (and I suppose healthy Defensive Primal Kyogre), which it can still U-Turn out of. Enables a lot of attackers like Primal Groudon or Marshadow since it brings in quite a lot from Primal Groudon itself, to Necrozma-DM and Zacian-C, all three of which can still be beat by Tera Ground Earthquake which also removes it's Stealth Rock weakness. Solid speed control option for teams looking for an offensive answer to Eternatus and Zacian-C in one slot.
Just use Deoxys-S lol. But it does have a better defensive profile, notably being able to set screens on Chien Pao (4x resist Crunch) and Basculegion, while also being able to pivot. Still worse than Deoxys-S though.
Needs more experimentation but if you don't have an extremely bulky mon like support Arceus or defensive Yveltal, or a Ghost type, Final Gambit Annihilape is taking a kill turn 1 barring surprise Tera Ghost or random priority moves, enabling powerful attackers like Mega Salamence or Yveltal who appreciate the dismantled defensive structure. It can pivot against predicted Ghost switch-ins with U-Turn, and in extremely niche cases, can attempt a Rage Fist sweep by abusing weak moves like Garganacl's Salt Cure or Alomomola's Flip Turn.
Probably a stretch, but it does a good job eating neutral hits from Primal Groudon, Mega Salamence and Zygarde, before walling with ease with Iron Defense. Unlike Garganacl, it has an arguably better type combination (does well into Necrozma-DM and Ultra Necrozma), learns Toxic, and has a better offensive presence with Ice Beam or Scald. Could do with some more testing though.
Potentially slept on, after a Swords Dance boost a lot of things get 2HKOed, and the lack of Xerneas removes the real need to run Bullet Punch, so Stone Edge is an option for Ho-Oh. Still niche to Sticky Web though, and it could be argued it's worse than Marshadow, although blocking Mortal Spin is a good form of role compression IMO.
Incredibly niche, uncommon and I don't really know how to feel about it compared to Giratina-O or Mega Latios.
Shed Tail can be deadly for fat teams and even Stall that rely on passive damage to secure wins, and it enables attackers like Lunala, Primal Kyogre, Zacian-C and Yveltal very easily. Has Rapid Spin support too, and can normally pivot with U-Turn as well.
Similar issue to Arceus-Dragon comparing it to Mega Mewtwo Y, Mega Diancie and even Deoxys-A to an extent.
