It doesn't do "a bunch of other things" and isn't a great item. It's intensely specific and largely mediocre, being only useful to stuff Salt Cure. Not to mention it's never been easy to fit on teams, and now this is more true than ever. The amount of mons who could run it viably were already few but now those mons have better items to be running. Also the item is literally a knock off away from being useless. At least other items are consistently useful while the concept of Cloak stopping hax is pointless when you're not guaranteed to even be overly affected by hax enough to justify running it. If something like Kyurem is causing these issues through fishing for freezes, that's a Kyurem issue.
-
The moderators of this forum are Finchinator, Ruft, ausma, 658Greninja, kd458, FayaWizard, Shaymin Skyand TPP.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
It doesn't do "a bunch of other things" and isn't a great item. It's intensely specific and largely mediocre, being only useful to stuff Salt Cure. Not to mention it's never been easy to fit on teams, and now this is more true than ever. The amount of mons who could run it viably were already few but now those mons have better items to be running. Also the item is literally a knock off away from being useless. At least other items are consistently useful while the concept of Cloak stopping hax is pointless when you're not guaranteed to even be overly affected by hax enough to justify running it. If something like Kyurem is causing these issues through fishing for freezes, that's a Kyurem issue.
Honestly this has been the biggest headache for me when facing this piece of shit. I think I've unironically last like 4 games this week just off the top of my head of someone clicking Freeze Dry or Ice Beam and just getting a freeze by sheer virtue of having so many chances to do so. Glowkings being frozen, resists getting frozen, it feels insane cuz immediately losing a Kyu answer means more often than not you are also about to go minus 10-
Fully agreed with the sentiment of your post that Kyurem and Gouging should probably go and nothing else but I'm genuinely curious about this bit, less than a month ago you mentionned that you loved things like Gouging being in the tier so I'd like to know what exactly changed your mind (If i'm understanding things right anyway) to push it to cheesy and undesirable. It has always been just a proper broken mon in general that has nothing to do with trends and moreso pure gambling hoping to not face the set that 6-0s you. I'm just tryna understand why the public opinion is shifting so hard again on Gouging because to me nothing has changed at all between a month ago and now (and honestly not only a month ago).
But anyways point still stand than these 2 should get looked at again and it's cool to see it get more momentum for sure
Last edited:
I'll be the first to admit I am wrong. I did not use Gouging Fire at all in WCoP and hardly even tested with it while I overprepared for it in some matches.
When I took a step back from the hyperfocused preparation chamber and just tried to vibe with the metagame in general, it was alarming (esp. the different sets it used). I also spoke to some other prominent players who had good perspective on it, too. This and seeing different applications of Booster sets with various defensive Teras, recovery, screens, etc. throughout OLT was a trip honestly.
Another thing is I kind of had to downplay anything Gouging Fire wise within a few months of a suspect on it -- it is not getting touched immediately after it remains unbanned, but now that we have some time, it is healthy to discuss and reevaluate. As Tier Leader, it is important to have an open-mind at every possible juncture and I will be the first to admit this leads to some opinions changing as the metagame and my understanding grow. I appreciate your question though and understand why you brought it up for sure.
And the worst part about that is that Kyurem is already Kyurem. It’s bulky enough that it has quite a lot of opportunities to spam Ice Beam / Freeze-Dry during a game and it’s powerful enough that nothing wants to be eating constant neutral hits from its already good STAB options. The more your “Kyurem checks” are forced in to deal with it, the more likely it is that your opponent wins the lottery and procs a Freeze on you.
I’ve seen the sequence of “Person switches in their Bulky Scizor, Opponent’s Kyurem uses Freeze-Dry, Person’s Scizor gets frozen” throughout both Gen 8 and 9 so much that it’s both hilarious and kinda sad.
While taking ladder points from OLT goofballs and reading some of the intermittent dissatisfaction that is expressed here, I want to share some of my personal “philosophy” of the meta to maybe bring some relief of hope to people that feel oppressed by certain Pokémon, usually because they choose to favor a particular playstyle.
The Circle Of Meta
Offense —> “Cheese” —> Boots Spam —> Weather —> Fat —> Balance —> Breakers
This is the rough loop for how I perceive ladder trends to usually play out. Most people like playing the big blasting fun stuff, so offensive styles start the generation. These teams aren’t usually very resilient and get farmed by stuff like screens, webs, TR, hazard stack etc. in turn, people use things that ignore these strategies and pull out some timberland squads. When damage is impossible through the field, it has to come through pure POWER, which is where extreme HOs like weather might shine. There’s usually a bounce back to some fat water core around this time, at which point the idyllic balance fantasy starts to play out. Then people get bored of gking click chilly all the time and decide to run some breakers. And then the cycle repeats as offense beats down the goofy breakers.
if you really want to simplify this, boots-weather-fat-balance can be condensed to a single phase.
From my experience on ladder, I think it’s currently in the breaker to offense transition, and I’d say the results in OLT bear this out. I also think these cycles can oscillate very rapidly at high ladder during periods of high play. I’ve been sitting at 2k not with any particular skill, but just because I’ve been a phase ahead of the cycle and playing webs, which farms the offenses and breaker teams. Jk im a beast. Anyway in not too long you’ll probably see more stuff like that 4fat + cinder kyurem /zama team become more ubiquitous and I’ll lose. I think this cycle is a good and natural basis for how the game evolves. Would be boring if everything was good all the time.
idk why I wrote all this. I don’t mean to come across as some purveyor of wisdom. I just feel like people get so emotional on here because theyre so attached to a particular phase of the cycle and can’t see the forest for the trees. Can’t grow the crops out of season. Like…freeeze??? C’mon. Maybe this can shift that perspective. The “problematic” Pokémon are the ones that can persist across multiple phases and dictate team building and play patterns throughout. To me, these are things like
, and 
obviously.
☮
The Circle Of Meta
Offense —> “Cheese” —> Boots Spam —> Weather —> Fat —> Balance —> Breakers
This is the rough loop for how I perceive ladder trends to usually play out. Most people like playing the big blasting fun stuff, so offensive styles start the generation. These teams aren’t usually very resilient and get farmed by stuff like screens, webs, TR, hazard stack etc. in turn, people use things that ignore these strategies and pull out some timberland squads. When damage is impossible through the field, it has to come through pure POWER, which is where extreme HOs like weather might shine. There’s usually a bounce back to some fat water core around this time, at which point the idyllic balance fantasy starts to play out. Then people get bored of gking click chilly all the time and decide to run some breakers. And then the cycle repeats as offense beats down the goofy breakers.
if you really want to simplify this, boots-weather-fat-balance can be condensed to a single phase.
From my experience on ladder, I think it’s currently in the breaker to offense transition, and I’d say the results in OLT bear this out. I also think these cycles can oscillate very rapidly at high ladder during periods of high play. I’ve been sitting at 2k not with any particular skill, but just because I’ve been a phase ahead of the cycle and playing webs, which farms the offenses and breaker teams. Jk im a beast. Anyway in not too long you’ll probably see more stuff like that 4fat + cinder kyurem /zama team become more ubiquitous and I’ll lose. I think this cycle is a good and natural basis for how the game evolves. Would be boring if everything was good all the time.
idk why I wrote all this. I don’t mean to come across as some purveyor of wisdom. I just feel like people get so emotional on here because theyre so attached to a particular phase of the cycle and can’t see the forest for the trees. Can’t grow the crops out of season. Like…freeeze??? C’mon. Maybe this can shift that perspective. The “problematic” Pokémon are the ones that can persist across multiple phases and dictate team building and play patterns throughout. To me, these are things like
, and obviously.☮
Last edited:
Well, I won't pretend know exactly how you are building your teams. Personally, I don't believe in boots spam. I build my teams purposely to not need to do this in most cases. And when I do, I tend to do more like 3 boots max rather than the 4 or 5 I see on many teams. This isn't to say you or anyone who does this are wrong or worse off. It's just a difference in philosophy, probably.
Honestly, I don't use Tinkaton much. It is useful into a lot of things, but as a Kyurem check specifically, it would still need to be mindful of ground moves. There aren't many good Kyurem checks in general, though. So this isn't really a criticism. I already said I believe Kyurem is over the line for other reasons. Just not the Freeze specifically. It could be that you need other items like AV or whatever to deal with Kyurem's power on certain mons. I had a paragraph about that which I deleted from my prior comment for being too wordy. I wish I had left it in now. As far as using cloak just to check Kyurem, this wasn't my only point about it. I said it was a good item in general and had made it clear Kyurem needs to be banned anyways. But yes, I was also recommending people use it to deal with Freeze since it is a direct solution.
I believe we have had this discussion before and you're still way off on this. Covert Cloak stops all secondary effects from damage moves, including status like Nuzzle or Mortal Spin, stat drops like Mystical Fire or Strength Sap, and anti-healing tech like Psychic Noise. If you have a wall with any sort of recovery, that cloak will ensure you can continue to do so through getting hit by Psychic Noise. If you put cloak on Hatt or Ghold, virtually nothing besides damage can impact them. If you put it on a Calm Mind mon, you can often out duel other Calm Mind mons because you will have the ability to keep healing and not get stat drops no matter what. Etc.
There are also a lot of benefits that are easy to miss if you aren't paying enough attention. Be honest, how often do you pay attention after your mon was hit by a damage move with hax potential? It's probably only when you get haxed, right? Cloak could be helping you and you'd never notice because no related text would pop up. You might even think it was useless and not pulling its weight as an item. This is far from the case. Most games have multiple moves on the opposing team where cloak would be handy.
The Knock Off bit was incredibly pointless. Literally any item ever besides the generational gimmick ones can be knocked off, including the boots that people spam sometimes. oH, bUT THe BooTS cOUld Be knOCkEd oFf! That isn't a reason to not run an item, especially if it isn't on your Knock Off absorber if you have one. Like nobody would run Moltres if they were that scared of Knock off. This is silly.
As for Kyurem, I said it was over the line for me and why. Just not because of Freeze specifically. You can disagree with that, but at this point it would probably be just us arguing useless semantics since you also seem to be pro ban on it.
I really don't like to get into the territory of telling other people how to build their teams, especially when there are plenty who are better than me, but I will say that your complete disregard for the strengths of this item is an oversight. My advice is to at least take a closer look into it since your understanding on it seems to be extremely surface level.
Three boots users is still a lot, and I'd argue is still leaning towards light boot spam especially if you're also packing something like LandorusT/Gliscor or a levitate mon.
Nuzzle? Poison from Mortal Spin? Mystical Fire stat drops? These aren't things you need Covert Cloak for... ever. Strength Sap is on one mon which is a good mon, but not something super hard to answer that you need an otherwise poor item. You also bring up Psychic Noise, but what wall is running Covert Cloak that can afford to give up another item that this interaction is relevant? The only mon I can think of is Garg and Garg still prefers lefties in all contexts (maybe someone has some super wild tech with boots or maybe rocky helmet I haven't seen). Psychic Noise is a useful disruption tool but again, it's nowhere near justifying using an item like this. Hatt has better items to be running than Cloak (AV, Lefties, Eject Button) while Ghold being the best user of it, still has better things to be running in this metagame.
You're realistically more likely to lose a game due to your own moves missing at an important time than random hax RNG. It simply doesn't justify running an item to stop a 10%-20% on average chance of hax that in most situations, won't happen or won't be game breaking. It's far more efficient and practical to just run good items and deal with hax but not putting yourself in a position where it's likely to be a game breaking issue.
Yeah, sorry but no. Boots, Lefties, AV, Helmet, these all contribute tangibly to the game in a meaningful way. These items have consistent game to game applications. Hazards will always be there and ignoring them is invaluable. Being able to have some minor but important recovery is very key in a game where every percentage matters. Increasing bulk to enable a mon to be a buffer against difficult to answer threats? Very useful teambuilding tool in a majority of games. Punishing contact? Progress making is great. What's cloak doing? Oh you're not being hit with RNG. You're not guaranteed to even be overly BOTHERED by hax in any given game which is why cloak is an uncecessary tool that doesn't serve a necessary or practical purpose. So even if the aforementioned items are knocked, they're still able to give value to a team before that.
I'm not disregarding the strengths. It's good into Garg. But that's its only meaningful application. You're arguing that preventing hax is a strength but hax is never a guarantee nor is it guaranteed to have an overtly negative impact on your game. As for your last bit, that's a very bold claim to make (that my understanding of the item is extremely surface level) considering the item has always been rare as is and only become rarer. Why do you think that is? Honestly asking. I hope you're not going to tell me that other players passing the item over are wrong too.
I'd like to add while Cloak is indeed 'niche' in its overall usage, the cases for using it are very well high and handy due to the sheer amount of hax it does have at least good use case on a surprising number of 'mons that want to avoid the random chance bullshit. I played with it in the past, and unfortunately my current set of teams im trying to build need active items but on my old teams ala Prim and Hatt soared for me in being able to "sit there and click the big button to make bigger buttons biggerest" and it felt great.
Unfortunately, during this same span of time, there was weather teams pressing the even bigger buttons at me and I reached my breaking point and opted to become the biggerestever sun button team. Feels good! (bad)
That's what I'm saying. 3 boots is my idea of boots spam. And I don't normally do even that. Generally, I run 0-1.
Yeah, run a Calm Mind set up mon and get back to me on not ever needing to ignore the effects of Mystical Fire. Shadow Ball, too.
What relevant wall is running Covert Cloak? Clod, Glowking, Prim, Corv, Pex, Ting-Lu, Alomomola, Hydrapple, and Heatran can all run it depending on your team comp and what you are trying to do. Dirge has fallen off, but it is also pretty good with Cloak.
Says the person crying about Freeze. But I digress...
First of all, Cloak IS a good item that does more than just counter hax. We went over that. Second, you were clearly talking about something that you felt was more than just most situations with Kyurem Freeze or you wouldn't have started arguing about it with me. Third, you never answered the question about how often you pay attention to moves with hax potential. This feels a tad evasive.
Yeah, sorry, but no. Boots does nothing if hazards aren't up. Run a real item that contributes tangibly to the game in a meaningful way. See the double standard here? Also, you said jack all to back up your Knock Off point considering every single one of those items you just brought up can be knocked off. This is a tangent that has very little to do with my initial rebuttal. For the record, I do use all those items you mentioned because they are also good items. But it doesn't prevent me from finding room to fit cloak.
Also, you keep saying cloak does nothing besides counter hax, which is an outright fallacious argument at this point considering how many other uses I have pointed out for it. Like Psychic Noise is not hax. You can maybe believe none of those other uses are worth it in your mind. But to keep saying it does nothing else besides counter Garg is just inherently wrong. And I know you read where I explained this because you tried to rebuke all of it.
I think that because you keep ignoring the other non-hax uses even as I say them. You say all it does is counter hax or Garg without acknowledging all the intricacies between the different sorts of secondary effects of various damage moves. You continue to do this even after I point out some of them, and again, I know you read those because you tried to argue with them. It just seems to me like you haven't truly sat through and learned it.
Like I'll add even more examples. If you face Toxic Chain Beat Up from Fezandipiti, you don't need to worry about the poison proccing ever if you have cloak. You don't need to worry about being burned by Scald or Scorching Sands. You cannot be flinched in general when holding a Covert Cloak, which while normally most useful in doubles, is still useful in singles. If you face Darkrai, you don't have to worry about the myriad of hax it has access to, from Dark Pulse flinch, to Ice Beam freeze, to Sludge Bomb poison. And Pecharunt is also rendered far less useful. Be honest, how often have you actually thought about these things?
You might find all those example I just made to be niche and unimportant in a vacuum. I can already feel it. But the thing about Covert Cloak is they all add up. And over the course of a game, it's very rare that you won't find one or more of the many "niche" uses for it. You can further your knowledge to help dictate various matchups beyond just Garg, as Covert Cloak also tends to be very good into mons like Hatt, Darkrai, and the Toxic Chain abusers. I'm not going to go into a full list of helpful matchups here. For now, just know that it is more than simply Garg that cloak is good for.
I'm gonna be blunt, and I don't mean this rudely but you're applying a lot of value to an item based on your personal conjecture rather than actual proven success (also some of this is weirdly passive aggressive and somewhat defensive for some reason). If this item has all these values you claim it does, why isn't it being loaded up more for these scenarios? Why aren't teambuilders putting it on their calm mind hatts or other random mons you listed? Why has its usage continued to decline significantly (and it was never that common to begin with)? You say that my understanding of the item is very surface level but you haven't made a compelling use case argument for this item, just listed off vacuum scenarios where, yes, the item blocks effects, but you haven't actually made a case for WHY you need to block these effects. They're not some insanely annoying thing that makes it hard to win or teambuild around, or play around. Outside hax, dealing with secondary effects from moves is just a matter of play and build better, most of the time.
The mons you gave as examples of "good" users of the item (Clod, Glowking, Prim, Corv, Pex, Ting-Lu, Alomomola, Hydrapple, and Heatran), the only actually "good" users of these is Corv, and purely on Stall is this set even worth anything as there they can fit sturdy enough knock off absorbers for the relevant mons. And even then, it's only used on Corv sometimes BECAUSE OF GARG. They're not sticking it on Corv because Psychic Noise or Nuzzle or other stuff, it's Salt Cure. Clodsire might see use with it also on Stall but the loss of Boots is heavily undesirable on those structures for it when it'll just end up ripped up by spikes. Glowking, Mola, Pex and Hydrapple have no use for the item (and Pex/Mola are knock bait) because of Regenerator (and they don't care about the other moves you listed either). Prim is used to check darks and thus, is also knock off bait but also has far better items to run. What use does Ting-Lu have for it? Heatran also doesn't have any use for it outside Garg, and Heatran still prefers Balloon/Lefties (and also is not very good atm so).
By the way, Cloak does not affect Toxic Chain users. The ability is applying the status, but it's not stitching that as a secondary effect into those moves. Cloak can't block it.
Lastly, I'm gonna ask one more time for you to address this. You accused me of having an extremely surface level understanding of the item, but my attitude towards the item isn't uncommon. I asked you why you think the item is only becoming rarer, because it has been. It's usage has only continued to decrease with time. So please tell me why that is.
Covert Cloak is a good item, and its something that probably should be considered more on multiple different mons.
However, I can see the reasoning behind the item not being used.
Against items like leftovers or heavy duty boots, its a bit less apparant when its impactful because there is no message saying when the secondary effect has happened. Whenever you use something like boots, lefties or even focus sash, you can SEE when it procs. But for covert cloak, it doesn't. You can't know if that dark pulse would have flinched, or if that freeze dry would have frozen. It might have saved you from that 'hax', but you will never know.
Despite this, I do think the item is still good and mons can use it. If you can manage hazards (don't use cloak on a stealth rock weak mon, that's asking for failure) then it can be quite powerful to remove a lot of 'variance' from the game. Cm users heavily appreciate it and some walls like not having to deal with psychic noise. Some physical attackers could use it to not deal with scald burns (though lum berry is prob better in this case).
Some mons that can use covert cloak well are hatterene (stopping psychic noise is big for it, that's part of what stops its sweep), gholdengo (shits on salt cure garg and does better against zama) and corviknight (specially defensive id can wall darkrai, kyurem and garg much more reliably). There are other mons that could prob use it, but this is just what from I've tested.
Somebody has brought up something that helps against these 'hax' things, and frankly people should experiment with them. Dismissing it entirely because 'oh, but other items are better' is not really true. Why would I use Lum Berry on Kingambit if HDB/Lefties/Black glasses is better on it overall? Because its an item that helps out in specific scenarios that the other items cannot, which is exactly what cloak does. If you want to use sp.defensive corviknight as the main way to deal with darkrai or kyurem (though you probably shouldn't), then covert cloak can help ensure that.
However, I can see the reasoning behind the item not being used.
Against items like leftovers or heavy duty boots, its a bit less apparant when its impactful because there is no message saying when the secondary effect has happened. Whenever you use something like boots, lefties or even focus sash, you can SEE when it procs. But for covert cloak, it doesn't. You can't know if that dark pulse would have flinched, or if that freeze dry would have frozen. It might have saved you from that 'hax', but you will never know.
Despite this, I do think the item is still good and mons can use it. If you can manage hazards (don't use cloak on a stealth rock weak mon, that's asking for failure) then it can be quite powerful to remove a lot of 'variance' from the game. Cm users heavily appreciate it and some walls like not having to deal with psychic noise. Some physical attackers could use it to not deal with scald burns (though lum berry is prob better in this case).
Some mons that can use covert cloak well are hatterene (stopping psychic noise is big for it, that's part of what stops its sweep), gholdengo (shits on salt cure garg and does better against zama) and corviknight (specially defensive id can wall darkrai, kyurem and garg much more reliably). There are other mons that could prob use it, but this is just what from I've tested.
Somebody has brought up something that helps against these 'hax' things, and frankly people should experiment with them. Dismissing it entirely because 'oh, but other items are better' is not really true. Why would I use Lum Berry on Kingambit if HDB/Lefties/Black glasses is better on it overall? Because its an item that helps out in specific scenarios that the other items cannot, which is exactly what cloak does. If you want to use sp.defensive corviknight as the main way to deal with darkrai or kyurem (though you probably shouldn't), then covert cloak can help ensure that.
Okay, this part annoyed me a bit, you can't complain about a 10% proc chance, then when somebody says "hey, why not use an item that prevents that" turn around and say "oh, but why should I be running an item that is for such a low chance". These 10%-20% chances will have multiple chances to proc across a game, you will probably encounter a few times per game. And saying that they 'won't be game breaking' when people are complaining about even one kyurem freeze deciding the game is bordering on levels of being ignorant of the current conversation. I am going to assume that you are not being ignorant, but please don't say something like that which basically slaps the face of everybody who is complaining about this mon.
What? You don't ever feel the need to block Psychic Noise on mons with healing? You don't need to prevent indirect stat drops on your walls or Calm Mind setup mons? There is really no situation for you? You never want to safely switch into Hatt's Nuzzle on a team where your Ground type is Great Tusk? I just cannot agree with that philosophy. Most your arguments outside of the probability of hax stem from isolating each niche case on an individual level, downplaying each one, and not acknowledging the whole or how often that item might be used in totality. Nor do you think about the teambuilding aspect beyond Garg, which again, is just demonstrating very surface level understanding of the item. Or at least that's what your arguments seem to project.
And now you want me to apparently prove it I guess? Well, I cannot directly prove something we don't have all the statistics for. As I said, no text or anything pops up if the secondary effect doesn't happen. So you'll never truly know for sure how much benefit you got except on guaranteed things like Salt Cure or Psychic Noise. Maybe this is why you don't like it. But this is also possibly why you underestimate the totality of the item's value. Statistically, it would be a nightmare to track literally ever common to niche secondary effect in OU and try to track each probability. I'm NOT trying to do that just to appease you. But you will see a lot of them in game if you play. That's all I can say without getting into a weeks to month long research project on the thing. So sorry, but I can't give you good stats for this one. I did give you plenty of example, though, and I feel like somebody of your ability could easily extrapolate on that information if you wanted to make the effort to do so.
Your main statistics outside of probability is usage, which isn't the same thing as viability. Things get overlooked in the meta all the time. People make adjustments. As for this argument of nobody using cloak, that's what would make it overlooked. Yes, I certainly do load it up. And there have been others on here that have said they liked using it also.
One thing I will say, though, is that I don't play much stall. So I can't particularly insist about that playstyle. I have tested various walls with cloak and they can work. I am at the point where, based on some light testing, I'm starting to believe cloak on stall should work. But that doesn't really mean much. So I won't pretend to know better about that particular playstyle. However, this doesn't mean I haven't tested those mons I listed earlier on balance or other teams with defensive structures. I don't really agree with your dismissiveness of most of them.
I distinctly remember a game I played on an unregistered alt where I had a cloak Prim that took Beat Up from Fezandipiti many times and never got poisoned. And I have never had a cloak mon get poisoned by Toxic Chain despite having quite a few instances. Either I got extremely lucky every time or this isn't true. If it is true, however, then thank you for the correction. If I'm mistaken, I will correct my past post.
This is low key a bit astonishing for me to read considering that I answered your question about why I thought you lacked understanding while you didn't answer several of mine.
How often do you pay attention to moves that have the potential to hax? You never answered. Nor did you answer about how much you thought about the less obvious uses. I'm going to have to assume very little, then, which proves my initial point if true. If not true, please explain.
As for the usage, I won't repeat myself since I addressed it up further. It is an overlooked item where usage of it doesn't reflect true viability.
This will be the last reply I make on the topic because I don't want to clog up the forums with a back and forth that ultimately is fruitless in the grand scheme of things. If anyone current involved in the discussion wants to, shoot me a PM and I'll reply when I have time. But I'll end with this reply here-
A good item brings consistent, or mostly consistent game to game value, and has a generally useful defined set of applications that are relevant to the game. Lefties provides pokemon with valuable recovery which in key moments, boots provides longevity through denying hazard damage, etc. These have defined, important and widely useful applications for pokemon that fill a need or want these mons may have that makes them more useful. Covert Cloak does not fill a need or want, beyond offering a Salt Cure passive damage immunity. You already need to support the user of this item to make up for the loss of recovery or the lack of a resilience to hazards that you're dropping in favor it, which is a taller ask when it's not easy to get hazards off, thus using the item demands specific teambuilding asks. Again, I repeat. No wall that is annoyed by Psychic Noise would run Covert Cloak well. You still aren't getting lefties and the hazard pressure is now extra felt, while Scald is literally on one pokemon in OU and there is no physical attacker which has room to fit Cloak just to not get burned, and if they really were fearful, Lum is a far better item that also denies other status.
Your Lum Berry argument is sort of self defeating. You run Lum because it fills a valuable role that Kingambit generally would want if it could have it: removing status as an option to slow it down (which it usually only needs Lum once in that case). HDB/BlackGlasses/Lefties AREN'T entirely better, and it comes down to team structure. But Lum actually fills a role that benefits Kingambit very well. Whereas Cloak on these random mons has no real important value that isn't replaced by good playing and team building which allows for another, actually good item.
You deal with Psychic Noise against walls by playing well so your wall isn't being smacked by the move. Positioning you know? Realistically indirect stat drops are unlikely to affect a Calm Mind or other defense boosting mon, the odds are low. You're better off just accepting the chance and running a better item because you'll be far more consistent. Not sure what the Hatt bit is, its nuzzle is nowhere near this crazy hard move to pivot into (and we have Lando-T, Gliscor and more for grounds as well as other ways to deal with it. It's hardly this gamebreaking or super obnoxious move anyways).
I understand what the item does. You're just overestimating the use and value of it, when its "use" beyond what we all know it is used for, is unnecessary. I'm not talking about percentage of it blocking hax or secondary effects. I'm talking how often it gets brought to high level games. It doesn't matter that it blocks these effects. What matters is how useful this is, and it really isn't. You don't NEED to block Nuzzle, you don't NEED to ignore Psychic Noise, you can just play better and build better.
Re: Toxic Chain: That just bad luck on your opponent's end. I've used Beat Up TChain Fez several times in one game and gotten supremely unlucky, only getting a toxic after three tries.
Everyone knows what moves can hax. You just don't think about them until they happen, but you also just accept they're there and part of the game. And finally re: usage: Just no. This logic only applies to pokemon who are proven to have viability but end up with lower ladder usage due to factors such as trends, ladder preferring certain playstyles (which those mons that are usage anomalies don't fit on), or other things. You cannot claim that its lack of usage doesn't reflect its viability, that "viability" hasn't been proven. That burden of proof is on you.
A good item brings consistent, or mostly consistent game to game value, and has a generally useful defined set of applications that are relevant to the game. Lefties provides pokemon with valuable recovery which in key moments, boots provides longevity through denying hazard damage, etc. These have defined, important and widely useful applications for pokemon that fill a need or want these mons may have that makes them more useful. Covert Cloak does not fill a need or want, beyond offering a Salt Cure passive damage immunity. You already need to support the user of this item to make up for the loss of recovery or the lack of a resilience to hazards that you're dropping in favor it, which is a taller ask when it's not easy to get hazards off, thus using the item demands specific teambuilding asks. Again, I repeat. No wall that is annoyed by Psychic Noise would run Covert Cloak well. You still aren't getting lefties and the hazard pressure is now extra felt, while Scald is literally on one pokemon in OU and there is no physical attacker which has room to fit Cloak just to not get burned, and if they really were fearful, Lum is a far better item that also denies other status.
Your Lum Berry argument is sort of self defeating. You run Lum because it fills a valuable role that Kingambit generally would want if it could have it: removing status as an option to slow it down (which it usually only needs Lum once in that case). HDB/BlackGlasses/Lefties AREN'T entirely better, and it comes down to team structure. But Lum actually fills a role that benefits Kingambit very well. Whereas Cloak on these random mons has no real important value that isn't replaced by good playing and team building which allows for another, actually good item.
You deal with Psychic Noise against walls by playing well so your wall isn't being smacked by the move. Positioning you know? Realistically indirect stat drops are unlikely to affect a Calm Mind or other defense boosting mon, the odds are low. You're better off just accepting the chance and running a better item because you'll be far more consistent. Not sure what the Hatt bit is, its nuzzle is nowhere near this crazy hard move to pivot into (and we have Lando-T, Gliscor and more for grounds as well as other ways to deal with it. It's hardly this gamebreaking or super obnoxious move anyways).
I understand what the item does. You're just overestimating the use and value of it, when its "use" beyond what we all know it is used for, is unnecessary. I'm not talking about percentage of it blocking hax or secondary effects. I'm talking how often it gets brought to high level games. It doesn't matter that it blocks these effects. What matters is how useful this is, and it really isn't. You don't NEED to block Nuzzle, you don't NEED to ignore Psychic Noise, you can just play better and build better.
Re: Toxic Chain: That just bad luck on your opponent's end. I've used Beat Up TChain Fez several times in one game and gotten supremely unlucky, only getting a toxic after three tries.
Everyone knows what moves can hax. You just don't think about them until they happen, but you also just accept they're there and part of the game. And finally re: usage: Just no. This logic only applies to pokemon who are proven to have viability but end up with lower ladder usage due to factors such as trends, ladder preferring certain playstyles (which those mons that are usage anomalies don't fit on), or other things. You cannot claim that its lack of usage doesn't reflect its viability, that "viability" hasn't been proven. That burden of proof is on you.
For somebody who keeps touting proof and shooting down assertions, you sure keep making a lot of them. This also isn't true. Just play and build better is a really silly response when cloak is literally one of the best options you could use to build for Psychic Noise. No, you don't HAVE to address it that way. But you can. You can't tell me that there is no scenario where a team might find it helpful to address that with cloak. As it is, Psychic Noise is one of the best wallbreaking tools. You can't just tell people to get good as if that isn't a very effective move.
Calm Mind mons such as Prim and Hatt running cloak can get to upper hand on sustain over other CM mons by using Psychic Noise and Draining Kiss. You can prevent their heals while they cannot do the same to you, unless they also run cloak. I have said quite a few times how cloak is good on CM mons. You say you understand things like this. What do you do instead for CM matchups, then?
??? Literally nobody said Nuzzle was this gamebreaking or super obnoxious move in the first place. However, it's always good to stop para. My example was with Tusk as your Ground type. Yeah, you could use other Ground types or even multiple Ground types on a team in some cases. But Tusk is a very common glue mon that can't switch into either of Hatt's STABs. The implication of this example should be obvious. You can't just say build better to one of the best glue mons in OU, which is vital to some teams.
If you deem the stuff beyond what I guess you are saying is common knowledge to be unnecessary, is that not an admission that you don't in fact know the deeper stuff that well? That you only bothered to know the surface level since the rest is unimportant in your eyes? This seems completely contradictory to me.
Nah. The same factors can apply to items, moves, etc. It's not just mons. I explained why gathering all the statistics for every single move would be dumb. It was never practical for you to expect some sort of statistical counter point on this exact point. I gave quite a few examples of usage, though. I believe I have thoroughly explained how and where cloak fits into the meta and why. While you can disagree on the importance of my examples, you can't claim I didn't demonstrate proper use. Any skilled player should be able to understand what I meant, even if they disagree with the overall practicality of it like you do. If you can show how it fits, that's all the case you need.
First of all, from what I see you just contradicted yourself. Second of all, isn't
the glue Mon or even ?. Third of all, why are you trying to say cloak is good. It's not. The mons that you allegedly say can run cloak viably all prefer other items(boots due to hazard stack, helmet for chip and lefties for free passive recovery). Also can you give replays of these alleged cloak abusers in action WITHOUT their preferred items cos I would like to see it actionIf you demonstrated proper use then where are some replays cos I wanna see an item that's more mid than any item to be used and to solve an issue that was practically nonexistant
Last edited by a moderator:
This is something I don't understand about this discussion: What do you define
This is exactly why think yeeting both Zama and Krai is needed.
Zama and Krai feel like a "broken checks broken" situation, and Zama is honestly seen more in offensive teams, as it doesn't want to wear boots to switch around. Pure fighting isn't that good defensively, so you will see it a lot in offense teams.
For Krai, while you mention Gambit and Prim, in a long run, Focus Miss can still claim a lot of KOs against switch-in Gambit, especially given its speed and threatening nature that it can enforce on teams. Also you only know whether it has Focus Blast or not when it clicks the move, which means you have to scout for it before deciding to switch in Gambito or not.
Same with Zama. You have to scout for its moveset before deciding what to use against it.
And those two often go together, not separately, in offense teams. They both have the speed and the power to demolish a lot of balance team.
Anyways, here are a bit of my thoughts. (I am an AG/ Ubers main)
110 speed isn’t that fast by modern standards, but this thing does get that 1.2 attack boost from the wellspring mask and can run coverage to deal with the usual checks. This thing also got the tendency to shit on fatter teams that lack Amoonguss or some other check and just outputs massive damage with Tera Ivy cudgel, but imo it’s manageable on many teams with faster mons like moon and rilla being able to check it.
nasty plot 3 attacks, expert belt 4 attacks, they are all viable sets. This thing is incredibly fast with 125 speed being able to outpace ribombee and has tons of set variety with its moves too, however, this thing is still manageable offensively with zama and val or defensively with gambit if it’s not running focus miss, and without sludge bomb primarina. It’s not too high bulk also leaves it vulnerable to revenge killing attempts from espeed and thunderclap, or sucker gambit at lower health ranges. If zama leaves, this thing will definitely become broken imo.
mixed sets decimate my favorite playstyle in OU, dragon dance can end games and specs is really hard to switch into, especially with glowking support and blizzard.
It’s mid speed tier still allows for offensive counterplay with stuff like zamazenta and val and stuff, while defensively gambit can also deal with it somewhat along with primarina and balloon tran.
so far oger is a bit broke but that’s just my bias as a stall enjoyer.
This is exactly why think yeeting both Zama and Krai is needed.
Zama and Krai feel like a "broken checks broken" situation, and Zama is honestly seen more in offensive teams, as it doesn't want to wear boots to switch around. Pure fighting isn't that good defensively, so you will see it a lot in offense teams.
For Krai, while you mention Gambit and Prim, in a long run, Focus Miss can still claim a lot of KOs against switch-in Gambit, especially given its speed and threatening nature that it can enforce on teams. Also you only know whether it has Focus Blast or not when it clicks the move, which means you have to scout for it before deciding to switch in Gambito or not.
Same with Zama. You have to scout for its moveset before deciding what to use against it.
And those two often go together, not separately, in offense teams. They both have the speed and the power to demolish a lot of balance team.
Genuine question why does no one talk about gambit as broken? There is so much talk about zama being broken but was it not originally introduced into the meta as a gambit counter? It has 30%+ usage in the tier. Feels completely centralizing. I know it was previously suspected but a mon that has that high usage and can win a 1v4 or 1v5 doesn't seem healthy at all to me. I can't imagine not using a gambit on my team specifically for those situations it just seems too good. Granted I'm an elo 1700 player at best so what do I know
Usage really has little-to-no connection to brokenness. Every generation things settle with that much usage or more. Centralization isn’t always bad if it’s within reason and with good cause — the deeper, underlying facts are what really matter. Does Kingambit have enough counterplay? Does it disrupt team construction to a disproportionate degree?
You can argue that and think it’s broken for sure, but I don’t think it is one of the main issues right now.
You can argue that and think it’s broken for sure, but I don’t think it is one of the main issues right now.
The point I was getting at is that if many see zama as broken, why not ban it and the mon it was explicitly introduced to counter? I think a less centralized meta is more fun, I've been trying to get my volcanion, sinistcha, mamoswine team to work for like a month and a half (peaking around 1720)... I fear mamo is both too inconsistent while also fitting onto the squad too well hahaha
I mean I don’t personally see Zama as broken right now and it got even less support than Kingambit when suspected (wasn’t even close actually), but if the majority of people wanted Zamazenta to be suspected, we would absolutely act on it and then we would act on Kingambit after if needed
Good luck with Mamo btw, it is hard to fit for sure. I think someone managed to win with it in WCoP though.
Very frequently, usage will manifest in things that centralize the meta because they handle a variety of troublesome threats moreso than because the high-use mon is itself the broken one (see Landorus-T's high usage in multiple Gens as a Glue mon for Metas with a lot of offensive threats and cores to Pivot around). Oftentimes the counterplay will see higher usage that the broken pieces themselves (for an extreme example, Seismitoad was always higher in usage than Dracovish during the latter's mauling of Gen 8)
Kingambit may be overtuned but it also provides a check/counterplay to a lot of prominent Pokemon such as Dragapult, Deoxys, Kyurem-depending-Tera, or punishing HO or Balance that don't carry healthy answers to it for the late game. The argument to make for a Kingambit suspect is that it warps playstyles and demands too much teambuilding to account for it to the detriment of skill expression in teams or battles.
Less vs more Centralized being more fun is subjective, so it can govern your vote during a Suspect but isn't necessarily a cause for a mon to go on docket. Gen 1-3 are arguably THE most centralized OU metas the community hosts, but these aren't considered strict problems because there is skill and ability in piloting those central elements like Snorlax or building for/around RSE Tyranitar.
I think it's also reductive to say Zamazenta was introduced "explicitly" to counter Kingambit, as if that was the primary value it brought to the game and it would not have been tested without that motive. Even with its somewhat controversial place in the Meta, it handles several other mons without being a slam dunk to remove so it's bringing Offensive and Defensive utility that isn't shaping the Meta around it so much as making it an easy blanket check to a lot of offense and balance.
While you're responding do you have any tips for my squad? Would love to get my team torn apart by the goat hahaha. I feel like sinistcha is still underrated in the meta as a physical neutralizer and set up sweeper
https://pokepast.es/81312971ca416dd1
I’ll respond when I’m at lunch, not ignoring just working rn
The only reason Gambit has avoided Ban is that every single time there have been Mons that were even more broken and unhealthy than Gambit is. And right now, the situation is the same: Waterpon, Gouger, Darkrai, Kyurem, the cancerous Mon that will never been banned (Gholdengo) and even Gliscor, all are above Gambit and constrain the meta more than he does.
Gambit is too slow to truly dominate games, which means that even the majority of defensive Mons end up outspeeding it, and Sucker Punch doesn't always save Gambit vs those. Being slow means that it's easier to get statuses or trolled by the 46357735 Encore Mons that exist in the meta (personally I don't like the move too much, but can't deny its effective). Having 3 Fight Mons between S and A+ ranks certainly doesn't help. Gambit ends up still being effective, but in practice only beats weak HOs (without Zamazenta, Tusk or Valiant) or people that want to go creative and use non standard Mons ( and even those can pull something like Okidogi or Water Tauros) .
If a Gambit Suspect happens, sure, I will vote Ban to somewhat improve the meta, just like I will vote Ban for quite a lot of Mons. However, it's far from being a priority and I by the time he becomes one, the Gen will probably have ended, so you all better learn to use Fight Mons.
Gambit is too slow to truly dominate games, which means that even the majority of defensive Mons end up outspeeding it, and Sucker Punch doesn't always save Gambit vs those. Being slow means that it's easier to get statuses or trolled by the 46357735 Encore Mons that exist in the meta (personally I don't like the move too much, but can't deny its effective). Having 3 Fight Mons between S and A+ ranks certainly doesn't help. Gambit ends up still being effective, but in practice only beats weak HOs (without Zamazenta, Tusk or Valiant) or people that want to go creative and use non standard Mons ( and even those can pull something like Okidogi or Water Tauros) .
If a Gambit Suspect happens, sure, I will vote Ban to somewhat improve the meta, just like I will vote Ban for quite a lot of Mons. However, it's far from being a priority and I by the time he becomes one, the Gen will probably have ended, so you all better learn to use Fight Mons.