Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Hiddenfreezer]

am I the only who doesn't take people serious who say Covert Cloak is bad? Have you actually ever tried the item? I literally won because I put my opponent in an unwinnable situation as their only way to win was to freeze my Corviknight with Kyurem. Guess what is impossible with a specific item.

How many times has Moonblast lowered your stats, how many times has Hurricane from mons like Pelipper confused you?

Like I still do not understand how it is that underrated.

 

[party_po1s0n]

The only reason Gambit has avoided Ban is that every single time there have been Mons that were even more broken and unhealthy than Gambit is. And right now, the situation is the same: Waterpon, Gouger, Darkrai, Kyurem, the cancerous Mon that will never been banned (Gholdengo) and even Gliscor, all are above Gambit and constrain the meta more than he does.
Gambit is too slow to truly dominate games, which means that even the majority of defensive Mons end up outspeeding it, and Sucker Punch doesn't always save Gambit vs those. Being slow means that it's easier to get statuses or trolled by the 46357735 Encore Mons that exist in the meta (personally I don't like the move too much, but can't deny its effective). Having 3 Fight Mons between S and A+ ranks certainly doesn't help. Gambit ends up still being effective, but in practice only beats weak HOs (without Zamazenta, Tusk or Valiant) or people that want to go creative and use non standard Mons ( and even those can pull something like Okidogi or Water Tauros) .
If a Gambit Suspect happens, sure, I will vote Ban to somewhat improve the meta, just like I will vote Ban for quite a lot of Mons. However, it's far from being a priority and I by the time he becomes one, the Gen will probably have ended, so you all better learn to use Fight Mons.

I just don't see how gambit is less broken than waterpon or darkrai. I very rarely find myself losing because of either. Gouging can be a little crazy especially in sun and the main reason I lose to kyurem is switching into glowking and then watching it go for dragon dance

 

[TheDuckChris]

Regarding olt teamstyles:
I think it's clear that balance is back in a big way. A lot of the most spammed teams and pokemon have been balanced / bulky offence, with that four mon core being a great example alongside increasing usage of Alomomola since Ogerpon-w is not as dominant as it was before. With all the good wallbreakers we have in the tier especially some of the suspect worthy ones it's cool to see an arms race between balance teams that have specific counters for the most popular breakers, and unique breakers that stay one step ahead of their checks.

Obviously one of the best breakers in the tier as it can go mixed with no problem, but also freeze as people have been saying. Milmilili's chansey team is a good example of a hard counter to this, as is the AV mola sets that have been creeping in on the lokix team for example.
I can't help but feel he's the reason we have tera water Gliscor or Landorus on almost every bulky offence team, but now the Tera Dragon set seeks to get around that once more. He feels worse into opposing offence as he can be outsped and is vulnerable to hazards especially from an early game Samurott for example.
Let's be honest he just isn't breaking as many walls as he used to. No recovery means he gets only a few chances to break and it's really hard to fit knock or psyshock when you still need sludge bomb and focus blast in most situations against offence. I think trick scarf is probably the most underrated at wallbreaking vs balance and stall.
Mixed wallbreaker set is very expected but very good at what it does. I find myself wanting it to come in a lot vs slower teams but still rely on crutch of Booster Energy vs opposing offence, perhaps its time to just accept the tradeoff of something like boots or another offensive item.
Not really a wallbreaker but sub variants can become really scary especially if Fiery Dance raises every time like it does vs me. Definitely does ok vs balance though has some shakier matchups like Ting-Lu.
Other balanced non-broken wallbreakers seeing use:
I dont think these are good but I do see them sometimes:

Kyurem and Gouging Fire for me are key standouts as the best wallbreakers due to a variety of options as well as the ability to work on bulkier teams.

 

[Finchinator]

While you're responding do you have any tips for my squad? Would love to get my team torn apart by the goat hahaha. I feel like sinistcha is still underrated in the meta as a physical neutralizer and set up sweeper
https://pokepast.es/81312971ca416dd1

I think your core here is good, but honestly the team is slow and relies so much on priority to do any sort of revenge killing. It’s a shame because that Mamo slot does need to be a Ground type and provide rocks, but realistically the team needs some speed. I think with Volcanion and Mamo, you’re probably doing a bit much. I’d maybe consider running Pult over Volcanion for speed and then making the Mamo into a different item as this team doesn’t really need a true lead and often is on the backfoot defogging away rocks anyway. Good luck

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

The only reason Gambit has avoided Ban is that every single time there have been Mons that were even more broken and unhealthy than Gambit is. And right now, the situation is the same: Waterpon, Gouger, Darkrai, Kyurem, the cancerous Mon that will never been banned (Gholdengo) and even Gliscor, all are above Gambit and constrain the meta more than he does.
Gambit is too slow to truly dominate games, which means that even the majority of defensive Mons end up outspeeding it, and Sucker Punch doesn't always save Gambit vs those. Being slow means that it's easier to get statuses or trolled by the 46357735 Encore Mons that exist in the meta (personally I don't like the move too much, but can't deny its effective). Having 3 Fight Mons between S and A+ ranks certainly doesn't help. Gambit ends up still being effective, but in practice only beats weak HOs (without Zamazenta, Tusk or Valiant) or people that want to go creative and use non standard Mons ( and even those can pull something like Okidogi or Water Tauros) .
If a Gambit Suspect happens, sure, I will vote Ban to somewhat improve the meta, just like I will vote Ban for quite a lot of Mons. However, it's far from being a priority and I by the time he becomes one, the Gen will probably have ended, so you all better learn to use Fight Mons.

the reason gambit avoided a ban was because there was a prominent anti-tera faction during its suspect test that protest-voted dnb because they wanted to force a tera suspect (wow guys, look how well that worked out). then there just wasn't enough time during dlc1 to get rid of it because the tiering process, even accelerated as it was during that period, is simply too reactionary to properly balance short-lived metas like that. and because of that, gambit went untouched long enough to entrench itself into the meta, like any broken thing eventually does if left unattended. gambit's continued existence is a result of the shortcomings of the current system

 

[ShizuOsaka]

The reason why Gambit avoids ban is because it's not that hard to check, even without Zamn.
If it were that problematic, it would have been banned in pre-HOME meta or DLC1 meta. But no, a lot of times it just feels like an one-trick pony that relies on Sucker Punch to be "problematic".

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

If it were that problematic, it would have been banned in pre-HOME meta or DLC1 meta.

do you know how many dnb voters changed their mind post-suspect or admitted they would have voted ban and only voted dnb because they wanted a tera suspect instead? the gambit suspect failing is not some sort of masterstroke trump-card argument that "look guys it isn't broken!!!!" and i'm pretty sure you know that

take this logic, travel back in time to when any other broken or uncompetitive thing was legal, use it as an argument to defend said thing, and see how silly it sounds. "if espathra was really a problem it would've been banned in january." "if chi-yu was really a problem it would've been banned before the tera suspect." "if baton pass was really a problem it would've been banned before gen 7." "if sleep was really a problem it would've been banned in 2004." c'mon. you can't deny the existence of a problem by pointing out that it exists

 

[ShizuOsaka]

do you know how many dnb voters changed their mind post-suspect or admitted they would have voted ban and only voted dnb because they wanted a tera suspect instead? the gambit suspect failing is not some sort of masterstroke trump-card argument that "look guys it isn't broken!!!!" and i'm pretty sure you know that

take this logic, travel back in time to when any other broken or uncompetitive thing was legal, use it as an argument to defend said thing, and see how silly it sounds. "if espathra was really a problem it would've been banned in january." "if chi-yu was really a problem it would've been banned before the tera suspect." "if baton pass was really a problem it would've been banned before gen 7." "if sleep was really a problem it would've been banned in 2004." c'mon

Yeah okay, it sounds terrible, but tell me what brokeness does Gambit have? I have never found myself in a situation that Gambit can just run in and sweep a team easily.

 

[party_po1s0n]

I think your core here is good, but honestly the team is slow and relies so much on priority to do any sort of revenge killing. It’s a shame because that Mamo slot does need to be a Ground type and provide rocks, but realistically the team needs some speed. I think with Volcanion and Mamo, you’re probably doing a bit much. I’d maybe consider running Pult over Volcanion for speed and then making the Mamo into a different item as this team doesn’t really need a true lead and often is on the backfoot defogging away rocks anyway. Good luck

appreciate the feedback! you're definitely right about rocks, and that's especially tough vs ghold. ive been kicking around the idea of replacing corv with boots defog talonflame so i can hit ghold better but obviously that isnt the most ideal. so if I were to go with pult do you think I should run tera ghost specs? having that volcanion slot as a special wallbreaker has won me a lot of games. especially with the amount of coverage it has. i'm not sure if the typical hex+boots set would allow as much offense as I need. I've also considered a scarfed tera ice lando instead of mamo but i fear having two choiced mons on one team will be too restrictive

 

[Anchor9]

Yeah okay, it sounds terrible, but tell me what brokeness does Gambit have? I have never found myself in a situation that Gambit can just run in and sweep a team easily.

The problem is it’s impossible to account for everything it can run once it’s the endgame. You must preserve your Kingambit counter near the end of the game or you will end up getting counter-swept. A good player will preserve Kingambit for the endgame in most games and reveal as little of the set as possible. At full health with Tera preserved at the endgame, Kingambit is nearly impossible to fully account for. It has 5 ( Flying / Fairy / Fire / Ghost / Dark ) very viable Tera types to choose from. Flying, and Fairy can allow it to set up a Swords Dance on Great Tusk and then Iron Head into a Sucker Punch to win. Kingambit can also carry Tera Blast over Kowtow Cleave for Tera Fairy sets, removing answers such as Ting-Lu and Zamazenta. Tera Fire allows it to prevent Dragapult from burning it, which may have been your only way to account for it if your last Pokemon was a slightly chipped Scarf Enamorus. Tera Ghost beats IDBB Zamazenta, which otherwise is one of the most solid Kingambit answers. And AOA loses to Tera Flying sooo….. yeah. It can also completely wall some Great Tusk sets when combined with Air Baloon. Tera Dark Black Glasses can break that Dondozo you had preserved just to beat Kingambit. This flexibility means you cannot have just one Kingambit answer or you will always lose to the version of Kingambit that beats it. You need to have at least two Kingambit answers. One to answer Kingambit like usual (Zama, Tusk) and then another to beat Kingambit with the Tera to beat your counter ( Raging Bolt for Tera Flying, Darkrai for Tera Ghost / Fairy)

Basically, as long as it’s preserved for the endgame, it can beat every single check it has with the right Tera, which you can’t possibly know until it’s too late.

 

[Finchinator]

appreciate the feedback! you're definitely right about rocks, and that's especially tough vs ghold. ive been kicking around the idea of replacing corv with boots defog talonflame so i can hit ghold better but obviously that isnt the most ideal. so if I were to go with pult do you think I should run tera ghost specs? having that volcanion slot as a special wallbreaker has won me a lot of games. especially with the amount of coverage it has. i'm not sure if the typical hex+boots set would allow as much offense as I need. I've also considered a scarfed tera ice lando instead of mamo but i fear having two choiced mons on one team will be too restrictive

Try specs ghost pult and then see how it feels from there. Feel free to PM me any replays or thoughts from there and I can provide further feedback after the working day

 

[ShizuOsaka]

The problem is it’s impossible to account for everything it can run once it’s the endgame. You must preserve your Kingambit counter near the end of the game or you will end up getting counter-swept. A good player will preserve Kingambit for the endgame in most games and reveal as little of the set as possible. At full health with Tera preserved at the endgame, Kingambit is nearly impossible to fully account for. It has 5 ( Flying / Fairy / Fire / Ghost / Dark ) very viable Tera types to choose from. Flying, and Fairy can allow it to set up a Swords Dance on Great Tusk and then Iron Head into a Sucker Punch to win. Kingambit can also carry Tera Blast over Kowtow Cleave for Tera Fairy sets, removing answers such as Ting-Lu and Zamazenta. Tera Fire allows it to prevent Dragapult from burning it, which may have been your only way to account for it if your last Pokemon was a slightly chipped Scarf Enamorus. Tera Ghost beats IDBB Zamazenta, which otherwise is one of the most solid Kingambit answers. And AOA loses to Tera Flying sooo….. yeah. It can also completely wall some Great Tusk sets when combined with Air Baloon. Tera Dark Black Glasses can break that Dondozo you had preserved just to beat Kingambit. This flexibility means you cannot have just one Kingambit answer or you will always lose to the version of Kingambit that beats it. You need to have at least two Kingambit answers. One to answer Kingambit like usual (Zama, Tusk) and then another to beat Kingambit with the Tera to beat your counter ( Raging Bolt for Tera Flying, Darkrai for Tera Ghost / Fairy)

Basically, as long as it’s preserved for the endgame, it can beat every single check it has with the right Tera, which you can’t possibly know until it’s too late.

To be honest, it sounds awfully like Zamazenta for me.
Zamazenta can also do the same. It doesn't have priority but it can outspeed most of the things near end game anyway. IronPress doesn't have the same wide coverage as SD + Kowtow + Sucker Punch + anything else, but it also makes it extremely bulky to deal with if you don't preserve your checks. Even then, you aren't guaranteed to check it with your specific check because it can also tera into something else.

 

[TurquoiseLink]

It's weird going back to old debates about bans.

Kingambit or Chien Pao was a really hard call in which was more broken and needed to be suspected first.

Baxcalibur, Sneasler, Urshifu are all oppressing the meta but Kingambit is the one forcing 2-3 dedicated checks on every team, preserved at full HP, and still reverse sweeping anyway. But hey, gambit survived his suspect so we might as well go for these others instead, even if they aren't as oppressive as him.

Ogrepon Hearthflame and Archduraladon are new DLC monsters. There are lots of debates over whether they're stronger than gambit.

Now we get down to garbage like neutered Darkrai and it's still a close race between it and Gambit. This feels weird, we used to argue Gambit amongst the true ubers.

It really does feel like we will eventually be debating whether Kingambit or Raichu is the more oppressive sweeper. But gambit can tank a shadow ball so he gets a pass for defensive value.

 

[veti]

Kingambit or Chien Pao was a really hard call in which was more broken and needed to be suspected first.

Kingambit wasn't on the survey because there wasn't much outcry at the time while Chien Pao had a Qualified score of 4.105/5, there was no controversy about suspecting Pao before Gambit and it certainly was not a hard call.

Baxcalibur, Sneasler, Urshifu are all oppressing the meta but Kingambit is the one forcing 2-3 dedicated checks on every team, preserved at full HP, and still reverse sweeping anyway. But hey, gambit survived his suspect so we might as well go for these others instead, even if they aren't as oppressive as him.

Insane levels of yap, Baxcalibur was extremely oppressive and got a 4.6 and unanimous quickban and Sneasler managed to be #1 in usage in SCL and made Red Card Mimikyu an actual thing just to sweep with your own sneasler more effectively while having negative defensive utility, and Kingambit does not force 2-3 dedicated checks that have to be at full HP, simply false information.

Ogrepon Hearthflame and Archduraladon are new DLC monsters. There are lots of debates over whether they're stronger than gambit.

This is just wrong, ask literally anybody who plays the tier at a somewhat high level and they'll tell you that obviously they are stronger than gambit. I have also not seen a single argument about kingambit vs ogerpon hearthflame or archaludon and I'm way too active on forums and cords so I'd know if its a common point of discussion.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Kingambit wasn't on the survey because there wasn't much outcry at the time while Chien Pao had a Qualified score of 4.105/5, there was no controversy about suspecting Pao before Gambit and it certainly was not a hard call.



Insane levels of yap, Baxcalibur was extremely oppressive and got a 4.6 and unanimous quickban and Sneasler managed to be #1 in usage in SCL and made Red Card Mimikyu an actual thing just to sweep with your own sneasler more effectively while having negative defensive utility, and Kingambit does not force 2-3 dedicated checks that have to be at full HP, simply false information.




This is just wrong, ask literally anybody who plays the tier at a somewhat high level and they'll tell you that obviously they are stronger than gambit. I have also not seen a single argument about kingambit vs ogerpon hearthflame or archaludon and I'm way too active on forums and cords so I'd know if its a common point of discussion.

i feel like there might be a conflict of interest here, "supreme overlord"

 

[Bold School]

First of all, from what I see you just contradicted yourself. Second of all, isn't the glue Mon or even ?. Third of all, why are you trying to say cloak is good. It's not. The mons that you allegedly say can run cloak viably all prefer other items(boots due to hazard stack, helmet for chip and lefties for free passive recovery). Also can you give replays of these alleged cloak abusers in action WITHOUT their preferred items cos I would like to see it action

... This was an example where Great Tusk was your Ground type. I really don't get why this part is so difficult for some people to wrap their heads around. The other OU Ground types don't remove hazards besides Iron Treads. They may be glue mons, but they don't do what Tusk does or fit on a team the same way. Tusk cannot safely switch into Hatt, so this is an area where cloak could help is my point. The entire time I have been giving various examples, some within teambuilding concepts. This is one you cannot dismiss easily since it isn't uncommon for teams to use Tusk as their Ground type.

Yes, other Ground types exist and some can also count as glue mons. What one(s) you use entirely depends on what you are trying to do with your team. I use Gliscor quite a bit myself. Guess what? A lot of Gliscor sets, besides SD, also don't appreciate Hatt since it counters hazards and Toxic while also being able to carry Psychic Noise. The more passive sets can't do anything to it and potentially just let Hatt setup CM for free.

I also don't really see where the contradiction is in that section. You weren't very clear if it wasn't something I already adressed.

What the actual fuck are you yapping about

Between this and the above section, uour general level of confusion suggests you might want to reread the entire conversation to get a better idea of it. But I will try to explain anyways.

This bit is about the levels of comprehension around the nuances of the item. Although I find Moyashi to generally be quite well informed, it is my belief based on their words in this case that they seem to only have a surface level understanding of the item. They have repeatedly disputed this over the course of our argument.

Moyashi kept saying that they fully understand everything about cloak, but here they also said that there was no need to know beyond what we already know. This seems to be an admission that they deem the stuff below the surface level to be unimportant, and therefore, likely don't actually know. That's what this section was about.

If you demonstrated proper use then where are some replays cos I wanna see an item that's more mid than any item to be used and to solve an issue that was practically nonexistant

Do you actually want to see replays or are you just being flippant? The nonexistant issue quip makes me think you are being sarcastic more than actually looking to see a replay of cloak being issue. Like what do you actually even want to see?

Currently, all my accounts have either tanked in ladder or unregistered since I have been testing a lot of niche concepts recently. In order to fulfill this properly, I would have to take a registered one and climb the latter back to something reasonable. It's not undoable. But I also don't really feel like putting in the time right now just to appease you. I want to do the things I want to do. Maybe I'll get some by circumstance, but I sure won't rush to do it.

I am also not the only person on here who has said cloak is useful to them recently. There have been at least a few others who have said so. It's fine if you disagree with that, I guess, but I don't understand why it's so difficult for certain people to at least accept that others might actually find the item useful.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Tusk cannot safely switch into Hatt, so this is an area where cloak could help is my point.

wait, what? how does cloak help with that? tusk's immune to nuzzle, doesn't care about the spa drop from mystical fire, and doesn't have recovery to be psychic noised away. i'm not exactly not on your side, even though you've made some pretty wack points, but what conceivable application does cloak have regarding the tusk/hatt matchup specifically?

 

[ShizuOsaka]

wait, what? how does cloak help with that? tusk's immune to nuzzle, doesn't care about the spa drop from mystical fire, and doesn't have recovery to be psychic noised away. i'm not exactly not on your side, even though you've made some pretty wack points, but what conceivable application does cloak have regarding the tusk/hatt matchup specifically?

I thought Tusk has never been a good Hatt switch in? Like Noise also takes out a chunk of damage against you?

 

[Bold School]

wait, what? how does cloak help with that? tusk's immune to nuzzle, doesn't care about the spa drop from mystical fire, and doesn't have recovery to be psychic noised away. i'm not exactly not on your side, even though you've made some pretty wack points, but what conceivable application does cloak have regarding the tusk/hatt matchup specifically?

This wasn't about Tusk using cloak. It was about something else on Tusk's team using cloak. Tusk has low special defense and a weakness to both Psychic and Fairy. You wouldn't want to risk a switch Tusk into Hatt just to absorb Nuzzle because of this. I said that multiple times before. Was I somehow unclear on that? Because I don't really think I was. Yet you are now the third person to apparently not understand this point. I don't know where the disconnect is. I felt I as pretty clear when I initially brought it up.

I also don't get why people would firstly assume that I'm putting cloak on a Ground type to block something it is already immune to. The point should be you can use cloak to block Nuzzle's effect even if the mon's typing isn't naturally immune to it. You know, because a team that is using Tusk as its Ground type might not have another natural absorber for Nuzzle?

 

[Alternator]

i feel like there might be a conflict of interest here, "supreme overlord"

I just want to note that when I gave this a HaHa, it's the amused kind and not the mocking kind.

RE: Kingambit, this might be the grognard in me talking, but it feels like a less extreme version of Gen 2 Snorlax. Unlike Snorlax, Kingambit isn't far and away the best mon (though it's very much in the discussion for the best), but it serves as a powerful centralizing force with a number of different options (sets for Snorlax, fourth move and tera choice for Kingambit), and determining which set is a major part of playing the tier. Also, both are defensively stout (Snorlax through massive special bulk, Kingambit with a great typing and bulk) and blanket check a large chunk of the metagame, thus serving a major defensive role.

Both Gen 2 Snorlax and Gen 9 Kingambit are arguably broken, but even while centralizing the metagame significantly, neither is impossible to deal with and - crucially - there is a wide variety of counterplay available that fits on all styles. That last is the difference between unhealthy centralization and acceptable centralization; after all, something is going to be the top dog around which the tier revolves, so why not a big fatty with plenty of options?

 

[Morkal]

I just want to note that when I gave this a HaHa, it's the amused kind and not the mocking kind.

RE: Kingambit, this might be the grognard in me talking, but it feels like a less extreme version of Gen 2 Snorlax. Unlike Snorlax, Kingambit isn't far and away the best mon (though it's very much in the discussion for the best), but it serves as a powerful centralizing force with a number of different options (sets for Snorlax, fourth move and tera choice for Kingambit), and determining which set is a major part of playing the tier. Also, both are defensively stout (Snorlax through massive special bulk, Kingambit with a great typing and bulk) and blanket check a large chunk of the metagame, thus serving a major defensive role.

Both Gen 2 Snorlax and Gen 9 Kingambit are arguably broken, but even while centralizing the metagame significantly, neither is impossible to deal with and - crucially - there is a wide variety of counterplay available that fits on all styles. That last is the difference between unhealthy centralization and acceptable centralization; after all, something is going to be the top dog around which the tier revolves, so why not a big fatty with plenty of options?

Alternator wonderfully described here why I feel Kingambit is fine - the Gen 2 Snorlax analogy aptly fits Kingambit; both are centralizing forces but they have readily available and accessible counterplay that don't require dipping to niche options. They're both one-trick ponies, but the trick is so good that people just find different ways to utilize that trick (like Kingambit's Tera selection along with running Bulk or Speed variants and Gen 2 Snorlax swapping its fourth move depending on team structure and meta trends). Taking Snorlax out of GSC OU would do more harm than good to the metagame there, and I feel that taking Kingambit out of SV DLC2 OU would do more harm than good here as well.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I just want to note that when I gave this a HaHa, it's the amused kind and not the mocking kind.

thanks, it's supposed to be an amusing post and not a mocking one so i'm glad it didn't come off that way

Both Gen 2 Snorlax and Gen 9 Kingambit are arguably broken, but even while centralizing the metagame significantly, neither is impossible to deal with and - crucially - there is a wide variety of counterplay available that fits on all styles. That last is the difference between unhealthy centralization and acceptable centralization; after all, something is going to be the top dog around which the tier revolves, so why not a big fatty with plenty of options?

i don't think gen 2 snorlax would be tolerated in the modern tiering ecosystem. things in oldgens get away with a lot of shit because oldgen playerbases are largely comprised of people who like their metas to stay the way they are, and gens 1 and 2 in particular have a very limited selection of mons so any action will leave a bunch of mons with literally no viable answers. also, sure, maybe the tier does have to centralize around something, but it should centralize around something healthy instead. zamazenta maybe, or tusk, or perhaps even lando-t again. something that actually adds something to gameplay instead of actively detracting from it

 

[ShizuOsaka]

thanks, it's supposed to be an amusing post and not a mocking one so i'm glad it didn't come off that way

i don't think gen 2 snorlax would be tolerated in the modern tiering ecosystem. things in oldgens get away with a lot of shit because oldgen playerbases are largely comprised of people who like their metas to stay the way they are, and gens 1 and 2 in particular have a very limited selection of mons so any action will leave a bunch of mons with literally no viable answers. also, sure, maybe the tier does have to centralize around something, but it should centralize around something healthy instead. zamazenta maybe, or tusk, or perhaps even lando-t again. something that actually adds something to gameplay instead of actively detracting from it

I don't quite think so. It's just like Landorus-T in previous gens.
Is it good? Yes. Is it centralizing? Even yes. But still, it has plenty of counter plays and you don't need to jump about hoops and loops trying to scount its set to devise counterplans.
Gambito is kind of... the same in this metagame. Maybe in a slower metagame that it doesn't have to decide between Sucker Punch or Kowtow, it might be banned instantly, but since in this meta, everyone and their dog can outspeed it (even for defensive walls), it just feels tame in comparison.

 

[Magcargo]

Gambit isn't the centralizing force it once was IMO. There are a lot of structures where I'd argue it isn't the best option to check things due to its proclivity to getting cheesed by various encore mons, unexpected coverage, etc. Despite being "decent" into a lot of Pokemon like Gholdengo, Dragapult, Latios, Meowscarada, Weavile, and Darkrai, it isn't entirely safe into a lot of these Pokemon since they can very easily slap on fighting coverage or something like Will-O-Wisp to completely neutralize it. Even slow defensive Pokemon have tactics to mildly annoy it, such as Primarina with Encore, Skeledirge with a faster Wisp, Corviknight / Skarm, with Helmet chip + BP, etc. In a lot of cases while Kingambit can be used to "check" something in the midgame such as Gouging Fire or Kyurem, it isn't always going to be the most reliable between Sucker punch and its low speed being exploitable, hence why I don't think its centralizing effect is really comparable to Snorlax. I believe Snorlax was more reliable at blanket checking more of the metagame, wheras it often feels like Kingambit needs to give up an arm and a leg to be the reliable "blanket check" mon we want it to be.

I think Kingambit is still a decent Pokemon on Balanced teams, but its hardly indispecible and there will be a lot of situations where it can be forgoed for a different Pokemon like Darkrai or Weavile and the team will be generally fine. Its far better on Bulky offense and HO teams but even there it is mildly replacable with Pokemon that can provide similar-ish utility, though no Pokemon will really be the full package like Kingambit is.

The fundamental reason Kingambit will always be at the top is the nightmare scenario of a late-game Kingambit that will able to claw a win out even against all odds. End-game Tera Kingambit with its item in-tact may as well be a completely different Pokemon from mid-game Kingambit since it is able to convert its general qualities that make it a passable "blanket check" to a nightmarish mon to stop in an endgame. That's when its trading ability becomes truly ludricous rather than being a slight net positive. I do think this is where Kingambit's defensive typing becomes a bit of a double edged sword, as its also temping to use it to check a lot of Pokemon like Weavile, Gholdengo, and Galarian Slowking, where it can easily be lured and crippled by various tech such as Low Kick, Focus Blast, Trick, etc. Kingambit's ability to handle most variants of these Pokemon is certainly a boon, but its also a limitation, I'd argue, as that forces it in earlier in the match and get chipped and potentially consume its item in the process, which makes the worst case scenario more plausible to avoid.

Personally I'm pretty chill with Gambit and think it adds a lot to the tier between the general defensive utility and priority but I don't think it really has that "Snorlax" effect - at least not exactly. I think a closer mon to that effect is Zamazenta, which has a bit more flexibility in its blanket checking abilities due to its speed.

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

i feel like is quite decently balanced despite everything(supreme overlord, insane set diversity with items and tera) due to its multiple checks it can never break past(, , , ) but i agree that it is quite centralising since you have to keep your gambit check alive and even then it could be a set that checks your check and some gambits run low kick or tera blast fairy instead of kowtow and sucker combined with its bulk makes for a scary mon but not banworthy imo