Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[BobbyHill]

IMO I think part of why theres less people playing SV OU compared to last gens is that :

1. SV was a very undercooked game that came under fire a lot for being unfinished (I am not getting into my thoughts on SV as a game as that could legit be its own post somewhere else)
2. People are playing other formats, be it mainstays like VGC or low tiers, or new ones popping up
3. Many older fans have reached a point where they are ok with skipping a gen of comp, and are fine going back to their old reliable favorite tier
4. People who just dont like the tier
5. People who would've played it but were told not to because their buddies say its just a powercrept HO filled wasteland

As someone who just took a 4 month break, I think power creep is a legitimate complaint. It limits a lot of playstyles. I doubt a significant amount of people are avoiding the meta because their friends are telling them to.
The meta is more offensive and favors (at a high level not like 1600s) players who are better at/enjoy those styles. It becomes kind of cicular as more of those players get reqs (including some quite vocal YouTube grifters) and then less pokemon are banned (this could go the other direction too just how it broke this gen).

l actually think a lot of players conflate issues with Tera and power creep. We’ve had some more balanced metas this gen without Tera being a problem. It’s really now a select few powerful pokemon that either are new to this gen or were let into the tier when they arguably should not have been.

 

[Avira]

Ausma said in between 3.5 and 4.0 so probably like moreso in the 3.8-3.9 range if I had to guess, considering that it was stated it had enough support for action as well, just not as much as gouging fire obviously

Either way both are busted and both should go, let's take care of gouging fire first I guess. Both should definitely go and neither would be missed.

4.5 x (1.00-0.21) = 3.55

There's no way Kyurem was moreso in the 3.8-3.9 range unless Gouging Fire's survey score was in the 4.8-4.9 range. Just face it that Kyurem had an objectively lower score than it did the first time it was suspected. It was right to pass over Kyurem for a suspect at this time given Gouging Fire had so much more support to be suspected.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

There's no way Kyurem was moreso in the 3.8-3.9 range unless Gouging Fire's survey score was in the 4.8-4.9 range.

well it seems unlikely but i genuinely wouldn't count out the possibility of 30 out of the 32 people surveyed ranking gouging fire a 5. it's a small sample size that happens to be really pissed off at this mon. here's hoping that's a reflection of the wider voterbase and we can get mega mega charizard x outta here

 

[solrock the great]

As someone who just took a 4 month break, I think power creep is a legitimate complaint. It limits a lot of playstyles. I doubt a significant amount of people are avoiding the meta because their friends are telling them to.
The meta is more offensive and favors (at a high level not like 1600s) players who are better at/enjoy those styles. It becomes kind of cicular as more of those players get reqs (including some quite vocal YouTube grifters) and then less pokemon are banned (this could go the other direction too just how it broke this gen).

l actually think a lot of players conflate issues with Tera and power creep. We’ve had some more balanced metas this gen without Tera being a problem. It’s really now a select few powerful pokemon that either are new to this gen or were let into the tier when they arguably should not have been.

I definitely see where your coming from, but I was more so thinking of the people who just doompost about SV rather the actual state of the meta, yes it is very limiting, but at times I've felt like people are a tad bit too doom and gloom about it. Also, I definitely agree with the second paragraph, lets just hope a kyurem suspect comes next.

 

[AquiIo]

I sincerely hope we don’t see a kyurem sus, actually. I think Tera Blast is equally unhealthy right now, and has the benefit of nerfing kyurem and reducing its set variety through unbanning Volcarona. I also think a kyu sus next will delay future tiering action, and make it harder to retest kyu if volc is ever unbanned. I would much prefer a Tera Blast sus, so that we can unban Volc and by proxy Kyurem is much less problematic

 

[Finchinator]

surely we aren’t deliberating the next possible suspect one day into the current suspect when we have no clue what the result of it will be or the ripples it will have on the tier

 

[IPF]

Getting reqs wasn't too bad, these were the first SV games I've played since WCoP but things went relatively smoothly. I used the Dondozo team Alhen linked in his post here.

Gouging should be banned, and I don't think the vote will be particularly close this time either. Big hitter, bulky, sets up on a lot of the popular mons, definitely should get the boot. I don't think anything I say in this post will be new to anyone, so I'm just gonna ramble a little.

Honestly, I really dislike the state of SV OU at the moment. There are definitely positives, this gen requires more active playing and testing on the ladder than any before it, because of how volatile the meta is and how often people come up with new techs, checks, and counters. The problem I have is how many mons just feel silly/frustrating/downright uncompetitive that we put up with because this brilliant metagame is an exhale away from the house of cards tumbling down.

Kyurem is just as irritating and difficult to play against as last gen, SubTect is really good, and once people start prepping for it more I assume DD/Mixed sets will get more usage again. Ogerpon feels impossible to switch in to at times. Gholdengo can 6-0 fat teams on its own. Iron Moth is a couple 50/50s away from cleaning up the game. Garganacl can feel like the most unkillable mon in existence with the right Tera in a matchup. Gliscor is always, always a giant pain in the ass. Darkrai is incredibly strong in the fat matchup, but I will admit it does not feel as absurd to play against as it did a few months ago. Kingambit is a travesty to the game we play and in my opinion undermines any and all decision making and gameplanning you do during a game.

Frankly, I think Tera should be banned, but that ship has sailed and we missed that opportunity during its suspect test (which I believe was unfair to pro ban due to the options presented). The next best option I think is to ban Tera Blast, like what Storm Zone said in his post here, but to be honest that feels like slapping a band-aid on a gunshot wound. We can ban Gouging, but I don't think its presence is the problem with SV. I expect Kyurem to be next on the chopping block, and I'd like Gliscor to be looked at as well, but most of all I truly believe Kingambit is the most nonsensical mon we've kept in OU for this long. I understand my views may be a bit cynical, but I've always enjoyed playing CG OU, and the game to game consistency just feels like its lacking at the moment.

 

[Finchinator]

Frankly, I think Tera should be banned, but that ship has sailed and we missed that opportunity during its suspect test (which I believe was unfair to pro ban due to the options presented)

I don’t think this tracks as even during that suspect well under a third of the playerbase wanted an outright ban as a priority. In fact, we have never had a point where anywhere close to a majority of the playerbase wanted an outright ban of Tera.

To put it bluntly: there was never a point when a suspect test of Tera with the option of “outright ban” would’ve had the result of an outright ban unless a huge shift happened mid-suspect test regardless of the format of the suspect.

The only thing that has been close was Tera Preview during the original suspect test. And sentiment towards that has gone very south since then as people realize this isn’t a solution to the “problem”s people have with the mechanic. It arguably amplifies the variance in a singles metagame even.

With this said, we are open minded towards Tera Blast. It was included on the recent survey of everyone who qualified for OLT, receiving more support than at any point prior. It is possible discussion on this topic continues and action could be taken. We are not set on Kyurem, Tera Blast, or anything else as we don’t have an agenda for the future. We will see how this suspect goes and take it from there with the best intention and an open mind.

 

[solrock the great]

surely we aren’t deliberating the next possible suspect one day into the current suspect when we have no clue what the result of it will be or the ripples it will have on the tier

ngl I really should have thought about the fact we are still in a suspect right now, (never write a post at 5:42 AM in the morn when you got middling sleep last night and woke up at 4ish) but yeah, we definitely need to wait a bit before more action, it's just that there is definitely part of me that's having a hard time being patient about tiering action.

 

[AquiIo]

surely we aren’t deliberating the next possible suspect one day into the current suspect when we have no clue what the result of it will be or the ripples it will have on the tier

what no i would never

(mb, this is a fair point)

 

[JackRG]

listen I've been reading through this and its honestly so frustrating when people try to argue tera isn't broken. Even if you guys wanna keep it in the metagame, its UNQUESTIONABLY broken. Lets say theres a kingambit threatening to sweep. I switch in fully healthy Zamazenta, a pretty hard answer, while it SDs on the switch. I go for body press to force it out, but then it randomly just turns into a ghost type and gets up ANOTHER swords dance. Crunch is hardly threatening it and it beats my zamazenta 1v1. What was I supposed to do, not send it my check? Before people try to argue that it now is weak to dark or whatever, understand this kingambit is now at +4 attack and can ohko everything with sucker punch. Its new weaknesses literally don't matter at that point, I literally just lost the game for sending in my check. In ANY other gen, kingambit would have had to play around zamazenta by forcing enough damage onto it where it can no longer check it (AKA with SKILL), but with tera it just gets to invalidiate something that destroys it 1 on 1. How can you guys argue that is a mechanic we should have in a competitive metagame? Its honestly insane how at the very least we don't have a no tera ladder at this point, when we are almost 2 years into this gen.

 

[SittinGamer]

How can you guys argue that is a mechanic we should have in a competitive metagame?

Well, there was an entire suspect thread as well as a thread made shortly before one of the DLCs, (I forget which), so I would say its quite easy to find how people could argue that Tera isn't inherently uncompetitive.

 

[JackRG]

Well, there was an entire suspect thread as well as a thread made shortly before one of the DLCs, (I forget which), so I would say its quite easy to find how people could argue that Tera isn't inherently uncompetitive.

not only was that a long time ago, and if there are so many arguements for it, why not list some?

 

[Avira]

listen I've been reading through this and its honestly so frustrating when people try to argue tera isn't broken. Even if you guys wanna keep it in the metagame, its UNQUESTIONABLY broken. Lets say theres a kingambit threatening to sweep. I switch in fully healthy Zamazenta, a pretty hard answer, while it SDs on the switch. I go for body press to force it out, but then it randomly just turns into a ghost type and gets up ANOTHER swords dance. Crunch is hardly threatening it and it beats my zamazenta 1v1. What was I supposed to do, not send it my check? Before people try to argue that it now is weak to dark or whatever, understand this kingambit is now at +4 attack and can ohko everything with sucker punch.

If you Body Press right away against Kingambit, you are heavily misplaying. The best first move against Kingambit as Zamazenta is always to use Iron Defense. I hate Tera myself, but your argument is terrible for suggesting you shouldn't lose for making a horrible play.

 

[JackRG]

If you Body Press right away against Kingambit, you are heavily misplaying. The best first move against Kingambit as Zamazenta is always to use Iron Defense. I hate Tera myself, but your argument is terrible for suggesting you shouldn't lose for making a horrible play.

that doesn't change my point, although that would be a better play. Kingambit still now walls zamazenta so iron defense won't help to much

 

[SittinGamer]

not only was that a long time ago, and if there are so many arguements for it, why not list some?

Well, you just said you were reading though this, a thread in which in the past 10 pages people have voiced their opinions as to why Tera isn't broken or uncompetitive. I figured you had perhaps read them already.

From my skimming alone, a select few are:
The opportunity cost and risk reward factor are not so skewed as to prevent counterplay
Tera allows matchups which were instant loses in Team Preview into matches which can be played around
Tera changing your defensive checks creates numerous dynamics in which you have to think ahead about the cost benefit analysis of Tera'ing turn by turn. One such example was a Kyurem going ground, but now being weak to Ice, Grass, and Water priority in a tier with Rillaboom.
Tera rewards active laddering and up to date meta knowledge in a way any past gen has not done to this extent. This is not inherently a positive or negative, but it has been mentioned.
The vast majority of the Pokemon banned from OU this generation would have still been banned even without Terastal as a mechanic, therefore the number of bans is not inherent proof Tera is uncompetitive. Those who would be exemptions would (likely) only be Regileki, Volcarona, and Terapagos.

that doesn't change my point, although that would be a better play. Kingambit still now walls zamazenta so iron defense won't help to much

It does, you played poorly. The play would always be to Iron Defense, and almost all ID Zama are carrying Crunch. You have a super effective move on a mon which commonly runs leftovers and multiple sets contain Roar or Substitute.

 

[JackRG]

Well, you just said you were reading though this, a thread in which in the past 10 pages people have voiced their opinions as to why Tera isn't broken or uncompetitive. I figured you had perhaps read them already.

From my skimming alone, a select few are:
The opportunity cost and risk reward factor are not so skewed as to prevent counterplay
Tera allows matchups which were instant loses in Team Preview into matches which can be played around
Tera changing your defensive checks creates numerous dynamics in which you have to think ahead about the cost benefit analysis of Tera'ing turn by turn. One such example was a Kyurem going ground, but now being weak to Ice, Grass, and Water priority in a tier with Rillaboom.
Tera rewards active laddering and up to date meta knowledge in a way any past gen has not done to this extent. This is not inherently a positive or negative, but it has been mentioned.
The vast majority of the Pokemon banned from OU this generation would have still been banned even without Terastal as a mechanic, therefore the number of bans is not inherent proof Tera is uncompetitive. Those who would be exemptions would (likely) only be Regileki, Volcarona, and Terapagos.


It does, you played poorly. The play would always be to Iron Defense, and almost all ID Zama are carrying Crunch. You have a super effective move on a mon which commonly runs leftovers and multiple sets contain Roar or Substitute.

0 Atk Zamazenta Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ghost Kingambit: 114-136 (33.4 - 39.8%) -- 22.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

also in the kingambit example I literally just said how the opportunity cost doesn't mean shit when it only needs those 2 turns it gets from tera to sweep

 

[SittinGamer]

0 Atk Zamazenta Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ghost Kingambit: 114-136 (33.4 - 39.8%) -- 22.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

also in the kingambit example I literally just said how the opportunity cost doesn't mean shit when it only needs those 2 turns it gets from tera to sweep

You are doing 33% minimum to a mon restoring 6% per turn. You are also still assuming in this scenario you let the Kingambit get to +4, when, at minimum, Zamazenta should ALSO be at +2, +3 DEF if this is the first time you've switched it in. Both Sucker Punch and Kowtow Cleave are not very effective against Zama. You can outplay the Sucker mindgames by using any one of Substitute, Roar, or stacking more IDef boosts. If you do lose to a Sucker Punch, you also can have an easily slottable Encore mon (Dragonite, Ogerpon, Primarina, IVal, etc) force the Gambit out to lose its boosts or drain its Sucker PP.

Your posts act as if you were put in a game losing position through no fault of your own when you listed a poor play and then continued to play poorly to your potential outs. This is not an indication Tera is uncompetitive.

 

[JackRG]

You are doing 33% minimum to a mon restoring 6% per turn. You are also still assuming in this scenario you let the Kingambit get to +4, when, at minimum, Zamazenta should ALSO be at +2, +3 DEF if this is the first time you've switched it in. Both Sucker Punch and Kowtow Cleave are not very effective against Zama. You can outplay the Sucker mindgames by using any one of Substitute, Roar, or stacking more IDef boosts. If you do lose to a Sucker Punch, you also can have an easily slottable Encore mon (Dragonite, Ogerpon, Primarina, IVal, etc) force the Gambit out to lose its boosts or drain its Sucker PP.

Your posts act as if you were put in a game losing position through no fault of your own when you listed a poor play and then continued to play poorly to your potential outs. This is not an indication Tera is uncompetitive.

+4 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Ghost Kingambit Iron Head vs. +4 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 181-214 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery kingambits iron head is doing more damage then zama's crunch here, btw

 

[SittinGamer]

+4 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Ghost Kingambit Iron Head vs. +4 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 181-214 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery kingambits iron head is doing more damage then zama's crunch here, btw

This is not the own you think it is.

Edit: I don't want to be a just cheeky one liner, so the point I'm making is that this is more of a scathing indictment of Kingambit, not Tera. What you are laying out is basically the same tired "Kingambit gets to -5 and reverse sweeps" discussions we've had for years, and the answer is the same. Kingambit is like, the singular most definitive wincon in the generation, if you have your team in a situation where you can just get memed by Kingambit coming in last at full HP with a Tera, your team was not well equipped to handle it in the current metagame regardless, or you did not make the proper gameflow to force Gambit to take chip throughout a match.

 

[Callmeyeshua]

+4 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Ghost Kingambit Iron Head vs. +4 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 181-214 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery kingambits iron head is doing more damage then zama's crunch here, btw

You should have saved your tera for Zama to further counter the thing you are supposed to counter.

 

[JackRG]

This is not the own you think it is.

I'll give you another example. I got my choice band espeed dnite and I use it to revenge kill a roaring moon. It pulls out a random tera ghost and gets another free dragon dance. What else was I supposed to do?

 

[Avira]

The vast majority of the Pokemon banned from OU this generation would have still been banned even without Terastal as a mechanic, therefore the number of bans is not inherent proof Tera is uncompetitive. Those who would be exemptions would (likely) only be Regileki, Volcarona, and Terapagos.

You forgot about Espathra, which was only banned 'cause Tera Blast let it break through Steel-type Pokemon. A lot of Palafin's brokenness was also derived from Tera, and it would be so much easier to deal with without the generational mechanic, so I can see the case for it being okay in OU with Tera banned. I agree with your point overall though that the vast majority of the mons banned from OU would be broken regardless of Tera.

 

[Pokedom10]

I'll give you another example. I got my choice band espeed dnite and I use it to revenge kill a roaring moon. It pulls out a random tera ghost and gets another free dragon dance. What else was I supposed to do?

Lets play along! You, the reader, have been put in this exact same scenario. What would you do?

Would you,
A. Switch out
B. Click a different move
C. Save your Tera to deal with Moon with a different mon
D. Lose the game, then log onto the Smogon Forums and complain about your own shortcomings as a player

I dunno guys... hard choice.

 

[PastaMechKaku]

I've said it before, but I think the best way to describe Tera is that it is akin to Stealth Rock (or at least before Boots or even the defog buff). Both of them warp the game in ways many deem unpalatable as they can push things over the top (primarily offensive guys), gate what can be viable and have a host of other sublte and nasty effects on the game. However, neither of these are inherently uncompetitive as at their core; they are flexible, powerful tools that behave consistently and engender tougher decisionmaking in and out of battle to either fully make use of them or figure out how to make them less effective for your opponent based on team they have. It's not a one-to-one comparison given the nature of Tera vs rocks, but both are deeply controversial to point people clamored for them to be banned, yet both remain as in the end, the majority of people felt they had a place in the metagame, even if the end result is greasier than some would like.