Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Avira said:
You forgot about Espathra, which was only banned 'cause Tera Blast let it break through Steel-type Pokemon. A lot of Palafin's brokenness was also derived from Tera, and it would be so much easier to deal with without the generational mechanic. I agree with your point overall though that the vast majority of the mons banned from OU would be broken regardless of Tera.
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I knew I was forgetting someone... I feel Espathra would still be pretty stupid, but I'll give you that one. Palafin I'm less sure of, as it isn't even the most fringe position to argue it would be okay in *this* Tera metagame. I'm not sure I agree with the notion, but I also don't entirely agree Tera being a factor to be that noteworthy, as a generational mechanic which affects every mon will naturally lean top heavy.

JackRG said:
I'll give you another example. I got my choice band espeed dnite and I use it to revenge kill a roaring moon. It pulls out a random tera ghost and gets another free dragon dance. What else was I supposed to do?
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Well, for one, losing Multiscale's insane defensive utility is precisely part of the opportunity cost of running Band for the immediate damage. A Boots nite could likely live any of Moon's +1 options with Multiscale in tact, and you can now either use that turn to deal safer midground chip, or as was ignored before, Encore, a move meant to handle the bevy of setup sweepers. This Roaring Moon is also now Ghost type, leaving it open to an immediate revenge kill from our royal friend.

Completely contextless scenarios against a setup sweeper are not as to your point as you'd like them to be, as there is more counterplay to these threats than you imagine.
 
Pokedom10 said:
Lets play along! You, the reader, have been put in this exact same scenario. What would you do?

Would you,
A. Switch out
B. Click a different move
C. Save your Tera to deal with Moon with a different mon
D. Lose the game, then log onto the Smogon Forums and complain about your own shortcomings as a player

I dunno guys... hard choice.
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A. Switching out would give it another free turn of setup, genius
B. it outruns and KOs me
C. Who said I haven't used my own tera yet?
D. Yeah bro, me clicking a priority move to stop a sweeper is SUCH a terrible play! Its almost like that is an obvious play in LITERALLY any other gen!
 
Pokedom10 said:
Lets play along! You, the reader, have been put in this exact same scenario. What would you do?

Would you,
A. Switch out (so now RM is boostered and plus 1. It can also just click buttons at this point on whats coming in. Not a good situation but doable depending on if you have a dondozo, helmet mon or something)
B. Click a different move (D-Nite is banded, locked into e speed in this situation)
C. Save your Tera to deal with Moon with a different mon (Probably the most likely outcome here for most people, though giving RM two free turns is usually game ending for a lot of builds.)
D. Lose the game, then log onto the Smogon Forums and complain about your own shortcomings as a player (everyone talks to each other so spicy on here. Offensive tera is very volatile and anyone can lose to someone having a rogue tera/blast on a powerful sweeper.)

I dunno guys... hard choice.
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comments in bold.
 
Plays are only as good as the context of the metagame which surrounds them. Tera Ghost is not particularly uncommon tech to specifically counter Espeed Nite. Gen 9 is not any other gen, but a play which was optimal no longer being optimal is not sheer proof Tera is uncompetitive. But yes, to name other outs to this +2 Roaring Moon.

Dozo
Helmet (yes this will require sacks, likely)
A defensive tera after Nite loses to force valuable chip, status, or even a KO.
The most common wincon in the tier
 
You can't ask "what is my counterplay", be offered counterplay, and then go "not that one."

On second thought. This is not the first time in this conversation alone you've ignored multiple of my points in favor of "nuh-uh" ing one at most from each post, so I don't think you're arguing in good faith at this point if you ever were.
 
Helmet isn't even thatttt great of an answer because they will just knock it off and the things that run it aren't exactly threatening plus 2 moon that is ghost. Dondozo usually runs bpress/avalanche/water move and its doing middling chip at best. It can force it out though.
 
As a Tera Ghost Kingambit Enjoyer, I enjoy the interaction against Zamazenta. To even get to a position where you have access to that win path, one must exercise good Tera Management for the rest of the match, meaning other strong Pokémon such as Gouging fire and Roaring Moon can't use Tera (which is doubly tempting given that these Pokémon can lure and break some of KG's checks). Even with Tera, it takes some precise movemrnt to win with KG against Zamaxenta since Crunch does a lot of damage - I typically like softening Zamazenta with Lando-T, making it easier for KG to break + setup against Zamazenta.

For every game I've cheesed a sweep with Kingambit in the endgame, there has been a game where it winds up dying and accomplishing nothing because I used my Tera on Roaring moon or Gouging Fire earlier in the game. For gambit to be at its strongest, you need to play 5v6 and not expend Tera fir the rest of the game.
 
Not to have a dig at contributors for this page, but the resource Tera Type Index sums up my biggest issue with this gen. This page is just complete noise. Looking at it, you would have no idea why mons have most of those tera types.

Imagine being in gen 11 and prepping for a gen 9 game and trying to come up with a consistent strategy of dealing with a mon that can have 7 different variations...

Like how tf are you supposed to prep for something like this (and then it popping off into a type that isn't even listed...)
1725045698529.png
 
senorlopez said:
Not to have a dig at contributors for this page, but the resource Tera Type Index sums up my biggest issue with this gen. This page is just complete noise. Looking at it, you would have no idea why mons have most of those tera types.

Imagine being in gen 11 and prepping for a gen 9 game and trying to come up with a consistent strategy of dealing with a mon that can have 7 different variations...

Like how tf are you supposed to prep for something this
View attachment 664705
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ngl, the worst part of the tera index imo is the fact that it hasn't been updated in forever, since it still has :volcarona:
 
JackRG said:
ye I can't exactly use skarmory or corviknight since it would be immune to body press lol
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Generally the best way to deal with Roaring moon is to switch in a "hard" counter on turn 1, something that can handle it even at plus 1. Now if it has some zany tera or tech to beat that unless you are playing hard stall you probably lost but thats just gen 9. I personally think its the least enjoyable gen ever but still play out of habit. I've hit 2k and stuff in previous gens and just can't be bothered to grind the necessary games and knowledge to replicate that this time. Tera is a very very terrible mechanic and I'll stand on that. Your example is just a long line of what ifs that end games on a whim and then the counter play is always some fairly specific shit that can and will also fail depending on the actual set. Set up sweepers have never been this strong.

Even in the past for prime offensive threats if you had a decent counter left you could at least be like I "shouldn't" lose to that mon. Now not so much.
 
JackRG said:
you are totally missing the point. Dondozo doesn't fit on most teams and therefore is generally not avaliable counterplay
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One of the most heralded teams of current Balance from CTC features Dozo, and it ranks B+ on the viability rankings. You asked what you are supposed to do. I gave you multiple options. You have also ignored the mention of Encore two times thus far, despite being readily available counterplay in common Overused threats. In case you did not read them before, some include Primarina, Ogerpon, Iron Valiant, and Dragonite, among other, fringer picks which have risen in viability, such as Tinkaton.

I will say for one last time before leaving the conversation that contextless situations against a setup sweeper that has Tera in the bag are not as to your point as you would like them to be, and do not prove Tera is inherently uncompetitive. These situations would only come about from a number of turn by turn decisions, and the situations you've listed STILL are not completely unplayable losses.

senorlopez said:
Like how tf are you supposed to prep for something this
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Encore or phasing, to name two completely viable options in which the Gambit's Tera have absolutely zero impact.
 
SittinGamer said:
One of the most heralded teams of current Balance from CTC features Dozo, and it ranks B+ on the viability rankings. You asked what you are supposed to do. I gave you multiple options. You have also ignored the mention of Encore two times thus far, despite being readily available counterplay in common Overused threats. In case you did not read them before, some include Primarina, Ogerpon, Iron Valiant, and Dragonite, among other, fringer picks which have risen in viability, such as Tinkaton.

I will say for one last time before leaving the conversation that contextless situations against a setup sweeper that has Tera in the bag are not as to your point as you would like them to be, and do not prove Tera is inherently uncompetitive. These situations would only come about from a number of turn by turn decisions, and the situations you've listed STILL are not completely unplayable losses.


Encore or phasing, to name two completely viable options in which the Gambit's Tera have absolutely zero impact.
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Literally all of these encore users are both slower and threatened by roaring moon LMAO

and great, dondozo fits on some good teams, but not on all. also idk if you can count, but dondozo is only 1 option.
 
SittinGamer said:
One of the most heralded teams of current Balance from CTC features Dozo, and it ranks B+ on the viability rankings. You asked what you are supposed to do. I gave you multiple options. You have also ignored the mention of Encore two times thus far, despite being readily available counterplay in common Overused threats. In case you did not read them before, some include Primarina, Ogerpon, Iron Valiant, and Dragonite, among other, fringer picks which have risen in viability, such as Tinkaton.

I will say for one last time before leaving the conversation that contextless situations against a setup sweeper that has Tera in the bag are not as to your point as you would like them to be, and do not prove Tera is inherently uncompetitive. These situations would only come about from a number of turn by turn decisions, and the situations you've listed STILL are not completely unplayable losses.


Encore or phasing, to name two completely viable options in which the Gambit's Tera have absolutely zero impact.
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Which of those pokemon are winning 1v1 if Gambit just decides to attack whats in front of it and not set up? Tera Dark gambit still beats Don unless you saved your tera for it. If we're still talking about RM how do you encore it after a DD and its faster. I assumed we are still speaking on if RM gets a free turn to do whatever.
 
JackRG said:
listen I've been reading through this and its honestly so frustrating when people try to argue tera isn't broken. Even if you guys wanna keep it in the metagame, its UNQUESTIONABLY broken. Lets say theres a kingambit threatening to sweep. I switch in fully healthy Zamazenta, a pretty hard answer, while it SDs on the switch. I go for body press to force it out, but then it randomly just turns into a ghost type and gets up ANOTHER swords dance. Crunch is hardly threatening it and it beats my zamazenta 1v1. What was I supposed to do, not send it my check? Before people try to argue that it now is weak to dark or whatever, understand this kingambit is now at +4 attack and can ohko everything with sucker punch. Its new weaknesses literally don't matter at that point, I literally just lost the game for sending in my check. In ANY other gen, kingambit would have had to play around zamazenta by forcing enough damage onto it where it can no longer check it (AKA with SKILL), but with tera it just gets to invalidiate something that destroys it 1 on 1. How can you guys argue that is a mechanic we should have in a competitive metagame? Its honestly insane how at the very least we don't have a no tera ladder at this point, when we are almost 2 years into this gen.
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"why can't you idiots see that tera is clearly broken because when i play like ass against it i lose. now let me proceed to double and triple post multiple times to prove how smart i am"
 
JackRG said:
have you read anything in this thread? We've listed countless examples but stubborn people like you refuse to listen
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because, with all due respect, your examples are piss. most of the "ackschually if x mon goes y tera i just lose in this scenario i dreamed up" posts fall into one of three traps: they assume poor positioning or poor building, they miss a really obvious play they could use to get out of the scenario or prevent it from ever happening, or they use an example involving a mon that really just shouldn't be here in the first place. your scenarios are checking all three boxes at the same time
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
because your examples are piss. most of the "ackschually if x mon goes y tera i just lose in this scenario i dreamed up" posts fall into one of three traps: they assume poor positioning or poor building, they miss a really obvious play they could use to get out of the scenario or prevent it from ever happening, or they use an example involving a mon that really just shouldn't be here in the first place. your scenarios are checking all three boxes at the same time
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I would agree but I had a very similar scenario happen recently where my banded nite was in position to clean up. click Espeed, they tera ghost. I forgot what mon it was off the top of my head but it was some shit that doesn't usually run that. espeed wiffs, dnite dies. don't have the power to push through as I was setting up that endgame to be able to priority through their remaining team.

Now, this is a rarity and a one off to be sure but that doesn't make it less cheesy to experience. I know thats the generation and you just have to deal with it, and I do when I play but it never feels good to set up a situation and it goes to shit immediately over a rogue tera/blast. Now sometimes you can recover but if its mid/late game that timely shock tera is liable to win the game if it gives a free turn or outright kills a threat you weren't expecting to die. I think a lot of the general issues with the gen would be resolved with at the least a tera preview so you don't have to account for 6 different sets on shit like gouging or kyrurem
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
because, with all due respect, your examples are piss. most of the "ackschually if x mon goes y tera i just lose in this scenario i dreamed up" posts fall into one of three traps: they assume poor positioning or poor building, they miss a really obvious play they could use to get out of the scenario or prevent it from ever happening, or they use an example involving a mon that really just shouldn't be here in the first place. your scenarios are checking all three boxes at the same time
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can you give any examples?
 
I think playing the tier you have to accept and plan around probability of certain Tera types lol. You can say "How am I supposed to guess if its Tera Flying or Fairy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" if the team has more than one flying type already its likely not flying. Gambit teams still have to build it Tera type around them, and as such if its looking like a late game condition expect Fire or similar. If its being treated as a repeated Switch In expect flying or fairy, etc.

I hate Gambit as much as the next person, but you can easily sus out a vague feel for what Tera Types something like Gambit will use. I say this as someone with only hate in her heart for the piece of shit. When all 6 Mons are up Tera Types can be hard to sus out, but as mon go down you can start to imagine "the Bolt likely has Fairy or Bug to deal with Ground/Fighting". Yes, there will be matches with nonsense tera types or uses but thats no different from being RNG haxed at that point. Just queue next and let it go.
 
Rekka's Backend said:
I think playing the tier you have to accept and plan around probability of certain Tera types lol. You can say "How am I supposed to guess if its Tera Flying or Fairy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" if the team has more than one flying type already its likely not flying. Gambit teams still have to build it Tera type around them, and as such if its looking like a late game condition expect Fire or similar. If its being treated as a repeated Switch In expect flying or fairy, etc.

I hate Gambit as much as the next person, but you can easily sus out a vague feel for what Tera Types something like Gambit will use. I say this as someone with only hate in her heart for the piece of shit. When all 6 Mons are up Tera Types can be hard to sus out, but as mon go down you can start to imagine "the Bolt likely has Fairy or Bug to deal with Ground/Fighting". Yes, there will be matches with nonsense tera types or uses but thats no different from being RNG haxed at that point. Just queue next and let it go.
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how is that the same thing as hax lol. also gambit is perfectly balanced, it has a exploitable typing. The issue is that it can change it lol. Also on paper you can guess the tera type, but in practice so you really can't dude
 
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