Unpopular opinions

[Samtendo09]

I rarely like fanmade buffs to individual Pokemon. I like being able to rely on the instincts I've developed as a longtime Pokemon player and it's really jarring when a opponent's Pokemon has way more bulk or power than I'm expecting because it got some absurd stat buff. I don't think I should have to study a changelog before playing your fangame/romhack! Plus, a Pokemon's obvious flaws are often part of why I like it in the first place. If it gets a Dragon or Fairy typing slapped onto it with a 50-point stat buff, a crazy ability, and a bunch of new moves that don't really fit its design or flavour, it becomes a fundamentally different Pokemon to me.

Especially if the buff(s) were given to a Pokémon is already considered as good on it’s own and doesn’t have a counterpart that vastly overshadow it. At this point, any numerous buffs beyond a boost to one stat is better off as a new evolution - if the Pokémon is single or second staged - or a new form akin to Mega Evolution or even regional form. That way you don’t have to worry about, for example, Ledian suddenly hitting hard on the physical side… Because it just happen to have a new fan evolution with a big boost to Attack instead, so that way, the Pokémon is directly buffed without changing it’s own core identity.

Inversively, I rarely like fanmade nerfs to individual Pokémon due to either being arbitrary, or just doesn’t do enough to prevent it from being so obnoxious or overpowered to fight against without deliberately gimping the movepools used by the NPCs. It’s fine to leave a non-legendary Pokémon a cut above the rest, as long as both the player and NPCs have access to it, but that’s when it get to the point not having that Pokémon presents a massive disadvantage in both in-game (if frequently used by lategame NPCs or when used as a raid boss) and / or PvP that it becomes a serious issue. I have yet to see a fangame that grants a sensible nerf to the most blatantly overpowered standard and Legendary-level Pokémon.

It’s even worse if fangames with Fakémons ended up doing a power creep on their own with obnoxiously overpowered newcomers instead of taking the issue seriously, or did the opposite and grant too many duds that feel unhelpful to use unless it’s an BW-styled Pokémon (though that might expose their weaknesses even more), so it goes to show that fans doesn’t always know better than the official devs.

 

[Samtendo09]

Pardon the double posting, but there’s no new replies since Sunday, so I’ll give a big one.

I, unlike many, don’t think a Pokédex consisting of only new Pokémon would work, especially with Dexit or pseudo-Dexit into consideration, unless such dex is huge with 200-250 (or more) new Pokémon regarding fangames.

It’s not just because of personal preference either. While the upsides does make a new-only Dex tempting and can make for an unique experience, there are noticable pitfalls that must be taken into consideration and not use it just for sake of it.

• Quantity over Quality: Unless there’s a Quality Assurance team, a higher amount of new Pokémon also means a risk of a higher amount of repeats, mediocres and stinkers, be it design-wise, battle-wise or worse, both. It can hurt the reception of the dex a lot if the stinkers ended up being used a lot and / or are front and center.
• Making the Region feels overly isolated: The lack of previously introduced Pokémon, until the postgame at best, can make the region come across as overly isolated to the point of discomfort when you think about it. Unless there’s a lore reason like border patrol or that the region is truly far away from the others, I find it hard to believe that a region will only consist of Pokémon not found anywhere in the region. It’s part of why the BW1 Unova Dex is still criticized to this day.
  • Note I haven’t mentioned cross-gen additions like regional forms, Baby mons or cross-gen evos ‘till now, and that’s plainly because an all-new-mons Dex doesn’t allows those by default. Not a bad thing by itself, but can emphasize the overly isolating feeling.
• Type Imbalance: Not just by number, either. It is expected that we get plenty of new Water-types to cover the water routes, but other than that, we can end up having too many new Pokémon of a type, especially if there are some serious overlap. This can lead to poor variety, and can limit a Gym Leader / Elite Four’s options too much unless they aren’t themed around a Pokémon Type. This issue is hardly exclusive to BW Unova, as DP Sinnoh and RBY Kanto are arguably worse, but do take this pitfall into consideration nonetheless.
  • Replayability is one thing that can make a Pokémon game more enjoyable than the other, especially regarding challenges like Monotype. Too little new Pokémon of a type can end up hurting it, especially if even fewer were viable in-game.​
• Forceful Expies: They say that limitations breed creativity. But no amount of limitation justify poor creativity by “forceful expies”, in other words, using too many old Pokémon - not archetype, actual Pokémon - as inspirations to the point of the new ones comes off as a rip-off, or just plainly uninspiring. This criticism does apply for a few Unova mons like the Timburr line (vs Machop line) and, at least back then, the Zorua line (vs Riolu line).
  • Poor Diversity in General: Continuing from the above two. Just because the previous Pokémon aren’t there doesn’t mean the new Pokémon won’t be compared to the previous ones, either favorably or unfavorably. It’s already redundant at this rate with early route Bug-types, single-staged Pikaclone and pseudo-legendary Dragon-type, so if you want your region dex to stand out, avoid the common Pokémon tropes if you can. The Fire-Grass-Water starter concept may stay, unless you thought of a good alternative triangle.
• New Gimmick: If there’s a new gimmick, then it might feels wrong that the old Pokémon won’t be able to use it in-game, worse if they aren’t available at all even in the postgame. If the new gimmick does refers the old Pokémon in a way or another, it may help soften the blows.

Nothing truly stops you to make an all-new-only dex, but do kindly take these pitfalls into consideration if you want to make it an enjoyable and memorable experience.

 

[ant4456]

I want Legends ZA to only give Kalos Pokemon new Megas, and I want the starters to just be the Kalos starters with new Megas.

Kalos was already fucked over. I think it deserves dedicated focus. People talk about power creep all the time but outside of the Megas and the small number of legendaries, of which Diancie was the only one to get a Mega of course, Kalos' dex is dogshit competitively, with so few actually being even remotely good. Most of the best Fairy Types were Megas or old Pokemon given Fairy type.

Kalos deserves to have more of its lines being way better, and really only its lines getting better. Also full on evolutions to 2 stage Kalos Pokemon would also be appreciated.

 

[Yung Dramps]

I want Legends ZA to only give Kalos Pokemon new Megas, and I want the starters to just be the Kalos starters with new Megas.

Kalos was already fucked over. I think it deserves dedicated focus. People talk about power creep all the time but outside of the Megas and the small number of legendaries, of which Diancie was the only one to get a Mega of course, Kalos' dex is dogshit competitively, with so few actually being even remotely good. Most of the best Fairy Types were Megas or old Pokemon given Fairy type.

Kalos deserves to have more of its lines being way better, and really only its lines getting better. Also full on evolutions to 2 stage Kalos Pokemon would also be appreciated.

I hope we get plenty of Kalos megas just as much as anyone else (MEGA MIMI FOR EMMA CMOOOOOON) but I am also Alola Shill Supreme and am therefore humbly requesting at least a share of the love. Mega Mimikyu, mayhaps?

 

[DrrT]

I understand the sentiment since the Kalos starters were replaced on their own game by the Kanto ones which is ridiculous, and the Kalos dex is one of my favourites design wise. But that would kind of feel like a waste if we end up with just "the Megas we should have gotten back in the day". Give some love to newer generations too, things Z could not have done back when it was going to release. Be it Megas or brand new evos, or convergents, I don't mind- personally I can't be hyped about megas anymore when they can be cut any moment and I don't see them as cool as when I was a preteen.

 

[Bakugames]

I'm late to the fangame talk but emerald rogue and pokerogue suffer the same fate of original released roguelikes to me: Why should I play this when I can just crack open slay the spire (and more recently balatro has been added to that criterium). which is pretty unfair but sts truly is the peak and i dont see the point in playing worse, grindier roguelikes just because they got pokemon in them. I tried both and they just feel Fine, which means I engage for a while and then go play slay the spire instead

 

[Ironmage]

I understand the sentiment since the Kalos starters were replaced on their own game by the Kanto ones which is ridiculous, and the Kalos dex is one of my favourites design wise. But that would kind of feel like a waste if we end up with just "the Megas we should have gotten back in the day". Give some love to newer generations too, things Z could not have done back when it was going to release. Be it Megas or brand new evos, or convergents, I don't mind- personally I can't be hyped about megas anymore when they can be cut any moment and I don't see them as cool as when I was a preteen.

At some level, "could be cut at any moment" applies to any mon, there's no way to know from the first appearance whether you've found the next Glameow. I do get how it can be a pretty big damper on hype, especially since defaulting to caution with something that may be attempting to abuse FOMO is generally the right choice. Makes it that much easier to get invested in fan projects (showdown included) that keep the full dex around, I suppose.

 

[ant4456]

I'm late to the fangame talk but emerald rogue and pokerogue suffer the same fate of original released roguelikes to me: Why should I play this when I can just crack open slay the spire (and more recently balatro has been added to that criterium). which is pretty unfair but sts truly is the peak and i dont see the point in playing worse, grindier roguelikes just because they got pokemon in them. I tried both and they just feel Fine, which means I engage for a while and then go play slay the spire instead

because, for me at least, I don't like roguelikes where I don't get the game already. I don't wanna spend 20 hours learning the ins and outs of slay the spire so that then I can have fun trying to play optimally in runs, I want to know how the game works and have the roguelike elements mix it up

to me roguelikes as a formula is a great way to remix a game i already know but having to learn a game i dont know on top of a roguelike frustrates me. because i dont have all the context of everything thats happening i dont feel like i am making informed decisions and i dont know if what im doing even makes sense

 

[Yung Dramps]

I understand the sentiment since the Kalos starters were replaced on their own game by the Kanto ones which is ridiculous, and the Kalos dex is one of my favourites design wise. But that would kind of feel like a waste if we end up with just "the Megas we should have gotten back in the day". Give some love to newer generations too, things Z could not have done back when it was going to release. Be it Megas or brand new evos, or convergents, I don't mind- personally I can't be hyped about megas anymore when they can be cut any moment and I don't see them as cool as when I was a preteen.

I guess that's my big Z-A hot take, that new Mega Evolutions are the things I'm least excited for. I have a vague desire for new ones, I'm sure whatever they produce will be cool especially after an additional decade of experience designing new forms, but I just... care about other stuff more, ya feel? The things that interest me about the Z-A premise are questions like "How do you design a single-city sandbox Pokemon game?", "What sort of story will they tell with Zygarde as the epicenter now that they aren't burdened by the dismal foundation of XY's narrative?", potentially even "Which cast members from the original game will return and how will they be used?". The new Megas will happen when they happen, that's all I can say. The only one I have some vested interest in is the aforementioned Mega Meowstic, a request which has nothing to do with any affection I have for Mega Evolution as a concept or even that particular Pokemon and everything to do with my stupid, immature obsession with a character from a postgame sidequest nobody played

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

The only thing that interests me about Megas is whether or not they'll retcon Mega Gallade's ability to Sharpness.

With that said... there are so many questions about Z-A that I can't imagine why they specifically tied the Kalos Lumiose revisit to the Legends brand.

I don't expect any kind of Isekai, nor as little trainers as PLA had because modern Kalos already has trainers. Megas without PvP would be hilariously sad too. Agile and Strong styles would be bananas in PvP though. And then there's how the whole game is supposed to take place in Lumiose City.

PLA felt so detached from a regular Pokémon game experience that I honestly don't know how exactly a modern Legends game is supposed to be like.

 

[Yung Dramps]

The only thing that interests me about Megas is whether or not they'll retcon Mega Gallade's ability to Sharpness.

With that said... there are so many questions about Z-A that I can't imagine why they specifically tied the Kalos Lumiose revisit to the Legends brand.

I don't expect any kind of Isekai, nor as little trainers as PLA had because modern Kalos already has trainers. Megas without PvP would be hilariously sad too. Agile and Strong styles would be bananas in PvP though. And then there's how the whole game is supposed to take place in Lumiose City.

PLA felt so detached from a regular Pokémon game experience that I honestly don't know how exactly a modern Legends game is supposed to be like.

Tbf, this uncertainty would apply no matter what unless they revealed it with some gameplay. As game 2 of this subseries it's Z-A's job to solidify what the minimum prerequisites to be called a Legends title are. I think it's gonna be a series centered around player movement and action, the catching mechanics being emblematic of this and a recurring mainstay, but there's literally no empirical evidence for this. For all we know the "Lumiose Redevelopment Plan" could be way more central than we think with a huge focus on city builder elements that don't have much of anything to do with Arceus, Legends therefore being literally just the catch-all brand name they're gonna use whenever it's time to make a new game in an old region. I don't think this is remotely likely, but again there's no proof for either conclusion until potentially Pokemon Day 2025.

Speaking of things that aren't likely, don't forget that we don't even know with 100% certainty whether this game is even set in modernity. I mean, I would think the reveal trailer being a sci-fi hologram with synth music featuring NPCs using smart devices and a map with stadiums and modern Pokeball iconography is pretty unambiguously present-coded but there seem to be a lot of people who just insist this isn't the case and that it's all just the futuristic visions of people in the Poke1800s so what do I know?

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Speaking of things that aren't likely, don't forget that we don't even know with 100% certainty whether this game is even set in modernity. I mean, I would think the reveal trailer being a sci-fi hologram with synth music featuring NPCs using smart devices and a map with stadiums and modern Pokeball iconography is pretty unambiguously present-coded but there seem to be a lot of people who just insist this isn't the case and that it's all just the futuristic visions of people in the Poke1800s so what do I know?

Pokémon Fans try to not find patterns in anything (Impossible)

Honestly, that's one of the few things the teaser was very upfront with.

No, we're not going to ancient Kalos. We're not going to see AZ crashout. This game is set in a setting where at least Lumiose is not only well-developed, but its being redesigned and expanded. If anything, that points to Lumiose post-XY.

I can't front, the lack of information really got people in a chokehold for this game. Brutally effective marketing. Since no one knows what to expect besides Megas, speculation has been rampant and it's keeping LZA on people's minds.

 

[Yung Dramps]

I can't front, the lack of information really got people in a chokehold for this game. Brutally effective marketing. Since no one knows what to expect besides Megas, speculation has been rampant and it's keeping LZA on people's minds.

To partially copy-paste something I said on Bulbagarden: An underrated problem of BDSP through SV's super-congested, breakneck release schedule was making the experience of new mainline Pokemon game information feel increasingly dull, rote and routine. Good marketing requires a certain degree of making consumers miss your product, with overexposure being a very real issue. This is a big part of why the MCU post-Endgame has been struggling, they dumped too many projects too fast to the point of oversaturating and devaluing the brand.

 

[Lontra Assassina]

My opinion (which admittedly is only based on vibes) is that the Legends series will be the place for experimental concepts and mechanics so that the devs can flex their creative muscles more without alienating people who want a traditional Pokémon experience. PLA focused a lot on movement for sure (I affectionately call the game a ball pitching simulator), but most of its mechanics were in service to its setting, so I'm not even counting on these to return

 

[ant4456]

My opinion (which admittedly is only based on vibes) is that the Legends series will be the place for experimental concepts and mechanics so that the devs can flex their creative muscles more without alienating people who want a traditional Pokémon experience. PLA focused a lot on movement for sure (I affectionately call the game a ball pitching simulator), but most of its mechanics were in service to its setting, so I'm not even counting on these to return

My actual unpopular take is Legends Arceus was never created as a "Sinnoh" game at all, and that in the last half of development they learned the year the game was coming out would = The Year of Sinnoh, + making it a game that takes place at a time when

There wouldn't be much society

Makes for an EXTREMELY convenient reason to only make one town and environmental areas with not much stuff, and not much level design. The setting the game takes place in is extremely convenient to make for the least dev time in crafting the worlds possible. Also, I don't think it's a coincidence that half the areas in the game literally would make sense in basically any region. I think the game was only envisioned as a Sinnoh game when it came time for testing to transition into an actual game-game, and that Sinnoh was a corporate mandate.

 

[Rapti]

Gameplay aside, what I'm most interested about Z - A is if we'll see poke-romans
Asterix references appreciated

 

[Lontra Assassina]

My actual unpopular take is Legends Arceus was never created as a "Sinnoh" game at all, and that in the last half of development they learned the year the game was coming out would = The Year of Sinnoh, + making it a game that takes place at a time when

There wouldn't be much society

Makes for an EXTREMELY convenient reason to only make one town and environmental areas with not much stuff, and not much level design. The setting the game takes place in is extremely convenient to make for the least dev time in crafting the worlds possible. Also, I don't think it's a coincidence that half the areas in the game literally would make sense in basically any region. I think the game was only envisioned as a Sinnoh game when it came time for testing to transition into an actual game-game, and that Sinnoh was a corporate mandate.

No multi-million dollar game today is gonna get greenlit without a design document and a lenghty pre-production period. We have concept art! We know production started in 2018! There's just zero chance they were just messing around all that time.

Besides, merchandise has to start production way before the game releases, so Pokémon designs are always set in stone in the first year of production

 

[ant4456]

No multi-million dollar game today is gonna get greenlit without a design document and a lenghty pre-production period. We have concept art! We know production started in 2018! There's just zero chance they were just messing around all that time.

Besides, merchandise has to start production way before the game releases, so Pokémon designs are always set in stone in the first year of production

Most of this literally doesn't disprove anything because of the nature of Legends Arceus as a project. Literally the fact that almost none of the Pokemon designs that were new are actually Gen 4 Pokemon or are themed in ways that make sense for Sinnoh specifically means that realistically they could have been made beforehand, outside of the Dialga and Palkia Origin forms.

These smaller projects (and Legends is a smaller project) don't have the same release timeline or structure as the mainline games. Legends Arceus wasn't a big merch maker because it wasn't a new generation and only had a few new designs.

Developers fucking around with their game engine and toying with concepts is like one of the most normal things in game development. If you actually think the gigantic shift from the LGPE team to creating Legends Arceus was basically all just planned in one doc from the start is IMO just very unrealistic for how different the game is, and frankly how abnormal it is for a Pokemon game.

Btw, the "fucking around" is literally pre-production. Pre-production includes work on experimenting with the game engine. This isn't a big AAA operation where most of the work and pipeline is creating new assets, Legends Arceus' gametime is LITERALLY 95% GRINDING, the main story campaign is about 4 hours total. This game was worked on for 3 years, if they chose to do Sinnoh halfway through development that "length pre-production" would literally still fit into that perspective. The reason the biggest AAA companies often have game bibles is because their production needs to actually be super strict to head deadlines, there isn't much creative work actually involved in the making of the game, most of the developers are basically the game development equivalent of a conveyor belt, and because the majority of the work of the next Call of Duty from the perspective of $$$ and employees is making new 4K assets for hyper realistic artstyles. Most AA developers, tons of AAA companies still, most games that don't have the assets as one of the bigger parts of it (Legends Arceus isn't one of those games!) do in fact experiment with the gameplay a lot longer before settling on the rest.

Look into basically any AAA project that is not Call of Duty tier formulaic and you will find that they probably did in fact fuck around far before the artistic assets were made, and before the actual gamestyle was settled on.

I just don't think you're going to convince me that Legends Arceus was always conceptually a Sinnoh project.

 

[DrrT]

My actual unpopular take is Legends Arceus was never created as a "Sinnoh" game at all, and that in the last half of development they learned the year the game was coming out would = The Year of Sinnoh, + making it a game that takes place at a time when

There wouldn't be much society

Makes for an EXTREMELY convenient reason to only make one town and environmental areas with not much stuff, and not much level design. The setting the game takes place in is extremely convenient to make for the least dev time in crafting the worlds possible. Also, I don't think it's a coincidence that half the areas in the game literally would make sense in basically any region. I think the game was only envisioned as a Sinnoh game when it came time for testing to transition into an actual game-game, and that Sinnoh was a corporate mandate.

I don't think I can agree with this, because you need to assume way too many things in order for it to work. There is just too much Sinnoh focus (sure, there are references to all generations, but the clothing of the Clans, Team Galaxy and even the merchants which are based on Cynthia seem like the most basic things of the settings, just like literally everything concerning spacetime distorsions which are a Sinnoh thing) that wouldn't work if the original plan was not said region, and GF didn't exactly have a schedule to allow radical changes either. The maps being generic are hardly a point since as you say yourself they could work in any region since they are disconnected, but that's exactly why it diesn't mean it was another one of the regions and not Sinnoh. I don't see how all of that would have been done in only the later half of development - the antagonists, the symbology, the very specific ancient Japanese setting that wouldn't work in any of the regions but the first fourth ones. The game is even an isekai which, fittingly for GameFreak's standards, it's the safest way to introduce players to a main game set in the past, and that only really works in Sinnoh and Johto (or with Arceus obviously).

I don't see how no new Pokemon related to Gen 4 is a valid point either, in fact I would argue that's a pount against it- the only non Eevolution mons post gen 4 are all regional forms. That seems completely intentional to me as it's the perfect way to not contradict the Sinnoh games when there isn't really such a big time gap and, more importantly, they made sure to have all the Gen 4 Pokemon avaliable on the game one way or another. The designs also couldn't have been made beforehand and fit into any region, since as I noted previously they all have very important ancient Japanese inspirations. That wouldn't work in anything post-Unova.

But most importantly, I seriously doubt GameFreak of all people initially started a game that diverges so much from what you usually see on the main series without relating it to an already existing region, specially considering it was dropped mid-generation. Specially when BDSP exists and seems way more likely that it only does so because they wanted a safe option to release alongside LA. You would have a way easier time trying to convince me LA was a Sinnoh remake that got so different than they panicked and needed BDSP to feel safe releasing it that making me consider they would create a main series title in a complete new region at the end of a generation with the mechanics it currently has. A spinoff? Sure, but a main series game? Unless you are suggesting it waa based in another existing region not being Sinnoh, in which case...that's really complete speculation that I see no reason to believe, unless it was Johto, and even then I have a hard time seeing why we should think it would be specifically chosen over Sinnoh. You seem to think LA as it is now was a result of the "year of Sinnoh" while I get the reason it was the complete opposite. I don't think that executives wanted LA of all games to fit the role of Sinnoh games most people were expecting to eventually happen. The Indigo Disk being in Unova feels a lot more like corporate mandate to "fill the Unova slot" than LA, because BDSP existed.

I don't buy LA is a much more smaller project either, considering it's developed by Team B. It's a different team from other games sure, but that's the point of alterning teams. The mentioned BDSP is a much more smaller project in scale. LA is still done by GF and meant to ocuppy the yearly slot. And it's a brand new game, unlike the Indigo Disk.

 

[ant4456]

I don't think I can agree with this, because you need to assume way too many things in order for it to work. There is just too much Sinnoh focus (sure, there are references to all generations, but the clothing of the Clans, Team Galaxy and even the merchants which are based on Cynthia seem like the most basic things of the settings, just like literally everything concerning spacetime distorsions which are a Sinnoh thing) that wouldn't work if the original plan was not said region, and GF didn't exactly have a schedule to allow radical changes either. The maps being generic are hardly a point since as you say yourself they could work in any region since they are disconnected, but that's exactly why it diesn't mean it was another one of the regions and not Sinnoh. I don't see how all of that would have been done in only the later half of development - the antagonists, the symbology, the very specific ancient Japanese setting that wouldn't work in any of the regions but the first fourth ones. The game is even an isekai which, fittingly for GameFreak's standards, it's the safest way to introduce players to a main game set in the past, and that only really works in Sinnoh and Johto (or with Arceus obviously).

I don't see how no new Pokemon related to Gen 4 is a valid point either, in fact I would argue that's a pount against it- the only non Eevolution mons post gen 4 are all regional forms. That seems completely intentional to me as it's the perfect way to not contradict the Sinnoh games when there isn't really such a big time gap and, more importantly, they made sure to have all the Gen 4 Pokemon avaliable on the game one way or another. The designs also couldn't have been made beforehand and fit into any region, since as I noted previously they all have very important ancient Japanese inspirations. That wouldn't work in anything post-Unova.

But most importantly, I seriously doubt GameFreak of all people initially started a game that diverges so much from what you usually see on the main series without relating it to an already existing region, specially considering it was dropped mid-generation. Specially when BDSP exists and seems way more likely that it only does so because they wanted a safe option to release alongside LA. You would have a way easier time trying to convince me LA was a Sinnoh remake that got so different than they panicked and needed BDSP to feel safe releasing it that making me consider they would create a main series title in a complete new region at the end of a generation with the mechanics it currently has. A spinoff? Sure, but a main series game? Unless you are suggesting it waa based in another existing region not being Sinnoh, in which case...that's really complete speculation that I see no reason to believe, unless it was Johto, and even then I have a hard time seeing why we should think it would be specifically chosen over Sinnoh. You seem to think LA as it is now was a result of the "year of Sinnoh" while I get the reason it was the complete opposite. I don't think that executives wanted LA of all games to fit the role of Sinnoh games most people were expecting to eventually happen. The Indigo Disk being in Unova feels a lot more like corporate mandate to "fill the Unova slot" than LA, because BDSP existed.

I don't buy LA is a much more smaller project either, considering it's developed by Team B. It's a different team from other games sure, but that's the point of alterning teams. The mentioned BDSP is a much more smaller project in scale. LA is still done by GF and meant to ocuppy the yearly slot. And it's a brand new game, unlike the Indigo Disk.

I think there's some miscommunications here and tbf I didn't articulate myself well earlier so.

Main thing is, I believe a substantial amount of early development was specifically on gameplay features with some designs being done, of course. Prototyping would be a big part of the dev time for a game like this.

Secondly, I didn't mean it wasn't going to be tied to a region. I just don't think they started the project with Sinnoh theming in mind. I think it started more focused on the gameplay aspect, which shows through with the short campaign and more generic environments.

PLA is a smaller team than the main team, because LGPE was a smaller team and that is the team that made PLA. I also don't think the isekai storyline existed for much of the first year of development.

Basically, unlike the traditional process of development for a Pokemon game, I believe Legends was designed much more like say, a Nintendo game. Make the gameplay first, make a story and develop the scenario later. To me, Legends Arceus is a game where the core gameplay is designed to where you can just do it over and over. The actual amount of scenarios in the game is quite small, if you count quests the majority is "collect an item". There is one single "dungeon" in the entire game, and it is one of the lowest quality parts of the map and it's in the final map.

The only way I see it fitting into the Year of Sinnoh besides for this is if they decided to make The Year of Sinnoh due to PLA. The Year of Sinnoh was NOT a well-planned thing in advance. BDSP had such little development time for a reason, it was developed specifically for the tie-in and likely started development literally around the time TYoS was phoned in, and that would still be enough time to turn PLA into a Sinnoh game.

Development time takes a long time, don't get me wrong; I've been developing my own projects, I get it (albeit not in a professional sense). But PLA's low poly aesthetic, its map design, its scenario and story, IMO screams the most rushed aspect of the project, and the thing that was not really planned out early on. It's jarring to me to walk into literally a random forest by a river and then Eterna Forest remix . mp3 starts playing even though it looks nothing like it. It's just a forest. That's literally the only connection.

 

[Yung Dramps]

I get what you're trying to say here but I don't really think "the environments are too generic" is a point in your argument's favor when that's just kind of how Sinnoh is. With the exception of the Distortion World there was never any environment in DPPt as fantastical as Chargestone Cave, Reflection Cave, Glimwood Tangle or what have you. Each of the zones are clearly built as reworked amalgams of the original games' gameplay segments, like Crimson Mirelands being based on the Pastoria/Solaceon chunk of the map with its swamps, the ruins and Lake Valor as well as the appropriate encounters (Great Marsh Pokemon and Hippopotas come to mind).

 

[Lontra Assassina]

I've been reminiscing a lot about Legends Arceus these days and I came to the (probably unpopular) opinion that Pokémon jumped the gun when it comes to open-world Pokémon. I know this is something a lot of people wanted, but I think GF was still one or two games away at least from making the game SV wanted to be. A lot of the technical and mechanical issues in that game comes down to not having enough experience developing games like this, and I'd rather have them take baby steps towards that so that they could deliver a properly fleshed out experience. I wouldn't mind seeing them elaborating more on the idea of the Wild Area, maybe having a couple more of them per game alongside linear dungeons, experimenting here and there with non-linear objetives, etc.

A good point of comparison would be the Atelier series, which are also RPGs on a similar scale with a yearly release schedule. They have been experimenting with bigger explorable areas at least since 2016's Atelier Firis, and ever since they have slowly expanded the production scale; each game bringing in new gameplay ideas and upgrading their technical skills. Now, in 2025, almost TEN YEARS later, we're getting a proper open-world experience with Atelier Yumia, which also brings back a lot of the gameplay concepts they tried out in previous games to make the world actually fun to explore. To the point I'd go so far as to say they've OUTPACED GF as developers.

Again, I get that people were starving for an open-world Pokémon game, but I don't think it would have hurt anyone to wait a little longer. It's almost like GF were afraid to be seen as too iterative, decided to go big and completely fell flat on their faces.

 

[DrrT]

I think there's some miscommunications here and tbf I didn't articulate myself well earlier so.

Main thing is, I believe a substantial amount of early development was specifically on gameplay features with some designs being done, of course. Prototyping would be a big part of the dev time for a game like this.

Secondly, I didn't mean it wasn't going to be tied to a region. I just don't think they started the project with Sinnoh theming in mind. I think it started more focused on the gameplay aspect, which shows through with the short campaign and more generic environments.

PLA is a smaller team than the main team, because LGPE was a smaller team and that is the team that made PLA. I also don't think the isekai storyline existed for much of the first year of development.

Basically, unlike the traditional process of development for a Pokemon game, I believe Legends was designed much more like say, a Nintendo game. Make the gameplay first, make a story and develop the scenario later. To me, Legends Arceus is a game where the core gameplay is designed to where you can just do it over and over. The actual amount of scenarios in the game is quite small, if you count quests the majority is "collect an item". There is one single "dungeon" in the entire game, and it is one of the lowest quality parts of the map and it's in the final map.

The only way I see it fitting into the Year of Sinnoh besides for this is if they decided to make The Year of Sinnoh due to PLA. The Year of Sinnoh was NOT a well-planned thing in advance. BDSP had such little development time for a reason, it was developed specifically for the tie-in and likely started development literally around the time TYoS was phoned in, and that would still be enough time to turn PLA into a Sinnoh game.

Development time takes a long time, don't get me wrong; I've been developing my own projects, I get it (albeit not in a professional sense). But PLA's low poly aesthetic, its map design, its scenario and story, IMO screams the most rushed aspect of the project, and the thing that was not really planned out early on. It's jarring to me to walk into literally a random forest by a river and then Eterna Forest remix . mp3 starts playing even though it looks nothing like it. It's just a forest. That's literally the only connection.

I mean, I still don't see why Sinnoh would be an executive mandate for LA because I don't see why Sinnoh in particular would be more fitting for the project. All the mons and setting being so heavily Hokkaido inspired just seem like too much of a coincidence to me. LA is definetly not a polished game that's for sure, but I feel like that's just time constrains nor allowing them to polish the game fully. But the Anui references and the spacetime distorsions are so integrated into the game that I can't see it all coming up in only the later half of the development. We know there is a separated team that designs Pokemon for instance, surely they didn't wait that long to tell them they needed Pokemon mounts that would fit the early settlements of Hokkaido.

As I said, I have a hard time assuming the first GF game that takes place in the past without multiple time travels would not be an isekai, with how easily it allows veteran players to translate into a setting where Pokemon are suddenly dangerous and people are scared of them. The protagonist being able to stand to them is a very big key point since the very start, and later plays a role on their exile as well. You can't really create a setting where people are amazed by someone catching 3 Pokemon and have the main character be magically good at it qirhour giving it at least some explanation, and the isekai is the easier one. There are also various dialogues where Ingo and MC's knowledge of the future and things like battles/gyms or contests are used to advance the story and make it less ridiculous than people would accept things so quickly. And since completing the Pokedex is also so important, much more than in any other title (the entire gameplay loop depends on the tasks and ranks, explained because it's not a digital one), and that's only possible thanks to capturing Pokemon out of the time period, surely some kind of timetravel had to be in play anyways. That's bound to happen because of the nature of the creation of many Pokemon. So as soon as they decided on rhe capture mechanics and the gameplay loop they surely realized that Pokemon from the future/arrificial ones would need a reason to be catchable. Sinnoh just fits so naturally that I'm more inclined to believe it evolved from it, and not that it was added later. How that happened trough, I have no idea, but it's also possible.

I just don't see any big reason as to why Sinnoh would not have been on their mind since the very start. It would explain GF even considering doing a weird action rpg in the main series. In my eyes, the "year of Sinnoh" was them basically saying "see, you can't be mad that we are doing this weird game, because we are also releasing BDSP!" Similarly, I don't see why executivers would think that the weird game with rolling, fighting Pokemon on your own being damaged by them and throwing balls in boss battles had to be Sinnoh. It's definetly not what DPPt fans were going to expect and seems like a weird change. Seems more likely to me it was always the idea, and only when they realized Sinnoh fans may be mad they got ILCA to rush BDSP and pretend it was a planed year (after all, they could suddenly say sonething like 2028 is the year of Unova and sure, who can deny it? They decide when remakes come out, otherwise ORAS would have been Gen 5).

It's just kind of an assumption that, while obviously possible, I don't see any strong reason to believe on imho. I'm not really trying to change your mind of course, just pointing out that it seems like a pretty random concept on my eyes. I don't see old fashioned GF naturally deciding to develop the type of game LA is without a basis on how they would connect it to the rest of the games.

 

[DrrT]

I've been reminiscing a lot about Legends Arceus these days and I came to the (probably unpopular) opinion that Pokémon jumped the gun when it comes to open-world Pokémon. I know this is something a lot of people wanted, but I think GF was still one or two games away at least from making the game SV wanted to be. A lot of the technical and mechanical issues in that game comes down to not having enough experience developing games like this, and I'd rather have them take baby steps towards that so that they could deliver a properly fleshed out experience. I wouldn't mind seeing them elaborating more on the idea of the Wild Area, maybe having a couple more of them per game alongside linear dungeons, experimenting here and there with non-linear objetives, etc.

A good point of comparison would be the Atelier series, which are also RPGs on a similar scale with a yearly release schedule. They have been experimenting with bigger explorable areas at least since 2016's Atelier Firis, and ever since they have slowly expanded the production scale; each game bringing in new gameplay ideas and upgrading their technical skills. Now, in 2025, almost TEN YEARS later, we're getting a proper open-world experience with Atelier Yumia, which also brings back a lot of the gameplay concepts they tried out in previous games to make the world actually fun to explore. To the point I'd go so far as to say they've OUTPACED GF as developers.

Again, I get that people were starving for an open-world Pokémon game, but I don't think it would have hurt anyone to wait a little longer. It's almost like GF were afraid to be seen as too iterative, decided to go big and completely fell flat on their faces.

I absolutely adore the open-world in SV. It's probably the reason why Scarlet is my most played game in the franchise ever, which is insane. But the flaws are very obvious. Without any type of external guude, there is no way people would fight Rhyme then go to the south of the region before fighting Grusha. There are very weird decisions there.

I wonder if ZA is similarly a big attempt at getting better developing cities, so they can try to mix it with the open world without buildings that we got (I personally didn't mind it at all, specially because that's pretty much rural Spain, but I get why people don't like it.)

 

[ant4456]

A lot of the technical and mechanical issues in that game comes down to not having enough experience developing games like this, and I'd rather have them take baby steps towards that so that they could deliver a properly fleshed out experience.

This isn't accurate. The technical issues are because the Pokemon engine they developed was for topdown games.

More experience developing these kinds of games doesn't help when you don't have the tools. It would take 1-2 years to make a good 3D open air Pokemon game engine which they don't have because corporate mandates.

The idea that they haven't done babysteps just doesn't make sense, SWSH's Wild Area is The Baby Step, with Crown Tundra kinda being a mini SV in terms of scenario design. Crown Tundra is also great.

People try to make it out to be a skill issue but every other developer gets the time to make an engine or is working with an engine that is made for these types of games. Scarlet and Violet shares its code DNA with Sun and Moon, a game that has set camera angles and was designed for a different type of game. Letting the player move the camera everywhere almost alone deserves an entirely new engine.

The problem is that it would take basically half or more of an entire Pokemon game development cycle with how quickly they are forcing these games to come out. This is the biggest reason why I am not confident in even a 4 year dev time somehow making the development go smoothly: the biggest obstacle is that they are turning a topdown game into an open world 3D, move your camera anywhere, go anywhere at any time, game. We should feel lucky that Legends Arceus runs as well as it does considering its code ancestry.

A good point of comparison would be the Atelier series, which are also RPGs on a similar scale

Comparing Pokemon development to most other RPGs just isn't the same thing. I know people want to think if Monolith Soft or someone picked up Pokemon it'd somehow work out, but no, it really wouldn't, because they'd be working with the same archaic spaghetti code except now they also have to figure out the engine and onboard themselves, too. And no fucking chance would they be able to make their own version of the engine for their purposes while keeping a 3 year dev time.

The problems with Pokemon aren't a "skill issue" on the devs part, and it's not even the developers being incompetent. Scarlet/Violet is actually pretty fucking competent for the game engine and time given, along with resources alotted to the devs. It's just trying to push a square into the circle hole. And they can't get a circle because it would take literal years, which corporate can't accept.

The best thing that could happen to Pokemon is basically skipping almost a generation (2 years) just working on a game engine with all the capabilities they need for 3D open world Pokemon, optimizing the process as the power jumps of the Switch 2 and onward is actually going to slow things even further (as shown with AAA across the industry), make tools for their developers to easily make 3D terrain, etc. Get the help of third-parties when possible and yes, obviously do other things such as pre-production on the next generation, and more.

This isn't entirely uncommon, and to be clear, this is before the actual game development time. If you do the game engine and have it cut into the actual time of developing the game? You get Sonic Forces, where they basically made a game engine and then spent a year working on actual content for the game.