Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[DaddyBuzzwole]

gouging fire ban woohoo!!




okay now how can i make this about kyurem ?

well in all honesty i didn’t really care for gouging fire, it felt like a matchup mon to me were there’d be at least ONE variation that could easily 6-0 given the right circumstance, i think it being banned there serves as a net positive for the tier and shows that yes we as a community can actually take action and not let problems mutate over time and become much worse than they originally were
personally against less offensive teams i’d use sinistcha but even that doesn’t work super well if gouge had earthquake or something of the sort, and the mindless button clicking of tera fire sun raging fury was fun when i needed to get out of low ladder but not much else to say about it

now..in my possible hot-take, we should just quickban kyurem and let the meta develop a bit before we TRULY look at our final suspect options(probably waterpon or darkrai, maybe even roaring moon if we’re lucky)
in total, what DO we lose by quickbanning kyurem?

sub protect sets that do nothing but pray for unlucky freezes or pressure stall feel very uncompetitive, and not even just from a “stall bad” perspective it’s literally just completely unwinnable if you don’t have a complete counter to it

iron crown(the best kyurem check in my opinion) doesn’t get horribly worse and specs sets have popped up more and more(especially on bulky offense teams that love a good 100 bp stab steel move)
glowking is still the primary special wall
and even other special walls like clod, ting-lu, etc that can’t handle kyurems perfect coverage well actually have more use now
stall players dont have to worry about their dozo getting 2HKO’d by a surprise freeze dry never melt ice kyurem that set dragon dance up 1 turn ago

i definitely might get flamed for this but kyurems been such an uncompetitive mon to me for almost a year soon(time really flies) and once players no longer have to worry about if they’re gonna get sub-protect stalled, dd swept or simply just specs draco ice beam swept, i think we’ll have a much healthier and honestly funner metagame as a result

i think if anything for the rest of the gen deserves the sneasler treatment it's kyurem. just like sneasler, kyurem has been sitting there being broken right in front of everyone's faces through multiple other suspects and we were all aware of it. it's well past time to take it behind the shed and put it down

 

[Joycap]

i think if anything for the rest of the gen deserves the sneasler treatment it's kyurem. just like sneasler, kyurem has been sitting there being broken right in front of everyone's faces through multiple other suspects and we were all aware of it. it's well past time to take it behind the shed and put it down

I have no objections. Not because I take umbrage with Kyurem personally (in my indifference, I don't), but because a QB here would probably be more efficient. "A guilty plea speeds up the justice system" and all that.

I disagree with the examples littensalt has for the next suspect, but that'll be for another time. I think you already have a taste of my ideas, though.

EDIT:

glowking is still the primary special wall

Now that you mention it... I ran into a couple of Glowkings on ladder, and at least one of them happened to be running Covert Cloak. I'd wager Freeze-Dry is why?

 

[Finchinator]

To reiterate, Kyurem will not be quickbanned. Nothing will at this point, but a quickban on a Pokemon that was voted to stay OU through a suspect is absolutely not on the table.

There’s a chance the next suspect happens next weekend/early the following week, but everything is still being discussed and on the table.

 

[littensalt]

i think if anything for the rest of the gen deserves the sneasler treatment it's kyurem. just like sneasler, kyurem has been sitting there being broken right in front of everyone's faces through multiple other suspects and we were all aware of it. it's well past time to take it behind the shed and put it down

i think you can at least(keyword) make an argument for the other mons i mentioned

darkrai?more niche picks like tinkaton, okidogi, etc
waterpon?the dragons and grass types
roaring moon?skarmory, dondozo, maybe zama, or even the fabled magic guard sticky barb clef of legend

obviously i dont agree with all of these solutions(especially roaring moons answers) but you have SOME amount of options against most variations of said mons, what DO you have against kyurem?

even when you go against mons with a lot of sets/variants you usually have something to check it,
dragapult?gargs a great check if you have an extra defensive mon(ie kingambit for band pult, glowking for specs pult, yknow)
zama?dozo, ghost types and any mon with contact punishing
dragonite?similar case with zama
iron val?mons that can phaze it because val HATES losing its booster energy, skarm for physical, glowking for special, even moltres for mixed(assuming no thunderbolt)

 

[Darlington]

Much as I hate Zama but it does have some checks but doesn't mean I want that cheap Legendary to be in Ou but that's another topic. Yeah I think Kyurem time is up. I prefer Bax over Kyurem just because Bax is way more scarier to face but I enjoy using it more than Kyurem. Kyurem is a cheap two face flip a coin match where you don't know if it's mix, scarf, specs, protect+sub lol wtf is set is that. Yeah Kyurem can get the boot. Never going to be balance in Ou, not like Gen 5-7. Once I got Freeze Dry, that should tell you um yeah this thing will get out of hands very soon. Never bring Kyurem back in Ou ever again. This should be the last time.

 

[JackRG]

To reiterate, Kyurem will not be quickbanned. Nothing will at this point, but a quickban on a Pokemon that was voted to stay OU through a suspect is absolutely not on the table.

There’s a chance the next suspect happens next weekend/early the following week, but everything is still being discussed and on the table.

I agree with you but I think its worth mentioning the subprotect set didn't really exist last time it got tested

 

[ULTRA SPACE JAM]

Good fucking riddance. Now I don't have to see this monstrosity ever again. That is, until it inevitably comes back in Gen 10...

On another note, god, I wish Kyurem didn't survive that suspect test from a while back. Now we have to deal with it a second time. Terrible, horrible, awful mon to have here. SubTect stinks, the other million* or so viable sets stink... well, less so, but still. I don't like it, and a lot of people seem to share the same sentiment. I really hope that if we get a second suspect, it finally goes for good.
*I made up this number for dramatic effect. Kyurem does have a pretty high amount of viable sets it can run, though...

 

[veti]

If Kyurem is suspected within the next month or two, I will be voting DNB. Gouging Fire's ban will shake up the meta and I believe Kyurem's new sets will be adapted to by the playerbase regardless, so Kyurem will need more time existing in the meta to properly gauge its place and ensure a mistaken ban or do not ban doesn't occur. (i have no faith at all that a resuspect would ever happen if it got banned from while im confident it would one day be resuspected if it didn't get banned, and if a resuspect did happen it wouldn't be for long enough to properly determine its place.).

Subtect is one of the main sources of discontent, and I don't think the set is as broken as its made out to be. It faces power issues and despises hazards and phazing while its pretty tera hungry, mons like pult, crown, physical kyu, triple axel users, fsight users, ting, roar zama, moltres, faster encore mons, and choicetrick all disrupt it a ton while a good amount of offensive mons can break sub and easily take a hit, subtect will die down over time imo.

Specs is just a fine mon that rewards good positioning on either side while not being completely unwallable while being a healthy restriction on teams, struggles with a bad typing, choice lock, and mid speed tier.

Mixed variants are a pain for stall and fat balance but we aren't banning ursaluna, gliscor, samurott, or hoopa for being too good into them, into other styles they're completely manageable.

Full physical is hard to fit on teams, tera hungry, hard to set up when hazards are in play, and often struggles with coverage even when it burns tera, while speed control/physical walls on most teams can handle it well enough.

Give me my Haha reacts now.

 

[Avira]

I'm against Kyurem being suspected next week as it's normal to give the meta time to settle before having another suspect after a mon gets banned. Kingambit, Gholdengo, Iron Crown, Tinkaton, Scizor, and Assault Vest mons in general should get better with one seriously broken physical threat (Gouging Fire) out of the way, and I believe there should be time to give the meta to adapt as Kyurem might not even be the biggest priority for a ban next month after the meta settles. That is not to say Kyurem won't be an issue, but it might not end up being the most egregious of the mons remaining in the meta.

And as veti has alluded to, there are people (like veti) who will vote DNB 'cause of a suspect happening too soon after the next, so that might hurt the ban faction, which would make it better to wait until the chance of banning Kyurem is at its highest, which might be after a few weeks have passed.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

If Kyurem is suspected within the next month or two, I will be voting DNB. Gouging Fire's ban will shake up the meta and I believe Kyurem's new sets will be adapted to by the playerbase regardless, so Kyurem will need more time existing in the meta to properly gauge its place and ensure a mistaken ban or do not ban doesn't occur. (i have no faith at all that a resuspect would ever happen if it got banned from while im confident it would one day be resuspected if it didn't get banned, and if a resuspect did happen it wouldn't be for long enough to properly determine its place.).

i think you made a couple typos in the first paragraph so i fixed them

 

[Moyashi]

Subtect is one of the main sources of discontent, and I don't think the set is as broken as its made out to be. It faces power issues and despises hazards and phazing while its pretty tera hungry, mons like pult, crown, physical kyu, triple axel users, fsight users, ting, roar zama, moltres, faster encore mons, and choicetrick all disrupt it a ton while a good amount of offensive mons can break sub and easily take a hit, subtect will die down over time imo.

The power issues are less issues when it gets to hang behind subs and fish for freezes while stalling out the opponent. And as it's commonly known, freezes tend to break games. It's also hardly "tera hungry" and I don't know where that comes from. Triple Axel users, which there are two of, one of which is just mediocre (Meow) and the other is difficult to fit on teams atm (and still has to eat Earth Powers, which can beat it longterm). Ting-Lu is not a SubTect answer (not great anyways unless you burn tera), Zama has to still eat the hits and risk being frozen. All of Glowking, Ting, Moltres and other mons risk being frozen by Kyurem. Sure offense has an easier time handling it, but that sort of misses the point. Lots of slower teams are food for SubTect Kyurem and they don't have a ton of ways around it.

Also what "Choice-Trick" mons are there atm? Meow is mid, Choice Val isn't super common (at least not that I can think of) due to Glowking and other stops being common, and TrickScarf Ghold, which can't even beat SubTect Kyurem if it already subbed up.

Specs is just a fine mon that rewards good positioning on either side while not being completely unwallable while being a healthy restriction on teams, struggles with a bad typing, choice lock, and mid speed tier.

"Not completely unwallable"

Nearly everything drops to Choice Specs Ice Beam outside AV Glowking, which still gets insanely pressured by Tera Ice varients and there are no bulky resists able to eat it well. I'm also gonna just disagree about "bad typing". I don't really know what's healthy about it as a restriction on teams.

Mixed variants are a pain for stall and fat balance but we aren't banning ursaluna, gliscor, samurott, or hoopa for being too good into them, into other styles they're completely manageable.

With no disrespect meant, I really dislike this "but these other mons though" argument whenever Kyurem gets brought up as a restricting force against slower teams. Hoopa is really awkward to fit, has a much worse speed tier than Kyurem which makes it easy to revenge kill even for slower teams, and near nonexistent defensive utility. Unless you run AV, but that makes it much more tolerable. Luna is on a self imposed timer, struggles with some prediction at times, is so slow that it's easy to revenge kill (and without Mola back up, this is especially true).

Full physical is hard to fit on teams, tera hungry, hard to set up when hazards are in play, and often struggles with coverage even when it burns tera, while speed control/physical walls on most teams can handle it well enough.

Not really? Especially with Tera Blast innovations, what physical walls actually answer it that well? Don is getting harder and harder to fit because its a passive blob, Mola has to fish for burns (and hope it isn't Sub DD which feasts on it), Tusk dies... like am I missing something?

I do agree with the sentiment about waiting for the meta to settle after a big ban, because who knows what could come up. But i also believe it to be foolish to write this mon off when it has shown to be able to adapt to its own checks.

 

[JackRG]

when will the gouging fire ban be implemented on ladder?

 

[waffle04]

If Kyurem is suspected within the next month or two, I will be voting DNB. Gouging Fire's ban will shake up the meta and I believe Kyurem's new sets will be adapted to by the playerbase regardless, so Kyurem will need more time existing in the meta to properly gauge its place and ensure a mistaken ban or do not ban doesn't occur. (i have no faith at all that a resuspect would ever happen if it got banned from while im confident it would one day be resuspected if it didn't get banned, and if a resuspect did happen it wouldn't be for long enough to properly determine its place.).

Subtect is one of the main sources of discontent, and I don't think the set is as broken as its made out to be. It faces power issues and despises hazards and phazing while its pretty tera hungry, mons like pult, crown, physical kyu, triple axel users, fsight users, ting, roar zama, moltres, faster encore mons, and choicetrick all disrupt it a ton while a good amount of offensive mons can break sub and easily take a hit, subtect will die down over time imo.

Specs is just a fine mon that rewards good positioning on either side while not being completely unwallable while being a healthy restriction on teams, struggles with a bad typing, choice lock, and mid speed tier.

Mixed variants are a pain for stall and fat balance but we aren't banning ursaluna, gliscor, samurott, or hoopa for being too good into them, into other styles they're completely manageable.

Full physical is hard to fit on teams, tera hungry, hard to set up when hazards are in play, and often struggles with coverage even when it burns tera, while speed control/physical walls on most teams can handle it well enough.

Give me my Haha reacts now.

I know kyurem seems to be far more controversial among the general playerbase but I'm 100% in agreement with you. It's variety is its biggest strength yet it's generally pretty easy to check early game which is enough a lot of the time because it has a hard time switching in for free once other threats are out because of a lack of major resists. Obviously stuff like calm sub kyurem tries to take advantage of pivots like glowking to make more progress midgame but then it ends up in a tough spot where it's extremely weak to disruption and outsped by mons it should outspeed like tusk, ghold and the now banned gouging which can take advantage of that. Investing that much into bulk also makes it far easier to pivot around because it's so much weaker and can be broken through at the cost of extra pp which admittedly can be big. Kyurem is definitely a strong pokemon overall and not knowing if its sub or boots or scarf can cause some issues short term but the weaknesses of each set are more clearly defined than most of the banned pokemon and merely scouting the first turn its out let's you deal with it far more effectively than volcarona or gouging fire which click quiver dance or dd, respectively, and reveal nothing at all about the set. It's still a top tier breaker/sweeper that dodged the ban by a thread and one you always have to keep in consideration but it's got enough traits that hold it back to ultimately make it manageable. All that said, I think mixed loaded dice sets, which seems to be the primary force behind ban sentiment, have been underexplored with tera blast since you can tech it to be special or physical and run types like electric to bypass would be checks that force you out but, that would reiterate to my point made on the gouging fire suspect thread about tera blast being the root of the issue which isn't an uncommon sentiment given that it tied gliscor on the OLT qualifier survey for 3rd behind the now banned dinosaur and controversial husk.

 

[JackRG]

I know kyurem seems to be far more controversial among the general playerbase but I'm 100% in agreement with you. It's variety is its biggest strength yet it's generally pretty easy to check early game which is enough a lot of the time because it has a hard time switching in for free once other threats are out because of a lack of major resists. Obviously stuff like calm sub kyurem tries to take advantage of pivots like glowking to make more progress midgame but then it ends up in a tough spot where it's extremely weak to disruption and outsped by mons it should outspeed like tusk, ghold and the now banned gouging which can take advantage of that. Investing that much into bulk also makes it far easier to pivot around because it's so much weaker and can be broken through at the cost of extra pp which admittedly can be big. Kyurem is definitely a strong pokemon overall and not knowing if its sub or boots or scarf can cause some issues short term but the weaknesses of each set are more clearly defined than most of the banned pokemon and merely scouting the first turn its out let's you deal with it far more effectively than volcarona or gouging fire which click quiver dance or dd, respectively, and reveal nothing at all about the set. It's still a top tier breaker/sweeper that dodged the ban by a thread and one you always have to keep in consideration but it's got enough traits that hold it back to ultimately make it manageable. All that said, I think mixed loaded dice sets, which seems to be the primary force behind ban sentiment, have been underexplored with tera blast since you can tech it to be special or physical and run types like electric to bypass would be checks that force you out but, that would reiterate to my point made on the gouging fire suspect thread about tera blast being the root of the issue which isn't an uncommon sentiment given that it tied gliscor on the OLT qualifier survey for 3rd behind the now banned dinosaur and controversial husk.

why is gliscor so high?

 

[Kadiro]

I honestly think that once kyurem is tested (and most likely banned) we should look at GLISCOR because its truly unbereable. The utility set have always been mad anoyying since nothing in the game besides other gliscor can deal with the eq+toxic+knock combo without being crippled in some way, but now its the SD sets that are getting out of hand. The thing has a million of free switchs per game since it walls so many mons and from there the set up is quite easy. Pokemon that threaten it like wogerpon, kyurem or darkrai arent reliable at all since gliscor is almost always paired with lots of hazards and it runs knock even on the SD sets which are very customizable. I would say that spdef variants are the most annoying but fast sd gliscor is also a pain and of course you can always tera to avoid the ice or water move since this thing lives everything that is neutral to it.

Apart from that i think that gliscor really kills variaty in an unhealthy way. Its almost impossible to deal with it in the builder since your only choice to check it its via fast ice type coverage because you are not going to stop it without an offensive approach unless you are using your own gliscor. So many mons that have cool niches are completely killed by not being able to touch gliscor like clodsire, fezandipiti, thundurus therian, sandy shocks, tornadus therian etc. Even real ou pokemon would appreciate to run more agressive sets without being stone walled by gliscor like SD LandoT,AoA Zamazenta or even offensive moltres which i think it has a place.

I have been months begging for something to be done about gliscor and now that kyurem (its best answer i think) its most likely going to be tested and maybe banned i think it will be a good opportunity.

 

[Welcome to mars]

Gouging fire was trash and the fools who used it made ladder grinding too easy for me and too hard for others, get that ass banned for being lame

 

[darkmoonbeam]

At this point there might need to be a tier between OU and Ubers cause the bar is so high right now holy moly mashed potato

 

[Joycap]

At this point there might need to be a tier between OU and Ubers cause the bar is so high right now holy moly mashed potato

Ubers UU: "Allow us to introduce ourselves"

 

[MC Squared]

To reiterate, Kyurem will not be quickbanned. Nothing will at this point, but a quickban on a Pokemon that was voted to stay OU through a suspect is absolutely not on the table.

There’s a chance the next suspect happens next weekend/early the following week, but everything is still being discussed and on the table.

Hope the next test isn't freaking Tera Blast lol

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

I believe if we do not look at Tera Blast soon we may never. I understand Kyurem was ranked higher- but so I expect will be Woger, Gliscor, Darkrai, Zama, Roaring Moon and then possibly Kingambit and Raging Bolt.

 

[Joycap]

I believe if we do not look at Tera Blast soon we may never. I understand Kyurem was ranked higher- but so I expect will be Woger, Gliscor, Darkrai, Zama, Roaring Moon and then possibly Kingambit and Raging Bolt.

Makes you wonder which of the listed mons we'll end up adapting to or growing ambivalent to by that same logic. For some reason I picture us adapting again to Darkrai and Zamazenta, and as I said to solrock the great earlier today - I kinda think Gambit is too much of a Tera sink for it's own good (words said about Supreme Overlord and Sucker guessing games not withstanding).

 

[Stallbrotonator]

Who do you think is the next Pokemon that needs to be banned from OU? I think it’s Kyurem!

 

[TheTraininator]

Who do you think is the next Pokemon that needs to be banned from OU? I think it’s Kyurem!

Traininator’s top 10 ‘mons that need to get banned from OU right away:

1. No one. It’s important to let the meta settle after a suspect test, even if it is just for a week or two, to best be able to keep an eye on meta trends. That way, if any Pokémon manages to take advantage of new holes created in their counterplay to become overbearing, we can focus on that Pokémon instead of pursuing one that was potentially problematic in a previous version of the metagame instead.

2. Kyurem

 

[Stallbrotonator]

Traininator’s top 10 ‘mons that need to get banned from OU right away:

1. No one. It’s important to let the meta settle after a suspect test, even if it is just for a week or two, to best be able to keep an eye on meta trends. That way, if any Pokémon manages to take advantage of new holes created in their counterplay to become overbearing, we can focus on that Pokémon instead of pursuing one that was potentially problematic in a previous version of the metagame instead.

2. Kyurem

I said it mostly as a joke because Kyurem is a Pokemon that I can't stand. Additionally, there may be another Kyurem suspect test in the coming weeks!

 

[Cuddly]

Man Gouging Fire had less people vote dnb than the number of people who were playing Concord today. That's impressive since the game had its servers shut down Friday. That's funny, and I hope everyone had a Blast while the suspect was going on.