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Cheney's endorsement and her promise to ensure that the US has the strongest, most lethal fighting force in the world points that she would be more of an interventionist which as a Latin American is worrying since very few US interventions in the region were beneficial to us.
when it comes to Latin America, there's basically no daylight between republicans and democrats on interventionism to my knowledge. Neither candidate is doing any serious intervening in Latin America involving the military until and unless something really extraordinary happens.

The Monroe Doctrine remains the standard for everyone in the two major parties if it came to russia or china etc doing something actively in the americas*. I don't expect that to ever come to pass, but if it did, both parties would respond similarly. As to internal politics of american countries, the US has generally, to the public's knowledge, remained on the sideline for several decades now since the 1989 deposition of Noriega in Panama (a very unique situation in many respects). The days of the US actively meddling with Latin America are, for the most part, over. I'm pretty confident any covert ops etc. acting to the contrary would be rebuked by both sides without extremely good cause.

*I will note Trump was actually way more forcefully vocal about The Monroe Doctrine than Obama ever was or than I think Biden has been. If you're worried about military intervention in the Americas, I think if anything it's probably slightly more likely under a Trump presidency than Harris.
 
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Cheney views trump as a threat to the deep state. Kamala is not. Right to Trumps point during the debate, he fired long serving bueocratics as opposed to the Biden administration not holding anyone responsible for the Afghanistan withdrawal as an example
Define the Deep State and explain why Trump's own advisors and appointees that he fired were a part of it.
 
Trump’s language this cycle is increasingly far-right coded, way more than in 2016. In 2016 he spoke in a very plain way that resonated with people, especially compared to the Obama/Warren wonky strategy. Now he’s the “victim” of a truth social echo chamber of his own design.

Kamala sounded so much more normal and understandable than Trump to medium to low information voters. If you follow politics closely the rightward trajectory of Trump’s rhetoric is a steady path from 2016 to now. For people who tune in every 4 years, it’s a rather jarring shift.
This is it. It’s me internalizing him sounding like a crazy fascist and thinking some people actually like it. I think you’re right that the plugged in modern right wing garbage must be shocking to unplugged people.

Also was listening without video so missed all of her brilliant facial expressions
 
Trump campaign's been thoroughly groyperfied and this debate was the perfect highlight for it now that Biden's decline is no longer a factor. I haven't seen many conservative types really defending his performance, it's all whining about moderator bias or that Kamala spoke too much in platitudes. Very embarassing for Trump, he no longer has the juice
 
when it comes to Latin America, there's basically no daylight between republicans and democrats on interventionism to my knowledge. Neither candidate is doing any serious intervening in Latin America involving the military until and unless something really extraordinary happens.

The Monroe Doctrine remains the standard for everyone in the two major parties if it came to russia or china etc doing something actively in the americas*. I don't expect that to ever come to pass, but if it did, both parties would respond similarly. As to internal politics of american countries, the US has generally, to the public's knowledge, remained on the sideline for several decades now since the 1989 deposition of Noriega in Panama (a very unique situation in many respects). The days of the US actively meddling with Latin America are, for the most part, over. I'm pretty confident any covert ops etc. acting to the contrary would be rebuked by both sides without extremely good cause.

*I will note Trump was actually way more forcefully vocal about The Monroe Doctrine than Obama ever was or than I think Biden has been. If you're worried about military intervention in the Americas, I think if anything it's probably slightly more likely under a Trump presidency than Harris.
A while ago, Republicans wanted to invade Mexico to combat drug cartels and both Republicans and Democrats kept sactions against Cuba and Venezuela (in both cases the sactions hurt more the population than the regimes that the US wants to topple). It's not only about military interventions but general meddling like the US ambassador comments about Mexico judicial reforms and the DOJ and FBI involvement in Operation Car Wash. I know this source is in Portuguese, but here we have DOJ connected prosecutors during Obama administration acting rather scummy with their Brazilian counterparts.

Even soft interventions with good intentions can have bad results, as it can be argued that Operation Car Wash would lead to Bolsonaro winning the president elections in 2018 as Lula was in prison and he couldn't run as a candidate. So thanks Obama for helping the rise of the far right in Brazil (tongue firmly in my cheek).

I have no illusions about Trump and how he views us and how he would deal with Latin America. But Kamala having a more of interventionist streak is worrying, because in the end of the day she will of course prioritize US interests which more often than not don't align with the interests of Latin American countries.

Biden’s first term has ended with him becoming “Genocide Joe” forever.

Some will call it success, others will rightly condemn him for his beliefs, and his inaction
Domestically, Biden is a very good president, his foreign policy is trash. Genocide Joe indeed.
 
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Campaign wise Harris is running the best Democratic campaign I’ve ever seen. Everything has been as good as one could expect; even down to the VP pick (Walz is S tier). The Harris campaign is a 100% upgrade from the Biden campaign.

However, I am of mindset that campaigns do not matter in US presidential elections. The election is a referendum on the incumbent administration. Let’s recap:

2000: (Gore really won) referendum on Bill Clinton’s success
2004: Bush re-elected - rally around the flag / Iraq War
2008: Referendum on Bush recession
2012: Obama re-elected, successful 1st term
2016: Trump elected (Obama’s second term was disastrous and nothing got accomplished)
2020: Biden elected (Trump lol)
2024: ???? (Biden had a successful 1st term)
Biden’s first term has ended with him becoming “Genocide Joe” forever.

Some will call it success, others will rightly condemn him for his beliefs, and his inaction.
 
Kamalaheads... Don't read this post...

I think the longer from the debate I linger with it in my head, I feel like Kamala is a bit worse and I don't know if the debate will age that well. I think the debate will play well with most people, and I still felt pretty libbed-up in the first half of the debate, but like...

Trump made some actually good critiques of the Democratic Party, frankly. This doesn't mean I think he's any better at all, but as I've always, always said here: The Republican Party is evil, but they are also good at being evil. They actually get things done for their constituents pretty frequently. Trump saying "Okay but how much of that stuff are you actually going to do, like for real though" was a pretty cutting remark because he's literally right.

When Trump said "it doesn't matter because you won't be able to sign federal abortion", I gotta be honest, he's spitting. I don't think the Democratic Party will actually get Roe v Wade, because while Kamala said Trump would rather run on fixing things, that is literally her (and Biden's before) entire campaign.

There'll be Joe Manchins that cause the bill to not be able to pass and then in 2026 it'll be "Vote harder, bucko!" and in 2028 I still think abortion rights will be a talking point. The moderators grilling Kamala on basically giving up every progressive position she took, pushing her to basically say "I'll be the greatest oil tyrant, baby!" with other things such as "I love private insurance", she's actually going to be tough on the border, committing to an entirely-impossible two-state solution in Gaza, etc. Kamala's not going to be a major progressive at all, and yet she's still gotta say "we're not going back", "we're not going forward", and she's running on policy, not fixing problems.

I want to remind the crowd here: Hillary Clinton funded Donald Trump's campaign because they thought he would be a weak candidate, and that they would destroy him. Since then, the Democratic Party's motto has been almost exclusively "cleaning up the mess". It was calculated that if the Republican Party was pushed fascist, it would scare everyone into voting for them, making them win automatically; and frankly, it worked to an extent, just after the first round of seeing a shitshow. But with them for the second election in a row playing the same card?

If Kamala wins, in 2028 there will be people shitting on every time Kamala said that they would be bringing us forward, not bringing us back, while the party's basically trying to bring us back to "normalcy"; which is great in the sense that, since 2015 American politics have fucking sucked, but that's still a conservative position. That is conserving us to the past, bringing us back to a time that wasn't sunshine and rainbows.

Look, I get it. I want to believe that if Trump loses this election, the Republican Party will shift the Overton window left, bringing a more centrist candidate that gets the Democratic Party to play ball a bit more leftward too. But I just don't see it. I just don't. As a Bluesky user now, I remember seeing this post during the debate half-time that was like: "Well, where's the articles gonna be calling for Trump to step down as nominee?!"

Well, I don't even think you can legally do that at this point first of all, but secondly: The media was helping the Democratic Party. I don't know if some Liberals really need this help, but like. The Media. Was. Helping. The Media is biased liberal, generally, and that is why they, alongside leadership such as Nancy Pelosi seeing disaster if Biden kept being the candidate, was on board with a campaign to, yes, deliberately kick Biden out as incumbent.

The media doing that was helping the Democratic Party be stronger in the race. Why doesn't conservative media do this, then? Besides the fact it's actually too late now, the reason they weren't doing it earlier was simple: Joe Biden did not actually have a base of people who joined the party in order to be a Biden Guy. That is a big reason why Democratic leadership thought kicking Biden was a good idea in the first place. Trump is not like that. Trump has like, last I checked, 30% of the Republican Party by the balls; if he wasn't there, there'd be no fervor. I do not think the Republicans can shift more centrist without losing a good amount of their current voter base, and trust me, it's not because they like Trump. When Tucker Carlson was prosecuted, they found text messages of him being happy Trump lost in 2020! But frankly, they kinda need the populist fascist rhetoric at this point. Even if Trump was cut out, a good portion of the party is MAGA; it'd take a complete reconstruction of the party to turn more conservative-centrist.

We can say "we gotta appeal to the moderates and then you can do good policy", but Biden still locked up those kids at the border, and Trump was objectively correct in saying that the Biden administration took some of Trump's policy and just never repealed it. And okay, I want to be clear: Trump literally was saying bullshit the entire time. I don't want to come off like saying Trump had good arguments, god no, this was the most unhinged he's ever been; when it wasn't just talking points, he was getting baited into even worse points because he's a fucking idiot, literally showing what Kamala said, he's extremely easy to manipulate. Imagining another world leader talking to the Trump that basically wasted 80% of his talking time doing shit like defending Charlottesville and January 6th makes it more clear than Kamala could put into words how dangerous him being the President is for foreign policy.

But this kind of thing, pointing out contradictions in liberal politics, is actually the reason people like him can actually gain prominence in the first place. He can lie and bullshit his way through 90% of his talking points, but when he points out the 10% of truth and hypocrisy in the system, he's right; and people know it's right. What happens when we get a Trump figure that's actually smart, and doesn't bring up Haitian immigrant bullshit, doesn't have JD Vance as a VP, doesn't have the baggage of a terrible first-term? IMO, that'd be a disaster for the Democratic Party. Trump is, despite all I said earlier about bringing that fascist fervor, ultimately a kind of weak candidate. There will be more iterations of Trump that are not as easy to win against, and I don't think the Democratic Party is ready for that in 2028. This election, already, should be light work for any competent political party, and yet before Kamala I was already basically accepting that Trump was going to win.

Well... Alright. Enough grilling.

For now, the debate did what was needed. Kamala Harris is, in my eyes, going to be the next President of the United States, and this is a good thing compared to the alternative, a fascist. But this is giving me big 2020 Biden vibes, just with a fresher face, and I also don't see a future where I'm actually materially better off. I just see the status quo, but shinier, with a younger face.
 
Basically agree with everything Ant said above, but you all read it so I don't need to quote it. We can run on "Not Trump" until he is dead, but given the people who poked their heads out of the well to try and challenge him like DeSantis, who would have been the nominee had Trump not run, is basically the same level of open fascism, I have little hope for the Democrats when dealing with LITERALLY ANY OTHER OPPONENT than the uniquely weak Donald Trump
 
Biden’s first term has ended with him becoming “Genocide Joe” forever.

Some will call it success, others will rightly condemn him for his beliefs, and his inaction.

This is not an objective take. Whether you hate Biden or not, the average American is materially better off in Sept 2024 than Sept 2020. That is what defines “success.” Our domestic issues run our politics and frankly most people here don’t give a damn about foreign policy unless it’s American soldiers spilling American blood. Self-interest is numero uno in the human brain.

For now, the debate did what was needed. Kamala Harris is, in my eyes, going to be the next President of the United States, and this is a good thing compared to the alternative, a fascist. But this is giving me big 2020 Biden vibes, just with a fresher face, and I also don't see a future where I'm actually materially better off. I just see the status quo, but shinier, with a younger face.

But you are better off. That’s life. Often the only choices are status quo vs. regression. Not sure where the expectation came from that the opportunity to make major progress is always there. Timing is everything.
 
But you are better off. That’s life. Often the only choices are status quo vs. regression. Not sure where the expectation came from that the opportunity to make major progress is always there. Timing is everything.

This framing is just objectively and inarguably wrong, and liberals pretending like not going backwards is the same thing as going forwards is a huge part of the reason we keep going backwards. You would be worse off than you currently are under Trump, that is a fact, and at least in my opinion that fact justifies voting for Harris. That does not mean you would be better off than you currently are under Harris, and that is absolutely grounds for both criticism and some introspection into the workings of the Democratic party and electoral politics in general, which, in case you hadn't noticed, is all ant's post actually did.

If every time we win we do nothing and every time the other guy wins we get dragged backwards, guess what, that means we're moving backwards.

EDIT: As an aside, how did this awful fucking site actually manage to make its UI even worse? How do I get rid of this "similar threads" garbage that recommends me threads that haven't been posted in since 2012?
 
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This framing is just objectively and inarguably wrong, and liberals pretending like not going backwards is the same thing as going forwards is a huge part of the reason we keep going backwards.
If you are referring to the framing my post, this response is a strawman.

The choices are not always forward vs. backward. Sometimes status quo is all you get, and it is better off. (Anyone who’s ever made a lateral career move has lived this)

You would be worse off than you currently are under Trump, that is a fact, and at least in my opinion that fact justifies voting for Harris. That does not mean you would be better off than you currently are under Harris, and that is absolutely grounds for both criticism and some introspection into the workings of the Democratic party and electoral politics in general, which, in case you hadn't noticed, is all ant's post actually did.

If every time we win we do nothing and every time the other guy wins we get dragged backwards, guess what, that means we're moving backwards.
If you think we have “done nothing” and are not any better off in September 2024 than in September 2020 or even January 2021 I don’t know what to tell you.
 
If you think we have “done nothing” and are not any better off in September 2024 than in September 2020 or even January 2021 I don’t know what to tell you.
I am sorry to say but we quite literally lost the abortion issue while Democrats were in power. Whether this is due to Trump ruining the Supreme Court or not is irrelevant, as it backs to the original point that Democrats almost exclusively stop negative change rather than go for positive change. Shoutouts to how we could have codified abortion rights between 2008 to 2010 but Obama described it later as not a high legislative priority. It can be argued a number of women are demonstrably worse off than in September 2020 or January 2021 by virtue of Republican led efforts to bring abortion to the states.

Edit: Trans people since the panic also, while I won't try to unilaterally speak for them, appear to be less materially safe than in 2021 due to popular figureheads like DeSantis pushing the trans grooming narrative to the forefront more than even the Trump Presidency years.
 
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I am sorry to say but we quite literally lost the abortion issue while Democrats were in power. Whether this is due to Trump ruining the Supreme Court or not is irrelevant,
Trump appointed 1/3 of the justices on the Supreme Court. You are either being disingenuous or intentionally misleading to blame that on the Biden Administration.

Shoutouts to how we could have codified abortion rights between 2008 to 2010 but Obama described it later as not a high legislative priority. It can be argued a number of women are demonstrably worse off than in September 2020 or January 2021 by virtue of Republican led efforts to bring abortion to the states.
Explain to us why abortion rights should have been a legislative priority over health care or pulling us out of the Great Recession. Roe vs. Wade was already the current precedent at the time and there was a Democratic President. How exactly was that supposed to go?

Democrats almost exclusively stop negative change rather than go for positive change.
The Democrats passed the infrastructure law, Inflation Reduction Act (which included the most sweeping climate provisions passed to date) and the CHIPS Act.. all during the worst pandemic in 100 years.

These are just bad faith arguments.
 
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Explain to us why abortion rights should have been a legislative priority over health care or pulling us out of the Great Recession. Roe vs. Wade was already the current precedent at the time and there was a Democratic President. How exactly was that supposed to go?
Because we had the legislative power to codify it and they campaigned on codifying it.

The Inflation Reduction Act is also barely a win when our actual landmark legislation was Build Back Better, which a DEMOCRAT forced us to negotiate down on.
 
Because we had the legislative power to codify it and they campaigned on codifying it.
So while the country was losing hundreds of thousands of jobs per month in 2009, your expectation was that Barack Obama’s political capital should have instead been spent on killing the filibuster to pass abortion rights legislation?

….that would have went over real well.

The Inflation Reduction Act is also barely a win when our actual landmark legislation was Build Back Better, which a DEMOCRAT forced us to negotiate down on.
You said no progress. While thousands of Americans were dying and supply lines were in shambles the Democrats still passed the most comprehensive set of climate provisions ever, along with the first major infrastructure law in decades, and the CHIPS act.

Sounds like progress to me.
 
So while the country was losing hundreds of thousands of jobs per month in 2009, your expectation was that Barack Obama’s political capital should have instead been spent on killing the filibuster to pass abortion rights legislation?

….that would have went over real well.


You said no progress. While thousands of Americans were dying and supply lines were in shambles the Democrats still passed the most comprehensive set of climate provisions ever, along with the first major infrastructure law in decades, and the CHIPS act.

Sounds like progress to me.
I did not say no progress. I specifically said, "almost exclusively stop negative change rather than go for positive change." Once again, you can tout the Inflation Reduction Act aaaaaaaall you like, but it does not stop the material reality that the plan we had was over TWICE as much monetary investment, and it was not a Republican, but rather a Democrat who intentionally poisoned the well and stalled for over a year, intentionally misleading the party into decoupling the bills, and then not voting for BBB anyway. This in itself is to my point. Democrats have the numbers to break the fillibuster and force their policies, but it is other Democrats who choose to be obstructionists and kneecap their own agenda. Whether its Liebermann in 08 over Obamacare or Manchin/Sinema in 2020 with the BBB plan/minimum wage increase respectively.

Let's also get out of the way that I am voting for the Democrats because marginal/no change IS better than negative change, but let's not wear rose tinted glasses about the Democratic Party when they basically handed the border issue to the right in the past four years in addition to the above examples of the party kneecapping its own legislative goals.
 
Are we shocked the guy who compared Biden's ousting to sexual assault has zero understanding of marginalized groups outside his own and continues to insist other marginalized people must be better off now than 4 or 8 years ago without listening to them saying "actually no I'm not"
 
I did not say no progress. I specifically said, "almost exclusively stop negative change rather than go for positive change." Once again, you can tout the Inflation Reduction Act aaaaaaaall you like, but it does not stop the material reality that the plan we had was over TWICE as much monetary investment, and it was not a Republican, but rather a Democrat who intentionally poisoned the well and stalled for over a year, intentionally misleading the party into decoupling the bills, and then not voting for BBB anyway. This in itself is to my point. Democrats have the numbers to break the fillibuster and force their policies, but it is other Democrats who choose to be obstructionists and kneecap their own agenda. Whether its Liebermann in 08 over Obamacare or Manchin/Sinema in 2020 with the BBB plan/minimum wage increase respectively.
You said Democrats do not go for positive change. That is a false statement.

And yes, Sinemanchin caused the BBB / IRA among other things to be far less expansive than it should have been. But you still are blaming the party as a whole, when it was 96% of Democratic Senators that were on board. If we want that kind of progress, we need to elect more Democrats. It’s just the reality of whipping votes.

Are we shocked the guy who compared Biden's ousting to sexual assault has zero understanding of marginalized groups outside his own and continues to insist other marginalized people must be better off now than 4 or 8 years ago without listening to them saying "actually no I'm not"
Which Americans were better off in 2020?
 
You said Democrats do not go for positive change. That is a false statement.

And yes, Sinemanchin caused the BBB / IRA among other things to be far less expansive than it should have been. But you still are blaming the party as a whole, when it was 96% of Democratic Senators that were on board. If we want that kind of progress, we need to elect more Democrats. It’s just the reality of whipping votes.


Which Americans were better off in 2020?
This is the second time you have put words in my mouth that I did not say. In my last post I retyped exactly what I claimed verbatim, but it seems I need to do so again.

"as it backs to the original point that Democrats almost exclusively stop negative change rather than go for positive change."

The person whom you quoted before may have asserted Democrats have done nothing, but at no point have I said the same thing. I have argued that the party fails to whip its members when they have the majority to pass their legislation and kneecap their own legislative goals throughout multiple recent administrations.
 
Good attempt to cheat the question by asking about "better" when the problem people have been saying repeatedly is that little to nothing is changing for the better, it's stagnant with slight scraps being the best anyone gets.
Then the issue lies with one’s perception of change. Large, sweeping change is not a reality of modern American politics. I am arguing that this is what it is, rather than arguing for or against what it should be. Change to most of the electorate is the question I asked - “are you better off in September 2024 than you were in September 2020?” That’s essentially what determines who wins. And politicians being forever self-interested will prioritize what they believe will win.
 
Not a reality of electoral politics, maybe, which is why so many people are tired of liberals endlessly droning on about how there's only 2 options and absolutely nothing else that can be done, but we should all just vote and vote harder and also "voters don't care about Gaza so it's not relevant" and whatever other ghoulish stuff gets said in the name of prioritizing electoral politics to the exclusion of anything else
 
Biden’s first term has ended with him becoming “Genocide Joe” forever.

Some will call it success, others will rightly condemn him for his beliefs, and his inaction.
Assuming Kamala wins, Biden will be remembered for selflessly stepping down (even though he was basically shoved) for the next generation, and for arguably being the most progressive president in the modern era. Similar to how Obama has near legendary status in the public eye despite the horrible atrocities he oversaw during his presidency. There are no good presidents when it comes to foreign policy.
 
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