Metagame NP: Stage 14 - The Phoenix (Oricorio-Pom-Pom banned post 45)

[Rabia]

October 1st is here, meaning tier shifts are here. Here are the relevant ones:

Quagsire moved from NU to RU
Talonflame moved from NU to RU
Umbreon moved from NU to RU

Necrozma moved from RU to NUBL
Overqwil moved from RU to NU

Inteleon moved from PUBL to NU
Bronzong moved from PU to NU
Gligar moved from PU to NU
Heracross moved from PU to NU
Kilowattrel moved from PU to NU
Milotic moved from PU to NU
Scream Tail moved from PU to NU
Slowbro-Galar moved from PU to NU
Staraptor moved from PU to NU
Tauros-Paldea-Aqua moved from PU to NU
Toxicroak moved from ZU to NU

Indeedee moved from NU to PU

Small but significant shift in terms of NU gaining and losing Pokemon. Talonflame leaving will be a huge change, as will the arrival of a great Spiker in Overqwil. Have fun posting :]​

 

[Phantomistix]

Big winners of the shifts:

RAIN
Rain has been teetering between meta and niche for quite a while now, and Overqwil should be the addition that pushes into a more solidified and common place in the meta. In the few games I have played with it today, I can already say that it has become a lot better and more consistent.

Kilo
Talon leaving means that Kilo is now the fastest unboosted mon in the tier. Despite the only defogger leaving, defog Talon was very uncommon in recent weeks so I don't view this as particularly meaningful. In fact, with the recent addition of Overqwil, that is one more Intimidate user that Kilo can punish with Competitive. Rain getting better is also good for Kilowattrel.

Mienshao, Toxicroak
Shao and croak in particular stands out to me among all the fighting types as they hated the talonflame matchup most out of the fighters. Shao can now run different coverage, TAxel being the one I expect to be the most common. Talon leaving also frees up LO Shao in terms of moveslots, and allows it to run moves like Fake Out easier. Croak doesn't have to think about clicking CC vs Gunk now, and doesn't have to worry about Sucker vs Wisp/Roost 5050s.

Iron Thorns
Doesn't really care about Talon rising, but the other 2 shifts are huge for a mon that was already picking up massive steam recently. Quagsire leaving means tera Grass can now be substituted more easily for other types that fit better into the meta, mainly tera Flying. Umbreon leaving also means one less mon that could threaten its setup with a nuclear Foul Play.


Big losers of the shifts:

GBro
Overqwil is back to terrorize the brotherman. Losing some of the tier's very scarce removal while gaining a new spiker is terrible for gbro too.

Cresselia
You might think it traded one bad matchup for another in losing Umbreon and gaining Overqwil, but Cress had outs against Umbreon with tera or forcing last mon situations to avoid Roar. Overqwil will have a much easier, and less predictable time punishing Cresselia, especially when you consider Moonblast being neutral and Overqwil being fine if tricked a Choice Scarf.

 

[shiloh]

moving my post from the last np thread to here instead:

Losing Talon is def the biggest shake up out of the three, though Umb / Quag were both solid mons.

The loss of Talon means the loss of the only viable defogger and the most splashable removal in the tier. We may see the rise of smth like Altaria but it lacks the splashablity that talon had, and its more likely we see an increase in boots spammy builds / rises in Tsar / Lugg / Tenta instead. Qwil dropping at the same time as well means we gained a really strong defensive spiker so curious to see the new hazard landscape as the tier evolves. I expect there to be a rise in boots builds followed by more knock centric hazard stack, since it will be much easier to run tera ghosts / ghost types to effectively keep hazards up, something that talon could blank in the past. Gligar in particular might rise a bit since it can knock / spike on its own.

The main benefit here is the loss of Flame Body Talon though, and I think thats pretty healthy for the tier, since it was holding back a lot of physical attackers from really shining. I think Croak is probably one of the biggest beneficiaries from this, since talon being gone means you are more free to spam cc / dont have to catch it w/ gunk on the switch since it can dodge sucker w/ wisp. Quag was also a fairly decent check to most croak sets so wouldn't be surprised to see it rise up even more than it has. The ability to drop rock coverage on loom / shao as well is fairly massive since they both have plenty of other moves they want to be running. Flygon / Shao also being able to spam u-turn a lot more freely (maybe more plume usage to punish this?) makes it a lot more difficult to deal with them.

Umb / Quag going I think matters more for some defensive teams though there are more replacements for the two of them that come to mind that make their loss not as big of an impact. Vap / Scream / Sylv for wish support, Incin / Overqwil / A-Muk for a dark type, and mons like Gastro / Gligar can be defensive grounds w/ spikes that can fit on those types of builds.

Overqwil is a super interesting mon though as a drop, and even tho it was our only one its still a cool piece for the tier. Giving us a second intimidate dark does overlap some roles w/ incin, and its kind of funny how I think both will have defensive sets & offensive sd sets. Defensive spikes sets are definitely going to be good as touched on w/ talon leaving the tier, especially since it has a pretty positive matchup into more removal atm. Also gives a solid cress check in return for us losing Umb, with the ability to run haze / taunt / tox etc. Think most sets will have Spikes / Barb Barrage and then two of Pain Split / Taunt / Crunch / Haze / Toxic, with Barrage also being potentially droppable?

I think the offensive SD sets are also really interesting, as it has a lot of tools SD incin doesn't. With a better speed stat in the first place, it has a much harder time being revenge killed. Though the weakness to Flygon is still there. It also has a decent prio option w/ tera water jet that can nab a ko on weakened flygon / shao, or even run smth more like a dice scale shot set like qwil-hisui did a while ago.

I think time will tell if Overqwil does stay viable / find a niche since it does compete with quite a few other good mons atm so it isn't super splashable with that opportunity cost, but I do think it'll be fun to play with. Overall this is a more tame shift, though I think the loss of Talon is going to shift around quite a bit of the meta and curious where it goes from here.

 

[chichenCookingHalo]

Oh, so this is the forum that discuss tiering run. Gonna move my thoughts from personal viability ranking post.

Based on the few weeks I played in NU, I dare say that the absence of Quagsire and Umbereon are of little importance. The absence of Talonflame is crucial in many team buildings. The newly arrived Overqwill will have be a strong competitor and check to Brambleghast, tier's strongest entry hazard user.
To begin, both

and

are setup-punishers. Whereas the former shrugs off buffed hits with Unaware and the latter takes a hit and strike back with Foulplay. However, the tier does not have too many set-up Pokemons. And the few of them who set up, namely

and

, have their own ways of punishing these anti-setup Pokemons. Thus D-Dance

is pretty much the only target of these Pokemons, and therefore the absence of Quag and Umbe will not make too much of a difference.
Quagsire and Umbereron do have other roles outside anti-setup. Quag spreads stealth rock and spikes, and Umbe passes wishes and spreads status. But their replacements are easy to find. Examples of replacements are as follow:

Tauros-Paldea-Aqua @ Leftovers/Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Raging Bull
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Physical Defensive Tauros-Aqua
With Intimidate and high physical defence, Tauros can enter against a +1 Flygon and hit back with Body Press that 2HKOs Flygon.
252 Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tauros-Paldea-Aqua: 96-114 (27.1 - 32.2%) -- 44% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Def Tauros-Paldea-Aqua Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 150-177 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
In addition, this set of Tauros is strong against many tier staples like Incineroar and Mienshao.

Scream Tail @ Leftovers/Rocky Helmet
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Psychic Noise
- Protect/Thunder Wave/Noble Roar/Encore
- Protect/Thunder Wave/Noble Roar/Encore
Physical Defensive Scream Tail
This set plays a similar role with Umbereon: Wish-pass, Status-spread, and Set-up punish in Encore. Psychic Noise is very valuable in many situations, like against

or prevent leftover recovery from

. Noble Roar is basically a turn-passing move. It ensures that Scream Tail would not be the setup entry for opposing Pokemon, and provides a non-Protect move that allow Scream Tail to stay on the field to get the Wish recovery. the 20 speed EV(263) is to outspeed max speed Base 70 (262).

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The absence of

matters a lot. It is the fastest Defogger, it spreads burn in Will-o-Wisp and Flame Body, it provides momentum with u-turn, its Brave Bird naturally strikes hard without investment, it can also go offensive with SD and acrobatic. Talonflame just did so well on so many fields that no other pokemon can do the same. Some possible replacements are as follows:

Scyther @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Defog
- Dual Wingbeat
- Close Combat/Quick Attack/Sword Dance
Defog Scyther
This set tries to replicate Talonflame's fast defog and dominance over Flying-weak Pokemons. However, Scyther unfortunately lost Roost this Generation, and thus lost longevity like Talonflame. Furthermore, it cannot spread burns. CC punishes opposing Incineroar and Muk that come in to Knock Off its boots.

Oricorio @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Dancer
Tera Type: Steel/Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 Spe
Bold Nature
- Defog
- U-turn
- Roost
- Air Slash/Revelation Dance
Defog Fire Oricorio
The stat of Oricorio is surprisingly similar to Talonflame, with the only big difference being Talon is way faster. But they have the same typing, bulk, and moveset, thus replacing Talon as much as possible. Oricorio also cannot spread burn. The speed is EVed to outspend max speed Base 70 (262). You can make it slower and put the extra EV onto bulk.
I played a few games with my old teams, simply replacing Talon with Oricorio. Missing Flame Body really hurts, the ability truly opens a pool of opportunity. Aside from that, Oricorio did what it is expected to do. Enter on ground/fighting/grass moves, click defog, u-turn out, and frequently click Revelation Dance Fire and Roost to keep momentum. I still won't say that Talon's spot is covered, but it's really hard to find a new Defogger.

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About

, I had been playing this mon in the NDOU rain team for quite a long time. Its main purpose is to check opposing grass types like Rillaboom. However, neither Rain nor Grass Terrain are popular play styles in NU, therefore I doubt if it would be success as a rain sweeper.
Overqwill learns Toxic Spikes and Spikes. Valuable trades in deed, but T-spike is not that strong in NU, a tier with many good Poison types.
This Pokemon has same typing as A-Muk, same Intimitate as Incineroar. But It do not have Knock Off, a powerful tool to have. Overqwill lacks switch moves that Incineroar has, and lacks the bulk that makes A-Muk reliable.

I discussed with a NU Ladder top-cut player. We both agreed that it cannot take A-Muk and Incineroar's spot. But he mentioned that Overqwill is an excellent hazard user. It has advantage over common Rapid Spinners like

and

. It can lay down its own Spikes and use Taunt to shut off opposing spikes. In addition, it has many switch in oppotunities thanks to its Intimidate, which allows it to spam Spikes and Barb Barrage, in the end of the day, Barb Barrage(50%) has the same toxic rate with Poison Touch Poison Jab (1 -70%x70% = 51%). What is more, is that this Pokemon does not fear Knock off, meaning it has free switch-ins on A-Muk and Incineroar to either spread spike on Muk or make Incineroar poisoned. Therefore, I think Overqwill actually deserves B+ as it is a strong competitor in the hazard war and checks many tier staples, including

,

,

,

, and

.

Here is a sample set

Overqwil @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Crunch
- Barb Barrage
- Taunt

A fun build utilize its access to SD and Scale Shot

Overqwil @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Scale Shot
- Crunch
- Liquidation

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Looking at previous posts,

will definetely be the new tier-defining Pokemon. It is now the fastest and strikes hard with stab Thunderbolt and Hurricane. Who knows, maybe Kilowattrel and Overqwill will Make-Rain-Great-Again.
I don't know if Kilo will turn to use Competitive ability with the Intimidations in the tier. I'd be happy if they do, because I like using Scarf Pawmot and hate Volt Absorb Kilowattrel.

may rise in usage, because now it counters Kilowattrel and does not need Tera Grass Blast for Quag and thus saves a move slot.

Aside from Kilo itself, I do think Fighting Pokemons will rise in usage. Even though Kilo is also dominating, Fighting types have less stress now without Flame Body, and they can now pray Kilo misses the crucial Hurricanes.
I am not sure if the meta is going to be Boot-Based. If it does, Knock Off will rise in usage and the meta will be hostile towards

and other Psychic or Ghosts. Will we see the rise of Kee Berry Cresselia, a Psychic type that absorb Knock Offs?
Guess we wait for the community to develop.

 

[Stories]

ok.

Spikes are already proving to be quite good in the current metagame, with prominent setters like Gligar, Brambleghast, and Orthworm who have all seen an increased usage.

I'm gonna be honest all our Rapid Spin users are quite terrible BUT Tsareena does get better with Talonflame gone. Tentacruel and Avalugg have always been middling Pokemon and only really fit on specific builds, while Talonflame could be found on just about anything. The addition of Overqwil is only just going to compound our lack of hazard control, and the scarcity will either make or break teambuilding by innovating Cincinno, Coalossal, etc. or just saying "fuck it" and running 6 boots mons.

​

I saw above that someone mentioned the strength of setup Pokemon and I think we've seen in SCL and NULT that Iron Thorns is WAY too volatile for a healthy metagame, and I would personally suggest taking action against it. The amount of variance in sets and unique counterplay for each one is way too different for how easily the Pokemon can take over games. Items, Tera types, and movesets all greatly change what can even hope to check this Pokemon, and one wrong turn (you bring Incineroar in to pivot and it's Clear Amulet, click Earthquake with Flygon and it turns into a Flying-type, go into Swampert and get hit with a Grass move) and now you're facing down at minimum a +1 +1 Tyranitar.

The Psychic assholes like Cresselia and even Uxie to an extent have felt extremely oppressive in the builder but not too overwhelming in a game-to-game basis. Bronzong is still stealing games but that Pokemon does more harm than good in the metagame for now.

Oricorio Pom Pom will NOT be using Defog. This Pokemon will continue attempting to 6-0 people at preview in the most dishonest way possible. Similar to Iron Thorns, different movesets have different checks; a CB Flygon will fold to a +1 Hurricane from offensive Pom Pom, but defensive Pokemon will just lose to Taunt QD sets 1v1.

Obviously this all says a lot about society (tera) but I think as long as tera isn't going anywhere (it shouldn't), we should be seeing action on some of the biggest abusers in the metagame, especially as we lose our best defensive pieces to the evil RU tier.

 

[Dr. Phd. BJ]

Big winners of the shifts:

RAIN
Rain has been teetering between meta and niche for quite a while now, and Overqwil should be the addition that pushes into a more solidified and common place in the meta. In the few games I have played with it today, I can already say that it has become a lot better and more consistent.

Kilo
Talon leaving means that Kilo is now the fastest unboosted mon in the tier. Despite the only defogger leaving, defog Talon was very uncommon in recent weeks so I don't view this as particularly meaningful. In fact, with the recent addition of Overqwil, that is one more Intimidate user that Kilo can punish with Competitive. Rain getting better is also good for Kilowattrel.

Mienshao, Toxicroak
Shao and croak in particular stands out to me among all the fighting types as they hated the talonflame matchup most out of the fighters. Shao can now run different coverage, TAxel being the one I expect to be the most common. Talon leaving also frees up LO Shao in terms of moveslots, and allows it to run moves like Fake Out easier. Croak doesn't have to think about clicking CC vs Gunk now, and doesn't have to worry about Sucker vs Wisp/Roost 5050s.

Iron Thorns
Doesn't really care about Talon rising, but the other 2 shifts are huge for a mon that was already picking up massive steam recently. Quagsire leaving means tera Grass can now be substituted more easily for other types that fit better into the meta, mainly tera Flying. Umbreon leaving also means one less mon that could threaten its setup with a nuclear Foul Play.


Big losers of the shifts:

GBro
Overqwil is back to terrorize the brotherman. Losing some of the tier's very scarce removal while gaining a new spiker is terrible for gbro too.

Cresselia
You might think it traded one bad matchup for another in losing Umbreon and gaining Overqwil, but Cress had outs against Umbreon with tera or forcing last mon situations to avoid Roar. Overqwil will have a much easier, and less predictable time punishing Cresselia, especially when you consider Moonblast being neutral and Overqwil being fine if tricked a Choice Scarf.

Great post from Phantom! Just thought I would add a couple more mons that are impacted by shifts

Winners

Talonflame is faster than Flygon and always threatens WoW, in addition to being able to punish choiced sets with Flame Body. Umbreon could eat hits from special variants, scout choiced sets with protect, and even Foul Play boosting sets. Quagsire is annoying if it isn't completely walled by sub dd/tera steel (which is basically non-existent with bronzong usage). If that wasn't enough, we were dropped another ground weak in Overqwil. Overall, checking Flygon has now become messier.


Inteleon benefits greatly from Umbreon rising, as that was one of the better special walls that can 1v1 it. Talonflame outspeeds non-scarf variants and threatens to chunk it with Brave Bird which becomes annoying if you take any chip at all, especially from hazards or a scarf Flygon U-turn for example. Water Absorb Quagsire was gaining traction in SCL, and I am sure Inteleon appreciate that leaving. Overqwil is getting blown up by any water move for the most part. Overall great news for Inteleon, who's speed tier just got a lot better.


With Talonflame leaving, the tier lost what is, in my opinion, its best form of removal. I know there are still Levitate mons in the tier (Flygon, Cresselia, Bronzong) and even common Boots users such as Incineroar, but hazard stacking seems much more rewarding in this meta. I see Spikers becoming a lot more valuable than they have been in the past. It is hard to include a winners section without giving attention to Overqwil, as that mon fits the current meta really nicely. It has a lot of tools that Incineroar and Alolan-Muk do not have, such as speed tier, Pain Split, Barb Barrage, Thunder Wave, and water coverage. Do not forget Overqwil enhances rain greatly as Phantom mentioned previously.

Losers

To me, this is the biggest loser of the shifts. Talonflame wasn't really good at switching into Vileplume or forcing it out. On the other hand, Umbreon and Quagsire are hard walled. To make matters worse, Overqwil dropped! I can see Taunt Overqwil becoming relevant, but it also just isn't bothered too much by Vileplume in general and can SD or Spike or whatever. All 4 shifts were bad for Vileplume imo, and the mons that rose were all great partners with it too. I can see it picking up traction again depending on what breaks out in the new meta.


You were able to Rock Tomb Talonflame, you sat on Umbreon with PH sets and could immediately threaten with CB Close Combat/SD, and Quagsire is self-explanatory. Overqwil is also annoying, as Spikes make it easier to chip and even offers more offensive teams the ability to pivot around SD + Bullet Seed + Mach + Filler sets. Overall not a good change for Breloom, but could also be worse.


Now, a lot of things gained viability with shifts. I do not think Incin is that big of a loser, but I do think the shifts were not very friendly towards it. Overqwil is now a competing dark type, but also something that can annoy Incineroar greatly with Intimidate + status. Talonflame was one of the things Incineroar capitalized on the most, and now that won't be seeing usage. Umbreon leaving is kinda meh, and Quagsire rising is a generally good asides from the occasional Trailblaze sets. I do not think Incineroar is a huge loser, but I do expect its usage and impact on the meta to drop off a little bit.

 

[Rabia]

I think Toxicroak is a pretty big winner of the shifts too. In part, this is because I expect rain to pick up some steam, and Toxicroak's quite good in that matchup for very obvious reasons (Dry Skin + strong priority = vibe checked). Also, though, it's one of the better options to exploit Overqwil for free setup, and Talonflame forced awkward lines because of the burn threat. I can also see Galarian Slowbro suffering a bit due to Overqwil's drop, which naturally helps out our froggy friend.

 

[Perla]

I think Toxicroak is a pretty big winner of the shifts too. In part, this is because I expect rain to pick up some steam, and Toxicroak's quite good in that matchup for very obvious reasons (Dry Skin + strong priority = vibe checked). Also, though, it's one of the better options to exploit Overqwil for free setup, and Talonflame forced awkward lines because of the burn threat. I can also see Galarian Slowbro suffering a bit due to Overqwil's drop, which naturally helps out our froggy friend.

This tier should be called TU

Not "NeverUsed" but "ToxicroakUsed"

 

[Stories]

I've heard the notion that these recent tier shifts were quite small as we only gained one Pokemon and only lost 3, and I've also heard rumors of a VERY impactful tiering decision pending so I'd like to explain why both of these are wrong to me.

Overqwil as a standalone Pokemon is already incredible, and one of the best Pokemon in the tier with its amazing typing, utility moves like Toxic, Taunt, Haze, and Spikes, and recovery in Pain Split. NU was already quite hellish in terms of hazard removing and with Talonflame gone and a potential A+ (ish) rank Spikes user this metagame is going to change very quickly. This isn't even mentioning the skyrocketing usage of Gligar and fair usage of Klefki, Orthworm, and Alolan Sandslash just for Spikes. Overqwil stands as a great Knock Off switchin thanks to its physical bulk and Intimidate, and the typing makes it an amazing check to Psychic-types that beat other Dark-types with Tera Fairy, like Cresselia and Uxie. Overqwil also gives Bronzong a very hard time. Although Overqwil doesn't get Knock Off like Alolan Muk, its higher speed and access to Spikes makes it almost an equal in terms of making progress while being a defensive Pokemon.

Talonflame leaving DOES mean Tsareena gets better, enabling a previously very poor hazard remover. Other hazard removers like Coalossal and Altaria boast a positive matchup against Overqwil. I think it would be very wise to wait to see what developments occur before making drastic tiering decisions. Although not many Pokemon rose or dropped, we're about to see a huge shift in the metagame in regards to hazards and how balanced teams will be structured with the loss of Talonflame and how they will manage hazards.

I haven't done any thorough testing with or against Rain teams yet, but they seem stronger than ever in this metagame; Snow teams are nearly non-existent, priority attackers like Lycanroc Dusk and Lucario are banned, and Pokemon that presented poor matchups to rain like Reuniclus, Noivern, Tera Dragon Krookodile, Umbreon, and Water Absorb Quagsire are GONE. The advent of Overqwil only diversifies the playstyle and I think the likes of Ludicolo, Kingdra, and Basculegion are wholly capable of overwhelming each other's checks if not winning outright against teams that lack the few options that are consistent into Rain. I would implore the council to keep a close eye on rain just as they did for sun teams a few months ago.

I spoke with Rabia privately about a suspect test on some controversial setup sweepers like Cresselia, Iron Thorns, and Oricorio Pom-Pom, and I think we see each other eye-to-eye in the sense that while these Pokemon are admittedly "dumb", they lack the results (so far) to justifiably try to remove them from the tier. As convenient as it is to just delete any Pokemon that has potential to sweep you, it's really lazy and a poor mindset I often have. While the prospect of these Pokemon proving to be too broken is definitely possible and even likely, I would enjoy waiting to see how this new metagame shapes out before taking action on them. Something I alluded to earlier that really concerned me was the idea that FLYGON might be suspect tested. This came as a huge surprise to me as there is absolutely no sentiment that Flygon is broken, warping, or anything of the sort here on the forums, and although I try to not stand downwind of the discord server, from what I can tell that sentiment isn't too heavily expressed there either. Now I was told that it was a common discussion in the council chat, and I would love some of those discussion points to be publicized with the community as I did back when I was on council, not only for transparency but also to know what the argument even is to ban Flygon. I talked to Pokeslice about it because he was one of the council members advocating for the ban, and after a long discussion with him he even said himself he wasn't sure if a suspect was the correct action to take (but maybe he was just saying this to get me to stfu).

Sadly I am taking a break from SCL after a few unfortunate weeks but this tier is really fun right now and building is a challenge (good challenge).

edit: I was going to make a case to NOT suspect Flygon but because I have no clue what the arguments are, I can't exactly make a response to nothing.

 

[McMeghan]

@ Flygon Potential Suspect

Not only do I think that Flygon has enough natural counterplay in the tier, but I also think it's a very healthy presence. Many offensive Pokemons would get much better without the presence of a good First Impression user to keep them or their potential tera types in check.

 

[Rabia]

So, to give some reasoning why Flygon suspect test has gotten serious traction, several members of council voiced desires to see one for weeks internally. The metagame hasn't really evolved to stop Flygon's continuous ascent above every other top-tier Pokemon, and Talonflame leaving is more of a buff to Flygon than a nerf because it frees up your potential Dragon Dance set techs (Substitute + Tera Steel becoming a lot less useful, for example).

Personally, I've been anti-suspect test on it the entire time because the arguments have mostly felt based around it being "centralizing" rather than broken. Centralization around a threat is fine. Sometimes, it's good even. Metagames benefit from having a key threat or archetype to develop around, and so long as that Pokemon or archetype doesn't outright inhibit skillful play, then I never find this argument to hold much water. Flygon's great for reasons beyond being too good of a wallbreaker or sweeper. It's our best Volt Switch blocker (relevant to find repositioning against Kilowattrel), it defensively offers a lot of useful resistances, and it offensively holds several other wallbreakers in check through First Impression.

Arguments for its brokenness so far have come from two angles: 1) Choice Band is too nutty because our Ground-type checks aren't all that, and 2) Dragon Dance can just tech to beat whatever checks you have with Tera types and coverage moves. It's hard for me to cogently push back here, as like stories, I guess I just disagree? I find that our tier has a lot of room to punish Earthquake locks through defensive Tera types and Pokemon like Oricorio-E, Cresselia, and Kilowattrel, and while Dragon Dance sets in theory can beat most of their answers, this assumes the Flygon user always has the perfect set for each encounter and finds room to set up in each battle. Flygon also suffers from being a Pokemon that needs multiple turns to go its way to really pull off a sweep, which'll always have me questioning its brokenness.

Pokeslice and zS I invite you both to post, as you were the most outspoken on wanting a suspect test on Flygon in the first place.

 

[Stories]

I appreciate Rabia playing devil's advocate for the sake of a conversation and I'd like to add on that I think Choice Band sets are honestly struggling a bit in a metagame where immunities to your STABs are so common and there are plenty of Pokemon that can midground like Swampert, Vileplume, Milotic, etc.. and CB Flygon doesn't really have room for Bronzong coverage.

Dragon Dance sets are of course really silly sometimes and it's generally a certified "tera moment" but I think we still have plenty of reliable offensive and defensive counterplay to it

 

[hammer798]

I'd generally prefer a survey before we get into actual action, as it has felt to me that the anti-Flygon sentiment is more of a vocal minority among the wider player base, although I could be wrong. I'm not personally convinced we need action on anything right now, but I definitely think getting some data on what folks actually think of Flygon, Mienshao (definitely got a lot stronger with Talonflame gone), and even Rain is valuable.

 

[Pika134]

I add my own thoughts on the Flygon situation. I do think suspecting / banning Flygon might be a bad idea and I’m not denying that in future Flygon might be too much for the tier. However, I think banning right now is just a bad idea and might make NU a lot worse. Plus I feel like we have enough answers to handle Flygon and for my experiences I never felt that Flygon wasn’t annoying nor broken.

 

[Be13costa]

I understand that the continuous dominance of Flygon ever since it Levitate its foot on the tier might seem worrisome never dropping from a A tier mon.

BUT

Like everyone is saying the reason behind that is not because of it overwhelming brokenness but because the many positive defensive and utility traits, really good speed tier wile still having enough offensive potential.

I said that on a earlier post after the ban of Gator, Flygon is indisputable best DD mon on the tier. This is for sure strong and can take games by itself so its a benchmark that we have in the tier builder. Do you lose to DD Flygon?

In the end I don't think it's enough and a small price to pay in other to have the best glue mon on the tier. Whenever you have a hole you just throw it in and the job is done.

BTW I'm the biggest Banded fan, and atm is just serviceable. Rain outspeeds you and 1hko and every balance build has 3 ground immunitys (Kilo, Flygon, Zong/Cress) , vapo/plume are still good and beats you too. FI is amazing but is more a emergency button than a win condition.

One last thing, I genuinely think (and can be completely wrong ofc) if Flygon get suspected will stay by absurd majority 80% + of not bans.

 

[zS]

Hi, I'm here to explain my reasoning on why I was so keen on getting flygon tested.

Flygon has been an overcentralizing force of the metagame for the past 4 or so months consistently being on top of the food chain and the whole metagame started shaping itself around it. While in normal circumstances this wouldn't be a bad thing, and actually a sign of a heatlhy metagame (ie sm/ss ou landorus-t) flygon sets itself apart from these kinds of healthy presences because it has shown a quite absurd capability to run away with games with the right last move / tera type. It also forces kind of strict building tendencies and enables way too many other threats that take advantage of how the metagame shaped itself around flygon. While flygon does have natural counterplay, it is still very limited and as I sad earlier in this post, became quite mandatory shaping the metagame in a way that simply doesn't allow for much room in the builder. and even if you, like most people, resort to using those natural checks (fairy cress, orthworm (bad mon), bronzong (gets abused hella easily)...), you'll just lose to some tera types (ie bronzong is setup fodder for tera ghost throat chop, orthworm loses to fire punch/mixed..). There's no denying that flygon is beatable and not conventionnally broken, and still brings a lot to the table, but i feel like the cons outweigh the pros on this one and it feels ultimately like a nuisance both in the builder and ingame.

while i'm at it, i'll also say that I wanted pompom gone first, as i think it's just completely absurd and flygon at least has arguments for its stay.

tag me on disc if u wanna discuss flygon more, i unfortunately do not have enough time to elaborate more than that at the time i'm writing this post, but i'll try to elaborate more if i find some time to do so. i'm also looking forward to seeing some discussion in this thread. Pokeslice your turn now

 

[etern]

Hi everyone, the NU Council has been discussing our next step after considering all the feedback we've received. Rather than proceed with an immediate Flygon suspect test, we've instead conducted a council slate addressing some more pressing issues that have cropped up or gained traction throughout this season of SCL and NU Seasonal. The following Pokemon were chosen to be voted on based on our personal discussions and community reception: Cresselia, Oricorio-Pom-Pom, Iron Thorns, and Overqwil. There is always the potential to revisit any of these banned elements in the future. Likewise, anything that is not banned may also be re-examined at a later date. As a reminder, an 8/12 majority is required for a Pokemon to be banned via a 12-man Council Slate. The votes and results are as follows:

Council + Rotating Council Votes

Thus, Cresselia and Iron Thorns have been banned from SV NU via Council Vote. Marty dhelmise

Oricorio-Pom-Pom was a single vote away from a ban, and thus will be our central focus moving forward. We also plan on monitoring Rain, Flygon, and Mienshao as they have received noticeable traction amongst the community. I encourage you all to share your opinions on these elements of the tier in particular as we navigate through this meta. Myself and Rabia will keep you all posted on any future suspect test plans as they arise. Until then, let us know what you think has improved with the removal of Cresselia and Iron Thorns, enjoy!

 

[Shengineer]

Sorry zS, I appreciate the $50 bribe but I just didn't think pom-pom is strong enough for a ban vote atm. Y'all can angry react me now as we adjust to our new avian overlords.

 

[Spiny-Z]

This & Quick Ban just sounds BS to me.
They weren't even close to being threatening for the tier.
Also people calling for a suspect/ban are also out of their minds.
Also why ever consider quickbanning & ?
NU BL is about to become its own tier at this point.
Nah man I'm done with this council for real.

 

[Rabia]

This & Quick Ban just sounds BS to me.
They weren't even close to being threatening for the tier.
Also people calling for a suspect/ban are also out of their minds.
Also why ever consider quickbanning & ?
NU BL is about to become its own tier at this point.
Nah man I'm done with this council for real.

k bye

 

[LessThanThreeMan]

Wanted to share my thoughts on the recent slate! Correct me if I'm wrong but I think a lot of these bans have more to do with tournament play than ladder play. I don't think these mons felt oppressive on the ladder but at the same time if I'm being honest ladder has felt less competitive more recently. That doesn't include everyone of course but it's evident a lot of people are still... figuring things out. (can we stop with the low ladder webs with random passive mons pls ty.) I think this may add to some of the confusion so I thought it was worth mentioning separately! Post got long so I put the specifics in hide tags. TL:DR in bold

Individual Mon Breakdown

Cresselia
Cresselia is matchup fish #1. CM sets are extremely hard to kill and are a very threatening win condition. Tera allows it to flip a lot of matchups, often requiring 2 mons to stop it (one pre and one post tera) or a limited number of counters that have to be kept healthy (sd incineroar, sd qwilfish, demon bronzong that is both un-statused and still has lefties, etc) Overqwil is a decent check that dropped but with its less than great spdef (and how it wants to be fast not bulky) was particularly prone to getting worn down by switching into moonblasts and/or hazards. In my opinion cress wasn't splashable but it was also very strong if you built around it. Incin could also be hit by power gem (although that didn't have much other utility). A lot of teams would try to get a toxic off on it and force it to tera and handle it with something like psyshock munkidori after. This mon had a noticeable impact on the builder but personally would have voted DNB here. Cress feels a lot like slowbro did to me except much less useful early to mid game. There were of course the trick scarf sets and t wave shenanigans too but I dont think any of that was problematic. Even with the innovation of some more offensive spreads this mon was set up fodder for a lot of things (granted a decent number of those just got banned as well post slowbro), and I think we had enough counterplay. I will say I never liked having this mon around so it may be for the best but I think we had enough to handle it.

Iron Thorns
I think I understand the iron thorns ban less than the cress ban. Very powerful mon, and it was good at leveraging its bulk to get DDs off especially with tera. Personally I don't think I've had enough issues with it/gotten enough freelo with it to consider it broken personally. As I mentioned above though I think this may have more to do with tournament play than ladder play, and I'm sure it was getting stronger with the hazard situation getting worse and worse in nu. Personally would have voted DNB here as well. I will say I found myself struggling to use this consistently so maybe it just wasnt the mon for me and that may be coloring my thinking. That was still my experience though.

Overqwil
For me it is a bit early to have strong opinions on Lord Overqwilliam. SD sets are very strong and hard to handle defensively, but it does feel like it is much easier to kill than incineroar. Spikes sets are strong and I think qwil opens up hazard stack teams a lot more and has great synergy with some of our rockers. I haven't used it on rain enough to have an opinion, but I do see how it could be scary. I think this is something to keep an eye on for sure.

Oricorio-Pom-Pom
Matchup fish #2. Pom pom is a very strong mon and has always been a threat. This thing runs away with game very quickly... but I think part of the issue is that not many people respect/prepare for pom pom. It was never meta (at least on ladder) like mons like cress so it running away with games is inevitable vs unprepared teams. I do think a watch list is the right move here too. Taunt and revelation dance sets, while looking very similar, have very different counterplay and this adds to how threatening this thing is. I think we need more development here though before we write it off as a ban though. I do think this is a likely ban candidate in the future but its hard for me to justify a ban when the teams that get destroyed are also often underprepared for it.

Flygon
I don't think flygon is broken. It's versatility (dragon dance, scarf, band, bug plate, draco eject pack, and probably other sets too like specs) and usage are undeniable. This is the mon of the tier. Centralizing isn't always a bad thing though. Unlike mew who was also very versatile and could run many sets, I think the reason it got banned was because of the strength of the NP draining kiss set, not because it had so many options. I don't think flygon has the same issue. All of its sets are manageable in my opinion. Flygon offers teams so much in 1 slot and it would be irreplaceable of course. While being very strong and good at different things I don't think any set is good enough on its own to warrant a ban. We do have a vocal group who are all very much in favor of a flygon ban, but I don't think this reflects the majority opinion here. Still at least if we do suspect it we can all stop arguing about whether it is broken or not xd Long live flygon meta

 

[Stories]

they lack the results (so far) to justifiably try to remove them from the tier

ok well nvm I guess. Goodbye to my favorite Scarfer

 

[chichenCookingHalo]

Like many other players posted earlier, I don't think banning

and

is a good idea.

I have to admit that these set-up Pokemons are definitely strong, which makes anti-setup mandatory in team building.
But I never think NU lacks anti-setup pokemons. I personally had fun with Roar

and

, encore

and

, haze

, and even Red Card

helped me win few games.

Similar to the

discuss in the post earlier, I don't think having the metagame "Centralizing to Certain Pokemon or Playstyle" is a bad thing. And banning these pokemons, which naturally have many checks, is definitely not wise.

Speaking of which, I also don't know where the

sus come from. I haven't seen the former on the ladder for a long time, and the latter has good usage but not even close to broken.

 

[Serviperhater]

Like many other players posted earlier, I don't think banning View attachment 678238and View attachment 678239is a good idea.

I have to admit that these set-up Pokemons are definitely strong, which makes anti-setup mandatory in team building.
But I never think NU lacks anti-setup pokemons. I personally had fun with Roar View attachment 678240and View attachment 678241, encore View attachment 678242View attachment 678244and View attachment 678245, haze View attachment 678247, and even Red Card View attachment 678248helped me win few games.

Similar to the View attachment 678250discuss in the post earlier, I don't think having the metagame "Centralizing to Certain Pokemon or Playstyle" is a bad thing. And banning these pokemons, which naturally have many checks, is definitely not wise.

Speaking of which, I also don't know where the View attachment 678252View attachment 678253sus come from. I haven't seen the former on the ladder for a long time, and the latter has good usage but not even close to broken.

usage does not correlate with brokenness especially on ladder for the case of pom-pom it’s been good usage in tournaments for quite a while.
while I don’t exactly agree with the bans all of those mons listed as antisetup are either unmons (articuno and Persian-a) or loose to 1+ iron thorns. and red card is very inconsistent. cress often required two mons to beat it in the teambuilder (pre tera and post Tera) and the dark types in the tier other than bombirder which no one would call a cress check have no reliable recovery so are worn down over the course of a game. thorns im less sold on for ban but it’s an incredibly threatening sweeper especially with tera that is incredibly hard to stop once it gets going.
pom-pom isn’t broken imo but it’s a powerful set up sweeper with the taunt or two attacks sets being able to pick and choose it’s checks with Tera types despite ladder hating it. qwilliam is honestly the scariest sd mon in the tier and was worth the council vote imo.

 

[PowerOfMemes]

with all this negative feedback, i’d just like the council to know that they are appreciated by me, as i, for one, enjoy these bans :)

[obviously, ppl can have discourse, i’m just saying i liked these bans]