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Metagame Convergence

quick d1 thoughts

:porygon2: extremely scary mon, max hp spa modest tanks every hit and always deals a million back. np is terrifying but it often finds that it doesnt need to click it.
:porygon-z: so like, this is p2 if it was lamer and more braindead. cant take a hit for shit but if your norm resist is dead good fuckin luck.
:primarina: no one likes belly drum cmon
:azelf: terrifying pokemon. if you thought mew was scary enough to deal with imagine mew movepool with 125/125/115 offenses and even better tools (psycho boost, lumina crash, magic guard, etc). can run everything between scarf, lo 4a, and whatever setup you want.
:zapdos-galar::okidogi::sneasler: unburden is goofy
:umbreon: in practice its irritated by a good deal of meta mons (p2, chesnaught, bounce/regen guys etc), is kinda passive, and holds a big uturn weakness but its still kinda difficult to envision fc umbreon as a healthy part of the meta.
:cresselia: regen is very cool, mbounce is better than screamtail cause screamtail takes 2 turns to heal. pure psychic movepool is so broken.
:ogerpon: lowkey cracked? this is basically rillaboom with 110 spe which is so good wtf. also enables cheesy unburden strats.
:landorus-therian: everyones running rocks pivot sets but sd spikes is also so good it just clicks and pukes spikes and kills stuff!! its sd gliscor but with 145 atk lmao, what a monster.
 
My thoughts on this are that sand looks really good considering there's no drizzle and heat rock to counter it. Unfortunately T-tar is the only setter with no moves bestowed upon it from the format.
Tyranitar @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock
Despite this, mons like Rampardos and Treads look like great sand abusers
Rampardos @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
Iron Treads @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Force
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Stone Edge
Electric Terrain looks good with setters better than Pincurchin being introduced
Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: Electric Surge
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Slack Off
- Volt Switch
- Thunder Wave
I also think the quark drive users won't improve but unburden and other terrain shenanigans will
Iron Moth @ Power Herb
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 124 Def / 132 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Substitute
- Sludge Wave
- Meteor Beam
Rillaboom @ Electric Seed
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Swords Dance
Overall I feel that traditional strategies will be overshadowed and overpowered by new combos like Unburden SD Rilla and Triage Sylveon
 
Eerie2024 said:
Unfortunately T-tar is the only setter with no moves bestowed upon it from the format.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse...
Hippowdon exists and gets a marginal amount of moves (rapid spin, knock off, spikes) and also has reliable recovery

Eerie2024 said:
Iron Moth @ Power Herb
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 124 Def / 132 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Substitute
- Sludge Wave
- Meteor Beam
Click to expand...
Click to collapse...
Iron moth gains the pretty nifty nasty plot here which helps it a fair amount.
Something that might be funny is cursed body pecherunt with knock, wisp, t wave
Pecharunt @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Recover
- Parting Shot / Knock Off
EDIT:
Also, why is contrary banned? If hoopa u is broken with it (it prolly is) just ban hoopa
 
idk porygon if is the problem or boomburst is but that stuff needs to be looked at. Timid specs 2hkos 252+ spd av toxapex from full while modest scarf 2hkos it with some minor chip or hazards up.
 
Been playing quite a lot last few days running sun. I think the main things that need banning are P-Z for its ability to 1 shot most of the meta and 2 shot p much everything else and trick the few walss. and zapdos G for just being a more op hawlucha
 
well if U ask me after a decent amount of laddering some broken things stick out:

Unburden. Dry skin Okidogi and Sneasler is strong; Unburden is Broken. especially with dire clawing the shit out of walls
Cresselia. there are much healthier alternatives to this beast that fullfill the healthy part of this mon very well. this mon in particular is overflowng with brokenness.
Primarina. Primarina isn't nearly as problematic when I'm using a rain team, which packs both wtaer resist and fast mon that threaten OHKO in the form of Waterpon, but any other type of team, let it be Avalugg/Glastrier/regice veil, Physdef porygon2 Trick room? whatever, offensive threats must be on the field 100% of turns, which is not possible with it hitting so hard anyways. Sure as hell Huge power is the broken thing here, sap sipper is healthy and strong, huge power is just that broken.

things I find very strong yet at least somewhat healthy: drought. Eruption drought is strong but Only that good into Frail and somewhat slow HOs.
Umbreon. Passive as hell, yet a good counter to brainless HO, unless it's carrying Unburden Fighting/poison dog/cat.
Suicune. Its CM+Boomburst set is passive into water resist, such as other waters. + waters can relatively easily slot in Roar In a team too weak to it. Regenvest is meh, regenvest is solid but that's it. Unaware walls can't be bulky on both sides and that's a drawback in a tier where you have to guess if greninja is sharpness Suicide lead, Mold breaker Swords dance, adap Nasty plot, adap swords dance, Protean pivot ceaseless edge edition, or some other shenanigan.
Tera ban. I am actually so Happy Tera is banned here, and that's from a radical Tera defender in Natdex OU. With Tera things like Barraskewda would be broken as hell, and that's unfun.
exteme speed being banned is also a very good thing I like, I rlly dont crave facing SD+Espeed entei w/ libero, thumbs up
PorygonZ. Never had I seen Something Pushing people to actually play good teams i=even in Relatively lowladd, and reading its set is easy enough to find easy counterplay. specs? slow as hell. scarf? take a hit and OHKO back, if ur team is not full frailies, it's largely doable.
Cosmoem. it's very Bulky with eviolite, Able to support all kinds of teams, from rain to TR, thanks to its huge movepool and recovery options, and wide variety of abilities (magic bounce is the best imo)


mixed opinion
triage. it's on pure fairies only, and, sure, they got coverage like psy-shock/chic, flamethrower and shit, but no fairy I've seen yet realistically beats bulky steels like Copperadjah and eviolite Bisharp, Bisharp having the advantage of outspeeding Sylveon.
Drain punch triage is something unavailable with Swords dance, and the only realistic fairy to abuse it would be granbull... yea. plus Draining kiss' low BP, it's easily Roar/whirlwind'd away by the same boolki waters that answer to Suicune like Water absorb/unaware swampert, suicune itself, and milotic.
Dire claw
ehhh it's broken on Okidogi that gets many turns of boolkiness to use it, but that's an okidogi problem, maybe I shoula put that one in the broken section.
Light clay being banned. Aurora veil teams are so underwhelming with Ice types already struggling to slot the 4 moves they want, Rapid spin, recover, knock off, flip turn, with aurora veil being there, and Aurora veils Being HOs, having the setters have sth else than boots as an item would do good to Hstack, so I definetely don't think Light clay ban is that mandatory. As of dual screen, grimmsnarl doesn't converge anything, Tinkaton doesnt get a pivot move since magearna is banned, same goes from spiritomb as it doesn't get access to parting shot last I checked, so I don't think this'll be overwhelming.




sad we don't get rapid spin/stone axe/knock off/roost - battle armor Shuckle, eh
 
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Some fun things:

Garchomp (conv. mons: Flygon) now gets Dragon Dance
Azelf (conv. mons: Espathra, Mew, Reuniclus, Deoxys-Defense) now gets every single move + Lumina Crash, Magic Guard, Psycho Boost
Meloetta (conv. mons: Indeedee) now gets Psychic Surge + Expanding Force
Chandelure / Typhlosion-Hisui (conv. mons: Skeledirge, Ceruledge) now gets Torch Song, Unaware, Slack Off
Raikou / Bellibolt (conv. mons: PINCURCHIN) now gets Electric Surge, Slack Off, Toxic, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Scald
Greninja (conv. mons: Samurott-Hisui) now gets Ceaseless Edge, Sharpness, Sucker Punch
Landorus-Therian (conv. mons: Gliscor) now gets Poison Heal + Spikes. Enjoy!
Every single pure grass (conv. mons: Rillaboom, Ogerpon-Teal, Shroomish, Shaymin) now gets Grassy Surge, Grassy Glide, Poison Heal, Spikes, Seed Flare, Ivy Cudgel
Umbreon (conv. mons: Persian-Alola, Zoroark, probably a couple more) now gets Fur Coat, Knock Off, U-turn.
Dragonite / Dragon-Flyings (conv. mons Dragonite, Salamence, Altaria) now gets Brave Bird, Wisp, Moxie, Multiscale, Intimidate
Thundurus-Therian / Electric-Flyings (conv. mons Rotom-Fan, Thundurus-Therian, Zapdos, Kilowattrel) now gets Roost, Hurricane (Thundy-T & Rotom-F)
Iron Moth (conv. mons: Salazzle) now gets Nasty Plot
Iron Hands (conv. mons: Pawmot) now gets Iron Fist, Mach Punch, Double Shock; other way around Pawmot gets Swords Dance, Earthquake, Play Rough

Some broken things:
Primarina (conv. mons: Azumarill) Belly Drum is BS, ban this thing
Porygon2 (conv. mons: Dudunsparce, Porygon-Z) Nasty Plot, Boomburst - not sure if this is broken but it sure is funny to 2HKO everything that isn't a ghost
Cresselia (conv. mons: everything that Azelf has above) it's bulkier, it abuses Regen, it's broken.
Unburden (Zapdos-Galar, Okidogi, Sneasler) self-explanatory
 
Some fun things:
Sizzlipede & Snom said:
:Garchomp: (conv. mons: Flygon) now gets Dragon Dance
:Azelf: (conv. mons: Espathra, Mew, Reuniclus, Deoxys-Defense) now gets every single move + Lumina Crash, Magic Guard, Psycho Boost
:Meloetta: (conv. mons: Indeedee) now gets Psychic Surge + Expanding Force
:Chandelure: / :Typhlosion-Hisui: (conv. mons: Skeledirge, Ceruledge) now gets Torch Song, Unaware, Slack Off
:Raikou: / :Bellibolt: (conv. mons: PINCURCHIN) now gets Electric Surge, Slack Off, Toxic, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Scald
:Greninja: (conv. mons: Samurott-Hisui) now gets Ceaseless Edge, Sharpness, Sucker Punch
:Landorus-Therian: (conv. mons: Gliscor) now gets Poison Heal + Spikes. Enjoy!
Every single pure grass (conv. mons: Rillaboom, Ogerpon-Teal, Shroomish, Shaymin) now gets Grassy Surge, Grassy Glide, Poison Heal, Spikes, Seed Flare, Ivy Cudgel
:Umbreon: (conv. mons: Persian-Alola, Zoroark, probably a couple more) now gets Fur Coat, Knock Off, U-turn.
:Dragonite: / Dragon-Flyings (conv. mons Dragonite, Salamence, Altaria) now gets Brave Bird, Wisp, Moxie, Multiscale, Intimidate
:Thundurus-Therian: / Electric-Flyings (conv. mons Rotom-Fan, Thundurus-Therian, Zapdos, Kilowattrel) now gets Roost, Hurricane (Thundy-T & Rotom-F)
:Iron Moth: (conv. mons: Salazzle) now gets Nasty Plot
:Iron Hands: (conv. mons: Pawmot) now gets Iron Fist, Mach Punch, Double Shock; other way around Pawmot gets Swords Dance, Earthquake, Play Rough

Some broken things:
:Primarina: (conv. mons: Azumarill) Belly Drum is BS, ban this thing
:Porygon2: (conv. mons: Dudunsparce, Porygon-Z) Nasty Plot, Boomburst - not sure if this is broken but it sure is funny to 2HKO everything that isn't a ghost
:Cresselia: (conv. mons: everything that Azelf has above) it's bulkier, it abuses Regen, it's broken.
Unburden (Zapdos-Galar, Okidogi, Sneasler) self-explanatory
Click to expand...
Click to collapse...
I would like to add to the list of problematic things above the existence of Triage Florges, which thanks to the +3 Priority of the moves and Florges' solid bulk (especially Special Bulk) makes it very hard to counter if you are not running the appropriate checks for it (which at this point is basically just Psychic Terrain, or a good bulky Fire/Steel type that resists Giga Drain and DKiss (but be careful, this thing has good coverage!))

That and Unburden I think are the two hardest to deal with things in the meta at the moment. There are a lot of powerful options currently on ladder and the meta has some fresh blood in this revitalized state, so I imagine if there are other broken elements they will make themselves known soon.

Probably not broken things that also did not get mentioned above:
:suicune: Liquid Voice Boomburst (thank you Popplio and Finizen) and Take Heart (the one time anyone says "thank you Phione") makes this a useful Pokemon both offensively and defensively.
:cinderace: among other mono-Fire types, this is one that is fast and strong, and Drought-boosted Pyro Balls hit very hard if you are unprepared.

You could easily create a much longer list of threats that have appeared on ladder, and I suspect many stronger threats will appear in response to the ones mentioned in the past couple posts. I cannot wait to see what you all come up with and also what the council will choose to ban
 
Hi im the guy that pioneered the Liquid Voice Boomburst Suicune thing probably
:sv/suicune:
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Voice :brionne:
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
  • Boomburst :finizen:
  • Take Heart :phione:
  • Roost :prinplup:
  • Stored Power :vaporeon:
Basically, Take Heart up, Stored Power makes it very difficult to wall as any fat water resist just gets stored powered, though I may look into other moves in the future, Liquid Voice Boomburst is the star of the show here, 140 BP Water Stab Hurts, Even uninvested, and setting up with this thing is incredibly easy. Pair it with things that can cripple fat, setup-proof mons, or other cm sweepers, good revenge killers, regen tanks, hazards, knock spam, whatever really, anything to help remove options the opposing team has to bust through suicune or remove it safely. Take Heart gives you status immunity which is normally a crippling weakness of these sorts of sweepers. It is still dealt with very well by taunt and unaware, so you do have to watch out for that.
Could be broken, could just be really good, up to yall.
So some thoughts on the meta from what I've experienced so far!
(They are quite extensive so I put them in a hide menu)
:Zapdos-Galar::hawlucha: :okidogi::sneasler: (And to a lesser extent):mienshao::hitmonlee:
Fuck all of these guys, theyre hell to deal with when their boosts can be slapped on to real mons or can just be given outrageous coverage, that makes them incredibly difficult to wall, and impossible to rkill, especially with their incredibly good bulk and priority resistant typings. Imo unburden itself should be looked into as I can't pinpoint any one of these to be "the issue" but unburden definetly is.
:primarina::azumarill:
Very Stupid Mon, I think it should go without saying that an azumarill with 76 base attack, better speed, bulk, movepool, and just anything else it could really want, could suffice being called broken.
:roaring moon::zweilous:
I haven't seen anyone mention this, but hustle roaring moon is kinda stupid, throw on a choice band and spam knock till the world ends. Granted the mon is inconsistent, and thus many people don't want to run it, being ruined by unburden fightings, triage fairies, and its 80% accuracy, but throw this thing in against like a balance team and itll fucking shred it to pieces. On the flip side though, proto Hydreigon is baller so ban Zwei instead
:torkoal: :chandelure: :typhlosion: :skeledirge:
Sun is annoying, I don't think its broken, but maybe thats just the take heart suicune talking. Fire types are incredibly strong in this format regardless of what theyre running.
:decidueye-hisui:
I hate triple arrows. Idk if its broken or not but god damn its just infuriating.
:porygon-z:
Oh yeah. Some facet of this mon needs to be fucked with. Either ban Boomburst (this one is a bit more contentious), or just ban the damn thing itself
:cresselia:
Okay, done with the negativity, onto the cool things
Really versatile mon that functions as a good glue on tons of teams, I've seen it run a variety of sets, and while it struggles with passivity, you could definetly spec it to take advantage of that assumption.
:meloetta::indeedee:
Actually so baller, trick scarf expanding force my beloved, finally gets good coverage, insanely strong stab, and loves to u-turn for free or trick bulky darks that want to switch in
:hydrapple:
This mon is legit now btw, gets way better coverage, u-turn, apple acid, I really like an offensive AV set, it can come in, sponge hits, and dish out heavy damage.
:landorus-therian: :toxic-orb:
Mon is fucking amazing and can (and probably should) be thrown on every team. One of the all time greats of the metagame. Unholy Lovespawn of Lando and Gliscor, who could ask for more?
:skarmory::corviknight:
the steel/flyings are pretty good, use whichvever, Skarm has better physbulk, Corv is a bit more versatile, best hazard removal in the tier imo, can also set hazards very proficiently, arent too passive, and are amazing at generating momentum.
:comfey: :florges:
Idt Triage is an issue. If you have a well balanced team it just kinda clanks off, psychic terrain is an easy workaround and very good atm, but honestly i respect tf out of these guys rn because they help put the unburden guys to bed
:greninja::crawdaunt::samurott-hisui:
Absolute Banger mons that are fairly versatile in function, though Gren SD is probably the best set of the bunch, with adaptability, ceasless edge to pressure spikes, and incredibly strong crabhammers, just absolutely incredible mons
:tinkaton::klefki:
I mean its aight, nothing huge but it has good utility, but overall has underwhelmed me since the clay nerf, as it should
:toxapex:
Really cool mon in the format, more people should use it
:Iron Crown:
Incredibly strong breaker with a very diverse movepool, good utility, honestly any of the steel/psys are cool to use, very healthy mons with a lot of interesting options and nice coverage.
:fezandipiti: :weezing-galar:
Pretty good mon, Obv its the neutralizing gas guy, but god damn people yall gotta try out levitate its legitimately so good and completely shuts down a ton of mons coverage.

okay i rambled too much those are the thinkers yall enjoy the meta, spread thoughts, test new things, peace
 
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Sizzlipede & Snom said:
Some fun things:

Garchomp (conv. mons: Flygon) now gets Dragon Dance
Azelf (conv. mons: Espathra, Mew, Reuniclus, Deoxys-Defense) now gets every single move + Lumina Crash, Magic Guard, Psycho Boost
Meloetta (conv. mons: Indeedee) now gets Psychic Surge + Expanding Force
Chandelure / Typhlosion-Hisui (conv. mons: Skeledirge, Ceruledge) now gets Torch Song, Unaware, Slack Off
Raikou / Bellibolt (conv. mons: PINCURCHIN) now gets Electric Surge, Slack Off, Toxic, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Scald
Greninja (conv. mons: Samurott-Hisui) now gets Ceaseless Edge, Sharpness, Sucker Punch
Landorus-Therian (conv. mons: Gliscor) now gets Poison Heal + Spikes. Enjoy!
Every single pure grass (conv. mons: Rillaboom, Ogerpon-Teal, Shroomish, Shaymin) now gets Grassy Surge, Grassy Glide, Poison Heal, Spikes, Seed Flare, Ivy Cudgel
Umbreon (conv. mons: Persian-Alola, Zoroark, probably a couple more) now gets Fur Coat, Knock Off, U-turn.
Dragonite / Dragon-Flyings (conv. mons Dragonite, Salamence, Altaria) now gets Brave Bird, Wisp, Moxie, Multiscale, Intimidate
Thundurus-Therian / Electric-Flyings (conv. mons Rotom-Fan, Thundurus-Therian, Zapdos, Kilowattrel) now gets Roost, Hurricane (Thundy-T & Rotom-F)
Iron Moth (conv. mons: Salazzle) now gets Nasty Plot
Iron Hands (conv. mons: Pawmot) now gets Iron Fist, Mach Punch, Double Shock; other way around Pawmot gets Swords Dance, Earthquake, Play Rough

Some broken things:
Primarina (conv. mons: Azumarill) Belly Drum is BS, ban this thing
Porygon2 (conv. mons: Dudunsparce, Porygon-Z) Nasty Plot, Boomburst - not sure if this is broken but it sure is funny to 2HKO everything that isn't a ghost
Cresselia (conv. mons: everything that Azelf has above) it's bulkier, it abuses Regen, it's broken.
Unburden (Zapdos-Galar, Okidogi, Sneasler) self-explanatory
Click to expand...
Click to collapse...
Azelf is not original enough. if u want azelf to kick ass, do Dragon dance Magic guard LO with flare blitz and close combat coverage with phototn geyser stab, that hits super strong, + azelf lures in special walls who get bodied by its strong Life orb boosted moves, wether they like it or not

I think the meta is too unstable for Nasty plot speed booster moth to find its place just yet, but that's maybe just me playing TR and Rain a lot

and I think Iron hands is banned, I dont want that fat ass to just take hits and revive two mons so basically a 7v6, except if it's also hitting hard or doing utility, it'd be a 7.5v6/8v6
 
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I feel skeledirge is pretty good into the current meta. It mainly uses it's usual set but instead of hex it runs infernal parade. Has decent synergy with wheezing G (NGas is bait, use levitate) as two defensive mons.
 
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this meta's pretty fun so far, been laddering for a bit and peaked at #18 (not suuuper impressive because it's day 2 but still) so i feel like i should give my thoughts on it. it's decently balanced, fun to build and play, and very diverse both offensively and defensively. that being said, the meta does have some issues:
  • :primarina: huge power should've been banned from day zero. primarina's much too strong with it as a belly drum sweeper or band breaker, especially since dondozo isn't legal. there's a reason this is standard operating procedure in every om where a mon besides azumarill or diggersby gets it. i shudder to think of what would have happened if diggersby were in this gen for ursaluna to converge with…
  • :okidogi: unburden should probably go. both okidogi and galarian zapdos tend to instawin if positioned correctly, and there are so many good pivots and terrain setters in this meta that a trained ape could position them correctly. even priority isn't a surefire way to stop okidogi if its setter of choice is psychic surge meloetta
  • :florges: triage is ridiculous on both florges and sylveon. stab priority draining kiss makes these things unrevengekillable and stored power means they don't have any defensive answers either. the only way to prevent triage users from straight-up winning immediately is to pressure them too hard to set up, which is really hard if it's, say, grassy seed florges with gterrain recovery
  • :porygon-z: adaptability boomburst coming off of 135 spa is just unacceptably strong. you shouldn't have a chance to 2hko blissey with a neutral special non-psyshock move off of specs, it's just not right. same goes for porygon2, but it trades the raw power for massive eviolite bulk that makes setting up a nasty plot really easy
  • :suicune: liquid voice boomburst off of this is not as strong as porygon-z or even porygon2 but it's still uncomfortably strong. i think the problem might lie with boomburst as a move and i wouldn't be opposed to a ban on it, since there are at least three borderline-problematic mons with it
  • :landorus-therian: lando-t with gliscor's kit is even more braindead and annoying than gliscor already is. this thing just kinda never dies, can't be statused, absorbs knock, and the sd set has nearly no defensive counterplay. i'm not calling for action on it just yet, but this is definitely something to keep an eye on
  • :darkrai: i haven't used or encountered any sleep strats yet, but i know for a fact they're out there. i think we should be proactive and switch to sleep moves clause before someone figures out how to ruin everything with prankster hypnosis something-or-other, and also because sleep moves clause just allows for a more competitive meta in general
  • :kingambit: honestly i just fuckin hate this guy in any meta where it's allowed. i don't care that it doesn't get anything new, this is a cheatermon and i want it gone
and now, some mons i find cool that i haven't seen people talking about:
  • :iron crown: how are more people not talking about this guy? doom desire off of 122 spa with volt switch to pivot puts insane pressure on opposing teams, psychic noise shuts down a lot of the degenerate stall strats as well as triage users (ban triage anyway), and levitate lets it contend defensively with a lot of really good mons, especially stuff like lando and grasspon if they're not running knock off. i personally like running av with tachyon cutter as the fourth move for strong immediate stab, but there are a lot of options for that fourth slot thanks to the wide movepools of jirachi, metagross and bronzong. if you'd rather ditch the vest and run a status move, wish strikes me as something that could be useful, or maybe stealth rock, or perhaps even something like hypnosis or metal sound to really punish doom desire switch-ins
  • :fezandipiti: really fantastic anti-meta mon. neutralizing gas is a nice fuck-you to about 90% of the meta, defog is especially good in an environment where hazards and terrain are commonplace, and the defensive profile of poison/fairy is just really good in general. it's especially fun to flip the script on poison heal mons after they've sat around building up the toxic counter for about a dozen turns or so
  • :sinistcha: this is my personal secret tech. i've seen like one other person besides myself running sinistcha but it's an absolute demon with a ton of really good matchups and insanely useful tools. brambleghast's kit is kind of nutty—it adds spikes, rapid spin, u-turn, and leech seed to the mix, all of which are really good on sinistcha alongside its existing movepool. if you don't want to keep heatproof (it's perfectly fine to do so), harvest from trevenant boosts your longevity by a ton with sitrus, or you can run colbur berry to sorta-remove your dark weakness while serving as a knock absorber. sinistcha is an incredible mon in this meta and has proven itself one of the most important members of the team i used to peak where i did
overall, this is a strong start and i'm looking forward to see how things develop over the course of the month
 
I agree with you all on the things that should be on the radar:

  • Boomburst: :porygon2: / :porygon-z: won't be the same without this move, so I'd suggest to restrict Boomburst to native users.
  • Huge Power: it should be restricted to :Azumarill: as well, :Primarina: has just better Atk and Speed to abuse. Most of meta simply ban this ability.
  • Unburden: I can't tell if it should be restricted to native users or simply banned, but it's easier to spam thanks to the larger variety of terrain setters (:indeedee: / :rillaboom:/ :pincurchin:)
  • Triage: I think it's manageable for now but you have to consider this ability when building.
  • :cresselia: : not broken imo but it gets everything it needs: Regenerator/Magic Guard from :Reuniclus:, U-Turn from :Azelf:, offensive tools with Lumina Crash :espathra:, Iron Defense/Hazards with :deoxys-defense:..the list goes on. In other words it can run many roles. Pure Psyching is a terrible typing but it brings so many cool things to use.
 
Dorsia said:
I agree with you all on the things that should be on the radar:

  • Boomburst: :porygon2: / :porygon-z: won't be the same without this move, so I'd suggest to restrict Boomburst to native users.
  • Huge Power: it should be restricted to :Azumarill: as well, :Primarina: has just better Atk and Speed to abuse. Most of meta simply ban this ability.
  • Unburden: I can't tell if it should be restricted to native users or simply banned, but it's easier to spam thanks to the larger variety of terrain setters (:indeedee: / :rillaboom:/ :pincurchin:)
  • Triage: I think it's manageable for now but you have to consider this ability when building.
  • :cresselia: : not broken imo but it gets everything it needs: Regenerator/Magic Guard from :Reuniclus:, U-Turn from :Azelf:, offensive tools with Lumina Crash :espathra:, Iron Defense/Hazards with :deoxys-defense:..the list goes on. In other words it can run many roles. Pure Psyching is a terrible typing but it brings so many cool things to use.
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I disagree with your view on boomburst; Counterplay is Very doable, porygonZ being frail and slow, p much needing Webs/choice item, and porygon2's bulk only really affecting Neutral attacks, and fighting types are very common, P2 at best trading for 2v1 on unprepared teams. as I said earlier, it's just pushing people to run better teams. And Cresselia is, imo, broken, it pushing its tools all a bit over the line; not by much individually, but you realize that it's a broken Stored power mon, broken regen mon, broken Physdef Lumina crash mon, always slightly iover the edge whatever its roll is.
I dont think Restriction is what is needed for huge power, just ban. restricting would be complex for not doing anything, as Azumarill isn't nearly as good as prim so people will just drop it sooner or later and sap sipper still being a healthy option for prim to abuse makes me think that Huge power ban is the solution over restrict/Azu Ban. Unburden is simply so broken, especially on okidogi, and god thanks Gamefreak for Slurpuff is not in the game.

oh and Cinderace is very annoying, CB cinder doing 2.25 times more damage with yro ball, fast uturn, whereas things liike magmortar have Drought and are healthy, for being slow, and not pivoting out of the walls so easily.


crazy how 4MSS is so super common in this tier, I think it's good as it forces players to think before using a bulky water, for example: Will it flip turn? spikes, rapid spin, knock, recover, Roar even? Will it scald, take heart, what is better? not like other OMs where one goes "aight, broken shi goes VROOM"

Idt Restrictions are gon be implemented, as it just ruins a bit the Point of the tier, but if they ever do, Rage fist is one move that should be freed and rezsticted. in such a powercrept meta It's not crazy of me to think Annihilape would not be that broken. an offensive boomburst immu is good, imo

Besides, Unburden is the problem and not, say, terrains. Ogerpon being able to in, CB grassy glide is something that was een before with regular Gorilla, just a strong RK that is a grass type, not that strong.
DaddyBuzzwole said:
:darkrai: i haven't used or encountered any sleep strats yet, but i know for a fact they're out there. i think we should be proactive and switch to sleep moves clause before someone figures out how to ruin everything with prankster hypnosis something-or-other, and also because sleep moves clause just allows for a more competitive meta in general
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darkrai is banned, lad. if anything we should worry about no guard hypnosis Ghostground.
 
Kin+ak (✧∇✧) said:
I disagree with your view on boomburst; Counterplay is Very doable, porygonZ being frail and slow, p much needing Webs/choice item, and porygon2's bulk only really affecting Neutral attacks, and fighting types are very common, P2 at best trading for 2v1 on unprepared teams. as I said earlier, it's just pushing people to run better teams.
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While ig it’s fair to assess P-Z that way, it doesn’t really lose anything for running scarf, it’s already so ludicrously powerful that it can just run it for free and pressure insane damage on any non unburdened up fighter or a ghost, especially in a meta where good hazard setters are so easy to come by.
 
Kin+ak (✧∇✧) said:
PZ with scarf is hard hitting, and can trade 2v1s, but contrarily to the VAST majority of Broken mons, a Team featuring PW as its only good mon won't succeed like, ever.
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who's out there building teams with only one good mon? this is a silly thought experiment that twists the definition of "broken" until it's nearly impossible to fulfill. scarf pz played at even a mediocre level claims at least one mon every time it comes in unless you're using the even more broken strategy of unburden, and that's not healthy. specs pz has a chance to 2hko regenvest regirock with a resisted move (unless you invest in spdef) and is a guaranteed 2hko on blissey (unless you also invest in spdef), and that's also not healthy. p2 consistently trades more than 2v1 because of how hard it is to kill, and guess what that isn't? if you guessed "healthy", you win a free trip to the top of the ladder, paid for entirely by the porygon line! listen, boomburst is not lasting the entire month and we all know it. we've got two, arguably three mons that are broken with it and there's more on the way (look out for clawitzer on ladder, folks). so we might as well get it out sooner than later
 
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I really think that the issue isnt specific to mons but the move boomburst itself is too strong. Its a 100 acc 140 pb no drawback move, which makes anything with semi decent stats and decent ability( adapt, liquid voice) broken. Suicune has a lot of sets but only the one with boomburst is broken. Both porygons stop being so oppressive against fatter structures without boomburst.

Restricting boomburst sorts this mess out with the least amount of bans.
 
Magic Bounce guessing games feel horrible for everyone involved. The removal is incredibly solid in convergence with stuff like Regenvest Garg/Suicune, regular Suicune, and more being able to clear the field very freely, and I question how useful forcing folks to guess whether the Cress is Mbounce, Mguard, or some other ability adds to the meta.

Boomburst is similarly just way too much power to be spread this freely. Every single special attacking water can and should run it, even if Suicune is basically the only decent special water left in the format. This also applies to P-Z and P-2.

Edit:
Unaware also pretty silly, though its managable.
 
Honestly Iron Treads is majorly slept on as a pick
:Iron Treads:

Iron Treads @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Ice Spinner
- Swords Dance
 
quziel said:
Magic Bounce guessing games feel horrible for everyone involved. The removal is incredibly solid in convergence with stuff like Regenvest Garg/Suicune, regular Suicune, and more being able to clear the field very freely, and I question how useful forcing folks to guess whether the Cress is Mbounce, Mguard, or some other ability adds to the meta.

Boomburst is similarly just way too much power to be spread this freely. Every single special attacking water can and should run it, even if Suicune is basically the only decent special water left in the format. This also applies to P-Z and P-2.

Edit:
Unaware also pretty silly, though its managable.
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magic bunce as an ability isn't broken, in the worst cases it prevents hazards and bounces back toxic and taunt, + an immunity to encore. and that's fine, if it wasn't for that annoying ass cress that's broken more than imaginabe on every set it runs. For instance, I play Magic bounce on Cosmoem, the most passive psychic one could think of, it's bulkier than cress (don't ask me how tf considering they have like 90 base hp difference), and it's just a fun supporter than can go for Trick room, Rain dance, Whatever terrain, in addition to Teleport, Recover and Foul play/body press/nuzzle, the third being the most passive and the best utility (converges from hattrem)

look the problem with pZ is it's being able to 2HKO blissey and why? because Boomburst, adap, and 135 spatk. You cannot deny the Importance of adaptability in the calcs, it is at least as problematic. Liquid voice Suicune is not broken, not even comparable with Like CPSP Cresselia or unburden. it needs 3 calm minds to become problematic, just like about any specially attacking bulky mon, and "it's bulky enough to pull 3 cms is bs, Offensive pressure is very much easier to setup in this tier, it was time to discover that Defensive Semi stall i not the way to go in every damn tier. "in any game, Porygons are going for atb least a kill" Yea? that's what offensive mons are for, I can say the same about keldeo, Modest Life orb swift swim under rain Goest super hard, especially since most special walls (Toxapex being the exception) that can Take 2 hydro pumps take a LOT from secret sword. Porygon2 is not "only killable if you have another broken mon" it's only killable if you Have a mon with 90+ offensive stat and a supereffective move, or a mon with a 85+ BP move and 120+ offensive stats. oh and guess tf what, that's also the case of things like Ursaluna in reg Tiers, especially since the "so problematic set" of P2 is max hp max SPA. it's not that bulky, really. no Regirock wont 3HKO with uninvested salt cure, does that surprise anyone? "boomburst is not making it to the end of the mons" fine, but if you want to kick it before you kick Cresselia or dire claw, let me doubt of your thinking for 5 minutes
 
Kin+ak (✧∇✧) said:
magic bunce as an ability isn't broken, in the worst cases it prevents hazards and bounces back toxic and taunt, + an immunity to encore. and that's fine, if it wasn't for that annoying ass cress that's broken more than imaginabe on every set it runs. For instance, I play Magic bounce on Cosmoem, the most passive psychic one could think of, it's bulkier than cress (don't ask me how tf considering they have like 90 base hp difference), and it's just a fun supporter than can go for Trick room, Rain dance, Whatever terrain, in addition to Teleport, Recover and Foul play/body press/nuzzle, the third being the most passive and the best utility (converges from hattrem)

look the problem with pZ is it's being able to 2HKO blissey and why? because Boomburst, adap, and 135 spatk. You cannot deny the Importance of adaptability in the calcs, it is at least as problematic. Liquid voice Suicune is not broken, not even comparable with Like CPSP Cresselia or unburden. it needs 3 calm minds to become problematic, just like about any specially attacking bulky mon, and "it's bulky enough to pull 3 cms is bs, Offensive pressure is very much easier to setup in this tier, it was time to discover that Defensive Semi stall i not the way to go in every damn tier. "in any game, Porygons are going for atb least a kill" Yea? that's what offensive mons are for, I can say the same about keldeo, Modest Life orb swift swim under rain Goest super hard, especially since most special walls (Toxapex being the exception) that can Take 2 hydro pumps take a LOT from secret sword. Porygon2 is not "only killable if you have another broken mon" it's only killable if you Have a mon with 90+ offensive stat and a supereffective move, or a mon with a 85+ BP move and 120+ offensive stats. oh and guess tf what, that's also the case of things like Ursaluna in reg Tiers, especially since the "so problematic set" of P2 is max hp max SPA. it's not that bulky, really. no Regirock wont 3HKO with uninvested salt cure, does that surprise anyone? "boomburst is not making it to the end of the mons" fine, but if you want to kick it before you kick Cresselia or dire claw, let me doubt of your thinking for 5 minutes
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not a single time in dozens of high-level matches have i actually witnessed cresselia successfully putting in work. i legitimately don't know which sets people are even complaining about because whenever i see cresselia she doesn't have time to reveal more than a move or two before getting 2-shot by greninja or meowscarada, or thudding into iron crown and being forced to switch, or dying to some stupid boomburster or other. if there's some crazy meta-breaking cress set i haven't encountered, feel free to share
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
not a single time in dozens of high-level matches have i actually witnessed cresselia successfully putting in work. i legitimately don't know which sets people are even complaining about because whenever i see cresselia she doesn't have time to reveal more than a move or two before getting 2-shot by greninja or meowscarada, or thudding into iron crown and being forced to switch, or dying to some stupid boomburster or other. if there's some crazy meta-breaking cress set i haven't encountered, feel free to share
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"I am playing counters to these pokémon, I don't see why it's broken" well If your team doesn't have an immediate burst supperrefective Move that cripple +1 defense Cresselia good luck; And Cresselia, i played correctly, does win the 1v1 against wish-less Iron Crown, I did it many times. pretty easy to beat Darks with a set running moonblast or even draining kiss calm mind.

oh and, it's a guess my set pokémon , for which all sets are good, and it's the best user of all of them
 
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