This is a really poor argument. For one, Iron Crown is able to still pressure even things that threaten it so they don’t just come into it freely. Darkrai has to be careful to avoid Tachyon/Volt/Focus Blast, Iron Moth is afraid of Psychic Stab (and in a 1 on 1 if necessary AV crown can stay in to trade with Moth to keep it from snowballing), while Pult and Wake locked into Draco are actually entry points for Crown. And the ground bit is wrong. Why Volt Switch? Because Ting-Lu it’s not a very easy Volt to block as the other grounds don’t enjoy switching into it (even Gliscor due to Psychic Noise).
Crown also generates pressure when it’s on the field (well unless a Ting Lu is present) and is able to make progress. It’s not just switching in, it’s using those switch ins to keep momentum going.
Your theoretical AV Moon doesn’t check anything well, and certainly not better than other Pokémon do which just leads to, why bother? No one is ignoring “benefits”, you’re assuming them when there aren’t any.
Don’t be that guy. Don’t be pretentious please. Trying to hand wave people’s legitimate criticism of your argument with “well I have game design knowledge so I know more than you” is not strengthening your argument at all. It doesn’t legitimize anything you say.
Moon is intended to be a sweeper. Having high HP and Spdef doesn’t suddenly mean you should run janky defensive sets. It’s there to ease its set up vs things it can come in on (fire types, some electric types, etc). It’s a poor Dragon Tail user as it completely blanks into Fairies (which you’re giving completely free set up to when they come in), not to mention fighting types. If you’re actually looking for a dragon phaser, you’d seriously just be better off with Chomp since that sets up hazards and has chip punishing. Better yet, use the actually excellent and important Ting-Lu which is a better phaser than both and a better dark type than Roaring Moon (defensively).
It’s not. We’ve gone months without extensive complaints about this Mon. You can’t just go “but game design” because gameplay is right there to prove it’s not an issue. If it were truly bad game design, we’d be having issues with more than just Moon. It’d extend to other boosting BE mons but it doesn’t even get beyond Moon which isn’t an issue.
This is a lot to address, and some of it was already addressed with other people, so I'll only be responding to a few points.
1. I used Iron Crown as an example of faulty logics from the poster I responded to. Obviously, I don't believe running AV or Volt Switch on it is bad. It was to make a point. I already said that Iron Crown had enough utility into enough things and use in other areas. Yes, there are things Iron Crown can do that Roaring Moon cannot. It also can't Knock Off or phase things. It has different stregnths.
2. You say Moon cannot check anything well enough, but this is demonstrably untrue as I have stated before. Darkrai being the biggest example.
3. It isn't pretentious when I have been talking straight game design mechanics. Some people want to dismiss you for not following the meta to a T or what have you. Well, meta innovations come from players who break outside the mold. Usually top players, but not always. I only demonstrated it to say that my insights of the game's mechanics don't just come from being a player and why. It was just a brief mention. This was never meant to be anything more than that. If you still don't respect my views and where it comes from, that is on you. I'm just letting people know. It shouldn't be made into a big deal.
4. You think Moon isn't OP. I disagree. People said the same thing about Gouging Fire until they realized, hey wait, DD + BE + Tera is kinda cracked. It can check all its counters sort of like Volc did. Well, it's not that Gouging Fire changed in capability. It was always able to do that. It's that people realized its capabilities more. Moon has the same DD + BE + Tera foundation. Less bulk, but more speed, more power, and Knock Off.
And because somebody else said this, let me just reclarify that I'm not here trying to say AV Moon itself is ever going to be OP or anything like that. What I am saying with it is that Moon's bulk, particularly on the special side, is generally highly underestimated. You can break out of the mold a bit. Like it wasn't that long ago somebody posted a Breaking Swipes set with replays.
You know what I completely agree with you on the set diversity thing and the worst part about roaring moon (imo) is that it really doesn't have set diversity besides...choice band (which is very flawed)? This is why I usually put dragonite above roaring moon as a better dragon type because while dragonite is technically less powerful it has really good priority multiscale and most importantly (for this conversation) set diversity. Why use what is essentially a one trick pony in roaring moon besides to Tera Flying sweep and that is the big thing that holds roaring moon back.
Well, my point was Moon actually does have more set diversity than people realize. And you don't need Tera Flying on DD sets. Sets like Tera Ground, Tera Dragon with Iron Head, and Tera Fairy can do just fine.
actual degree-holding and published game designer here to tell you that you are very much out of your depth. if you actually did detailed analysis of roaring moon as a mon, its kit, its defensive profile, and the metagame as a whole, you'd realize that moon's utility tools aren't immediate enough progress-makers to reliably put it into a defensive utility role. having 105/101 special bulk, knock, and u-turn doesn't automatically mean "slap a vest on it and the set will be good", especially when the mon in question is insane as a mid-to-late-game dd sweeper and also really good as a banded breaker. i don't usually like to bring opportunity cost in when weighing the merits of sets because multiple things can be good at the same time, but roaring moon's so good at making progress offensively that the opportunity cost of doing virtually anything else with it is devastating. on a mon like this, the bulk is a bonus, not the main feature you should build around
moon is by no means limited to tera flying acrobatics on ddance sets. tera ground's been rising in popularity recently and some sets even forgo acrobatics altogether for roost or taunt. tera dragon outrage is also an option—you see it more on band, but it's definitely workable on booster ddance as a late-game kill-everything click with the proper teammates to take care of the fairies beforehand. it's not pigeonholed into only one set at all, and this isn't even bringing up the band set and the rare loaded dice scale shot set
I have a degree, too. But I'm not here to flex, get into a measuring contest, or go on about real life things I would rather keep private. It was only meant to demonstrate my understanding on game mechanics was higher than the average person. That doesn't mean people have to agree, but it does mean I'm not just pulling everything out of my rear end with no understanding like certain folks default to claiming. I even brought up specific comps like Torn-T, AV Scizor, and AV Iron Crown to demonstrate my point. So don't tell me I don't understand game design when I have been talking straight mechanics.
I am glad you at least recognize some of the set diversity of Moon more than other people.
As for the opportunity cost thing, you
could be right. I have made very clear that this was in very early testing phase. This might be just a niche thing, if anything. But there are some benefits to AV Moon. So I wanted to explore that more. I was hoping for more brainstorming stuff rather than certain regressive things. My mistake. In the future, I'll come up with everything on my own and only share it when I'm ready.
The main issue I think with an AV Roaring Moon is that it doesn't do a good deal that makes it better than most SpD Utility mons we have in the tier, regardless of if it's competent in the role in its own right. I can't quite see what its niche is over things like SpD Gliscor, Tinkaton, or rarer things like Mandibuzz that allows the rest of your team to experiment with it slotted in over another option for the spot.
Moon has a good set of traits for variety within a role, but it doesn't really go deep enough with anything besides its offensive tools to outright change its role completely rather than supplement the attacker role: Roost, for example, can patch up damage against a passive opponent, but it doesn't have a particularly great way to disrupt things beyond hitting back like how some mons will set Hazards or throw status around. This compared to how Gholdengo has things like Trick, Nasty Plot, a much stronger defensive typing, and GaG that it can elect to focus on to win/lose to a different collection of Pokemon that little in OU can replicate with the same efficiency.
This is the best counterargument I've seen so far. Mons like specially defensive Gliscor, Tinkaton, and Mandibuzz do have a lot of utility. Teambuilding has been the biggest problem with Sp. Def. Moon for me so far. Role compression is an issue. I haven't run the calcs on Roost, but I suspect some might not be enough without AV. Going without HDB and Wish means you need a lot of role compression mons. But mons like Gliscor and Tinkaton can sort of just be put on a team pretty easily.
