Serious The Politics Thread

[Oglemi]

Yesterday, there was a pretty heinous troll post in this thread that appeared to be from Platinum God n1n1. Senior Staff has since verified that their account was compromised and credibly determined that it was not them that made the post, but someone else using their account.

Posting this here for posterity so the user is not unfairly painted as that kind of person and for those curious why the ban was undone. Hopefully the cowardly perpetrator finds a better use of their time in this life.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

Right, so both of my posts have been removed in relation to:

Yesterday, there was a pretty heinous troll post in this thread that appeared to be from Platinum God n1n1. Senior Staff has since verified that their account was compromised and credibly determined that it was not them that made the post, but someone else using their account.

Posting this here for posterity so the user is not unfairly painted as that kind of person and for those curious why the ban was undone. Hopefully the cowardly perpetrator finds a better use of their time in this life.

without any kind of warning or heads up or explanation as to why.

I am asking, politely, what measures have been put in place to prevent the “hacker” from returning - and can senior staff please make a statement on what happened and provide us with better information, please?

Because as it stands I am finding the “I was hacked” claim to be incredibly convenient given the seriousness of the subject matter.

 

[juoean]

i find this sequence v interesting because in multiple previous conversations here, talking about our interactions with each other in this thread, how such interactions impact the way each of us are received by each other as well as by any 'passersby', etc have previously been deemed to be "off-topic", and when we try to discuss issues in this sphere our posts usually get deleted.

for example i have been misrepresented quite a few times in this thread, eg <https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-politics-thread.3743029/page-16#post-10168496>
<https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-politics-thread.3743029/page-16#post-10168540>
<https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-politics-thread.3743029/page-104#post-10266883>
(the most unambiguous misrepresentations are the claims that "nearly half of my posts are about moderation" / "they [juoean] have next to no interest in discussing anything that isnt internal smogon politics and white knighting[!] for [sabelette]", and the obvious mischaracterizations of my and oglemi's dms, u could also talk about other aspects that are more subjective such as calling me 'hostile')
these posts also contain some significant misrepresentations of other users eg "Sablette's post was moderated for being an outright attack against the Discord team, while even acknowledging they're the reason the last thread was closed" as i discussed here <https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-politics-thread.3743029/post-10168526>)
but ofc i can speak most accurately to the misrepresentations of myself so i will keep the focus to that.

i did not after any of these interactions receive a post talking about how the way people perceive me may have been altered by false statements made about me, or a sentence such as "Posting this here for posterity so the user is not unfairly painted as that kind of person." i dont think i even got a post announcing my unban, much less any acknowledgment that an error might have been made or addressing the false statements that were made during the convo about whether my ban was appropriate.

"personally" i dont rly have a problem with oglemi's post ^, he does not control senior staff's process and while maybe a different word choice would be better eg "senior staff has come to the conclusion that n1n1 was hacked", rather than saying they "verified" it if oglemi does not actually have such verification or applicable knowledge about their internal process.
n1n1 obviously has engaged in p vitriolic attacks of sabelette in the past eg https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-politics-thread.3743029/post-10280300, and ultimately each of us will interpret the alleged hack in the way that makes sense to us, or perhaps try not to interpret it at all bc idk if it is anyone's business other than sabelette's. edit: says above that the perpetrator was identified, user "hs". but like, it is correct for oglemi to 'pass on' senior staff's determination (or alternatively for someone from senior staff or from the investigation process to have posted about that determination here themselves, which i see hecate has now done above).

if sabelette wants space here to talk about the original act of interpersonal violence (committed by user hs according to senior staff post above), or about the investigation process (ideally she was/wouldve been included in the 'investigation process', i do not have any personal knowledge as to whether she was or not, in either case she may or may not want to comment on that aspect here), or anything else, then ofc the floor is hers and what im bringing up here should be postponed for later; but this is something that should be addressed at some point, at minimum to clarify the standards of what is and isnt considered "on topic" for the thread. (obv from my pov, all of it is on topic, or as "on topic" as anything in this thread can be given that it is a catch all "politics" thread)

 

[Oglemi]

i find this sequence v interesting because in multiple previous conversations here, talking about our interactions with each other in this thread, how such interactions impact the way each of us are received by each other as well as by any 'passersby', etc have previously been deemed to be "off-topic", and when we try to discuss issues in this sphere our posts usually get deleted.

for example i have been misrepresented quite a few times in this thread, eg <https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-politics-thread.3743029/page-16#post-10168496>
<https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-politics-thread.3743029/page-16#post-10168540>
<https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-politics-thread.3743029/page-104#post-10266883>
(the most unambiguous misrepresentations are the claims that "nearly half of my posts are about moderation" / "they [juoean] have next to no interest in discussing anything that isnt internal smogon politics and white knighting[!] for [sabelette]", and the obvious mischaracterizations of my and oglemi's dms, u could also talk about other aspects that are more subjective such as calling me 'hostile')
these posts also contain some significant misrepresentations of other users eg "Sablette's post was moderated for being an outright attack against the Discord team, while even acknowledging they're the reason the last thread was closed" as i discussed here <https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-politics-thread.3743029/post-10168526>)
but ofc i can speak most accurately to the misrepresentations of myself so i will keep the focus to that.

i did not after any of these interactions receive a post talking about how the way people perceive me may have been altered by false statements made about me, or a sentence such as "Posting this here for posterity so the user is not unfairly painted as that kind of person." i dont think i even got a post announcing my unban, much less any acknowledgment that an error might have been made or addressing the false statements that were made during the convo about whether my ban was appropriate.

"personally" i dont rly have a problem with oglemi's post ^, he does not control senior staff's process and while maybe a different word choice would be better eg "senior staff has come to the conclusion that n1n1 was hacked", rather than saying they "verified" it if oglemi does not actually have such verification or applicable knowledge about their internal process.
n1n1 obviously has engaged in p vitriolic attacks of sabelette in the past eg https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-politics-thread.3743029/post-10280300, and ultimately each of us will interpret the alleged hack in the way that makes sense to us, or perhaps try not to interpret it at all bc idk if it is anyone's business other than sabelette's. edit: says above that the perpetrator was identified, user "hs". but like, it is correct for oglemi to 'pass on' senior staff's determination (or alternatively for someone from senior staff or from the investigation process to have posted about that determination here themselves, which i see hecate has now done above).

if sabelette wants space here to talk about the original act of interpersonal violence (committed by user hs according to senior staff post above), or about the investigation process (ideally she was/wouldve been included in the 'investigation process', i do not have any personal knowledge as to whether she was or not, in either case she may or may not want to comment on that aspect here), or anything else, then ofc the floor is hers and what im bringing up here should be postponed for later; but this is something that should be addressed at some point, at minimum to clarify the standards of what is and isnt considered "on topic" for the thread. (obv from my pov, all of it is on topic, or as "on topic" as anything in this thread can be given that it is a catch all "politics" thread)

What is it that you want?

Either you trust SS or you don't. Nothing further on the n1n1 matter is going to be divulged to you here.

It's curious that I would post about addressing something that was very clearly out of line and would leave others confused as to why they saw a user banned and then quickly unbanned?

Shoot me I guess for making an "offtopic" post, shoulda just let you make a post about why n1 was unbanned and how I'm not doing my job for banning n1 instead, right?

 

[tada]

Would be nice if people would stop deleting my posts here but i digress. At the moment North Gazans are being told to evacuate to a supposed safe shelter for some reason but any time anyone tries to move they're shot by the iof. At what point do people see that a Holocaust is being carried out on the Palestinian people by Zionist zealots who do horrible things with the cover of the Jewish religion?
Source: https://www.app.com.pk/global/un-wa...-gazans-saying-they-have-no-safe-place-to-go/

 

[Bakugames]

Hi i had lunch and also a nice nap.

Current order of events (that we know of):

Marçal creates a fake image of a medical report that states Boulos used drugs - coke in specific - in high dosages. The image is extremely fake, from the template being taken from the top images of a "medical report" google search, to incorrect ssn numbers and names, a doctor who has been dead for 2 years, a unintentifiable signature, and a date of exam that would be impossible since boulos has literal instagram postings of him being somewhere else the day of. As a bonus, the owner of the clinic used is a friend of Marçal and has a false medicine diploma

The post is deleted, Marçal claims censorship, but outside his bubble the report gets quickly debunked for the reasons above. Malafaia, who has been in conflict with Marçal over losing the evangelical vote and the fracturing of the right wing parties, jumps onto the opportunity and condemns Marçal.

Boulos goes on the offensive, and is planning on recouring to the supreme to have Marçal imprisioned and removed from the race for fake news and libel.

Currently, a lot of right wing folks have a Qanon relationship with right wing politicians, where everything they say is true and part of a conspiracy if "proven wrong", so the debunkings are not going to change most voters views on Marçal

sorry to have a sillier topic in here but uh. So Marçal lost the first turn to Nunes and Boulos, who are going to the second turn. And he decided to go to Boulos side and told his voterbase to not... vote Nunes........ even though they're both in right wing parties with similar goals.... and while PT isn't the most leftist party out there it has not moved right enough to be that close to Marçal's party policies....

 

[juoean]

What is it that you want?

Either you trust SS or you don't. Nothing further on the n1n1 matter is going to be divulged to you here.

It's curious that I would post about addressing something that was very clearly out of line and would leave others confused as to why they saw a user banned and then quickly unbanned?

Shoot me I guess for making an "offtopic" post, shoulda just let you make a post about why n1 was unbanned and how I'm not doing my job for banning n1 instead, right?

this post is very confusing to me because i did not ask for anything further to be "divulged" from ss, i also specifically "defended" you relaying the msg from ss, and i did not say anything remotely related to if n1n1 should have been threadbanned for previous behavior. so where is any of what you wrote here coming from because from my point of view, except for the third sentence/paragraph, it has literally zero connection to anything that i wrote (or think, or want).

i am fine with your response to this situation, what i am asking for is that the rest of us receive the same treatment that n1n1 received from you here. just as u make a post informing us that n1n1 was hacked by hs and that u want to make sure we have accurate information so that we do not judge a user based on something that didnt actually happen, there should be an acknowledgment whenever false statements are made about other users to make sure that people are not basing their views of users based on misinformation. the conversation that occurred during the brief period i was banned in particular was rife with extreme misinformation, from claims that i never post in this thread except to talk about moderation, to threatening to ban sabelette for posting our dms (since i ofc was not able to do so myself due to being banned) which only came up because you yourself had invoked them and made clearly false statements about them.
[and one purpose that a post 'announcing' that i was unbanned could serve, would be to address the various false statements that were made during the course of that convo.]

obviously a bit of time has passed since then and we cant ~go back in time to that point, nor do we need to i dont think, but i would like to see this sort of attentiveness to the dangers of false information to be more of a model for moderation going forward, and if u dont want to go back and rehash prior conflicts thats ok but would appreciate eg some sort of communication that making clearly false statements about users is unacceptable, whomever those statements come from including if they happen to come from a moderator, and idk that u will try to do better to not perpetuate that behavior yourself, or at minimum not to delete posts criticizing false statements made about users and asking for them to be retracted and apologized for. (obv this is just like my own writing in response to ur q 'what am i asking for', not like u are required to give this very specific response that precisely matches what im saying here, this is an example of the type of thing i would be looking for.

and i understand if maybe it was confusing for u why i chose this moment to ask for this, but from my pov i have not previously experienced or seen moderation oriented toward ~attentiveness to how a user might be perceived~ that n1n1 was shown here rly at any prior time in this thread, so to me this was something to highlight, to point out how starkly different it has been from my own experiences here (and perhaps some others also may feel a stark difference compared to their own expereinces in this thread), and to encourage that other instances of false information be addressed and corrected with a similar level of attention and concern

 

[Oglemi]

this post is very confusing to me because i did not ask for anything further to be "divulged" from ss, i also specifically "defended" you relaying the msg from ss, and i did not say anything remotely related to if n1n1 should have been threadbanned for previous behavior. so where is any of what you wrote here coming from because from my point of view, except for the third sentence/paragraph, it has literally zero connection to anything that i wrote (or think, or want).

i am fine with your response to this situation, what i am asking for is that the rest of us receive the same treatment that n1n1 received from you here. just as u make a post informing us that n1n1 was hacked by hs and that u want to make sure we have accurate information so that we do not judge a user based on something that didnt actually happen, there should be an acknowledgment whenever false statements are made about other users to make sure that people are not basing their views of users based on misinformation. the conversation that occurred during the brief period i was banned in particular was rife with extreme misinformation, from claims that i never post in this thread except to talk about moderation, to threatening to ban sabelette for posting our dms (since i ofc was not able to do so myself due to being banned) which only came up because you yourself had invoked them and made clearly false statements about them.
[and one purpose that a post 'announcing' that i was unbanned could serve, would be to address the various false statements that were made during the course of that convo.]

obviously a bit of time has passed since then and we cant ~go back in time to that point, nor do we need to i dont think, but i would like to see this sort of attentiveness to the dangers of false information to be more of a model for moderation going forward, and if u dont want to go back and rehash prior conflicts thats ok but would appreciate eg some sort of communication that making clearly false statements about users is unacceptable, whomever those statements come from including if they happen to come from a moderator, and idk that u will try to do better to not perpetuate that behavior yourself, or at minimum not to delete posts criticizing false statements made about users and asking for them to be retracted and apologized for. (obv this is just like my own writing in response to ur q 'what am i asking for', not like u are required to give this very specific response that precisely matches what im saying here, this is an example of the type of thing i would be looking for.

and i understand if maybe it was confusing for u why i chose this moment to ask for this, but from my pov i have not previously experienced or seen moderation oriented toward ~attentiveness to how a user might be perceived~ that n1n1 was shown here rly at any prior time in this thread, so to me this was something to highlight, to point out how starkly different it has been from my own experiences here (and perhaps some others also may feel a stark difference compared to their own expereinces in this thread), and to encourage that other instances of false information be addressed and corrected with a similar level of attention and concerns

I mean you need to take into consideration context, severity, who is modding, and frequency. As volunteers that look at this thread in our downtime, no I cannot guarantee people's experiences with the staff or this thread are going to be the same, with all of these factors combined. A post probably should have been made at your unbanning and an apology given, but I did not handle your banning or unbanning so I didn't do it.

Ultimately, if you want consistency, you need to address the moderators directly instead of dropping posts in this thread about issues. I understand you personally may be discouraged from our prior convo, but not to rehash points, to me it sounded like you disagreed on the whole with my points but understood "time and place." No point in me pressing further if that's the conclusion right? If you wanted a further response you can just poke me again, things also get missed!

Having an actual conversation is much more conducive to approaching common ground than posting public appeals and criticisms that are often baseless or irrelevant. Wouldn't need to be accusing me of spreading disinformation about you had you or Sab just messaged us asking about the grounds of your banning. Instead we got to air some dirty laundry.

This is the last i'll discuss this here. I've made my personal stance clear on what is or is not appropriate for this thread.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

Putting aside the general nonsense of the last day or so.

“Evacuation orders”

I want to talk about how utterly disgusting this rhetoric is. Stay with me here.

Imagine going up to the United States and ordering the citizens of New York to evacuate, because there are some members of the KKK meeting in a building near central park. Because you’re going to send in some ballistic missiles to target them.

It’s okay, they’re terrorists, they’re proscribed by your country.

First off, the United States government would tell you where to stick its evacuation orders - it’s a sovereign country, it can handle things internally.

Secondly - can you actually imagine a whole block of skyscrapers and buildings being flattened near Central Park?

Yet this logic is how Israel has displaced millions in Gaza, now pushing the entire population of the enclave south - thus looking like fulfilling the rhetoric we have heard and demanded action against (pushing the Palestinians towards the Sinai Desert and making them Egypt’s problem whilst taking over Gaza).

It is also the same logic that is being applied to Lebanon’s south, now, with Netanahyu threatening Lebanon, again.

Evacuation orders. Israel: evacuate yourselves from the occupied territories and obey the will of the UNGA’s resolutions that clearly, repeatedly, and loudly call for an end to the violence and an end to the occupation.

The continued smashing of international law and ignoring the will of the people of this planet is only going to end badly.

The killing must end.

 

[ManOfMany]

I feel immeasurably angry, day after day, watching the various news channels, reading articles, putting together folders of evidence, citations, links…I was always told “never again” and I was always taught “never again” meant never again for everyone.

But for 76 years, unabated, Israel has been carrying out the obvious crimes of annexation, displacement, and outright murder, whether through the actions of the IDF or its settlers.

Normally in a genocide, there is a problem with finding evidence. In Israel’s case, we have the opposite problem. There’s so many war crimes, so much evidence, the numbers are so overwhelmingly high in virtually every regard, in such a short space of time, that you don’t know where to begin when talking about any of this.

Do we start with the starvation as a weapon of war? How about the destruction of farmland? What about water as a weapon of war, destroying fresh water piping throughout the Gaza strip and now the West Bank?

Do we talk about the literal thousands of sniper shots and bullet wounds recorded by MSF, mostly in the children of Gaza? Do we talk about the limitations of basic medical supplies? Where in Gaza - where gauze was literally invented - doctors do not even have access to this basic necessity for treating wounds?

Do we talk about the destruction of homes (domicide)? Where Israeli troops have blown up every university, most mosques and churches, destroyed whole blocks of houses. Somehow we have video and photographs of all of this, and weirdly nothing for the “vast underground network of tunnels”. Funny that. I am expecting that to be put into the category of “weapons of mass destruction” in due course.

How about we talk about the amount of weaponry used on a strip of land just 25 miles long and 5 miles wide at its widest? Recent reports suggest we are now well past 100,000 tonnes of bombs used on Gaza, which had no formal army, no tanks, no missiles, no navy, no air force, just IEDs, AK47s and improvised rockets. 30,000 Hamas fighters using weaponry reminiscent of the Viet Cong against an oppressive and long time oppressor.

Do we talk about the genocidal language that has been used by virtually every member of the Netanahyu war cabinet at some point? The complete dehumanisation of Palestinian, and now Lebanese lives? We are “fighting human animals” after all - right?

Do we talk about the social media complicity and double standards in this? Where pro Palestine and anti-Zionist voices are silenced from the river to the sea whilst Zionists talk openly of eradicating the two state solution, from the river to the sea? Where western media labels Israeli deaths as victims and Palestinian and Lebanese ones as collateral damage in a war?

Do we talk about the rhetoric of the United States and the duplicity of being involved in ceasefire negotiations whilst also arming the country that is literally setting the middle east on fire?

Do we talk about the rules based order being shattered when Israel doesn’t follow any single part of international humanitarian law? How every resolution is ignored? How Israel disregards the ICC and the ICJ? How every negotiation has seen assassinations, including the use of indiscriminate bombing by air strikes and pager bombs, the moment it got close to a ceaefire?

Do we talk about the amount of focus that has been placed on rape and sexual assault that has been claimed to have been carried out on October 7th (and we can’t rule out because Israel won’t allow the UN to investigate properly) or the fact that since October 7th, the amount of physical, reported, and verified, cases of sexual based torture and rape on Palestinians and Palestinian prisoners by Israel has skyrocketed? Including video of soldiers gang raping a prisoner, potentially to life changing injuries?

Do we talk about settler violence in the West Bank and the destruction of Palestinian lives there? The apartheid that is obviously and has been obviously going on there, for 76 years?

Do we talk about…

This is the bit which gets me. It’s never ending. Every single day, for 365 days, there were war crimes enacted by Israel onto Palestine. Every single day.

We haven’t even got to what happened in the 27,538 days before October 7th. Because trust me - there’s more!

If this post seems overly critical of Israel - what do you want me to do?

I’m a historian by trade, I’m an engineer by work, I work on the basis of evidence. When there is this much evidence of wrongdoing - putting it mildly - do you expect us to overlook it all?

At what point do we turn a blind eye to all this? (I’d argue - never - if we want a better world, then this needs to be stopped).

What would you have me do?

You are spot on. Intentional targetting of civilians including children, starvation tactics, bombing aid workers, segregation of the population into smaller camps, openly genocidal speeches from main politicians-- everything points to genocide of Gaza's population, not even a 'typical' war. We are being asked to deny the evidence in front of our own eyes, and for what?

(apologies in advance for making this part American-centric)

The U.S. government's complicity in funding Israel has been hugely disappointing. Yes, it's not entirely a surprise given the wars in Iraq/Afghanistan and historic violent interventionism, and we know that Israel is a long-standing ally. But the sheer level that the U.S. government has allowed this to fester without giving the slightest bit of pushback is simply unbelievable. Stopping weapons sales is treated like an extremist move, something that isn't even on the level of sanctions, and actually polls well among voters. Does anyone really believe that Harris would lose polling by distancing herself from Biden by simply saying she supports conditioning weapons to Israel? It doesn't make sense.

Even if you approach this from a purely selfish perspective where only American lives matter, the logic falls apart. Israel is destabilizing the Middle East by escalating war in Lebanon and elsewhere. It has become a rogue state in the eyes of the rest of the world, and the U.S. is undermining its own credibility in the international order by supporting it. It has bombed American embassy workers and aid workers, and repeatedly ignored American recommendations for war conduct. The U.S. has tied itself to a sinking, exploding ship and all for what? An allyship that doesn't provide anything in return but more money funneled to military contractors.

One thing that infuriates me is that it further undermines credibility in the U.S. government as a whole, and deservedly so. I care a great deal about domestic policy and believe there is a lot of potential in the U.S. to improve our citizen's lives. There are thousands of people actively working on things like working to lower the cost of prescription drugs, building better transportation infrastructure for climate events, reforming regulations for housing costs, and ensuring farming practices sustain our soil for generations. These are people who are experts in their fields, who are not involved in the military complex or foreign policy at all, and simply care about public service. All of that work is being undermined because the higher-ups are so tied to a small foreign country they cannot call out the mass atrocities it commits. Why should voters trust that any part of the government has their own interests at heart when they cannot even display the most basic amount of empathy to suffering children? It's a fair question, and we are seeing the ramifications of it with the recent deadly Hurricanes. FEMA is doing good work with emergency response, but people on all sides of the spectrum have lost so much trust in our institutions because they see that they are so clearly captured.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

My knowledge of American history is largely incomplete, though I have a working understanding of the declaration of Independence. The words contained within the docket are:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

This alone, as one of the founding documents and principles of the United States of America, should put it at odds with the creation of Israel and its current form, which is an apartheid state in which there exists (as Sablette so ably showed a week or so back) a complex tiered system in which racial segregation and profiling are the absolute norm.

Yet the ironclad support for Israel despite human rights breaches, humanitarian disasters, war crimes, accusations of genocide (which the United States official line is to refuse the description) highlights one thing to me.

The USA is not led by those who have the most vested interest in it. Israel and Israelis have come first at the explicit cost of the USA and Americans second. This would seem to me to be an exact description of influence from foreign agents (but Israel appears exempt from this).

Over 22 billion dollars going in “military aid” - which again, is a term I disagree with, it should be, at the least “military equipment” if not just simply “weaponry” - has gone to Israel. 22 billion, the largest amount of money and weaponry to Israel in a calendar year.

It bothers me greatly that we can see such obvious duplicity from the USA’s politicians on the democratic side. I expect it of Republicans, seeing Biden become Genocide Joe has been a wake up call for the rest of us.

 

[Divine Retribution]

My knowledge of American is largely incomplete, though I have a working understanding of the declaration of Independence. The words contained within the docket are:



This alone, as one of the founding documents and principles of the United States of America, should put it at odds with the creation of Israel and its current form, which is an apartheid state in which there exists (as Sablette so ably showed a week or so back) a complex tiered system in which racial segregation and profiling are the absolute norm.

The fact that these words were written by people who literally owned other human beings shows exactly how important they really are to American politics and culture. We claim to be the most free country in the world while we fund fascist coups in democratic countries that voted against our interests, let our cops act as an occupying army and get away with the most egregious acts of violence, and lock up more people per capita than any other first-world nation by a wide margin. People love touting documents like the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution as malleable ideas that they can form to fit their given ideology but most of them haven't actually read the damn things. America was never about freedom or liberty; those are meaningless buzzwords politicians and the owning class can hand you like a blanket while they exploit the fuck out of the global south and, to a somewhat lesser extent, their own working class citizens.

To an average American, conservative or liberal, freedom only encompasses the government not imprisoning you for no reason or forcing you to act against your own interests (until they go ahead and do anyways; ask the 120,000 Japanese Americans imprisoned during WWII how free America is, or the barely-out-of-high-school kids who got drafted during the Vietnam war to carpet bomb a country most of them hadn't even heard of). The concept of positive vs. negative freedoms is alien to them, as are systemic prejudices. As evidenced by some of the posters in this thread, liberals are utterly incapable of perceiving the world outside of the liberal faux-democratic framework. Laws to them are absolute and transcendent, so if something isn't written into law, it doesn't exist. If there isn't a law in Israel that says "Palestinians are second-class citizens", then they must not be (ignore the fact that Israel's Basic Law essentially does say this; they usually do).

At the heart of it, though, is pure and simple xenophobia. Israeli citizens are for the most part white, most speak English as either a primary or fluent secondary language, and their culture, history, and politics are intelligible to privileged white Westerners. Palestinians are, for the most part, Arab, and all Arabs are backwards, uncivilized terrorists who need to be either 'westernized' or killed. Colonialism never went away, it just hides itself a little better these days.

More liberal Zionists, such as the ones who post regularly in this thread, might deny this, but the way they speak about these issues betrays a fundamental xenophobia that they might not even be conscious of. We should condemn Iran for firing a couple hundred rockets at some airbases and the headquarters of the second most evil intelligence agency in the world next to the CIA and killing exactly one person equally as strongly as we should condemn Israel for dropping more ordnance on Gaza than the bombing of Dresden almost a factor of 20 and killing dozens to possibly over a hundred thousand people, the majority women and children. What is the difference between these two nations that makes them equally worthy of condemnation despite such a massive disparity in their material actions?

 

[juoean]

My knowledge of American is largely incomplete, though I have a working understanding of the declaration of Independence. The words contained within the docket are:



This alone, as one of the founding documents and principles of the United States of America, should put it at odds with the creation of Israel and its current form, which is an apartheid state in which there exists (as Sablette so ably showed a week or so back) a complex tiered system in which racial segregation and profiling are the absolute norm.

Yet the ironclad support for Israel despite human rights breaches, humanitarian disasters, war crimes, accusations of genocide (which the United States official line is to refuse the description) highlights one thing to me.

The USA is not led by those who have the most vested interest in it. Israel and Israelis have come first at the explicit cost of the USA and Americans second. This would seem to me to be an exact description of influence from foreign agents (but Israel appears exempt from this).

Over 22 billion dollars going in “military aid” - which again, is a term I disagree with, it should be, at the least “military equipment” if not just simply “weaponry” - has gone to Israel. 22 billion, the largest amount of money and weaponry to Israel in a calendar year.

It bothers me greatly that we can see such obvious duplicity from the USA’s politicians on the democratic side. I expect it of Republicans, seeing Biden become Genocide Joe has been a wake up call for the rest of us.

well the declaration of independence was written primarily by thomas jefferson, a plantation owner, ie a slaveowner on a large scale. the 1776 war was in many ways fought on the basis of a fear that the british empire was soon going to abolish slavery in its colonies, and iirc certain colony governments such as virginia's that were initially disintered in independence shifted their orientation in large part because of that fear. like much of amerikkka's professed values, the declaration of independence is full of contradictions.

i dont know that the US, as (for now) the world's #1 imperial power, is acting against its own interests. i agree with some of the points above, that the US is losing whatever credibility it may have had in waging this escalation of genocide against palestine and lebanon, and that it is in general underestimating the risks of its policies. but i also think that to some extent, these are unavoidable contradictions of a (declining) empire trying to maintain global hegemony. i think that the empire's ideal vision right now is for the zionist entity to expand its territorial power (regardless of the genocides that involves), and for the us empire to be able to 'wash its hands' and pretend that it "tried its hardest" to prevent the zionist entity from carrying out those mass crimes and occupying more land; and that this is more or less what we see in its current material and ideological strategies. idk that it is reality based on either count, propaganda can accomplish something for a lil while but people catch on and esp when the us is literally sending weapons to commit genocides simultaneous with its absurd claims that it is trying to stop them; and the zionist entity taking more territory and further escalating genocides is not going to somehow end the anti-zionist resistance, it rly can only lead to the opposite.
but this is also the contradiction of empire, territorial expansion in many ways only increases the number of threats the empire faces, it becomes less and less equipped to handle each of those threats, and the violence it inflicts on others eventually leads to a 'boomerang effect' (cesaire) back onto itself.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

“Let the murderers investigate themselves”

That’s what is being said here.

“Hey, what about those reports of Palestinians being shot by the IDF as they tried to flee northern Gaza”

“We expect Israel to investigate itself. No we won’t be investigating”.

Just disgusting, I am sick and tired of hearing this. In no other situation worldwide does the perpetrator of the alleged crimes get to investigate themselves.

EDIT: Israel has targeted UNIFIL in Lebanon.

https://aje.io/novgpb?update=3237367

Italy summons Israeli ambassador after UN peacekeepers wounded: Report​

Italy’s defence minister has summoned the Israeli ambassador, a government source told AFP, after the UN peacekeeping force in Lebanon said it had been hit by Israeli tank fire.

The UNIFIL force, which has some 10,000 peacekeepers in south Lebanon, said that Israeli tank fire on its headquarters wounded two members.

So now members of the UN peacekeeping force have been attacked deliberately.

How much more evidence is required to prove Israel is not interested in any kind of peace?

 

[tada]

“Let the murderers investigate themselves”

That’s what is being said here.

“Hey, what about those reports of Palestinians being shot by the IDF as they tried to flee northern Gaza”

“We expect Israel to investigate itself. No we won’t be investigating”.

Just disgusting, I am sick and tired of hearing this. In no other situation worldwide does the perpetrator of the alleged crimes get to investigate themselves.

EDIT: Israel has targeted UNIFIL in Lebanon.

https://aje.io/novgpb?update=3237367



So now members of the UN peacekeeping force have been attacked deliberately.

How much more evidence is required to prove Israel is not interested in any kind of peace?

to answer your question none. The USA knows that they're not interested in peace because the usa isn't interested in peace. Someone's going to have to make them stop
As for Hezbollah, they have every right to exist as they're the ones protecting Lebanon from Israeli invasion.

 

[adjectivenoun]

to answer your question none. The USA knows that they're not interested in peace because the usa isn't interested in peace. Someone's going to have to make them stop

This is the truth. I held out hope that Biden and company were at least trying to negotiate a ceasefire ahead of the election for a while, but that hope has become untenable. The United States has a vested interest in the Zionist project as an extension of its own colonial aims. As Biden once infamously said, if Israel didn't exist, America would have to invent an Israel. American federal politicians only care about what Israel is doing insofar as it makes them look bad ahead of a major election, but they seem pretty certain that the portion of American voters who are actually willing to change their voting patterns over this is insignificant. If the United States cuts off support for Israel in the near future, it won't be because it had a change of heart.

 

[tada]

It's funny that one side is blowing up hospitals, schools, places of worship and the other is defending themselves and eliminating the people carrying out aforementioned atrocities but they're seen as the terrorists, not the first group of people.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

A civilian is a person who is not a member of an armed force nor a person engaged in hostilities.[1] from wikipedia.

So maybe there are no true Israeli civilians since being a settler is an endeavor characterised by constant hostility institutionalized in a security apparatus. It seems like you are just searching for a reason to ignore whats unfolding or else to justify it via cherry picked and truncated definitions. This is pretty low engagement and I feel there is little to be gained in spending more time on your posts.

Oh boy, this post.

Firstly:

A civilian is a person who is not a member of an armed force nor a person engaged in hostilities.[1] from wikipedia.

justify it via cherry picked and truncated definitions.

Might want to take a look in the mirror, because the Wikipedia article you cite here has a different definition from the source that it cites. Maybe try to verify that?

"civilian". Oxford English Dictionary. Oxford University Press. 2021. Retrieved 2021-10-04. A person who is not professionally employed in the armed forces; a non-military person.

So no, the Wikipedia definition isn't accurate to its sourcing. Really, it's you trying to justify the "point" that "there are no true Israeli civilians" with the very "cherrypicked and truncated definitions" you accuse me of using.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Before I go any farther, I'd like to define what a "civilian" in the context of Israel is - feel free to disagree. An Israeli civilian is someone who:

1. Is not or does not plausibly know (ex. is a child moving with their parents to a colonial expansion) that they are aiding in the genocide of Palestinians
2. Is not an active-duty IDF soldier or a IDF veteran who was involved in field operations to kill Palestinians and take Palestinian land (ex. most Haredi Jews (until recently), those granted exemptions)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Zionist colonial government does indeed spread constant hostility and promotes colonialism and displacement of Palestinians. Israeli civilians who willingly participate in the program are complicit in the genocide. But claiming that "there are no Israeli civilians" is simply false according to international law.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Oh boy, this post.

Firstly:

Might want to take a look in the mirror, because the Wikipedia article you cite here has a different definition from the source that it cites. Maybe try to verify that?

"civilian". Oxford English Dictionary. Oxford University Press. 2021. Retrieved 2021-10-04. A person who is not professionally employed in the armed forces; a non-military person.

So no, the Wikipedia definition isn't accurate to its sourcing. Really, it's you trying to justify the "point" that "there are no true Israeli civilians" with the very "cherrypicked and truncated definitions" you accuse me of using.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Before I go any farther, I'd like to define what a "civilian" in the context of Israel is - feel free to disagree. An Israeli civilian is someone who:

1. Is not or does not plausibly know (ex. is a child moving with their parents to a colonial expansion) that they are aiding in the genocide of Palestinians
2. Is not an active-duty IDF soldier or a IDF veteran who was involved in field operations to kill Palestinians and take Palestinian land (ex. most Haredi Jews (until recently), those granted exemptions)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Zionist colonial government does indeed spread constant hostility and promotes colonialism and displacement of Palestinians. Israeli civilians who willingly participate in the program are complicit in the genocide. But claiming that "there are no Israeli civilians" is simply false according to international law.

Didn't you already respond to this here? Seems a bit strange to respond to a month-old post almost 30 pages back that you already responded to back when it was posted.

 

[ant4456]

The more I read places talk about the election I see this same story over and over: Liberals talking to people who Kamala's shift right pissed off saying "Well she's allowed to do whatever she wants in order to win", "but also if you don't vote for her you're a POS"

The fact that they need to deply Obama in Pennsylvania has made their election even below my expectations months ago. Since the debate she's gotten worse and worse, this campaign should be a slam dunk. I cannot stress this enough: Trump is COUGHING BABY.

He is perhaps the LEAST effective Hitler Guy in the modern era, being an unpopular incumbent old man that few people like, with no real policy and nothing besides blind faith. What the fuck do the Democrats do when any slightly more competent fascist comes in? Walz will shake hands and sympathize with JD Vance? We'll go high and appeal to other Fascist-enablers?

Fuck the progressives in your party, we're gonna appeal to people who already probably don't wanna vote for you! W!!!!

What the fuck is this campaign, dog. I feel like I'm reading crazy shit with people acting like Kamala's campaign has been super effective while seeing polling. I saw a poll yesterday that most people in Pennsylvania support stricter policy on fracking LOL "I love fracking" Kamala take pissed me off so hard and it didn't even matter lmaoooo

It also honestly makes me wonder just how much worse it could've been with Biden lol. I was so sure that Kamala had this in the bag a month ago, but I'm starting to deadass feel like she might just straight up lose.

Clutching defeat from the jaws of victory.

 

[ant4456]

The more I read places talk about the election I see this same story over and over: Liberals talking to people who Kamala's shift right pissed off saying "Well she's allowed to do whatever she wants in order to win", "but also if you don't vote for her you're a POS"

The fact that they need to deply Obama in Pennsylvania has made their election even below my expectations months ago. Since the debate she's gotten worse and worse, this campaign should be a slam dunk. I cannot stress this enough: Trump is COUGHING BABY.

He is perhaps the LEAST effective Hitler Guy in the modern era, being an unpopular incumbent old man that few people like, with no real policy and nothing besides blind faith. What the fuck do the Democrats do when any slightly more competent fascist comes in? Walz will shake hands and sympathize with JD Vance? We'll go high and appeal to other Fascist-enablers?

Fuck the progressives in your party, we're gonna appeal to people who already probably don't wanna vote for you! W!!!!

What the fuck is this campaign, dog. I feel like I'm reading crazy shit with people acting like Kamala's campaign has been super effective while seeing polling. I saw a poll yesterday that most people in Pennsylvania support stricter policy on fracking LOL "I love fracking" Kamala take pissed me off so hard and it didn't even matter lmaoooo

It also honestly makes me wonder just how much worse it could've been with Biden lol. I was so sure that Kamala had this in the bag a month ago, but I'm starting to deadass feel like she might just straight up lose.

Clutching defeat from the jaws of victory.

why did they even put walz on the team if they were going to defang him and force him to be just another neoliberal, and never play to his strength ever LOL

like, to appeal to people like me? so you could turn him into another neolib? this shit doesn't make me wanna vote more it makes me fucking depressed seeing a genuinely good politician have his soul sucked out in live time to a terrible campaign

we aren't allowed to have progressive policy, the dickriding of cheney will continue until morale improves omfg what is this shitty ass campaign bruh im so sick of this can we just finish the election already

 

[BigFatMantis]

I was so sure that Kamala had this in the bag a month ago, but I'm starting to deadass feel like she might just straight up lose.

Clutching defeat from the jaws of victory.

I know "polls don't matter" etc. etc. but if you look at the recent polls in the major swing states, since end of September Harris's lead has continuously shrunk in every major swing state, while Trump's lead has widened. You can even see it just by looking at the shape of the graphs.

It's a concerning trend:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/georgia/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/michigan/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/nevada/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/north-carolina/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/pennsylvania/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/wisconsin/

I still think the election all comes down to Pennsylvania though, whoever wins that probably wins the whole thing, and it seems like it'll be Harris despite it trending downward. But the election is basically wide open now, when it really should have been a lock considering who the opponent is.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

I genuinely think if Harris had been more sensible on Israel, we wouldn't be having this discussion about the polls going downwards. She is haemorrhaging votes in democratic leaning parts of the country, in particular now that "Abandon Harris" has just endorsed Jill Stein.

I am predicting a Trump win, and then prison for Trump in the pretty easy to see coming plot twist...

 

[Divine Retribution]

If Trump wins, the chances of him going to prison (which honestly are already pretty narrow; this country just doesn't jail rich politicians no matter how egregious their crimes) go to zero. The local McDonalds is liable to deny you a job flipping burgers if you have a recent felony on your record, but apparently you can waltz on into the Presidency right after being convicted of 34 of them.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

If Trump wins, the chances of him going to prison (which honestly are already pretty narrow; this country just doesn't jail rich politicians no matter how egregious their crimes) go to zero. The local McDonalds is liable to deny you a job flipping burgers if you have a recent felony on your record, but apparently you can waltz on into the Presidency right after being convicted of 34 of them.

This feels like the height of western insanity to me.