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The Ubers council has decided to suspect test Miraidon!
Back in March of this year, Miraidon narrowly avoided being banned from Ubers, with 62.4% of qualified voters voting to ban it, falling below the 66.6% threshold required to ban a Pokémon from Ubers. Since then, the Ubers metagame has seen a great number of changes, from the banning of Last Respects removing the necessity for random Tera Normals to the rise of hyper offense as the dominant playstyle in the metagame, this metagame is noticeably different from the metagame in which Miraidon was last suspected.
Miraidon has undoubtedly been at the forefront of discussion since day one of SV, with many calling for its ban even during pre-HOME, and has thus been on all of our surveys this generation. In the survey prior to its previous suspect, Miraidon averaged 6.48/10 from the overall player base and 6.78/10 from the qualified player base. Since then, there has been one further survey in which it rose to 6.95/10 and 6.83/10 respectively. Furthermore, enjoyment has fallen from 6.59/10 to 6.22/10 and stability has remained at 5.67/10 despite the banning of Last Respects in the time since.
Miraidon has among the most powerful and polarizing offensive tools ever attributed to a Pokemon. The tier has few viable and consistent defensive tools for combating Miraidon, which has an impact on the viability of reactive playstyles. Miraidon has a plethora of sets, with the most notable being Tera Stellar Life Orb 3 Attacks (Electro Drift, Draco Meteor, Overheat) with a choice of Agility or Calm Mind as the final move. This set has gained traction over the last few months and was rarely seen at the time of the original Miraidon suspect. Balance as a playstyle has thus fallen to the wayside as a result of these metagame shifts, as made evident by the drop in usage of balance staples such as Ho-oh and Ting-Lu from UPL and World Cup to the first 4 weeks of SCL.
There has also been growing discontent that it feels like games come down to speed ties, largely in part between Miraidon and Koraidon at 405, in which both players feel their best outs are to go for an effective coin flip. This problem has grown since the previous suspect test as more and more players experiment with non-Scarf Koraidon sets, such as Loaded Dice or Life Orb, which has also lessened the presence of one consistent form of counterplay to most Miraidon sets.
This all being said, Miraidon did fail a suspect test prior, and while this may have been in part due to the bigger elephant in the room being Last Respects, it is not without counterplay. Primarily, Iron Treads does beat most Miraidon sets, only struggling into Overheat variants, and even against those it will Volt Switch into the second form of key counterplay, faster Pokémon. Scarf Koraidon is still a popular set despite its downtick in usage and Zacian-C has began to carry Play Rough far more often to more consistently deal with Miraidon. We've also seen new Scarfers take the place of Koraidon, being Landorus-T, Kyogre, and even Miraidon itself - and Miraidon checking itself does not make it inherently toxic, that has historically been the case for many Ubers.
Stall has also seen a large increase in usage since previous metas, rising with the decrease in overall balance usage. This does show that defensive counterplay can still exist with Miraidon around, with new developments like max Sp.Def Tera Grass Ho-Oh and the usual suspects of Blissey and Clodsire being decent checks to it when paired to either wall non-LO sets or chip down the LO sets that can 2HKO everything at +1. Miraidon also struggles with longevity when it is not Heavy-Duty Boots and can often find itself in a struggle between it and a need for the power of Life Orb, a problem which is best shown here.
Due to the recency of the previous suspect test, we were going to wait and see with further data as to whether any tiering action would be necessary. However, SCL has started, and there has been an outcry from both SCL Ubers players and community alike about the state of the metagame, which has sparked numerous discussions in the Ubers Discord. As mentioned in the survey results post, we did not intend to suspect Miraidon at this time given the recency of the previous suspect (despite it reaching results that would normally trigger a suspect test) but these combined factors have led the council to decide to hold a suspect at this moment. You can see the results of this vote below:
Name
Aberforth
Fc
Edgar
entrocefalo
Fogbound Lake
Kate
Manaphy
Minority
SiTuM
Miraidon
Suspect
Suspect
Do Not Suspect
Suspect
Did Not Vote
Suspect
Suspect
Do Not Suspect
Do Not Suspect
Suspect Test Information
The voting requirements are a minimum COIL of 3000 using a B value of 5.3. A table outlining the number of required games played will be outlined below.
You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokémon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be UBDG. For example, I might sign up with the ladder account UBDG Aberforth.
Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokémon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitation when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
We will be posting the voting identification thread shortly after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a moderator. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
The suspect test will go on for ten days, lasting until Saturday October 19th, 10:30 PM GMT -4, and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
Games Played
GXE
20
90.123
25
86.872
26
86.382
27
85.931
28
85.515
29
85.129
30
84.77
31
84.436
32
84.124
33
83.832
34
83.558
35
83.3
36
83.058
37
82.829
38
82.613
39
82.408
40
82.214
41
82.03
42
81.856
43
81.689
44
81.531
45
81.38
46
81.235
47
81.097
48
80.965
49
80.839
50
80.718
51
80.602
52
80.49
53
80.383
54
80.28
55
80.181
56
80.085
57
79.993
58
79.904
59
79.818
60
79.736
61
79.656
62
79.578
63
79.503
64
79.431
65
79.361
66
79.293
67
79.227
68
79.163
69
79.101
70
79.041
80
78.524
90
78.125
100
77.806
150
76.86
200
76.39
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, more so than the average Ubers forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:
Suspect Test Rules
Do not discuss the banning of other topics such as Koraidon or Terastallization. Posts involving those will be deleted.
No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts.
No discussion on other potential suspects.
No discussion on the suspect process.
You are required to make respectful posts.
Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the Ubers Council and the Ubers Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokémon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokémon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokémon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the Ubers Council, an Ubers Tier Leader (myself or Fc), or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.
In order to ban Miraidon, a 66.6% supermajority will be required. If you meet the requirements then post a screenshot in the voting requirements thread - but please take note of the criteria outlined there when you do in order to be eligible!
Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!
Miraidon is one of my favorite mons of all time unfortunately it is one of the most unhealthy mons around. The biggest problem with this mon that I learned over time is that you absolutely can’t build a successful uber team without taking it into consideration. Which happens in all metagames there is always a star, however Miraidon is more than just the best mon around. With every option that is good against it defensively leaves you absolutely exploited by it’s teammates. Balance as a playstyle is on life support because the cycle that miraidon forces in the builder of trying not to lose to it then realizing you have to out offense it to beat it most of the time often with your own miraidon/koriadon or just hoping its not running the set that beats your check. A great player once told me about metagames is that if you only see the extremes of playstyles it’s a signs that things might be unhealthy. Lately around tours you are mainly seeing some form of HO or on the other end highly specialized stalls that also must dedicate often 2 slots to hope it can prevent from sweeping. As a miraidon merchant you can force so many 50/50s without thinking much about it at all regardless of what you go against. Miraidon is a universal threat for every playstyle. I don’t really wanna do calcs or post replays cause idt that’s really helpful but speaking of my own experience miraidon is the mon to beat and fear.
Well well, we meet again. Last time I was here the meta was still relatively in its infancy as far as DLC2 is concerned. Since then, optimizations have popped up. Arceus-Ghost has been putting in triple doubles in every webs game on the planet, Ting lu, Flutter Mane and NDM have fallen off and bulkier teams have drastically dropped in effectiveness.
Ting lu falling off in this enviroment is the biggest thing, as Agility Miraidon has stormed to the forefront as one of its most dangerous sets as eluded in the OP. I'll list offensive counterplay primarily, as I've gone through defensive counterplay in depth in the last suspect here, though some changes like Treads gaining viability and Groudon/Flutter Mane pmuch disappearing entirely have changed it somewhat.
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(Organized in order of Speed-Ties, Priority, Quark Drive, Scarfers, and being naturally faster respectively)
This is effectively everything you can use to realistically check Miraidon offensively, Tera not-withstanding. Speed-tie crew needs no introductions I don't think I need to elaborate why speed-ties are inconsistent and with Miraidon in particular forcing yourself into -2 is an abusable spot if your not careful. It's also worth noting Chien-Pao is like, a B rank pokemon at the highest and is not seen often if at all in many tournaments. For instance, it has seen a total of zero uses in HPL as of the start of semifinals, while Flutter mane only saw 1 use. In SCL, both Chien-Pao and Flutter mane have only 1 use each to their name by the midseason auction range, which can be seen here and here. Onto priority, Kingambit and Ekiller fair slightly better, though the latter has to respect Tera Ghost as an option on Miraidon specifically for it, which is quite common on Boots Miraidons or other Agility Miraidons outside of the stellar set, while Kingambit requires mons to be dead to put a significant dent in it otherwise Sucker Punch with a Dread Plate clocks in at roughly 48% on average while 4 mons dead gives it roughly 68%.
Quark Drive camp mostly speaks for itself, Iron bundles main flaws stem from actually hitting Hydro Pumps on targets like Zacian-Crowned, and usually fails to get the OHKOs it wants to get as even Miraidon lives an Ice beam from full discounting tera on both sides. Treads has seen a surge in viability since the last suspect and admittedly, does help matters into non Overheat sets. Sadly, Agility Miraidon pretty much stomps this entire category out, same with the Speed-tie group.
Scarfers is a more interesting discussion as the viability of them fluctuates drastically between them. Koraidon is the most common, though the OP goes over why scarf Koraidon has seen diminutive use so I won't fester on that point. Miraidon as a scarfer is a bit of a waste alongside the even more painful thing of being locked into a -2 Draco, though admittedly that can be seen as both a flaw and boon for each side here. Landorus-T has popped up as a scarfer unhindered by webs, and Ho-oh follows that same road. Both of them have seen tour success, the latter used by me specifically vs Dark Shion in PTPL but beyond that its mostly unseen, admittedly. Kyogre is a waste of both a scarfer and a Kyogre, but it does have more tour use and success than Scarf Ho-oh so I'm ranking it on that basis but personally I'm not a fan.
Naturally faster camp is also somewhat bleak. Zacian-Crowned is an excellent pokemon but it mandates the otherwise unnecessary play rough to do this job effectively, but it packs a Draco immunity so it has pivot utility vs Miraidon. Deoxys-Attack... its just weird man. This mon in theory is great but because it explodes from spitting a toothpick out of a straw it doesn't see much use outside of suicide leading with Sash Counter and spikes. It's not very common either, as it has zero uses in HPL and SCL only has 1 use by Richard... and he sent it into a Behemoth Blade as fodder and it didn't even click a move so you tell me what I'm supposed to say to that.
The funniest part about all of this? It doesn't matter Agility beats all of this. Beyond Kingambit/Ekiller and emergency Teras, Agility Miraidon just ignores everything I've just mentioned as traditional offensive counterplay. With how offensive this tier has become with HO/Offense dominating the usage charts due to Miraidon's general inability to be handled defensively beyond hardcore stall, this bolsters the viability of other Miraidon sets custom tailored to smash past Offensive teams. This dynamic is wildly unhealthy, and the way it abuses the restrictions forced by its other sets is unlike anything Ubers has seen before or since, and for that reason I'm voting Ban, and I implore people to do the same.
Now for the elephant in the room that I know will be mentioned sometime in this thread.
Koraidon is a comically strong pokemon, sure. But the checks to it have more promise than Miraidon for a couple reasons. Koraidons reliance on attacking to get speed boosts is abuseable by Fairies for scale shots, and rocky helmets from the likes of Landorus-T for Flame charge. Arceus forms like Water/Fairy/Ghost are able to stomach its onslaught and respond back properly, while things like Ho-oh, Kyogre, and Gliscor can slow it down paired with its infinitely worse longevity. Additionally, banning Miraidon will make Koraidon more reasonable to deal with. Electric Terrain the primary reason Rest Kyogre died death, and the ability to run phys def rest talk, alongside Dondozo, are options that would open up with Miraidon's departure. Defensive Ho-oh will also be easier to use without Miraidon breathing down its neck, and pokemon Koraidon abuses like Ting lu will pretty much cease to exist giving it less opportunities. For these reasons, you should vote Ban here instead of simply biding time for a follow up on Koraidon. Koraidon will become easier once you can allocate more resources to handling it with Miraidon gone, so don't vote DNB just because you want Koraidon gone instead.
This meta rn is so bad it's p much unplayable at this point. It made me from being a ss hater to actually liking it. Idk if mirai is most broken or not but it's the thing whose ban will affect the tier the least unlike banning korai Or zac which will make ogre or bikes even more broken. Every game is mostly decided by matchup cos it's so rare u will see a balance vs balance and u have to deal with stupid 50-50s every game. I think mirai is prolly a bit overpowered by itself but it absolutely does make the meta much worse and banning it will def reduce the amount of coinflips and bs per game. So will vote ban on mirai and hope I don't see some insanely stupid arguments to defend it like last time.
Don't have a tonne to add that hasn't been said so far. This mon's been deeply unhealthy since day one and while it isn't the sole issue in this tier (tbch Koraidon IS more broken but most people aren't ready for that conversation), something has to change lest we play HO hell with the d20 roll of running into stall that still lose to most common Miraidon sets. Not every playstyle HAS to be viable in every metagame but the state of this tier right now is just unfun, offense led Ubers tiers such as BW can be incredibly fun to play but this tier has too many bs breakers and cleaners as well as stupid fucking Sticky Web to be enjoyable. Literally the most consistent team I could find for getting reqs (s/o Aberforth and Frito for passing stuff because I hate building right now) relied on triple Sash + Eject Pack Miraidon because playing genuine teams ends up being more inconsistent than loading chungus HO bullshit. Oh and speed ties suck - you can argue not to play into those positions but when Miraidon ties with 2 of their mons, as well as your own Koraidon, that's already likely, and this doesn't even account for Zacian-C or even Arceus speed ties that have began to crop up. I'll be glad to see this thing gone to say the least...
ps Iron Treads is fucking awful and I despise how good it is :(
I'm hoping that this does not come across as a forum mainer post as I'm not currently involved in this metagame. Ubers tiers are my favourite tiers, but I have not mained Ubers since USM. When SV came out it was the bike show and I waited for home to release and the suspect test(s) I assumed would follow shortly after. I had fun laddering at the time, but that was more due to some nostalgia and it being fresh rather than enjoying the metagame itself. I assumed a suspect test on Miradon was imminent and planned to hop back in and get reqs for that.
As time progressed my impression was that the Ubers playerbase enjoyed, or at least tolerated the metagame at that time due to lack of a mention surrounding any suspects. Thats fine, no one is entitled to a metagame tailored to their preferences and I was and am fine waiting until the next generation in hope of an Ubers metagame I liked as I did during SS. I still enjoy watching tournament games, but these have only reinforced the notion that spectating SV Ubers is far more enjoyable than playing it for me.
While spectating from afar is very different from playing, discussing the tier with Entro has done little to motivate me to give the it another go until now. Many of the sentiments he has expressed can be found in the OP and the posts above mine. So my ears perked up a bit when the intial Miradon suspect was announced. I'd planned to get reqs, but work, irl stuff, and other smogon commitments did not leave me with the time to even attempt to get reqs. Unfortunately things have not slowed down, but I think I might have a free day or two next week so fingers crossed. I'd be shocked if the 35-40 games it will likely take to get reqs provide an accurate picture of the metagame. So I'd like to ask a few questions for experienced players to hopefully better understand some things, particularly from the anti-ban contingent.
For those that voted DNB on Miradon, but voted to ban Last Respects, what separates the two in your mind? I recall from those threads a common sentiment expressed by the DNB crowd on Miradon was essentially 'git gud' and buckle up because this is Ubers and stuff hits hard so deal with it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but seeing this followed up by Last Respects being banned with >90% was surprising given the same logic applies. From an outside perspective it seems like that argument applies to both, but Basculegion being a shitmon with a broken move is viewed quite differently from Miradon despite both having an (arguably unhealthy) strain in the builder and in battle.
How do you weigh the impact of the speed ties as described in the OP? The offensive centralization around the 135 speed tier is something I've disliked about SV Ubers for its entirety, but experience does make a difference. This is something I've noticed from casually watching the game, but watching v experiencing something is quite different. This is pretty different from the centralization around the 90 speed tier of other Ubers metagames.
What benefits does Miradon bring to the tier? A mon not bringing many benefits to the tier isn't a reason to ban it in and of itself, but the OP doesn't make a compelling reason to keep Miradon around. Miradon clearly has some level of undesirable direct and indirect impacts on the metagame. There are obviously many players who believe these do not pass the threshold into banworthy territory, but what positive aspects does Miradon bring to the metagame that offset the issues brought up in this thead and others?
If I have the time to get reqs next week I'm likely vote vote to ban Miradon, but I'd like to ensure I'm making as informed as a decision as possible rather than rely on my limited knowledge, experience, and vibes. Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time read to this and answer my questions! I hope all of your suspect runs go smoothly with a minimal amount of ladder tomfoolery.
I'd be shocked if the 35-40 games it will likely take to get reqs provide an accurate picture of the metagame. So I'd like to ask a few questions for experienced players to hopefully better understand some things, particularly from the anti-ban contingent.
For those that voted DNB on Miradon, but voted to ban Last Respects, what separates the two in your mind? I recall from those threads a common sentiment expressed by the DNB crowd on Miradon was essentially 'git gud' and buckle up because this is Ubers and stuff hits hard so deal with it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but seeing this followed up by Last Respects being banned with >90% was surprising given the same logic applies. From an outside perspective it seems like that argument applies to both, but Basculegion being a shitmon with a broken move is viewed quite differently from Miradon despite both having an (arguably unhealthy) strain in the builder and in battle.
How do you weigh the impact of the speed ties as described in the OP? The offensive centralization around the 135 speed tier is something I've disliked about SV Ubers for its entirety, but experience does make a difference. This is something I've noticed from casually watching the game, but watching v experiencing something is quite different. This is pretty different from the centralization around the 90 speed tier of other Ubers metagames.
What benefits does Miradon bring to the tier? A mon not bringing many benefits to the tier isn't a reason to ban it in and of itself, but the OP doesn't make a compelling reason to keep Miradon around. Miradon clearly has some level of undesirable direct and indirect impacts on the metagame. There are obviously many players who believe these do not pass the threshold into banworthy territory, but what positive aspects does Miradon bring to the metagame that offset the issues brought up in this thead and others?
I snipped some of the other stuff to talk about these points. Very doubtful if ladder run will be representative of the metagame, ladder is notoriously bad quality wise in terms of team structures but it's the prereq to get vote and isn't too hard to get with just loading a good team. For the other stuff.
1. I didn't do the mirai sus but I did last respects (voted ban) and I would've voted Dnb on mirai originally had I participated. The worst part about Last Respects in conjunction with Bascu is that it mandated a Tera normal on every team (on a fat mon) and to not it exhaust so you don't lose to last mon Bascu. This meant you couldn't defensively Tera against either the Bikes or offensive Arc to stop them from sweeping. I didn't like the constraint this put on building when it almost felt impossible to cover everything else.
2. I don't like the way it's framed in the OP because I've been pretty avid believer the worst offender of these ties is Koraidon, not Miraidon. Most of the SCL games I have watched shows this as well.
3. Additional checks to Arceus especially to hold back DemonArc (ID, CM), nerfs Sleep due to it's E-Terrain which doesn't require an additional clause, check to Kyogre a very powerful mon, check to Ho-Oh, some other niche Tera scenarios. There's a benefit to having Mirai to the tier but unfortunately I don't think it's possible to have these benefits long term with its paradox brother in the format as well. Having both in the format is too much.
While I'm probably not going to ladder this time and while my post may seem like a defense for Mirai I would probably vote to ban it if I bother getting reqs. I don't agree with Lbn's analaysis they put in the hide regarding Korai but I do agree with the point we shouldn't be voting dnb on Mirai in the case someone wants the other bike gone. Unfortunately both these bikes are realistically AG mons, asking the mods to not edit my post regarding Korai points as it was the only way to convey my thoughts.
honestly mirai is kind of busted, not only does it carry me through the stall Mu, it also forces teams to have a bulky ground somewhere, sometimes two and sometimes even shit like ting lu which would have like practically zero usage if mirai isn't around, and spdef groundy is a set just because of mirai existing. The suspect run is a pain in the ass rn, either I face bs or its stuff like rng that make me lose and take longer to get reqs, then again, I am not the greatest player of all time, so maybe its skill issue.
However, mirai is still broke asf, forced usage of spdef grounds like lu is honestly stupid, this is similar to g8 caly but at least yvel was a good Mon even without caly.
therefore if I ever actually succeed in getting reqs (very unlikely but I'm trying my best), Im voting ban and I hope pokeaimmd don't come to influence his fans to ruin this one like the last.
(but if we ban this thing to AG gf might see this and nerf them in the future me no like nerfs but that's outside of the main point.)
I got reqs and I'm honestly unsure what I am going to vote, seems like the overwhelming consensus here is ban, so what are some arguments for keeping it in the tier? Just want to fully understand both perspectives.
After Highlord was fired for negligence I have taken over as Miraidon's primary lawyer. I will be voting DO NOT BANon miraidon. My client is innocent.
I voted do not ban last time and I thought I made a post in the thread but I didn't so now I have to actually talk about my opinion instead of copy pasting. While I think Miraidon is slightly better now with recent discoveries like tera stellar cm, I still don't think it gets pushed over the edge and I think the metagame is still in a very undeveloped state which causes the concerns. A lot of these spawned over SCL, where HO has been the dominant playstyle throughout the first 4 weeks. I was on board with suspecting Miraidon again because the vast majroity of people who play this tier at a high level thought there were issues with it, I just don't agree though.
The main complaint seems to be that people run into too many speed ties that decide games, and while I've seen it in games people play I feel like it's more a result of complacency rather than it being a necessity in the meta to succeed. Throughout ubers open after watching back all my replays I posted I ran into a single speed tie that had any chance of mattering, in a game where I could have still won if I hit a fire blast. I think the HO metagame has just been pushed a lot faster and people aren't exploring any other options enough, which leads to instances where teams are using all of koraidon miraidon zacian-c and arceus on both sides with no pivots, so they're all just throwing out moves and become way more likely to need to speed tie. I think especially in tournaments we're still yet to see the extent of what the metagame can do as a response to it, with things like Ditto being incredibly underused and HO cteams like Hatterene not existing. Chien-Pao and Iron Bundle both see very low usage still despite having good qualities and also being strong into Miraidon, and even small tweaks to teams like PRough/Ground Blast on Zacian or Custap Berry on smth like Kyogre can go a long way in an offense meta. I don't think this style is exactly overpowered and I think speed ties should be a complete last resort in a game if you're already behind, but they happen far too often in positions they don't need to due to either building issues with wrong teras, lack of anti bike options, or just due to playing into those positions.
I'm also still of the belief that bulkier teams aren't unviable, and I think they can still do decently. Builds like this from SCL which have strong pressure and speed from Korai and Zacian, good soft options into bikes like fairy ogre and presumably ww ting are still viable, they just need to have the right tools picked out for the job in an offense based metagame. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with offense being the dominating style despite prefering slower games myself, but to call anything non HO completely unviable would just be incorrect. Offense that isn't full HO with a suicide lead consisting of things like treads lando support fairyceus ditto type mons along with bikes and zacian for pressure are completely valid, and especially with ditto tend to be good into current meta trends. Stall is also possibly better than ever in this gen it's just not an easy playstyle to use, but it's the bulkiest playstyle you can get and even with mirai + korai on almost every team it can still exist due to its strengths if you build it correctly to handle the stronger breaking sets like cb korai and stellar mirai.
I'm well aware this has become the less common opinion atp but I think the meta, while not my favourite ubers, is relatively stable all things considered and Miraidon doesn't push to the level of brokenness that I think other banned mons have done in the past. I'm not gonna try to predict the next meta if it goes and judge based on that since a lot of guesses can just end up being completely wrong, but I don't think Miraidon needs to be banned rn and I think this meta still has a lot of exploration that can be done.
After Highlord was fired for negligence I have taken over as Miraidon's primary lawyer. I will be voting DO NOT BANon miraidon. My client is innocent.
I voted do not ban last time and I thought I made a post in the thread but I didn't so now I have to actually talk about my opinion instead of copy pasting. While I think Miraidon is slightly better now with recent discoveries like tera stellar cm, I still don't think it gets pushed over the edge and I think the metagame is still in a very undeveloped state which causes the concerns. A lot of these spawned over SCL, where HO has been the dominant playstyle throughout the first 4 weeks. I was on board with suspecting Miraidon again because the vast majroity of people who play this tier at a high level thought there were issues with it, I just don't agree though.
The main complaint seems to be that people run into too many speed ties that decide games, and while I've seen it in games people play I feel like it's more a result of complacency rather than it being a necessity in the meta to succeed. Throughout ubers open after watching back all my replays I posted I ran into a single speed tie that had any chance of mattering, in a game where I could have still won if I hit a fire blast. I think the HO metagame has just been pushed a lot faster and people aren't exploring any other options enough, which leads to instances where teams are using all of koraidon miraidon zacian-c and arceus on both sides with no pivots, so they're all just throwing out moves and become way more likely to need to speed tie. I think especially in tournaments we're still yet to see the extent of what the metagame can do as a response to it, with things like Ditto being incredibly underused and HO cteams like Hatterene not existing. Chien-Pao and Iron Bundle both see very low usage still despite having good qualities and also being strong into Miraidon, and even small tweaks to teams like PRough/Ground Blast on Zacian or Custap Berry on smth like Kyogre can go a long way in an offense meta. I don't think this style is exactly overpowered and I think speed ties should be a complete last resort in a game if you're already behind, but they happen far too often in positions they don't need to due to either building issues with wrong teras, lack of anti bike options, or just due to playing into those positions.
I'm also still of the belief that bulkier teams aren't unviable, and I think they can still do decently. Builds like this from SCL which have strong pressure and speed from Korai and Zacian, good soft options into bikes like fairy ogre and presumably ww ting are still viable, they just need to have the right tools picked out for the job in an offense based metagame. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with offense being the dominating style despite prefering slower games myself, but to call anything non HO completely unviable would just be incorrect. Offense that isn't full HO with a suicide lead consisting of things like treads lando support fairyceus ditto type mons along with bikes and zacian for pressure are completely valid, and especially with ditto tend to be good into current meta trends. Stall is also possibly better than ever in this gen it's just not an easy playstyle to use, but it's the bulkiest playstyle you can get and even with mirai + korai on almost every team it can still exist due to its strengths if you build it correctly to handle the stronger breaking sets like cb korai and stellar mirai.
I'm well aware this has become the less common opinion atp but I think the meta, while not my favourite ubers, is relatively stable all things considered and Miraidon doesn't push to the level of brokenness that I think other banned mons have done in the past. I'm not gonna try to predict the next meta if it goes and judge based on that since a lot of guesses can just end up being completely wrong, but I don't think Miraidon needs to be banned rn and I think this meta still has a lot of exploration that can be done.
Over the time I find it is just impossible to discuss the impact of one of the bike without mentioning the other. Also it seems we just refuse to take action on both but on one of them instead. This makes me consistently upset on the tiering decision since the 1st miraidon suspect, but it is what it is.
Let me explain some kindergarden questions (imo) before going to my opinion. I won't go too deep on some 1v1 mu as those are just too common sense and I don't think they are nesscary to be stated in this thread. The below is assuming you have the standard knowledge about SV ubers, such as usage, inter-pokemon match-up and stuff.
Q1. Why is offense the most dominant style rn?
A1. There is a lot of good suicide lead in SV ubers comparing to before, and on top of that offensive mons abusing hazards are too hard to stop when you can't reliably remove hazards due to lacking reliable defog, limitation on spinning and the limited viability of Magic bounce holder. On top of that, Koraidon has scaleshot, a move that grands koraidon the ability to 2hko the world if it can land one 5-hits, zacian-crown abusing tera who can potentially sweep any non-unaware team under webs. This two is way too threatening and fitting each other that it is almost impossible to defesively stop them from cleaning if you are not running a team with 4 mons dedicated to check them, including intimitate, weather control, scarfer and a 252-252 bulky arceus in fairy type or ground type whatsoever, and from that point people start finding that miraidon becomes problematic because you have only 2 slot left for it while miraidon itself is undoubtedly powerful enough to require more than one check to handle in the team. This is mostly supported in the recent stall attempt in the tier: you can really see that stall teams is cutting the budget on spdef side as much as they can in order to increase their resources to handle the physical violence in the tier rn. The physical pressure is in a historical-high, and on top of that miraidon itself is sufficiently powerful spatker in the tier which stopped teams from running 5 or even 6 phydef mon, leading to a overall failure on building a reliable "defesive-orientated balance team", leading to an offense meta overall.
Q2. How much does miraidon involved in this trend and in what way it is affecting the tier during this trend?
A2. As abovementioned, in terms of assisting the physical violence it does pretty well. On the other hand, unlike the widely spammed swords dance (and dragon dance), nasty plot is so much less seen in the ubers which leads to the lacking of burst power in terms of the spatk side. This reflected perfectly in the SV ubers rn: Multiple setup sweepers are often seen in offense in the physical side, and left miraidon being the only Spatk powerhouse in those teams. This is getting perfectly supported on the way of stall players are picking their mons, that is reducing the budget in spdef side. You can easily deduce that Miraidon is actually not a breaker based on how the playerbase is dealing with it rn.
So if such a strong powerhouse is not to break, what else it can do? one is pretty obvious, to sweep. Its raw power is good enough to be a strong sweeper without any boost, and its speedtier is also good enough to let it sweep without any speed boost. In order to maintain the sweeper ability,
people put boots on it to maximize its ability of entering the field. Since you don't rely miraidon to break anymore, you rather put some assisting move comparing to boosting move on it, so we are seeing a lot of taunt and U-turn on those miraidon, where you just never see koraidon running such sets even though in theory koraidon can do the exact same.
Its ability to taunt fast intimating the attempt of suicide lead, to an extend that forced some anti-miraidon lead varient such as the well-known Scarf Ribombee and mud-shot glimmora. It also threatens people from click boosting move infinitely because its stabs are powerful enough to invalidate them. Overall, in a meta that every attack could be lethal, to be able to taunt relatively safe and be threatening as well is a unique quality of Miraidon in the current metagame.
If the above does not sound clear to you, in summary,
Miraidon is actually helping to the tier stability to be one of the fastest taunt and a stable sweeper.
Understanding the above and you can try to interpret a bit of the effect of removing Miraidon. First of all, since Miraidon more a sweeper but not a breaker, the removal of it will be likely enhancing the usage of set-up varient. Koraidon is facing less pressure on speed issue so that it can now run more Adamant than Jolly which significantly reduce the need of scaleshot hitting 5 in order to archeive 2HKO. Miraidon is so unique on its role that after it is gone there is no replacement of a combination of "fast taunt", "threatening severe damage and sweep" and "ubers tier bulk" and now it would be harder to stop those leads doing their job, which may possibly end up with people forcing to use less viable mon such as hatterene or even xatu. Meanwhile, even tho breaking with spatker is way way way less than phyatker, it does not mean that there will be no spatk breaker after miraidon is gone. Chiyu's crazy power was long proven back in prehome, not to mention there is still raging bolt and walking wake as potential breaker, while none of them has the package of fast taunt with decent bulks in ubers that allows them to do something productive besides spamming destructive move.
Again, it is just not fair to only mention Miraidon while leaving Koraidon alone. You may argue that Koraidon could fill those role after Miraidon is gone, but that is really underestimating the destructive power of a SD Koraidon. In short, Koraidon overall is trading its hp with flare blitz at the highest efficiency we have ever seen in ubers with the threat of scaleshot boosting its speed while 2hkoing your non-fairy switch-in. Our limited option of "checks" pretty much relies on Koraidon flare-blitzing/scaleshoting the wrong guy, then try to finish it off with priority/scarfers/zacian-crown. Thats how difficult we handle Koraidon at the point, and that also shows how absurd a Koraidon can be. As such, there is a huge opportunity cost to NOT RUN such set (let alone scarf is also great), and Koraidon has also overall worse mu to those leads comparing to Miraidon (ie ribombee, physical attack into glimmora etc). I am truely worried about the stability of the tier after Miraidon is gone.
Being said, I will vote Ban if I even bother to play the reqs because WHY NOT TO HAVE SOME CHAOS OH YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
I'd love it if it's gone from the tier but during the suspect run, it didn't feel that oppressive to confirm that it's broken but it's definitely up there
It's the kinfd of thing i wouldn't mind getting banned but i don't feel it's brokenness in practice.
This might owe to how i used it as well and that would have left a bias in me, so i'll wait to make my judgement on this mon
I'd love it if it's gone from the tier but during the suspect run, it didn't feel that oppressive to confirm that it's broken but it's definitely up there
It's the kinfd of thing i wouldn't mind getting banned but i don't feel it's brokenness in practice.
This might owe to how i used it as well and that would have left a bias in me, so i'll wait to make my judgement on this mon
While I think Miraidon is slightly better now with recent discoveries like tera stellar cm, I still don't think it gets pushed over the edge and I think the metagame is still in a very undeveloped state which causes the concerns. A lot of these spawned over SCL, where HO has been the dominant playstyle throughout the first 4 weeks. I was on board with suspecting Miraidon again because the vast majroity of people who play this tier at a high level thought there were issues with it, I just don't agree though.
ik this is not really a core point u made but just a passing comment, but if ubers is still very undeveloped to the extent that the mira or bike problem can be solved later on after its been out for 2 years, and 2 scls, then that just means the uber playerbase is mid and u have to adjust ur expectations. if the mira issue thru meta development has not been solved yet, it will never will so u cant just keep mira around and throw up a prayer thinking it will be less broken later on
The main complaint seems to be that people run into too many speed ties that decide games, and while I've seen it in games people play I feel like it's more a result of complacency rather than it being a necessity in the meta to succeed. Throughout ubers open after watching back all my replays I posted I ran into a single speed tie that had any chance of mattering, in a game where I could have still won if I hit a fire blast.
I think I speak for everyone in ubers when I say the amount of restriction we face with speed ties more so has to do with not resigning urself with going for the speed ties unless u absolutely have to. that in itself does not sound like a problem, because its a pretty common thing to avoid in many other tiers.
the problem with bikes are that their power creep is out of this world and limit the viable alternative plays u have at any given turn. by just trying to avoid letting the game come down to a speed tie, u devolve the games down to a complete brain dead 50/50s with very predictable lines that takes away the advantage of being an overall better player than ur opponent. i wouldnt be surprised if actual ties dont occur as much as we complain about, but the issue is far far bigger than just whether or not u see actual speed ties in the games. (btw they happen still, a lot this scl too)
I think especially in tournaments we're still yet to see the extent of what the metagame can do as a response to it, with things like Ditto being incredibly underused and HO cteams like Hatterene not existing. Chien-Pao and Iron Bundle both see very low usage still despite having good qualities and also being strong into Miraidon, and even small tweaks to teams like PRough/Ground Blast on Zacian or Custap Berry on smth like Kyogre can go a long way in an offense meta. I don't think this style is exactly overpowered and I think speed ties should be a complete last resort in a game if you're already behind, but they happen far too often in positions they don't need to due to either building issues with wrong teras, lack of anti bike options, or just due to playing into those positions.
I'm also still of the belief that bulkier teams aren't unviable, and I think they can still do decently. Builds like this from SCL which have strong pressure and speed from Korai and Zacian, good soft options into bikes like fairy ogre and presumably ww ting are still viable, they just need to have the right tools picked out for the job in an offense based metagame. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with offense being the dominating style despite prefering slower games myself, but to call anything non HO completely unviable would just be incorrect. Offense that isn't full HO with a suicide lead consisting of things like treads lando support fairyceus ditto type mons along with bikes and zacian for pressure are completely valid, and especially with ditto tend to be good into current meta trends. Stall is also possibly better than ever in this gen it's just not an easy playstyle to use, but it's the bulkiest playstyle you can get and even with mirai + korai on almost every team it can still exist due to its strengths if you build it correctly to handle the stronger breaking sets like cb korai and stellar mirai.
Not sure what to say here cause i dont think any of these are relevant to mira. HO being dominant largely has to do with kora Zac and mira just being better mons than anything else. The idea behind banning mira is to give less burden for every playstyle across board to deal with. Bulkier teams will benefit more from this ofc, which happens to be a good thing rn if people want the HO spam to hinder.
as far as ditto, hatt and other anti HO counter measures. i mean sure ig that can make people build their HO more carefully now with some improof options (which tera helps a ton with, so SV is arguably the best gen for HO to not give too much fuck about ditto), people will have to get more creative with their builds or etc. but like this is just all wishful thinking. the most ditto will do is change some tera types, or people will not use dedicated suicide leads, but just more max def lando or other improof strat. mira dominance will still be there, nothing will change, this is all pointless talk
I'm well aware this has become the less common opinion atp but I think the meta, while not my favourite ubers, is relatively stable all things considered and Miraidon doesn't push to the level of brokenness that I think other banned mons have done in the past. I'm not gonna try to predict the next meta if it goes and judge based on that since a lot of guesses can just end up being completely wrong, but I don't think Miraidon needs to be banned rn and I think this meta still has a lot of exploration that can be done.
nobody cares that its stable. stable here means that u just have to run HO every game with some gimmick and hope u can play around well enough to not let it come down to speed ties. either lose on ur own terms with sub optimal lines, or go for the ties.
the problem is that its not fun. 0 reason to settle for a dog shit boring because things are not totally broken atm. the threshold for mira to be banned already exceeds every other tiers's, and this toxic mindset of just settling because things are not as bad as mray in usum is whats been killing modern era Ubers for a while. yall need to adapt to the ages and start banning shit that drives ur playerbase away, fun factor is indeed a big big factor behind mons. Stability is only second to it.
After Highlord was fired for negligence I have taken over as Miraidon's primary lawyer. I will be voting DO NOT BANon miraidon. My client is innocent.
I voted do not ban last time and I thought I made a post in the thread but I didn't so now I have to actually talk about my opinion instead of copy pasting. While I think Miraidon is slightly better now with recent discoveries like tera stellar cm, I still don't think it gets pushed over the edge and I think the metagame is still in a very undeveloped state which causes the concerns. A lot of these spawned over SCL, where HO has been the dominant playstyle throughout the first 4 weeks. I was on board with suspecting Miraidon again because the vast majroity of people who play this tier at a high level thought there were issues with it, I just don't agree though.
The main complaint seems to be that people run into too many speed ties that decide games, and while I've seen it in games people play I feel like it's more a result of complacency rather than it being a necessity in the meta to succeed. Throughout ubers open after watching back all my replays I posted I ran into a single speed tie that had any chance of mattering, in a game where I could have still won if I hit a fire blast. I think the HO metagame has just been pushed a lot faster and people aren't exploring any other options enough, which leads to instances where teams are using all of koraidon miraidon zacian-c and arceus on both sides with no pivots, so they're all just throwing out moves and become way more likely to need to speed tie. I think especially in tournaments we're still yet to see the extent of what the metagame can do as a response to it, with things like Ditto being incredibly underused and HO cteams like Hatterene not existing. Chien-Pao and Iron Bundle both see very low usage still despite having good qualities and also being strong into Miraidon, and even small tweaks to teams like PRough/Ground Blast on Zacian or Custap Berry on smth like Kyogre can go a long way in an offense meta. I don't think this style is exactly overpowered and I think speed ties should be a complete last resort in a game if you're already behind, but they happen far too often in positions they don't need to due to either building issues with wrong teras, lack of anti bike options, or just due to playing into those positions.
I'm also still of the belief that bulkier teams aren't unviable, and I think they can still do decently. Builds like this from SCL which have strong pressure and speed from Korai and Zacian, good soft options into bikes like fairy ogre and presumably ww ting are still viable, they just need to have the right tools picked out for the job in an offense based metagame. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with offense being the dominating style despite prefering slower games myself, but to call anything non HO completely unviable would just be incorrect. Offense that isn't full HO with a suicide lead consisting of things like treads lando support fairyceus ditto type mons along with bikes and zacian for pressure are completely valid, and especially with ditto tend to be good into current meta trends. Stall is also possibly better than ever in this gen it's just not an easy playstyle to use, but it's the bulkiest playstyle you can get and even with mirai + korai on almost every team it can still exist due to its strengths if you build it correctly to handle the stronger breaking sets like cb korai and stellar mirai.
I'm well aware this has become the less common opinion atp but I think the meta, while not my favourite ubers, is relatively stable all things considered and Miraidon doesn't push to the level of brokenness that I think other banned mons have done in the past. I'm not gonna try to predict the next meta if it goes and judge based on that since a lot of guesses can just end up being completely wrong, but I don't think Miraidon needs to be banned rn and I think this meta still has a lot of exploration that can be done.
Talking about more exploration is funny af. Everyone said this last suspect. What happened since then? Even more miraidon sets became popularized and more offensive structures which absolutely roll over any team that attempts miraidon switchins. Praying for a new Anti-Miraidon tech or build 2 years into SV Ubers is insane, especially 7 months after the last suspect with nothing coming up. Waiting for something to happen?
Congrats on not running into any speedties in your open run. It doesn't make you special though, SCL and WCOP games are a much better metric as people aren't recycling teams. That's not the main complaint, it just underpins the unfairness of a tier where nearly every team in SCL has a 434 speed, 2 405 speed mons and all of them OHKO eachother. You missed the point, and one bulky team in SCL proves nothing. There's a good reason people are scarcely bringing them. I'm voting ban, of course.
I don't think Miraidon is broken and I will be voting DNB for these reasons.
My first point is that Mirai brings good qualities to the meta and teambuilding. This probably sounds counter-intuitive but the main point I'm trying to make is just imagine building without Mirai. You'd have to use Scarf Korai on every team or switch to Scarf Etern or maybe even Reshiram. Mirai's Electric Terrain also helps vs Dozo and helps a lot in the stall mu in general. Now, no offense to Reshiram, but these guys are not Mirai bro. If you ban Mirai everything is going phisdef and the meta is turning into shit. Worse, it's probably going to result in a Koraidon ban next, at which point it's just gonna become SS with balance changes and Tera. How is that better for the meta I don't understand. A common counterpoint is that Mirai checks aren't as good on their own, but the main reason why that's true is because there are less special attackers in the meta. If Dialga, Lunala, and Reshiram were better, Ting-Lu and Clodsire would be a lot better on their own so I don't think that having to run them "just for Mirai" when they provide valuable utility in hazards and phasing/status and are decent mons in actuality is unreasonable (and again they keep the meta from turning into being completely oriented toward physical attackers and being shit).
Secondly, Miraidon is not overpowered enough to warrant a ban from Ubers. Miraidon is not Mega Ray or pre-nerf Zacian. Miraidon can only 2HKO or OHKO most stuff if it's running Specs which requires skill and good teambuilding to pull off, while Calm Mind sets require you to get multiple turns right in order to threaten Ting-Lu, Gliscor, and defensive Arceus more than the Specs set can. Both of these sets are vulnerable to revenge killing and hazards, even if they are run on Webs if you simply build and play well (I like running a Tera Fly Scarf mon to counteract the effect of Webs or anti Hazard measures like faster Taunt and/or Rapid Spin). These sets aren't unbeatable nor unreasonable (especially when Korai has a million sets including Scale Shot which is way more insane). HDB is another common complaint, but I think that simply having a Will-O-Wisp user or another way to wear it down passively despite HDB is a reasonable requirement for bulkier teams. Miraidon has to switch in eventually and if you can get it on the switch (get 1 read right it's not that hard bro) or act preemptively you can instead put the pressure on the Miraidon user rather than on your defensive core. Here's a practical example of how I mean to do this: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ubers-794619. Agility Mirai is pretty simple, just use an actual Mirai check and/or play in a way that you can preserve Tera for it if you made the decision in the builder to be weaker to it. Smart teambuilding and playing can easily and consistently get around Agility Mirai without having to compromise yourself at all. Scarf Mirai is pretty similar to Scarf Korai, it just acts as a glue, I don't think it's broken since it's pretty simple to exploit and getting 1 read right means you immediately force it out.
Lastly, if you have to resort to speed ties, you are choosing to do so in my opinion. Like, instead of acting stupid, maybe add a Scarf mon on your HO and/or more priority and/or Trick Room or something if you don't want to resort to coinflips, it's seriously not that big of a deal. As for speed ties on bulkier builds between your CB Korai and their HDB Mirai, then don't act like you aren't choosing a certain option despite knowing that these situations are going to happen. You can instead use Scale Shot/Flare Blitz/SD/U-turn Korai instead of your CB one in order to give yourself less of a chance to run into speed ties or use a different breaker or just build and play in a way that you count on losing that tie (which I know isn't possible in every situation, but it's not like it's impossible to avert). In my games I almost never have to go for game deciding speed ties ever, honestly just sounds like a building/playing issue to me.
These are the reasons why I think Miraidon isn't deserving of a ban from Ubers.
i don't normally post in these but this suspect has intrigued me. going into the suspect and even after laddering i was kind of split on miraidon to be honest as i think the boots pivot set is relatively healthy for the metagame as strong as it is similar to how i see scarf koraidon. but as i continued to ladder on other accounts after reqs i slowly but surely realized how stupid miraidon is. specs miraidon is strong but takes precision to pull off but the real culprits are life orb cm and double dance electric seed in my opinion. miraidon with a life orb out puts a ridiculous amount of damage with no set up required, for example I think some of these calcs are quite funny
252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Electric Terrain: 352-415 (88.4 - 104.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Koraidon in Electric Terrain: 187-222 (54.8 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
with the recent discovery of tera stellar the damage just gets even more ridiculous
252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Tera Stellar Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus-Ground: 322-380 (73 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
double dance is also extremely stupid but i dont think that needs an explanation
having access to ridiculous coverage like overheat and solar beam (in a tier where the sun is almost always up) is just so much for teams to handle especially the bulkier teams which is why they have been being used less and less. normally you would say just revenge kill it with scarf koraidon the best scarfer in the tier by far but the problem is webs are at the forefront of the meta so this forces a speed tie which is my biggest problem with ubers at the moment. the notion of “play around it” or “don't force yourself into a speed tie" feels so disingenous to me it is never that simple. anybody who plays the tier consistently wether it be at a high level or ladder knows the amount of speed ties that happen just in the flow of the game is concerning and i doubt anyone really enjoys that
last suspect test i voted do not ban as i wanted to see how counterplay would develop but as we have seen seven months later there is not much of it
i would love to see how a meta without miraidon would develop so i will be voting ban
I still think Miraidon’s impact doesn’t meet the threshold to be banned in a tier that is always going be overcentralized. It’s not capable of snowballing games to victory outside of select MUs.
And unrelated but I think the recent uptick in HO usage is not the final state of this tier and will revert back to more diverse BO structures sometime next year. HO is obviously very good, but I just don’t see it as the optimal strategy in the builder especially when you consider the volatility of mirrors. The prevalence of HO can be attributed to Koraidon more than Miraidon anyway.
I wasn't planning on posting anything here but when I saw the other members of the Bike Defense Team, I felt like I had to rise up.
I think Icemaster's post sums up the logic as to why this whole thing started in the first place and how the idea of how Miraidon is the plague of the metagame is being sold. Unfairness is a funny term in pokemon, we are playing a luck-based game and speed ties will happen eventually unless you ban most of the pokemon with the same speed tier. In that case let's ban Arceus, who has 18 forms, all with a maximum of 372 speed. Let's ban all the mons with a maximum of 306 speed while we're at it too.
What I find baffling is how some opinions make it sound like HO metas are the apocalypse and there is not merit to them. I have watched all of the SCL games and if I were to post armchair arguments, I would tell you that in reality only 2-3 really came down to forced speed ties so, why are we trying to resort to exaggerations? If you don't like an HO metagame, that's your prerrogative but stop acting like it really comes down to that in most cases. Hell, I've lost a deciding team tournament finals tiebreak supposedly because of a bike v bike speed tie, but I sure as shit didn't blame it on the status of the meta, I blame it on myself for letting it come to that.
My main take on all of this is that people have reached a point where they think this meta can't go further and because of this blame is being put on Miraidon, and that the idea of a Miraidon-less meta will allow for more meta development. You are correct, yes, the meta will probably be different without Miraidon. But don't act like the idea of a meta without Miraidon will be the solution to a problem that in reality isn't really there. If you just want the meta to be different then say that, don't say that this tier is unplayable or anything close, there is a reason why Miraidon didn't reach the threshold for a ban earlier this year, if you compare it to the other stuff that did get there then I think you can arrive at the conclusion that this mon isn't really as uncompetitive as those things and we are just pushing change for the sake of it.
What's happening now is a 2nd chance for people who disagree with the results of the last one to get their way, nothing more, nothing less. Tiering purely solely out of biased metagame preference sets a terrible precedent for Ubers and if this is the hill we've chosen then might as well cancel SV Ubers altogether and wait for gen 10, because the concept of the tier has become obsolete.
Before the rant starts, I want to emphasis how annoying it is for every no ban mira person to think just cause a mira ban will not 100% solve SV ubers for the next million years, it means we should just let sv uber be what it is today.
I wasn't planning on posting anything here but when I saw the other members of the Bike Defense Team, I felt like I had to rise up.
I think Icemaster's post sums up the logic as to why this whole thing started in the first place and how the idea of how Miraidon is the plague of the metagame is being sold. Unfairness is a funny term in pokemon, we are playing a luck-based game and speed ties will happen eventually unless you ban most of the pokemon with the same speed tier. In that case let's ban Arceus, who has 18 forms, all with a maximum of 372 speed. Let's ban all the mons with a maximum of 306 speed while we're at it too.
we are playing a luck based game so now that means we shouldnt bother to eliminate some variables that greatly increase the relevance of luck in the game? U understand the whole idea behind smogon tiers are to reduce this luck factor to a meaningful extent so we get some resemblance of a competitive game within pokemon
this is such a ridiculous point, idk if there is anything more that needs to be said on this. and the speed tie issue has always been secondary. the main issue was that mira is that 1 mon that requires a very unique way of handling it, which makes role compression way harder, not allowing for more consistent bulkier teams to appear. thats why its being singled out over Kora who probably also deserves a suspect.
Now add this up with the fact that mira 2kos and ohkos everything in the meta, and has absurd speed that already limits viable alternative plays at any given turn in a game, sometimes the most optimal path is to go for speed ties vs another very strong pokemon in Kora. This is just one of the many byproducts of mira, not the core reasoning for it to be gone
What I find baffling is how some opinions make it sound like HO metas are the apocalypse and there is not merit to them. I have watched all of the SCL games and if I were to post armchair arguments, I would tell you that in reality only 2-3 really came down to forced speed ties so, why are we trying to resort to exaggerations? If you don't like an HO metagame, that's your prerrogative but stop acting like it really comes down to that in most cases. Hell, I've lost a deciding team tournament finals tiebreak supposedly because of a bike v bike speed tie, but I sure as shit didn't blame it on the status of the meta, I blame it on myself for letting it come to that.
i already addressed this in the FC reply. the problem is how much influence trying to avoid speed tie has on the game. it devolves the game down to very very predictable lines (cause mira and kora are too powerful and there arent many alternative plays), taking the advantage of being a better player away frequently.
die by ur own terms with semi forced sub optimal plays to avoid the tie, or go for it. but again this is just a byproduct of the core mira issue of making role compression in the builder impossible to get more consistent teams in the tier thats not just webs or HO.
My main take on all of this is that people have reached a point where they think this meta can't go further and because of this blame is being put on Miraidon, and that the idea of a Miraidon-less meta will allow for more meta development. You are correct, yes, the meta will probably be different without Miraidon. But don't act like the idea of a meta without Miraidon will be the solution to a problem that in reality isn't really there. If you just want the meta to be different then say that, don't say that this tier is unplayable or anything close, there is a reason why Miraidon didn't reach the threshold for a ban earlier this year, if you compare it to the other stuff that did get there then I think you can arrive at the conclusion that this mon isn't really as uncompetitive as those things and we are just pushing change for the sake of it.
We cannot ban zac + kora + mira at the same time. Everyone is well aware that uber might need future bans and that the meta could possibly not be solved fully after mira is gone. Does that mean that there should never ever be ANY ban happening in this tier unless we 100% know that it will solve all of our problem? this is not how tiers are ran
tldr this is just another pretty ridiculous point + the reason mira did not get banned last time was largely because of popular and uninformed people swaying a good amount of people away from voting ban. Mira met the threshold for a ban in any other tier's pov, including uber.
What's happening now is a 2nd chance for people who disagree with the results of the last one to get their way, nothing more, nothing less. Tiering purely solely out of biased metagame preference sets a terrible precedent for Ubers and if this is the hill we've chosen then might as well cancel SV Ubers altogether and wait for gen 10, because the concept of the tier has become obsolete.
Whats happening now is that we finally got to see all the shitty predictions the no ban mira defenders said 7 months ago. None of the alternative ways of walling mira has surfaced, the state of sv uber is arguably worse now than it was back then, Mira got even more broken sets now, and the only defense u guys have is that just a mira ban alone would not solve all of our problems...like no shit? but u need to start somewhere
Also no concept is being destroyed here, u just simply disagree with the reasoning for its ban. the same logic to ban mray in gen 7, and zac in gen 8, and caly already in gen 9 is being used here as well. The only difference is that mira doesnt seem like a 100% fix so you disregard any progress that u guys should make in the tier
At risk of sounding like a broken record player, it’s time for me to make another post about my perspective on Miraidon. As the suspect post says, the metagame has changed since Last Respects was banned, but how much has it really changed? I’ll post some usage stats from tours that happened in the meta immediately following the DLC2 drop to now, but before doing so, I’ll state flat out: I don’t think Miraidon should be banned. From my point of view, Miraidon doesn’t meet the criteria for an Ubers ban. You can stop reading now if I’m not going to change your mind, or keep on reading to pick apart my post as you please.
It’s worth noting that seasonal was impacted by the Last Respects ban for the last two rounds, but otherwise these usage stats are fairly similar, though Miraidon and Necrozma exchanged #2 & #3 from UWC to seasonal. Prior to the Last Respects ban was a suspect test for Miraidon, in which it narrowly avoided being banned. Ladder Tour and Open both happened in the meta following the Last Respects ban, as did UPL.
After looking at the usage stats, it should be fairly apparent that Miraidon and Koraidon have both dominated the tier with both frequently having 70%+ usage. There have been points where one overtook the other, or a different mon claimed the #1 usage spot, but their consistency of both appearing at worst in the top 3 isn’t really comparable to any other mon’s usage stats this gen. Both bikes have run a variety of sets since the gen started, with few new ones really appearing out of nowhere; Koraidon’s most interesting set development is related to the addition of scale shot, changing up the SD flame charge set and the 4 attacks / 3 attacks SD LO sets while Miraidon has been fairly consistent in set usage throughout the generation. Last year in the pre-DLC2 and even pre-DLC1 metas saw all of the sets used today, barring Tera Stellar since it wasn’t introduced yet, including the pivot set, though if I remember correctly the boots taunt set really rose to prominence during last year’s Open. The resurgence of Iron Treads has caused some Miraidons to return to running overheat, which also lets it OHKO Zacians. Miraidon’s sets range in immediate threat greatly, though specs sets have really fallen off. Still, the threat of a +1 LO boosted draco meteor is hardly something any mon in the tier wants to switch into. I’m not going to do an analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of every set since I don’t see the point; we all know what Miraidon does and we all know it’s great at what it does. Pivoting, wall breaking, sweeping, it can do it all. My problem with banning Miraidon is not related to me thinking it’s bad in anyway, but rather its relationship with tiering policy.
Ubers bans are very much a last resort for the tier, with only truly broken or uncompetitive elements being removed. Looking back to this gen, we’ve seen 3 bans so far: Calyrex-Shadow, Last Respects, and Moody. Going in order, Moody is an inherently uncompetitive ability in the tier. Taking a line directly from tiering policy, Moody turns “the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.” The ability is actually a direct part of the tiering policy framework, along with OHKO moves and evasion. Next up is Calyrex-S, unsurprisingly being banned after the introduction of Tera as a mechanic. Tera Fairy/Fighting allowed it to flip the match up on its checks, and proceed to snowball from there, with its speed making revenge killing it a hassle, to say the least. Scarf users could revenge it with varying degrees of consistency, but it was immediately very clear to both the council and community that its presence in the tier was undesirable. Finishing up with Last Respects, the “strain” it placed on team building is what I remember being one of the key arguments that led to its ban, and throwing Tera Normal onto a random mon to prevent a Last Respects sweep was pretty common. In my opinion, Last Respects was less a “broken” move and more of an “unhealthy” one, as it gave the “worse player” a higher chance to beat the “better player” with a last mon Basculegion sweep, which rounds out the three reasons of tiering policy. Calyrex was broken, Moody was uncompetitive, and Last Respects was unhealthy. Despite Miraidon and Calyrex both being the only actual pokemon to get suspected this gen, I think it’s more accurate to fit Miraidon’s suspect reason into it being considered unhealthy as opposed to broken, and compare it more with Last Respects insofar as reasoning goes.
The tiering policy outlines a broken element to be one that is almost mandatory on every team, and the lack of Miraidon on any team would put a player at an enormous disadvantage against a player who is using Miraidon. The other method of classifying something as broken is if it mandates extremely niche pokemon on the team to deal with it. I personally don’t believe Miraidon fits either of these definitions. Starting with the first, there are viable structures without Miraidon. In fact, the usage stats show that Miraidon is more frequently dropped than Koraidon. Perhaps not by much, but the point remains that it is not necessary on every team. So far in SCL, out of 40 teams, 6 have opted to drop Miraidon. Interestingly enough, this first replay features two Miraidon-less teams facing off. The next replay is a Miraidon-less webs, which beats a Miraidon + Ditto team. My balance team without Miraidon played a Glimmora + Miraidon ho, a lead Treads offense without Miraidon beat a Miraidon webs team, and a stall team lost to band Korai offense with Miraidon. 3/4 games which featured a no Miraidon team vs a Miraidon team saw the Miraidon-less team win, and in the first game there were no Miraidons present at all. Maybe it’ll change as SCL goes on, but for right now I don’t think it’s accurate to say Miraidon is broken for this reason.
The second definition for a broken element states that it requires niche pokemon, or pokemon that would otherwise not see use, to check it. Personally, I don’t think any ground types except perhaps Iron Treads fall into this category, but even Treads has use outside of “checking” Miraidon, with rapid spin being a key benefit that very few pokemon have access to. Defog is in a similar position, with maybe two “viable” pokemon having access to it in Corviknight and Giratina, neither of which sees much use. The argument can be made that Treads is stapled on every team to check Miraidon, and it just so happens that it can spin, but that ignores the fact that Treads is not on every team. Out of 40 teams this SCL, it’s been on 8. Out of 50 seasonal teams, it’s been on 9. Out of 236 UPL teams, it was on 31. Iron Treads is in absolutely no way required on a team to check Miraidon, nor is Ting-Lu, Arceus-Ground, spdef Gliscor, etc, and if anything the shift towards offensive teams has proven that. So, can Miraidon be considered broken for requiring niche pokemon to be present on almost every team? My opinion is no. I don’t think Miraidon is so far ahead of everything else in the tier that it warps everything around it and mandates itself along with pokemon that would otherwise not see use on most teams.
But, is Miraidon unhealthy for the tier? This is a question that really means “does Miraidon’s presence in the tier prevent the more skilled player from winning more often than not?” To answer this, we need to look in depth at why Miraidon is being suspected. I might be missing a few reasons, but the two I’ve most prevalently seen are these: balance falling off as a playstyle & games coming down to a coin flip as a result of speed ties. Let's take a look at the second one first. I’m somewhat baffled by this being cited as a reason that Miraidon is broken, at least with the way the meta is right now. Miraidon and Koraidon share the 135 speed tier sure, but we have great speed control in the tier. Scarf Koraidon, Zacian, webs, TR, and a bunch of other viable scarf users. That’s not even mentioning the pre-Home meta, which had 4 different pokemon competing at 405 speed, but that issue was alleviated by priority, scarfers, and good positioning. I had to go back and check, but out of my 6 UPL games and 4 SCL games, only one had a potential speed tie between scarf Koraidon/Miraidon, and the rest of my games played in DLC2 were similar in their lack of deciding speed ties. Going for the coinflip of winning the speed tie is rarely the best play for both players, and proper positioning can avoid that. If dropping a scarf user in the builder so your fastest mon is a 405 or 434 is what’s causing the end game to come down to a speed tie.. well, that doesn’t sound like Miraidon’s the one at fault here. It's of course much easier said than done to prevent a game from coming down to a speed tie, but my point is there are tools present in the tier to avoid them. Maybe I’m wrong, so anyone can feel free to count the number of speed ties that won/lost a game for SCL and if it’s every single one of them aside from my own, I’ll vote ban along with the rest of you. I mean, it’s not like there’s a mechanic to change your dragon type into a fairy type and avoid the OHKO. That’d be really neat, wouldn’t it? Maybe next gen. Anyway, I don’t get how a Miraidon ban fixes this. If anything, it’ll just be Koraidon speed ties that are complained about next, then after Koraidon gets banned Zacian speed ties, then after Zacian gets banned Eternatus/Mewtwo speed ties, and you get my (very much exaggerated) point.
I might be the only one, but citing speed ties as a reason for a ban isn’t enough, so it’s a good thing Miraidon single-handedly invalidates an entire playstyle, right? Balance has fallen off so much, we don’t even see Ho-ohs anymore! I might be exaggerating a little bit, but Ho-oh did drop from #5 usage in UPL to #14 in SCL, with its only game won being, uh, mine. Being serious, I do think this gen is heavily inclined towards offense just as a nature of Tera as a mechanic. Sure, you can turn your Ho-oh into a grass type to wall Miraidon, or turn a support Arceus into a poison type to absorb toxic spikes, but switching your type and receiving the offensive boosts that come with it is inherently going to affect offense much more than a bulkier team. Claiming that balance is unusable because of Miraidon is absolutely false, but it does lead to a couple of different questions. First: is an offensive meta a bad thing? Second: is banning Miraidon really going to fix this? In my view, the answer to both of these questions is no.
Balance isn’t unusable even if it isn’t the best archetype right now. It’ll always be the playstyle I prefer and find the most success with, and it is 100% still good in this meta. That said, I see no issues with a meta that’s characterized by fast-paced games where long-term positioning is key and Tera adds an extra dimension to planning out the game. Evidently this view is not shared by many. Ting-Lu has been used 3 times so far in SCL, which is the same usage as Gliscor. So is the meta just bring webs or Glimmora and click buttons? Well not really. Glimmora is sitting at 8 uses and Ribombee at 7, and there is a single Grimmsnarl usage. Discounting lead Treads ho, that’s around a 40% usage rate of screens/webs/Glimmora. If we take out the week 1 replays, it drops to 30%. For last SCL the combined rate of Glimmora/Grimmsnarl/Ribombee was right around 26%, but that was a different meta, heavily geared towards balance. For this most recent UPL, the combined % was around 26% as well. Balance was still being used during UPL though, so what changed the meta? I can’t really give a definitive answer to this question. You can claim that people realized Ting-Lu + Ho-oh was an awful core that fails vs ho, but it’s won games vs most ho structures. You can claim that the increase in Zacian usage pushed people away from using bulkier structures, but then I’d ask why people have moved away from arguably its best check in scarf Koraidon. People are going to have different building patterns, and in SCL that’s on full display.
There are 10 people building teams that they want to play, compared to the 32 in UPL. A larger sample size is going to tend to the average, whereas a smaller sample size is going to be impacted much more heavily by the tendencies of one individual. My point here is that offense is good, no question about it, but balance isn’t unviable. It’s won in SCL, it’s won in UPL, it’s won in seasonal, Open, etc. Offense being easier to build doesn’t invalidate other playstyles, and you can look at the different teams being used in SCL to see that, even if there’s only a single stall use so far. People are going to bring what they want to bring, and this is on top of the fact that SCL is only 4 weeks in. Right now, the usage stats are heavily skewed by the ho spam week 1, as indicated by 70% of teams being webs, screens, or Glimmora.
So, this is where I’m going to stop. You were probably able to tell, but this isn’t really an argument I'm making about why Miraidon shouldn’t or should be banned, but rather an explanation of why I don’t think Miraidon is worthy of being banned off of these two reasons. If there are stronger reasons for a ban that's great, but both of these reasons, I feel, are being blown out of proportion and do not accurately reflect the nature of the tier right now. If I thought a Miraidon ban would fix all or any of the issues with the tier, I’d be wholeheartedly for it. But maybe that’s just my view, because I don’t think there are any massive issues with the tier. Is the better player really losing to the worse player most of the time? Are a majority of games coming down to coin flips? Or is this just an action being taken because people feel something has to be done? Banning Calyrex last gen would have been a mistake, and I feel the same way about a Miraidon ban this gen. Anyway, people have already made up their minds, but posting something is better than sitting back and watching it get banned with no contest. If, for some reason, you’re still trying to decide which way to vote, I encourage you to read through the last suspect thread. Read the pro-ban arguments, and read the no-ban arguments, but don’t just blindly vote one way or the other. Keep in mind though, that the other elements that have been banned this gen directly (or almost directly) correlated with Ubers tiering policy. Is setting a precedent for banning Miraidon, a mon that isn't truly broken, going to fix the tier in the long run, or just result in a meta change?
In my opinion miraidon is NOT banworthy from SV Ubers. While it is incredibly dangerous and definitely broken by definition, this is ubers we are discussing here. Bans need to only be reserved for the most EXTREME cases. Mega rayquaza, gen 8 zacian, and gen 9 caly-shadow all the share the distinction of making the tier borderline unplayable when they were allowed, a trait not shared by miraidon. In my opinion, every team style in the metagame has quite a few good checks to choose from, all of which are good metagame options in their own right (not just put on teams solely for checking miraidon)
DEFENSIVE CHECKS
Clodsire - while incredibly passive, this mon is incredible role compression doubling as a check to miraidon as well as to another one of the most dangerous wallbreakers in the tier, kyogre. Stealth rock, toxic, and recover are also really nice moves to have. Taunt sets can be annoying, but miraidon taunting clodsire is quite risky as clodsires eq will take well over 50% to miraidon.
Ting-Lu: this pokemon has decreased in usage a lot lately, and truthfully, I have no idea why. It still has the same, quite frankly, overtuned bulk its always had and nothing has really changed its place in the metagame imo. Can eat pretty much any miraidon sets attacks comfortably (barring maybe specs, which can’t 2 ohko will draco the majority of the time. Not only does it force miraidon out with its strong eq, it can easy put up a layer of spikes on the switch, limiting miraidons ability to be a pain later. Whirlwind is also nice for setup variants.
Iron Treads: probably the pokemon with most ideal typing for checking miraidon (barring ground/fairy, which is currently an unused combo). With the right stat spread it can get a spdef boost from quark drive, using miraidon’s own terrain against it. Overheat can be an issue, but it can be scouted with protect in the case of specs, or paired with kyogre’s rain. Spin and rocks also allow it to check of a lot of boxes in teambuilding
Blissey: Self evident. can beat setup variants with a calm mind of its own
Protect: bulky teams can run protect to scout the intentions of a specs miraidon with it, making it incredibly hard for it to make progress, Since you can freely switch to immunities.
Life orb: obviously protect scouting doesn’t work here, arguably making it the most dangerous variant. However, it is flawed for the same reason life orb is as an item. Between hazards and recoil, its going to get worn down incredibly quickly, so smart switches can neturalize it. With good play you can easily prevent it from grabbing more then 1 ko
Theres also any specially bulky pokemon that teras fairy or ground, but theres a lot of those that can and do use those teras so I won’t list them all here.
OFFENSIVE CHECKS:
Arceus Ground: beautifully punishes a lock into electro drift or a draco spattack drop by setting up a dragon dance or calm mind. Both of these sets are incredibly dangerous and pokemon you don’t want grabbing free setup, discouraging miraidon from freely nuking through everything.
Zacian: Outruns miraidon and cleanly ohkos it with play rough, as well as punishing a draco lock by grabbing a free SD. Again, a incredibly dangerous pokemon you don’t want getting a free turn.
Iron Bundle: Faster by one point and has ice stab, outruns even choice scarf variants
Calm Mind Arceus Fairy: punishes draco locks and/or special attack drops by setting up calm minds. Since this set almost entirely invests in HP and physdef, this can put you in a really bad position.
Scarf Koraidon: best set in the tier and miraidon is just another mon for it to revenge kill. Only exception is webs and agility, a gimmicky playstyle and set respectively. The tier has good options for removal like the previous mentioned iron treads, as well as defog giratina, which is good at exerting enough offensive presure to get the defog off. As for agility, the lack of coverage outside of its stabs (and usually dpulse over meteor) allows pokemon like iron treads, ting-lu, and clodsire to deal with it relatively easily.
Priority (Most notably, Ekiller, Kingambit, and chein-pao): miraidon's physical bulk isn't high enough to allow it to survive these strong priority moves after it is chipped by entry hazards and/or attacks it took while setting up.
Any other setup pokemon with tera fairy or ground: self evident.
theres a lot more examples of offensive checks, these are just the first ones that come to mind.
In my opinion, this is enough good checks to deal with miraidon. This is ubers we are talking about, and bans need to be kept to a absolute minimum. Obviously things still get banned from ubers in incredibly extreme cases, but a pokemon with this many solid answers is not one of those instances.
lastly, you losing is a speedtie is YOUR FAULT. If you decide to bank the entire game on a speedtie instead of checking it with the numerous options listed above, thats a risk you decided to take.
with all of this being said, I respect the opinion of those who think it should be banned. I think there is advantages to banning and not banning it. I know a bunch of people are gonna react with the haha emoji and not even read any of this, but if you disagree on anything here, feel free to lmk, as long as it is respectful.
What's happening now is a 2nd chance for people who disagree with the results of the last one to get their way, nothing more, nothing less. Tiering purely solely out of biased metagame preference sets a terrible precedent for Ubers and if this is the hill we've chosen then might as well cancel SV Ubers altogether and wait for gen 10, because the concept of the tier has become obsolete.
This is just not true. You're well aware we decided to hold off on resuspecting Miraidon, even after it had a higher response on the last survey compared to when it was actually suspected, and that several council members were wanting a threshold to be hit to automatically trigger a suspect that Miraidon comfortably cleared, due to the relative recency of the previous Miraidon suspect. Its now been over 6 months and a separate constraining factor on the tier has been banned (Last Respects), and people's opinion of Miraidon has shifted increasingly to the position that it is too much for the tier. It is normal to resuspect things in these conditions.
63% of the playerbase voted to ban it last time, it was always something we were going to have to keep our eye on. That we are resuspecting it now doesnt mean that its sour grapes from those people, and diminishing the view that you disagree with like that is, frankly, insulting.
I'll be writing up a proper post when its not 7:30am, but I just wanted to address this separately because this really annoyed me.
There's big hypocrisy in banning the box legends while hiding behind the veil of player satisfaction since being able to use box legends competitively is the reason most of us are even here. If you want to talk playerbase sustainability, an Ubers tier where you can't even use the big mons will entice new players over the more actively tiered, better supported, and more popular OU, how, exactly? If banning bikes magically transformed this tier from garbage to goldmine you could justify the crippling collateral, but you can't because the future of tiering agency in SV is forever doomed with Tera under lock and key. All these pro-ban mental gymnastics stem from this denial, along with a sprinkling of subconscious insecurity. Introspect why you're here instead of OU if you only care about banning to balance and don't care about the Ubers. I'm feeling kind today so I won't say it out loud.
