Serious The Politics Thread

[juoean]

View attachment 677067

why did they even put walz on the team if they were going to defang him and force him to be just another neoliberal, and never play to his strength ever LOL

like, to appeal to people like me? so you could turn him into another neolib? this shit doesn't make me wanna vote more it makes me fucking depressed seeing a genuinely good politician have his soul sucked out in live time to a terrible campaign

we aren't allowed to have progressive policy, the dickriding of cheney will continue until morale improves omfg what is this shitty ass campaign bruh im so sick of this can we just finish the election already

electoral politics is all about performativity and theatricality, thats kinda what the entire system is organized around. pretty much any electoral campaign prioritizes image/branding over actual substance, campaign promises are almost never followed through on, etc. and even more so for a VP pick

i think they chose walz in order to put up a certain image/facade and hope that they could do propaganda sufficiently to make the facade last thru the election at least for some portion of voters. whether this (manipulation, deceit, gaslighting, whatever one wants to call it) is actually effective on a significant section of voters i have no idea, but this is generally how electoral campaigns are run, the performativity of the vp choice and of the campaign as a whole seem pretty par for the course to me

 

[tada]

The Nazis weren't beat, they came back home and continued their work. We see traces of that in American history and now in how we're enabling the fascist government of 'israel' to wipe out the Palestinians. Sorry but none of this is going to be fixed by a singular election, it's going to take much more than that to root out the corruption that's rotting away not only the government but the planet as well.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

Is anyone else feeling drained of their humanity this year? Maybe this post should be in the mental wellness thread instead but looking at the news again and all the violence going on in the north of Gaza and the south of Lebanon…

…my humanity is shaken and failing. All very well and good coming on the forum and opening up about what I’ve read and seen, but I feel such sadness for all those going through this awful, awful time.

How can we change the world for the better?

 

[donphan fan]

Is anyone else feeling drained of their humanity this year? Maybe this post should be in the mental wellness thread instead but looking at the news again and all the violence going on in the north of Gaza and the south of Lebanon…

…my humanity is shaken and failing. All very well and good coming on the forum and opening up about what I’ve read and seen, but I feel such sadness for all those going through this awful, awful time.

How can we change the world for the better?

I feel the same way some days. President Biden this week announced that he is no longer in favor of a ceasefire in Lebanon. It feels like now that he is no longer running for President he is no longer hiding his desire for war. My life here is much better than it was in Brazil but this year I have asked myself how so many people can just sit while this happens. I feel like so many people do not care about the death of others and that is hard to deal with.

 

[ant4456]

I know "polls don't matter" etc. etc. but if you look at the recent polls in the major swing states, since end of September Harris's lead has continuously shrunk in every major swing state, while Trump's lead has widened. You can even see it just by looking at the shape of the graphs.

It's a concerning trend:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/georgia/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/michigan/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/nevada/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/north-carolina/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/pennsylvania/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/wisconsin/

I still think the election all comes down to Pennsylvania though, whoever wins that probably wins the whole thing, and it seems like it'll be Harris despite it trending downward. But the election is basically wide open now, when it really should have been a lock considering who the opponent is.

this is exactly why I feel confident enough to chirp

I know that if a progressive critiques the centrism of a Democratic candidate the way you defend it is "uhh uhh it wins elections trust me bro!" but like its literally not lmao, in fact the closer we get to the election it's making her victory look less and less likely

electoral politics is all about performativity and theatricality, thats kinda what the entire system is organized around. pretty much any electoral campaign prioritizes image/branding over actual substance, campaign promises are almost never followed through on, etc. and even more so for a VP pick

i think they chose walz in order to put up a certain image/facade and hope that they could do propaganda sufficiently to make the facade last thru the election at least for some portion of voters. whether this (manipulation, deceit, gaslighting, whatever one wants to call it) is actually effective on a significant section of voters i have no idea, but this is generally how electoral campaigns are run, the performativity of the vp choice and of the campaign as a whole seem pretty par for the course to me

the rumor is that they have Hillary Clinton aides/advisors on the campaign, that told them to reel in attacks like the "weird" messaging against Conservatives (remember when everyone was calling them weird and it was working well?), told Walz to be more centrist (that totally worked out in the debate), and in general is being really bad

i dont think walz was a bad pick i think that they have shifted their campaign into the zone where walz doesn't help her campaign when he was a big boon before. he is good at doing what he does and messaging- frankly, he's better at messaging than kamala harris

my problem with the "par for the course" thing is that this campaign was doing way better when people thought the democrats were going to be an actually real party that does shit and the gap has been narrowing the more kamala does shit like say she would change nothing about the biden presidency

obama has been deployed to pennsylvania so hopefully that is won, but god

 

[Bakugames]

As long as there are idiots crying about voting blue no matter who - instead of looking at the reality of their candidates - and dems can use whoever is on the republican ballot as a carrot in a stick to get people voting for them despite their dogshit performance, dems will always pivot to the right and ignore any collaboration with more left wing points.

 

[SittinGamer]

>Kamala is leading, but not enough, apparently as she has a blue ass wall where it matters
"She needs to move right to get moderates!"
>She moves right
>Anti genociders and progressives start dropping her (a very very small minority but when swing states are a thing lol) because shes shifting to the fucking right for genuinely no reason when she had people like the Cheney's coming out for her BEFORE she even moved to the right
"She needs to move MORE right because they're calling her socialist!"

Saw that some super lefty biased poll (citation needed this was twitter that i saw it on w regards to biased for dems) put penn slight kamala win but two of the three rust belt states as Trump +3 which feels like a massive outlier because how the fuck is Pennsylvania showing more left than the other two states, but the trend is concerning given Pennsylvania being the win it all state is ONLY if we win like every single Rust Belt state.

https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3913

Deploy Obama is fucking killing me though, like as a mission directive.

As long as there are idiots crying about voting blue no matter who - instead of looking at the reality of their candidates - and dems can use whoever is on the republican ballot as a carrot in a stick to get people voting for them despite their dogshit performance, dems will always pivot to the right and ignore any collaboration with more left wing points.

My problem w this as an American though is that, if you are in a state that matters, genuinely who else can you vote for if not blue, especially if you're one of the groups being more openly persecuted by the Right as of now? Like the tier lists here show people know I am a part of the Leftist Cabal and fucking HATE Democrats, but when the national election hits, the unfortunate reality is that there are two options unless you want to lose, what, 5 consecutive elections (minimum) building a coalition that could not only beat the Right but also the Democrats which almost certainly then caucus with Republicans if facing a serious leftward threat. This doesn't even consider that any "recognized" third party right now basically solely exists as grifters so you'd need to basically form an entire grassroots that Bernie couldn't even totally do with his own party. I have been having this doomerism too, though, as I see things like ""They're" controlling the hurricanes to win the election", and we are completely incapable of deplatforming these lies (because 43% of this country believes every word Trump says). I know that local and grassroots are the only real way to go, but I look at our planet dying, our people dying, our violent interests, an increasingly rightward overton window politically (or at least that they've stacked the deck so much they dont care that most things have like supermajority support among Americans nationally never come to vote), and wonder what can even be done in the time it needs to be done. Rant over.

Edit: Sorry rant not over, I looked at those polls from 538 linked (i know nate is a grifter too)

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/georgia/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/michigan/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/nevada/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/north-carolina/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/pennsylvania/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/wisconsin/

Like I see shit like this and I lose hope. Can I point to how Kamala would lose ground in any/all of these states? Easily. I can point to like specific things. How the HELL is Trump GAINING ground in all of these places??? Either these votes are going from Kamala to a third party (shouldnt matter) or to Trump (...how? how do you see her move right and go, ah, Trump), so it has to be that in the past two months he is pulling in undecideds. Is it just the RFK endorsement??? He's platformed Haitians eating dogs, constant hurricane misinfo, more fearmongering than ever, is on a cognitive decline which is now becoming as abundantly clear as Biden's was, like. How is Trump gaining. How.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Didn't you already respond to this here? Seems a bit strange to respond to a month-old post almost 30 pages back that you already responded to back when it was posted.

It's because of the rhetoric of this post, which my original response didn't tackle, but sure, it can be strange to you.

 

[tada]

Hey, Zionists are firing on UNFIL again. Weird how that's somehow not a war crime.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1844755148075049232

 

[Bakugames]

My problem w this as an American though is that, if you are in a state that matters, genuinely who else can you vote for if not blue

The answer is that voting is the same as inaction. You're not going to vote yourselves out of a dem party spiraling to the right, support for a genocide and systematic issues. You're not going to vote in a left wing coalition, left wing policies. The benefits you gain exist only to appease you, and dems have realized they don't need to give you that many.

This is because voting is playing by the rules, and playing by the status quo. Your status quo is of american imperialism at any costs, whether the violence is within the empire or outside. Voting has no meaning to a proper leftist, especially one that cares about things outside the empire. You're better off reading marxist theory and joining proper communist movements, which require your own research on your area, what can you do, to a level thats rather stupid to discuss in a public forum

 

[SittinGamer]

The answer is that voting is the same as inaction.

Simply can't agree with this. Voting won't get anyone out of the mess, but it sure as hell can help slow down the mess spiraling. Not to Dempost or anything but if voting is inaction, than Donald Trump IS Kamala Harris.

You're better off reading marxist theory and joining proper communist movements, which require your own research on your area, what can you do, to a level thats rather stupid to discuss in a public forum

If the answer is stupid to discuss on a public forum than I really see little that comes of this thread but daily updates on an increasingly violent genocide and american electoral politics which I don't really see anyone else here becoming happier for.

 

[Bakugames]

Simply can't agree with this. Voting won't get anyone out of the mess, but it sure as hell can help slow down the mess spiraling. Not to Dempost or anything but if voting is inaction, than Donald Trump IS Kamala Harris.

I mean, you got it: they're both about the same. They both serve american imperialism, and theyre both complicit in genocide. I frankly do not care about the small comforts one or the other can bring to americans that makes one the "lesser evil" than the other

If the answer is stupid to discuss on a public forum than I really see little that comes of this thread but daily updates on an increasingly violent genocide and american electoral politics which I don't really see anyone else here becoming happier for.

public politics areas talk about public politics. There is work to be done and much to hope for, but detailing about organizations, funds, names etc somewhere with strangers you dont know is just kinda silly. Especially because half of it would require you give where you live, what area, what you can do etc for it to actually be applicable to you. That, and I don't know america on such a small scale, I'm living miles away from you in an entirely different country.

 

[SittinGamer]

I frankly do not care about the small comforts one or the other can bring to americans that makes one the "lesser evil" than the other

I'm sure the Haitian legal immigrants facing bomb threats, Proud Boy marches, and deportation threats around Ohio feel identically. Or those dying due to hurricanes while misinformation is being peddled as Republicans choose to not return to government to allocate more relief funding solely so they can blame Democrats ahead of an election. Or all of those needing any form of gender conforming care or reproductive care that are in red states and lack the mobility to relocate. None of these people's lives are apparently important enough to emphasize the real difference who makes it into the White House will make.

The US machine is a bloody one, and I don't intend to whitewash it, but claiming both sides are exactly the same is demonstrably wrong and more preventable deaths will occur with Republicans at the helm than Democrats.

 

[Bakugames]

I'm sure the Haitian legal immigrants facing bomb threats, Proud Boy marches, and deportation threats around Ohio feel identically. Or those dying due to hurricanes while misinformation is being peddled as Republicans choose to not return to government to allocate more relief funding solely so they can blame Democrats ahead of an election. Or all of those needing any form of gender conforming care or reproductive care that are in red states and lack the mobility to relocate. None of these people's lives are apparently important enough to emphasize the real difference who makes it into the White House will make.

1. Do you think republicans would have so much freedom in demonizing groups of people if dems had an ounce of a spine. In fact, they enjoy these kinds of targeting because it's good press for them! How often do we have to repeat that dems want to look good, and the easiest way to do so is to be facing against someone who isn't mincing their words and going full alt right? They don't care about haitians, once they get elected they'll gladly neglect them, throwing them to the wolves of agitated alt right folks.

2. Dems are liberals and liberals will always coddle fascist rallies. Proud boy marches will not be stopped or even touched upon. Why should they give a shit?

3. Biden increased violence and continued the ICE escalations at the border, to the point that those things are closer to concentration camps than any "waaah if trump gets elected we'll all get thrown into camps" hypotheticals that dems love crying about, and Kamala is banking on an extreme patriot america "defend our home" slogan, and securing the border. Tell me why these people are someone you trust with the concept of protecting marginalized folks from deportation threads.

4. The hurricanes are happening right now, in bidens precidency. And good old Joe decided that there's no more aid to be given, because they're too busy sending an extra aid package to Israel. They are direct victims of dems lack of care, why are you phrasing this as if the same party who is leaving them to die is the only one that can save them?

 

[tada]

The democratic party functionally does not exist. We instead have 2 fascist parties that are doing their best to kill us all.

 

[SittinGamer]

I don't intend to tackle the other points, as part of point 1 makes me seem pretty convinced you at least understand on some level beyond "basic comforts" Democrats are better than Republicans. You know Republicans kicked up all of this controversy first. You ignored the entire abortion/gender conforming care argument, so again, I will just take it as we agree 98% evil is less than 100% evil. When that two percent includes preventable deaths, however, I'll take some small issue with the framing. A Trump presidency, with only 5 years (I count Mitch doing his hardball with Obama w regard to Supreme Court pick), managed to make leftward movement in this country harder by an order of magnitudes, and the draft of Roe v Wade's overturning specifically outlined the things with which Republicans intend to target, such as gay marriage, any form of reproductive care, as well as privacy laws. The consequences of those four years are hard to overstate, so no. Kamala winning is not Trump winning, even when she goes rightward.

4. The hurricanes are happening right now, in bidens precidency. And good old Joe decided that there's no more aid to be given, because they're too busy sending an extra aid package to Israel. They are direct victims of dems lack of care, why are you phrasing this as if the same party who is leaving them to die is the only one that can save them?

That said, I don't intend to have misinformation stand. While it is, to a degree, he-said-she-saiding, between various prominent political figures, Biden does not have the authority to just give these agencies more money. While it would appear the Biden Administration is lacking in initial proceedings (how much funding he would request), he still called Congress to reconvene before the election so as to allocate more funds to both FEMA and the Republican leader of the House refuses to convene. Obviously, they could still convene and vote on funding. This is again, ultimately a Republican issue where they intend to purposely let people die solely so they can count on the uninformed to go "but Dem is in office why thing not perfect?" Do you honestly think if America didn't send another set of billions to Israel, that Republicans wouldn't play this exact game with disaster funding? You and I both know it isn't a matter of the money existing.

https://northdakotamonitor.com/2024...can-urges-congress-to-speed-up-hurricane-aid/ (final third is most relevant)

https://abc7ny.com/post/fema-has-fa...ne-helene-heres-what-does-doesnt-do/15400270/

 

[Blue glass]

I'm sure the Haitian legal immigrants facing bomb threats, Proud Boy marches, and deportation threats around Ohio feel identically. Or those dying due to hurricanes while misinformation is being peddled as Republicans choose to not return to government to allocate more relief funding solely so they can blame Democrats ahead of an election. Or all of those needing any form of gender conforming care or reproductive care that are in red states and lack the mobility to relocate. None of these people's lives are apparently important enough to emphasize the real difference who makes it into the White House will make.

The US machine is a bloody one, and I don't intend to whitewash it, but claiming both sides are exactly the same is demonstrably wrong and more preventable deaths will occur with Republicans at the helm than Democrats.

Biden has kept Trump's border policy and he made it worse. Kamala is pro fracking now even though man made climate change was a contribution to this season hurricanes strength. Dems haven't abandoned trans people but this was the first year that there was no trans person speaking at the Dem convention.

Dems are good at rethoric, they mostly say the right words, for example the ceasefire in Gaza and Lebanon, but when push comes to shove, they will uphold what's best for the empire, for example the ceasefire in Gaza and Lebanon.

But I agree with you, there is no better alternative to vote on. A leftist president would be stonewalled in congress by republicans and democrats alike or worse and out right assassinated.

 

[tada]

I don't intend to tackle the other points, as part of point 1 makes me seem pretty convinced you at least understand on some level beyond "basic comforts" Democrats are better than Republicans. You know Republicans kicked up all of this controversy first. You ignored the entire abortion/gender conforming care argument, so again, I will just take it as we agree 98% evil is less than 100% evil. When that two percent includes preventable deaths, however, I'll take some small issue with the framing. A Trump presidency, with only 5 years (I count Mitch doing his hardball with Obama w regard to Supreme Court pick), managed to make leftward movement in this country harder by an order of magnitudes, and the draft of Roe v Wade's overturning specifically outlined the things with which Republicans intend to target, such as gay marriage, any form of reproductive care, as well as privacy laws. The consequences of those four years are hard to overstate, so no. Kamala winning is not Trump winning, even when she goes rightward.


That said, I don't intend to have misinformation stand. While it is, to a degree, he-said-she-saiding, between various prominent political figures, Biden does not have the authority to just give these agencies more money. While it would appear the Biden Administration is lacking in initial proceedings (how much funding he would request), he still called Congress to reconvene before the election so as to allocate more funds to both FEMA and the Republican leader of the House refuses to convene. Obviously, they could still convene and vote on funding. This is again, ultimately a Republican issue where they intend to purposely let people die solely so they can count on the uninformed to go "but Dem is in office why thing not perfect?" Do you honestly think if America didn't send another set of billions to Israel, that Republicans wouldn't play this exact game with disaster funding? You and I both know it isn't a matter of the money existing.

https://northdakotamonitor.com/2024...can-urges-congress-to-speed-up-hurricane-aid/ (final third is most relevant)

https://abc7ny.com/post/fema-has-fa...ne-helene-heres-what-does-doesnt-do/15400270/

so it's not trump winning if kamala wins and continues all of trump's bad policies? Explain that logic to me cause i'm having trouble understanding it.

 

[SittinGamer]

But I agree with you, there is no better alternative to vote on. A leftist president would be stonewalled in congress by republicans and democrats alike or worse and out right assassinated.

This is my problem. I said from the beginning the answer is likely local and grassroots, but that I was feeling doomer about the main "left" option. To completely denounce voting as useless (claim was inaction if I want to be precise) is insane. If the vote truly had no impact on anything, Republicans wouldn't be scrambling across every single state they can to throw out voter rolls, delay election certification, and erode public faith in our institutions. I've pointed out in this thread multiple times, once in this argument even, that the Democrats completely threw the border issue away. My thesis remains unchanged, though.

98% evil is less than 100% evil. When that two percent includes preventable deaths, however, I'll take some small issue with the framing.

 

[Bakugames]

You ignored the entire abortion/gender conforming care argument, so again, I will just take it as we agree 98% evil is less than 100% evil.

As a trans person, the gender comforning stuff IS minor concessions that I frankly couldnt give less of a shit about, I have no empathy for people voting for copmalas genocidal imperialist campaign because they want to keep buying T. Grow a spine and get a sense of scale of the issues we're facing now. It's not like dems do a good job at defending trans rights either way.
They don't care about the abortion argument either, because its a carrot in stick to vote for them, so no abortion protection laws will ever be ratified or be completely defended.

Genuinely, where do you think youre heading? Do you people have any arguments on why dems are worth anything other than "republicans are gonna make worse"? I'm sorry to break it to you, but things are already worse now, and they're going to keep spiraling out of control. The fact I have to hear "98% evil is 2% less than 100% evil" as an argument is deeply unserious. Congrats on avoiding 2% evilness, now can you tell what are you going to do about the 98% evil that keeps getting 1% worse every election year? Because so far, everything that has been proposed to "push dems left" failed miserably, and the global south has been the main losers on this entire exchange

 

[Klobik]

Radical, foundational change in this country never happens through electoralism. If you want change to happen, you need to get your ass on the ground and press the state to move theirs or else. That's it. There is no other way. This is the same if Harris wins. This is the same if Trump wins.

While there's merit to this idea that we should be voting for the Democrats to alleviate the immediate impact of a Trump administration, there's also a point where you're simply just opting for tenuous stability to avoid the uncertainty and fear inherent to any resistance movement. Also, consider how violent the American state is towards dissent. Look at how they're reacting to losing the Israel narrative to a bunch of teenagers and college kids. Imagine if this movement was larger, more organized, rallied beneath a collective identity. How do you think the state will react? It doesn't matter who is in charge, it's just you and the American state at that point.

This is why many leftists find electoral dialogue unproductive and distracting. Go ahead and vote for Harris, abstain, vote for your crazy uncle, do whatever you want. It doesn't change anything unless you plan on doing nothing.

 

[Divine Retribution]

There's another factor that maybe isn't as manifest for leftists in other countries but is definitely something for U.S. leftists to consider, and that's that organizing things like unions, education and direct action campaigns, and leftist organizations is pretty much objectively easier under a centrist liberal candidate like Harris than under a populist anti-labor fascist like Trump. Vote for the candidate you'd rather overthrow and all that.

That said Harris's absolute refusal to take even the most timid and basic stand against an ongoing U.S.-funded genocide makes it impossible for me to fault anyone who refuses to vote for her. It's also a fact that dems have no actual interest in protecting the rights of marginalized people. They have had many opportunities to do so over the past several decades and took none of them.

 

[Ren]

(just in case anyone saw my post that I just deleted, I was going to reply to sittingamer since the post was sitting [laugh at my pun] for a while, but it seems like you all have it under control :D)

 

[Bakugames]

To add on: I'd have more respect for a tactic of picking a more center-right candidate to "buy time" for grassroots action, but besides not believing dems are that different from reps, the truth of the matter is that... this doesnt happen.

The majority of folks will return to their status quo, ignoring any kind of politics beyond arguing on the internet and intra-american discourse. This is well known in any kind of politics setting though, so I account for it, that's not where my main issue lies.

My issue is that even grassroots activity in america still plays by the rules and still desires american imperialism and all of the benefits it brings. Unions in america have and will side with the larger american hegemony to gain status. American communists (ignoring compromised groups) still want the spoils of global imperialism - ease of access to consumer goods, the money that it brings to america - they just want it to be distributed to them instead of rich folks (there's a reason they jump quickly on free healthcare and free housing, which should happen, but discussions about losing those goods and money access get sour real quickly), aka they're just demsocs cosplay as communists. And even these groups can't manage to organize in any meaningful way, with the scaremongering of how a revolution would mean everything gets nuked a bajillion times making them retreat into safer and mostly useless movements.

You guys have nothing to "buy time" for, you need to start working on that first

 

[tada]

I just want the bastards who are enabling the genocide to be brought to justice. We can figure out what to with what we have left later.