-
The moderators of this forum are Finchinator, Ruft, ausma, 658Greninja, kd458, FayaWizard, Shaymin Skyand TPP.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
My brother in Arceus, have you considered the fact that Kyurem also DOESN'T like switching into Gliscor?
Not even the defensive set. Kyurem doesn't like switching into its Knock Off or Toxic at all. Hell, even Earthquake would put some strain on it, especially without HDB.
Gliscor will still be Gliscor regardless of whether Kyurem is there. Kyurem creates more problem than it adds to the tier.
I’m not quite sure the exact reason Gen IX OU has been a consistent shitshow…
But it has been and it would be commendable if it wasn’t just so damn sad to see.
Idk what can even be done here anymore so roll on Gen X, I guess.
But it has been and it would be commendable if it wasn’t just so damn sad to see.
Idk what can even be done here anymore so roll on Gen X, I guess.
So, when can we discuss the dog. 
my mindset atm? is that yes this mon is pretty broken but it also keeps a lot of physical attackers in check. Its hard, its like if we get rid of Zama, i think a lot of the tiers problematic physical attackers will get a lot more powerful, and its either we keep this stupid dog or we ban him and end up banning like 2-3 physical attackers after that.
… 
?
I think Zamazenta is a lot more splashable on many team structures than Kyurem is too. Its sets are more one-dimensional, but making the guess whether the mon is bulky idef or CB crunch is honestly pretty terrifying to switch in on lmao
anyways, what do you guys think abt the funny dog
my mindset atm? is that yes this mon is pretty broken but it also keeps a lot of physical attackers in check. Its hard, its like if we get rid of Zama, i think a lot of the tiers problematic physical attackers will get a lot more powerful, and its either we keep this stupid dog or we ban him and end up banning like 2-3 physical attackers after that.
… ?I think Zamazenta is a lot more splashable on many team structures than Kyurem is too. Its sets are more one-dimensional, but making the guess whether the mon is bulky idef or CB crunch is honestly pretty terrifying to switch in on lmao
anyways, what do you guys think abt the funny dog
There are too many checks for IronPress Zama, Clefable, Dondozo, Wisp Pult, Gholdengo, Toxic Gliscor, Lando-T, Moltres, Primarina, Glowking, Zapdos, Clodsire, Toxapex, Sinistcha and a few more UU mons, for this reason 4 moves sets are more common now because they are reliable.So, when can we discuss the dog.
my mindset atm? is that yes this mon is pretty broken but it also keeps a lot of physical attackers in check. Its hard, its like if we get rid of Zama, i think a lot of the tiers problematic physical attackers will get a lot more powerful, and its either we keep this stupid dog or we ban him and end up banning like 2-3 physical attackers after that.
I think Zamazenta is a lot more splashable on many team structures than Kyurem is too. Its sets are more one-dimensional, but making the guess whether the mon is bulky idef or CB crunch is honestly pretty terrifying to switch in on lmao
anyways, what do you guys think abt the funny dog
"but making the guess whether the mon is bulky idef or CB crunch is honestly pretty terrifying to switch in on lmao"
False, Zama has 120 attack stat only, which is actually not scary in such situations, and usually you can guess the set by checking the item, IronPress = always Leftovers/Chesto Berry, so HDB = 4 moves sets
You have no idea what you are talking about. We have a precise idea
okay this was going to be the Unfortunate doesn't begin to describe post that nobody ever saw before but i think i'm going with I think Hydrapple's frozen right to the core
aaaaanywayyyy what a shitshow. i think there was such an embrace of the current meta by a lot of ppl only now to be pushed back into the kyurem meta, we've lost so much time with this shit and the honest work of many ppl has been all for nothing... fuck those 11 people and specially fuck the one who cheated and voted DNB.
i think a lot of ppl are talking about tera blast and i mostly agree to suspect it next, but i would stroooongly push for an Electro Shot ban to free Arch, even a Stored Power ban to free Magearna. i think it's time to understand that if Game Freak follows down this path in Gen10 we're going to have a move that it's like Draco Meteor but hits Fairies super effectively and has Contrary effect so its +2 each hit. If we tier as we used to GF is going to allow more and more ridiculous shit in our game
also whats the point with stall players voting DNB? like if kyurem's bad for most playstyles it doesnt matter that it benefits yours, that's just braindead
aaaaanywayyyy what a shitshow. i think there was such an embrace of the current meta by a lot of ppl only now to be pushed back into the kyurem meta, we've lost so much time with this shit and the honest work of many ppl has been all for nothing... fuck those 11 people and specially fuck the one who cheated and voted DNB.
i think a lot of ppl are talking about tera blast and i mostly agree to suspect it next, but i would stroooongly push for an Electro Shot ban to free Arch, even a Stored Power ban to free Magearna. i think it's time to understand that if Game Freak follows down this path in Gen10 we're going to have a move that it's like Draco Meteor but hits Fairies super effectively and has Contrary effect so its +2 each hit. If we tier as we used to GF is going to allow more and more ridiculous shit in our game
also whats the point with stall players voting DNB? like if kyurem's bad for most playstyles it doesnt matter that it benefits yours, that's just braindead
Do you just wake up everyday and elect to be miserable rather than informed? Take a hike.
We made changes due to them being highly requested and clearly needed based off of what was happening. If you read the suspect thread or see trend lines, you would acknowledge this. Instead, you sit and wait for something to get angry over, only to come here and point fingers.
The split suspect decision and new reqs happened after this vote was concluded as a result of things entirely unrelated. Measures to curb future cheating are already in place. What a pathetic post and take.
It’s dumb enough you basically made a proposal to staff that claimed I could not be trusted running surveys because you don’t trust me without any concrete reasoning, but your tone all generation has been hot garbage. Grow up or stop posting to lurk more.
And to everyone requesting a re-count or a re-vote, stop. It’s done. Kyurem had a test and the legitimate verdict is Do Not Ban. There is no more nuance to the situation.
We can re-suspect it down the line if it’s appropriate, but anything else would be a miscarriage of justice and a misuse of administrative power. This is not up for debate and had I not taken the last 12 hours to have an actual life and sleep, I would have cut this off pages ago.
Finally, stop being doomers. The tier was a little better without Kyurem in my eyes, but it was fine before the suspect and it was never an obvious ban. You will live. The tier will live. Grow up. This has been such a gross week and I do not have patience to play babysitter anymore.
We can re-suspect it down the line if it’s appropriate, but anything else would be a miscarriage of justice and a misuse of administrative power. This is not up for debate and had I not taken the last 12 hours to have an actual life and sleep, I would have cut this off pages ago.
Finally, stop being doomers. The tier was a little better without Kyurem in my eyes, but it was fine before the suspect and it was never an obvious ban. You will live. The tier will live. Grow up. This has been such a gross week and I do not have patience to play babysitter anymore.
My level of integrity involves sacrificing a whole afternoon of IRL work to handle this massive report and communicate with staff to get this timely vote overturned.
Your level of integrity includes being a giant ass to me for no reason repeatedly. You continue to claim the tier is run by corruption without a single data point to turn to. This is some Joycap tier bullshit.
Checked by way too many mons on common team structures to be broken. CB is bad and close to non-existent, and life orb is scarier anyway. IDef and CB also fit on very different structures, making it easy to guess the set. A better example of variance would be which tera idef is running, but even that doesn't make it broken.So, when can we discuss the dog.
my mindset atm? is that yes this mon is pretty broken but it also keeps a lot of physical attackers in check. Its hard, its like if we get rid of Zama, i think a lot of the tiers problematic physical attackers will get a lot more powerful, and its either we keep this stupid dog or we ban him and end up banning like 2-3 physical attackers after that.
I think Zamazenta is a lot more splashable on many team structures than Kyurem is too. Its sets are more one-dimensional, but making the guess whether the mon is bulky idef or CB crunch is honestly pretty terrifying to switch in on lmao
anyways, what do you guys think abt the funny dog
Guys have some patience, if kyurem continues to be a problem it may be tested in like 6-12 months from now but just chill.
Cheating was out of our control after all and we didn’t even fucking know those people decided to fuck with the suspect like that
Like i’m pissed this happened, everyone is but just chill out.
Honestly I would personally like it if we focused on current issues like a certain move tied to a gimmick cough tera blast cough
I'm asking this with zero sarcasm; Why are people being so harsh on Tera Blast now, two years after it's been in the meta?
I want to believe it's a case of "Only with time, we realized this wasn't the healthiest thing in the game", but the way I see it, it's under one of two camps:
The camp who wants Volcarona back from Ubers (Which, btw, Volc is probably adding too much variance with just regular Tera, so I wouldn't get my hopes up), and the camp who wants it banned because "It's breaking pokemon as we speak". To be completely upfront, I suspect that Tera Blast is being so hated now after Kyurem's returned as a last ditch effort for damage control, but that's just my Smogon headcanon at the moment.
I'd be down to finally get rid of Tera Blast, but i'd be very, VERY surprised if this received enough support to go
I want to believe it's a case of "Only with time, we realized this wasn't the healthiest thing in the game", but the way I see it, it's under one of two camps:
The camp who wants Volcarona back from Ubers (Which, btw, Volc is probably adding too much variance with just regular Tera, so I wouldn't get my hopes up), and the camp who wants it banned because "It's breaking pokemon as we speak". To be completely upfront, I suspect that Tera Blast is being so hated now after Kyurem's returned as a last ditch effort for damage control, but that's just my Smogon headcanon at the moment.
I'd be down to finally get rid of Tera Blast, but i'd be very, VERY surprised if this received enough support to go
How are you going to tout mathematical incorrectness while literally failing to make a simple calculation? The vote was 74-51. If that "troll vote" user switched their vote from "Do Not Ban" to "Ban", the vote would be 75-50. 75/125, or 3/5 simplified, is quite literally EXACTLY 60%, the amount needed for a supermajority. Regardless of whether you think the unban was good or not, it's the truth that a singular vote flip would have caused Kyurem to be banned.
I would just like to voice my support for a reexamination of Tera Blast and Tiering Policy (such as the separation of tiering elements (moves, abilities, etc. from Pokemon). I think there is a lot of merit in examining these alternative avenues to continue tiering, seeing how contentious every suspect test has been when we can only approach it from the perspective of "Ban" or "No Ban".
From what I understand, there are two major arguments against this, barring historical policy ("this is how it always is, so we shouldn't change it").
1) Signature moves are not easily separated from the Pokemon they are on - Blood Moon is comparable to Boomburst, which is not really a broken element on anything (minus maybe Kommo-o). This argument sort of intersects with the whole "defensive utility" discussion which keeps popping up during suspect tests, and what the actual value of a Pokemon's body is. My personal opinion on this is that we should look at each move individually rather than trying to apply policy blindly to every instance. Blood Moon is comparable; we should instead look at Ursaluna. There are no real equivalents to Electro Shot or Last Respects, so we can tier them individually. I trust that the council can approach this topic on a case by case basis.
2) The effect on lower tiers. This is a much more persuasive argument to me, but OU has never been shy about making changes and enforcing them on lower tiers. It seems quite strange to me that we would choose to draw a line here. I'm quite uninformed about the lower tier metas, so if there are legitimate uses for tera blast/stored power down there, I wouldn't know.
Neither of these are persuasive to me; banning tera blast, stored power, and some signature moves would allow for the reintroduction of Volc, Magearna, Eleki, and greatly reduce the cheesy nature of Kyurem's DD sets. I hope the council will strongly consider these moves and include them on the next survey.
From what I understand, there are two major arguments against this, barring historical policy ("this is how it always is, so we shouldn't change it").
1) Signature moves are not easily separated from the Pokemon they are on - Blood Moon is comparable to Boomburst, which is not really a broken element on anything (minus maybe Kommo-o). This argument sort of intersects with the whole "defensive utility" discussion which keeps popping up during suspect tests, and what the actual value of a Pokemon's body is. My personal opinion on this is that we should look at each move individually rather than trying to apply policy blindly to every instance. Blood Moon is comparable; we should instead look at Ursaluna. There are no real equivalents to Electro Shot or Last Respects, so we can tier them individually. I trust that the council can approach this topic on a case by case basis.
2) The effect on lower tiers. This is a much more persuasive argument to me, but OU has never been shy about making changes and enforcing them on lower tiers. It seems quite strange to me that we would choose to draw a line here. I'm quite uninformed about the lower tier metas, so if there are legitimate uses for tera blast/stored power down there, I wouldn't know.
Neither of these are persuasive to me; banning tera blast, stored power, and some signature moves would allow for the reintroduction of Volc, Magearna, Eleki, and greatly reduce the cheesy nature of Kyurem's DD sets. I hope the council will strongly consider these moves and include them on the next survey.
dang maybe im just ass. my fault
Players have been harsh on it since Volcarona was quickbanned. The issue was that "general" support for the move being banned was lower then since players either didn't either see Tera Blast as broken or wanted Tera as whole axed. Pretty much any sweeper can run Tera Blast, with a few more commonly running it like Dragonite, Kingambit, and Iron Moth to get past a few of their checks, and it isn't as comparable to general coverage moves because you at least have a general idea of what Dragonite / Kingambit / Kyurem will typically run without TB (i.e. Kyurem will run Ice + Dragon Coverage on DD physical Loaded dice sets, making most steels reliable into it, Kingambit will usually only run Low Kick + Dark STAB + Iron Head, etc.). Volcarona does bring tangible benefits to the metagame as well with its great MU into Darkrai, Kyurem, Zamazenta, etc (although I believe these guys to be--fine-- without Volcarona).
TB is more unhealthy in a MU fishing sense since pretty much anything can run a TB variant to snipe something specific, whether it be Excadrill running TB Electric for Skarm, Tyranitar running DD TB Flying for Great Tusk, etc. A lot of other Tera Types on these Pokemon don't give the Pokemon the same MU fishing capbilities or have more notable drawbacks.
Admittingly some healthy users / low tier Pokemon will be caught in the crossfire if TB is banned like CB Dragapult, so a bit of a wider discussion may still be needed, but discussion on this topic has been a thing for a while.
If Tera Blast returns then Volcarona will probably return, which can help vs specially offensive threats such as Raging Bolt, Darkrai and non DDance Kyurem (no freeze is very nice)
I don't think so.
Without tera blast, Volcarona still does what it is determined to do (aka clicking Quiver Dance). Back in gen 8, we even saw something like Safeguard Roost Quiver Dance, even in a metagame that Heatran isn't bad.
But now, even without tera blast, it still has tera to flip up a lot of matchups that are supposed to check it. On top of that, its movepool is diverse enough to tackle with most defensive checks for it in the tier.
So yeah, tera blast bad, but banning it won't give back your moth.
Tera blast is being pushed now simply because there's not much else to be done in the situation the tier finds itself in.
Kyurem, who is one of if not the biggest problem pokemon in OU is one of the best abusers of tera blast, and with the removal of the move we'd be able to cut off alot of the variance that puts Kyurem over the edge.
Other than that, tera blast being banned is good for OU overall, considering the fact it removes a lot of the uncompetitiveness in the tier, allows uber pokemon that could potentially have a good effect on the meta to return and weakens the options strong pokemon like Kingambit, Dragonite, Raging Bolt and others have to circumvent their checks.
All in all, over the other option we have, which is inaction, banning tera blast seems to be the best decision the community could take and that's why i believe people are being harsh on TB rn.
I think we should ban whatever leads to the least collateral (the amount of stuff banned), whether it's the mechanic or the Pokemon. The argument that we ban mechanics for the properties of the moves themselves doesn't work. For example, if Blissey and Chansey learned a normal type Last Respects, now we have an equivalent to the ghost Last Respects, but Blissey and Chansey wouldn't be broken. So we keep the normal type Last Respects. Then do we keep the ghost type Last Respects and ban the users?
Last edited:
What a disappointment to see Kyurem banned because of cheating, but what also saddens me is that many cheaters are from my country (France)
I personally think Tera Blast isn't that big of a problem.
1. For the already existing mons, how many mons that actually use Tera Blast? Not many. Iron Moth can use tera ground to blast Glowking, but that's the most prominent use of that. Tera Blast Tera Flying Nite, Tera Ghost Tera Blast Pult or Tera Blast Tera Flying Thudurus-T aren't as dominating as Moth, which says a lot. Random Tera Ice to beat Gliscor from Lando-T or Cin aren't that popular, and it doesn't make the game unfair or unplayable. In fact, it helps a lot with dealing with Gliscor.
2. For Kyurem, I will continue to see Kyurem as problematic even without Tera Blast. Sub set doesn't need it. Nevermeltice Dragon Dance set doesn't need it, and even Loaded Dice set doesn't really need it either. It still has a lot of good coverage options to fire off from its impressive 130 base sp atk (Earth Power, Focus Blast) and even some good physical coverages to run (albeit not as good like Rock Slide, Iron Head). Tera Blast doesn't help, but it is more of a Kyurem problem than Tera Blast problem.
3. For the already banned mons, the only return I would see from Tera blast ban is Regieleki, which isn't really that helpful for the tier. Sure, one more spinner is nice, but without tera blast, it's UUBL at best. I have said above about why Volcarona wouldn't return even without Tera Blast in the tier.
So overall, we fluked it with this "voter fraud" suspect test. Banning Tera Blast won't change much. Maybe the most influential change you can make is ban Tera mechanics, but we are far too late for that.
1. For the already existing mons, how many mons that actually use Tera Blast? Not many. Iron Moth can use tera ground to blast Glowking, but that's the most prominent use of that. Tera Blast Tera Flying Nite, Tera Ghost Tera Blast Pult or Tera Blast Tera Flying Thudurus-T aren't as dominating as Moth, which says a lot. Random Tera Ice to beat Gliscor from Lando-T or Cin aren't that popular, and it doesn't make the game unfair or unplayable. In fact, it helps a lot with dealing with Gliscor.
2. For Kyurem, I will continue to see Kyurem as problematic even without Tera Blast. Sub set doesn't need it. Nevermeltice Dragon Dance set doesn't need it, and even Loaded Dice set doesn't really need it either. It still has a lot of good coverage options to fire off from its impressive 130 base sp atk (Earth Power, Focus Blast) and even some good physical coverages to run (albeit not as good like Rock Slide, Iron Head). Tera Blast doesn't help, but it is more of a Kyurem problem than Tera Blast problem.
3. For the already banned mons, the only return I would see from Tera blast ban is Regieleki, which isn't really that helpful for the tier. Sure, one more spinner is nice, but without tera blast, it's UUBL at best. I have said above about why Volcarona wouldn't return even without Tera Blast in the tier.
So overall, we fluked it with this "voter fraud" suspect test. Banning Tera Blast won't change much. Maybe the most influential change you can make is ban Tera mechanics, but we are far too late for that.
Can we please to put back Sample Team with Kyurem ?