We will just use Tera fire for dd sets and rock slide on boots but yeah now that Kyurem is back this might be the path to follow, though I personally still support Gliscor and Waterpon actions but w/e ig
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
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We will just use Tera fire for dd sets and rock slide on boots but yeah now that Kyurem is back this might be the path to follow, though I personally still support Gliscor and Waterpon actions but w/e ig
regarding the ou community and my place in it
this should probably be its own thread but this is where i post 90% of my posts anyway so fuck it, i might as well make it here
i've been under quite a bit of stress lately for a lot of irl reasons and the events of the past few days have not been helping. the kyurem suspect's discussion thread already left a very bad taste in my mouth, as did the decision to split future suspect discussion threads, which i maintain was not a discussion that was started in good faith and will not raise the level of dialogue unless the suspect etiquette guidelines are strictly enforced. ultimately, though, things were starting to look brighter for sv ou and i made my peace with the direction things were going
that has changed.
the discovery of voter fraud and overturning of the kyurem suspect result has seriously shaken my faith in the suspect process and the community. this was the place i went to try and take my mind off of real-world problems like corruption and fraud, and here it turns out that this sort of dishonesty exists even at the highest level of competitive play. sure, in this case it was caught and punished, the actions of our moderation and council should be commended and i take no issue with them, but it went undetected for at least six suspect tests and probably would have gone on for longer if someone involved hadn't blown the whistle on it—how do we know there aren't other instances of this that no participants have come clean about? and the fact that this resulted in a profoundly unhealthy mon dropping back down because exactly one person voted against their own best interest as a joke is infuriating. i've lost what remaining hope i had for the future of the tier because of this
not only that, but the recent massive internal document leaks have caused a lot of discussions and arguments elsewhere in the community and i don't feel very comfortable about some of the arguments that have been had and some of the things being said. i won't go into any detail on the contents or the things i take issue with because they're not really relevant to ou, but suffice it to say that a lot of people are taking things well outside of the realm of "this joke is funny in moderation", and an entire other contingent of people are taking said jokes way too seriously. there were also a couple comments directed my way that i found deeply upsetting, although i'm not sure how much actual hostility was behind them. this isn't exclusive to the ou community, but a lot of the things that make me uncomfortable have been done and said in ou-related discords and it's affected my view of some people in the community
so in conclusion, i'm going to be stepping back from ou and its community until further notice. there are some discords i'm still in and i'm of course still participating in the ongoing tour i signed up for, but aside from that i'd like to put some distance between myself and the community and do some serious re-evaluation of where i fit here. i'll still be active in other areas of the smogon community, but for now that's all from me ou-wise. hopefully the community can heal from this
rest assured, i will be back
this should probably be its own thread but this is where i post 90% of my posts anyway so fuck it, i might as well make it here
i've been under quite a bit of stress lately for a lot of irl reasons and the events of the past few days have not been helping. the kyurem suspect's discussion thread already left a very bad taste in my mouth, as did the decision to split future suspect discussion threads, which i maintain was not a discussion that was started in good faith and will not raise the level of dialogue unless the suspect etiquette guidelines are strictly enforced. ultimately, though, things were starting to look brighter for sv ou and i made my peace with the direction things were going
that has changed.
the discovery of voter fraud and overturning of the kyurem suspect result has seriously shaken my faith in the suspect process and the community. this was the place i went to try and take my mind off of real-world problems like corruption and fraud, and here it turns out that this sort of dishonesty exists even at the highest level of competitive play. sure, in this case it was caught and punished, the actions of our moderation and council should be commended and i take no issue with them, but it went undetected for at least six suspect tests and probably would have gone on for longer if someone involved hadn't blown the whistle on it—how do we know there aren't other instances of this that no participants have come clean about? and the fact that this resulted in a profoundly unhealthy mon dropping back down because exactly one person voted against their own best interest as a joke is infuriating. i've lost what remaining hope i had for the future of the tier because of this
not only that, but the recent massive internal document leaks have caused a lot of discussions and arguments elsewhere in the community and i don't feel very comfortable about some of the arguments that have been had and some of the things being said. i won't go into any detail on the contents or the things i take issue with because they're not really relevant to ou, but suffice it to say that a lot of people are taking things well outside of the realm of "this joke is funny in moderation", and an entire other contingent of people are taking said jokes way too seriously. there were also a couple comments directed my way that i found deeply upsetting, although i'm not sure how much actual hostility was behind them. this isn't exclusive to the ou community, but a lot of the things that make me uncomfortable have been done and said in ou-related discords and it's affected my view of some people in the community
so in conclusion, i'm going to be stepping back from ou and its community until further notice. there are some discords i'm still in and i'm of course still participating in the ongoing tour i signed up for, but aside from that i'd like to put some distance between myself and the community and do some serious re-evaluation of where i fit here. i'll still be active in other areas of the smogon community, but for now that's all from me ou-wise. hopefully the community can heal from this
rest assured, i will be back
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F, cyall. Shame on the voter fraud dumbasses, yall are massive assholes. I've lost a lot of faith in the OU community as well for its failure to take action on kyurem. Everyone could have and should have done better.
I agree with like 90% of your post but this at the bottom is just uncalled for.
This shit is what fucking sucks in this community. This guy has not done anything malicious or insulted anyone - they made a foolish mistake which they themselves owned up to and have since learned from. There's no need for the community from Reddit to YouTube to here to continually bash the guy and be made a scapegoat. Upset at the decision? Blame yourself for not getting reqs, blame yourself for not making a convincing enough argument to sway others. I'd like to see how you all would deal with seeing your username be plastered across the internet and be fun of for what seemed like something insignificant.
I can't believe it has to be me of all people to bring this up. Do better.
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I stand by what I wrote. The only positive this suspect has shown is that a lot of people do care about the tier and mons in general, and that makes this suspect as serious an affair as something can possibly be within the online community for pokemon. That this person put in the effort to post as much as they did and get reqs only to decide to not take it seriously at the end is an insult to the people who very much do care about the future of this tier and were legitimately invested in the outcome. If this person wants to make a joke vote ignoring this, then they can very well deal with the consequences of their actions. It's not your job to shield them or moderate for them.
Do you honestly believe that someone casting a vote in a tiering decision for a children's video game justifies the mental toll that posts like yours can cause? The person admitted their mistake, it didn't harm anyone - they have the right to vote however they damn well like. This is coming from a person who would have wanted Kyurem banned...
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By all means I completely understand your stance here and your passion behind it. But it's equally important to remember that RU is a person behind their screen that likely feels all sorts of heavily negative emotions weighing onto them; and being put on blast for what is ultimately a ridiculous misstep can weigh heavily on someone. They are clearly passionate about the game and the tier, and I think ending with them having feel like a black sheep over what is... An interesting choice isn't the best avenue.
I'm saying this fully due to the fact I've seen much more Extremely Questionable Acting People post here and not get half as much flak as they have thus far. I get the emotionally charged nature of things around this suspect and vote, but I think they'd paid their 15 seconds of shame for a silly decision and its best to let it be swept away. We cannot change the past and have more immediate grounded things to do.
Like killing Gilscor and potentially handling Tera Blast.
Systems like the one in place derive legitimacy from the fact that it's qualified people who supposedly know better than the rest who make the decisions. Therefore, if someone doesn't take their role seriously and votes the opposite of what they think "as a joke", they should be chastised as much as the cheaters, because they also harm the credibility of the suspect system.
(Basically, I agree and I am expanding on what you said)
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I think RU has more than learned their lesson. If anything, I hope more people take it to heart how much even a single vote can matter in situations like this. While I know some view suspects as not enough of a real competency test, if we are to take things in good faith, more people showcasing their skill to the bar which we deem high enough to have a voice is never a bad thing. A larger informed voterbase will be better for a tier we're trying to grow and better direct the pace of. While it was tampering, let's not forget that even with the initial percentages, the suspect was still extremely close. The mon was, and likely is again, contentious. If Kyu is a problem in another 3 months or something, it can and probably would be addressed again. While I personally support looking at Tera Blast before Gliscor, either action I think is justifiable if we wait a week or two to let things resettle ever so slightly.
Man. Some of you guys are insanely dramatic over this pokemon simulator lol.
Sd scor is probably the litmus test for teams atm. If you dont have a few answers seems like a auto loss.
Sd scor is probably the litmus test for teams atm. If you dont have a few answers seems like a auto loss.
Speaking for myself and not the council here:
Evaluating Gliscor first is probably the most intuitive and justifiable next step. Gliscor was considered a problematic presence even with Kyurem in the tier (Kyurem doesn't even really stop it from doing what Gliscor actually does, contrary to popular belief) and as Finch has previously stated, we were en route to suspecting it prior to the voting scandal. It's the most sensible next step imo and while I personally am not sure as to whether or not I subscribe to it being banworthy just yet, I do think it deserves more formal evaluation.
After Gliscor, I believe we should run another survey, including inquiries about Kyurem and gauging opinions about the post-Kyurem metagame that we had for about a couple weeks. I think this makes a lot of sense considering that we got to see what a Kyurem-less metagame actually looks like, and given the nature around its unban, it feels like a unique opportunity to discuss re-evaluation of Kyurem in a more nuanced way that would have objective community support. A quickban is not feasible imo unless we get over the roof overwhelming support in favor of said metagame, but potential results could potentially justify making a hypothetical resuspect occur a lot sooner than it probably would otherwise.
If a specific Pokemon (like Zamazenta or Kingambit for the sake of example) sticks out in this survey, acting on them after Gliscor/this survey makes sense, but truthfully I don't really think anything of note would stand out aside from Kingambit or maybe Darkrai, but even then I'm uncertain.
As for Tera Blast, I support dedicated action on it sometime after this hypothetical survey, assuming nothing of the above fashion occurs. I've mentioned previously that I believe Tera Blast as a suspect target isn't something to take lightly though, due to the primary arguments around why it's worth evaluating and the ramifications around what tiering it actually means. The Pokemon it has potentially broke are up for debate, as I'm sure many of you have come to realize; for example, Volcarona was tipped over in a rather decisive fashion as a result of Tera Blast, but there are many people who feel as though Volcarona would be a problematic presence even without it. Tera Blast imo needs a more dedicated discussion before any suspect comes to pass, including discussion around what a Tera Blast ban would imply from a tiering perspective (whether certain Pokemon should be unbanned alongside Tera Blast's ban, or saved for a dedicated suspect later). In my opinion, including a Regieleki unban with a Tera Blast ban feels highly agreeable, but Volcarona should be a drop-down suspect in this context instead of an auto unban, as well as anything else of note like Espathra. If Tera Blast is then banned, there's further reason to expedite a Kyurem resuspect imo.
tl;dr: Gliscor -> Survey (with Kyurem and Tera Blast questions) -> Action on anything that stands out in the survey that isn't Tera Blast -> Tera Blast -> Volcarona (if Tera Blast is banned) -> Survey (depending on turnout) -> Kyurem (if support remains)
Let me know if you have any questions about this. Bear in mind this is super tentative and my opinion on our tiering pipeline could change depending on any new information or discussions in or out of the council chat.
Evaluating Gliscor first is probably the most intuitive and justifiable next step. Gliscor was considered a problematic presence even with Kyurem in the tier (Kyurem doesn't even really stop it from doing what Gliscor actually does, contrary to popular belief) and as Finch has previously stated, we were en route to suspecting it prior to the voting scandal. It's the most sensible next step imo and while I personally am not sure as to whether or not I subscribe to it being banworthy just yet, I do think it deserves more formal evaluation.
After Gliscor, I believe we should run another survey, including inquiries about Kyurem and gauging opinions about the post-Kyurem metagame that we had for about a couple weeks. I think this makes a lot of sense considering that we got to see what a Kyurem-less metagame actually looks like, and given the nature around its unban, it feels like a unique opportunity to discuss re-evaluation of Kyurem in a more nuanced way that would have objective community support. A quickban is not feasible imo unless we get over the roof overwhelming support in favor of said metagame, but potential results could potentially justify making a hypothetical resuspect occur a lot sooner than it probably would otherwise.
If a specific Pokemon (like Zamazenta or Kingambit for the sake of example) sticks out in this survey, acting on them after Gliscor/this survey makes sense, but truthfully I don't really think anything of note would stand out aside from Kingambit or maybe Darkrai, but even then I'm uncertain.
As for Tera Blast, I support dedicated action on it sometime after this hypothetical survey, assuming nothing of the above fashion occurs. I've mentioned previously that I believe Tera Blast as a suspect target isn't something to take lightly though, due to the primary arguments around why it's worth evaluating and the ramifications around what tiering it actually means. The Pokemon it has potentially broke are up for debate, as I'm sure many of you have come to realize; for example, Volcarona was tipped over in a rather decisive fashion as a result of Tera Blast, but there are many people who feel as though Volcarona would be a problematic presence even without it. Tera Blast imo needs a more dedicated discussion before any suspect comes to pass, including discussion around what a Tera Blast ban would imply from a tiering perspective (whether certain Pokemon should be unbanned alongside Tera Blast's ban, or saved for a dedicated suspect later). In my opinion, including a Regieleki unban with a Tera Blast ban feels highly agreeable, but Volcarona should be a drop-down suspect in this context instead of an auto unban, as well as anything else of note like Espathra. If Tera Blast is then banned, there's further reason to expedite a Kyurem resuspect imo.
tl;dr: Gliscor -> Survey (with Kyurem and Tera Blast questions) -> Action on anything that stands out in the survey that isn't Tera Blast -> Tera Blast -> Volcarona (if Tera Blast is banned) -> Survey (depending on turnout) -> Kyurem (if support remains)
Let me know if you have any questions about this. Bear in mind this is super tentative and my opinion on our tiering pipeline could change depending on any new information or discussions in or out of the council chat.
This has been asked before but I haven't seen it addressed.
What steps are being made to prevent scandals like this from happening again? I'm obviously not looking for an exact explanation of your detection processes but some sort of communication on that I feel is necessary before any suspect happens.
This is something we are still discussing and is something we intend to address before any more suspects, don't worry! At the moment we're still trying to chat w/ PS staff about how we can verify identity in a way that doesn't compromise anybody's personal information, so it's a bit of a tricky situation with a lot of red tape involved. I have faith we will have something figured out in the near future though; by which point you will be definitely hearing about the precautions we will start to take to secure our process.
Since the survey will be after the Gliscor Suspect Test, then we'll be able to see how the qualified thread and non-qualified suspect threads work. I think then it'll be a good idea to see on a scale of 1-5 the enjoyability of having either on the survey, if that's possible. I know stuff like that takes extra effort/time, so if thats not feasible thats fine, just throwing out ideas.
I personally think a survey after the Gliscor test is perfect timing. There's been discussion in the forums (and maybe Discord servers as well, but i'm not a part of those as of now), so a Survey right now feels like it should happen to gauge the community's stance on what issues the tier has. (And before anyone thinks it, i'm saying this for things that aren't related to Kyurem. Action will come. Let's not kill each other over this.)
Just one question though; Assuming Tera Blast is on the chopping block, will there be any changes to how that suspect will be structured, or will it be only the current universal changes the council has in mind?
To tell you the truth I am not sure at this time. Tera Blast and how the process will actually look like has not really been fully dissected by the council, but I anticipate that is something that would be addressed in a hypothetical policy thread (which as I said, I think should be happening regardless).
My concern with this is the process not seeming efficient? Lets say gliscor goes and the pro-ban party does decide yes, let's try kyurem again. And then maybe then nothing else comes up...kingambit.. then Ghouldengo.. whatever. We then take a crack at Tera Blast if the ban momentum slows. We then bring volcarona back.
Wouldn't we then question the wisdom of a banned kyurem, ghouldengo and kingambit? And slowly reintroduce them, or have them banned in an enviroment they would be acceptable in.
Wouldn't we have just wasted months of time to arrive at the point we would arrive at if we instead moved on Tera Blast now?
I'm repeating myself. Please explain it to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding..
Also unless I'm mistaken didn't Tera Blast have the most support after Kyurem from the qualified survey? After 10 pages of pro Tera blast ban discussion I do feel like we are being guardrailed into gliscor suspect? I have hardly seen any gliscor discussion until Finch. :S It's genuinly confusing. I know the site owner isn reportedly not a fan of discarding our gen mechanic but will he let us ban TB as a middle ground?
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I believe we shouldn't be pushing for suspect tests rn. The meta is in a good place as is with every playstyle being viable and nothing super overwhelming and spamming suspects is not good for anyone right now imo. Spamming suspects without letting the meta settle will lead to mistaken ban and/or do not ban results and is good for nobody, we can have a little bit of patience and restraint as a community and wait a month or two to take decisive action or inaction. For Kyurem, I especially oppose a new suspect because DNB voters have less morale to keep a mon they think is just fine than Ban voters have to keep getting reqs for something they think makes the meta bad, and could lead to a ban by attrition (DNB voters giving up the fight) rather than a true supermajority, for this reason I believe if Kyurem does remain a problem in the majority of the playerbase's point of view once the meta is settled then Tera Blast should probably be suspected instead, frees Volcarona which invalidates mixed sets and heavily nerfs DD which makes it way safer to answer.
This logic doesn't hold up, you could argue it the exact same other way of "pro ban players aren't getting any bans so they are giving up on trying to get reqs". But besides that the reality is there is no "ban everything" and "don't ban everything camp. Plenty of players have an issue with Gliscor and not Kyurem, or Kyurem and not Gliscor, or both or neither. Doing multiple suspect test without several month long gaps isn't ruining morale because players have their own complex view of the tier and its not these 2 stagnant sides. In fact by having the community have as much chances as possible to give input via suspect test, it gives all people of diff tiering interest an opportunity to get something done.
The situation regarding voter fraud has slowed down our process anyway. Although I think Gliscor would be the most feasible next step I highly doubt we are going to be suspecting it at least for a little bit while we figure out how to secure the process and also to let people get their heads back in the game. People are still understandably shaken up, and we still have a bit of work left to do to get things in order imo.
For the record I also don't think this would be spamming suspects; none of what I propose would be relentlessly back to back. To be clear, it's just a tentative pipeline based on trends I've seen and my own personal opinions! That being said I do think there is still work to be done with this tier, and there are a lot of people who feel the same. I think it's important to remain open minded about suspects if they could potentially help improve the tier and are done deliberately.
Hi, don't worry, I totally understand your confusion! Let me try to make my thought process a bit clearer:
The reason I'm suggesting we wait a bit on Tera Blast specifically is because most people just don't really view it as a pressing problem. There has been a lot more support for action lately, but the thing about Tera Blast is that its dynamic with the tier isn't really very obvious or constraining in a conventional sense. The argument against it is almost completely centered around its unhealthy interactions with Tera and defensive counterplay to offensive Pokemon, and it's because of that that there are a lot of people who don't view it as pressing enough to act on as a top priority. While we could theoretically wind up with a metagame that resembles one we could possibly have sooner, at the end of the day, our process is designed to be as inclusive as possible and to be a learning process; it's important that our priorities reflect that. While, yes, it could theoretically take longer, it lowers the polarity in opinions that would come from us rushing to act on divisive things, and we can reduce that divisiveness with inclusive discussions and planning, thus letting action occur more organically and ensuring everyone is on the same page.
Maybe terrible comparison, but it's kind of politics, in the sense that we act on precedent and the will of the wider community, and heed complicated talking points with caution and planning. Hopefully that makes sense!
anyone else notice low/mid ladders obsession with Blaziken? I've been seeing it all day, and all I have to say is, why? Why are you using the chicken? We live in a world of Moltres being OU just stop. I get that it's your favorite starter from childhood, but the chicken just ain't that good. Iron Valiant and Zamazenta are right there if you want a speedy Fighting type. For your own good, stop.
Simple questions:
Is there a possibility of a third retest of Kyurem at some point in the future?
If so, what would a timeframe look like for a potential resuspect?
What would be a valid justification behind the third Kyurem retest, if it were to ever happen?
Is there a possibility of a third retest of Kyurem at some point in the future?
If so, what would a timeframe look like for a potential resuspect?
What would be a valid justification behind the third Kyurem retest, if it were to ever happen?
Brotha what the hell, this is literally one mon, in one tier, in a pokemin simulator, about a small portion of the games.
There's no reason to be mean or put people down. Mad? Get recs and make better arguments then.
Always happens when a youtuber uploads a video