Serious The Politics Thread

[S.A.C. Martin]

now I can get those “prohibited” sources I’ve been wondering about

Academics would point out to you that unless you have a good understanding of all of the sources, including thoe you might not be comfortable with, you can’t claim to understand the topic fully.

I’m uncomfortable with reading about Zionism and Zionist ideology but I have looked at sources of historical literature on this topic because I want to better understand how an entire country can seemingly be fine with bombing countries into submission in the way they currently are.

Likewise, to understand Hamas’ intentions/ideology, reading up on said sources including direct from the source is necessary.

Provided we are all doing this in an academic way and citing properly, the sources themselves are not the issue, rather it’s the context they are placed in and why they are relevant

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Academics would point out to you that unless you have a good understanding of all of the sources, including thoe you might not be comfortable with, you can’t claim to understand the topic fully.

I’m uncomfortable with reading about Zionism and Zionist ideology but I have looked at sources of historical literature on this topic because I want to better understand how an entire country can seemingly be fine with bombing countries into submission in the way they currently are.

Likewise, to understand Hamas’ intentions/ideology, reading up on said sources including direct from the source is necessary.

Provided we are all doing this in an academic way and citing properly, the sources themselves are not the issue, rather it’s the context they are placed in and why they are relevant

right; except if someone is making arguments you’d expect them to post sourcing for the argument?

 

[myowngamertag]

Lol why the fuck would Israel ever think releasing that footage of Sinwar would be a good idea. Dude went out like an absolute badass

 

[donphan fan]

Voted early today here in San Jose!

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

right; except if someone is making arguments you’d expect them to post sourcing for the argument?

Yes, and as I note above, citations and sources have been made by the usual people in this thread.

Whataboutery doesn’t really wash with me. You can choose to engage with the thread properly or not, that’s your choice.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Yes, and as I note above, citations and sources have been made by the usual people in this thread.

Whataboutery doesn’t really wash with me. You can choose to engage with the thread properly or not, that’s your choice.

I’m not calling any of you out, since you put in the effort to actually provide sources for your argumentation. In the exchanges I’ve had with lilyhollow, they claimed to have evidence that they “could not share” for fear of interference from moderators. If you think me asking for these sources is “whataboutery” and that I’m not engaging with the thread correctly, then feel free to report my posts.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

I’m not calling any of you out, since you put in the effort to actually provide sources for your argumentation. In the exchanges I’ve had with lilyhollow, they claimed to have evidence that they “could not share” for fear of interference from moderators. If you think me asking for these sources is “whataboutery” and that I’m not engaging with the thread correctly, then feel free to report my posts.

I have to say that I think you’re being deliberately disingenuous and provocative by focusing in on Lilyhollow, straight after being restored to the thread. But I’ll bite, because frankly I am sick to death of the baiting.

That someone thinks it is likely they would get moderated and doesn’t give the source in a given example, highlighting that they believe they would be moderated alerts us to certain key elements of the debate, i.e. that it’s not always a level playing field when discussing certain topics.

Stating that there are sources available and making it clear why they haven’t been cited is protecting one’s self online.

And you obviously know the difference between coming into a thread and spurting out a load of nonsense without citations or references, and someone who has produced something thoughtful, explained their reasoning, and then explained that they haven’t directly cited because they may fall afoul of rules, or individual moderation.

For the record, I have seen those posts as well and whilst I am not always in agreement (sometimes in complete disagreement with Lilyhollow), it strikes me as cynical and dare I say devious to “call people out for sources” in the specific example given which could have wide ranging consequences.

In short, you know what you’re saying and doing, and I think it’s pretty despicable.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

I have to say that I think you’re being deliberately disingenuous and provocative by focusing in on Lilyhollow, straight after being restored to the thread. But I’ll bite, because frankly I am sick to death of the baiting.

That someone thinks it is likely they would get moderated and doesn’t give the source in a given example, highlighting that they believe they would be moderated alerts us to certain key elements of the debate, i.e. that it’s not always a level playing field when discussing certain topics.

Stating that there are sources available and making it clear why they haven’t been cited is protecting one’s self online.

And you obviously know the difference between coming into a thread and spurting out a load of nonsense without citations or references, and someone who has produced something thoughtful, explained their reasoning, and then explained that they haven’t directly cited because they may fall afoul of rules, or individual moderation.

For the record, I have seen those posts as well and whilst I am not always in agreement (sometimes in complete disagreement with Lilyhollow), it strikes me as cynical and dare I say devious to “call people out for sources” in the specific example given which could have wide ranging consequences.

In short, you know what you’re saying and doing, and I think it’s pretty despicable.

Quick response as I haven’t been at home for the entire day.

You seem to want to ascribe motivations to me that I don’t have.

I am specifically saying this because lilyhollow said the evidence would be “prohibited” on this forum.

If the evidence is graphic it can be put under a trigger warning.

I wouldn’t mind being DM’ed the evidence if it wasn’t suitable for this forum.

To take this as me being “despicable” is a leap. I don’t know why you felt the need to call my actions that. Again, if you feel that I’m doing this to harass lilyhollow, the report option is always there.

 

[tada]

Isn't it neat that Western governments are at the behest of a foreign power, do nothing to make the lives of the people of their own countries better and just leave them to die? Maybe the people of those countries should do something about that.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

Quick response as I haven’t been at home for the entire day.

You seem to want to ascribe motivations to me that I don’t have.

I am specifically saying this because lilyhollow said the evidence would be “prohibited” on this forum.

If the evidence is graphic it can be put under a trigger warning.

I wouldn’t mind being DM’ed the evidence if it wasn’t suitable for this forum.

To take this as me being “despicable” is a leap. I don’t know why you felt the need to call my actions that. Again, if you feel that I’m doing this to harass lilyhollow, the report option is always there.

Uh huh. I see backtracking here. The post you made earlier was pretty clear in its tone and message. Now you’re backtracking because you’re being called out for it.

now I can get those “prohibited” sources I’ve been wondering about

Do us a favour then: next time, if you are serious about getting sources (which frankly I don’t believe even now) don’t just turn up the moment someone is unbanned to make a mocking post, which this obviously is.

Maybe if you wanted to be taken more seriously you would have responded more seriously in the first place. But hey ho.

 

[gvmgvm40]

Lol why the fuck would Israel ever think releasing that footage of Sinwar would be a good idea. Dude went out like an absolute badass

now think about what that implies though. the leader of hamas was fighting with his soldiers, and nobody even knew that until he was killed. he wasn't using "human shields", he wasn't cowering in tunnels surrounded by hostages, he wasn't hiding under apartment buildings, he wasn't dressed as a woman and hiding among civillians, he wasn't in schools or hospital yards in "command centers", whatever that means. he was right there! none of what's been blaring in western media or claimed in "intelligence reports" turned out to be true. the fact that he was killed fighting should've lead to questioning what's coming from israeli reports. all that bloodshed and misery inflicted on defenseless civillians is based on lies, it's mass killing without any military purpose going on for months and months.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

now think about what that implies though. the leader of hamas was fighting with his soldiers, and nobody even knew that until he was killed. he wasn't using "human shields", he wasn't cowering in tunnels surrounded by hostages, he wasn't hiding under apartment buildings, he wasn't dressed as a woman and hiding among civillians, he wasn't in schools or hospital yards in "command centers", whatever that means. he was right there! none of what's been blaring in western media or claimed in "intelligence reports" turned out to be true. the fact that he was killed fighting should've lead to questioning what's coming from israeli reports. all that bloodshed and misery inflicted on defenseless civillians is based on lies, it's mass killing without any military purpose going on for months and months.

There is a motive. Genocide and annexation.

Edit:

Of course Macron backtracked on Israel.

Quelle surprise.

If there is one thing that is consistent with the western world, it’s the inconsistency in everything when it comes to Israel, including international law and how they perceive it should be enforced.

 

[Fardin]

This is a clip of Sinwar's last moments (it is not graphic). The image we see here of Yahya Sinwar, wearing a keffiyeh, caked in dust, stoically facing death in an armchair, is like nothing I have ever seen in my life. His final act of defiance--using his one intact arm to throw a stick at a high-tech drone--will be remembered for whatever remains of human history.

Zionist propaganda has depicted Sinwar as a rodent who 'hides' safely away in tunnels, abandoning his people to be killed.

There is in fact nothing cowardly whatsoever about using underground tunnels as a way to combat the overwhelming force of a larger, stronger, better-equipped, racist, genocidal enemy. The Vietnamese and North Koreans both used underground tunnels during their wars for national liberation against the imperialist U.S., for example.

But the fact is, Sinwar wasn't killed in a tunnel. This completely destroys Israel's asinine propaganda narrative; it's frankly surprising that they even released the video clip. The west's absurd depiction of Yahya Sinwar as a Bin Laden-esque 'terrorist' figure is also discredited in this moment; here we see a 61-year-old man fighting for his people, surrounded by millions of dollars of drones, tanks, and explosives, facing them all down with one hand and a fucking stick. Sinwar is now the ultimate image of resistance against the might of imperialism. He will inspire countless, countless, countless people to fight to the bitter end.

disliking israel to the point where u just spew some pretty nasty propaganda for a terrorist is kind of insane ngl

dude was found dead after a year of hiding with a wallet of an expired unwra passport with 10k us dollar in it (most likely for a free entry to egypt cause the border crossings there are pretty corrupt, but its all speculation at the end)

this dude killed prominent Palestinian figures within hamas who disagreed with him, was one of the major person responsible for shutting down virtually any protest against the hamas leadership in the region, consistently opposed ANY peace agreements israel has offered the past 15 years (but then he publishes some propaganda piece that people online just eat up thinking he just wanted peace or w/e bs that can capture gullible people), being the basically the chief strategist to multiple suicide bombings, kidnappings of civilians and popularized the use of rockets to civilian areas, and deliberately recruiting children at a very early age so he can groom them to be future soldiers doing his bidding and etc etc etc

for the people who arent too far gone in the propaganda battle between hamas and israel, u can support Palestine while denouncing Hamas and Sinwar, who was just a vile and murderous terrorist who was consistently against any peace deals, and solely believed in depraved warfare as the sole method to salvation

the enemy of an enemy is not always a friend, especially when they are a terrorist

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

disliking israel to the point where u just spew some pretty nasty propaganda for a terrorist is kind of insane ngl

dude was found dead after a year of hiding with a wallet of an expired unwra passport with 10k us dollar in it (most likely for a free entry to egypt cause the border crossings there are pretty corrupt, but its all speculation at the end)

this dude killed prominent Palestinian figures within hamas who disagreed with him, was one of the major person responsible for shutting down virtually any protest against the hamas leadership in the region, consistently opposed ANY peace agreements israel has offered the past 15 years (but then he publishes some propaganda piece that people online just eat up thinking he just wanted peace or w/e bs that can capture gullible people), being the basically the chief strategist to multiple suicide bombings, kidnappings of civilians and popularized the use of rockets to civilian areas, and deliberately recruiting children at a very early age so he can groom them to be future soldiers doing his bidding and etc etc etc

for the people who arent too far gone in the propaganda battle between hamas and israel, u can support Palestine while denouncing Hamas and Sinwar, who was just a vile and murderous terrorist who was consistently against any peace deals, and solely believed in depraved warfare as the sole method to salvation

the enemy of an enemy is not always a friend, especially when they are a terrorist

Israel has killed 42,000 Palestinians and over 2500 Lebanese, displaced over 4 million people, dropped over 1 million tonnes of bombs on a tiny area of land next door and bombed across an entire sovereign nation, destroyed thousands of homes, shops, schools, universities, hospitals, pillaged from civilians, murdered in cold blood, prevented food, medical aid and water from getting to people, and generally wreaked havoc on the middle east for the last year after decades of materially evidenced apartheid and annexation in territories it occupies.

Nothing more is making me think the only difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is who’s defining it, more than when people stumble into this thread without realising that the perceived hatred or dislike of Israel might in fact come from their actions and not those of others who act in response to those actions.

I have always condemned Hamas’ actions on October 7th 2023 but my reading of the human rights abuses Israel has been involved with since 1948 lead me to one inescapable conclusion: that it is remarkable that it took until 2023 for the Palestinian people to fight back in any way against an oppressive force that has incredible immunity from the consequences of its devastating actions.

In short, if you’re arguing that Palestinians need to be perfect fighters in resistance to their oppression, you’ve missed the goddamn point: Zionists/Israel/Israelis and their allies should not have been occupying and applying apartheid and collective punishment to the Palestinians in the first place.

 

[Fardin]

Israel has killed 42,000 Palestinians and over 2500 Lebanese, displaced over 4 million people, dropped over 1 million tonnes of bombs on a tiny area of land next door and bombed across an entire sovereign nation, destroyed thousands of homes, shops, schools, universities, hospitals, pillaged from civilians, murdered in cold blood, prevented food, medical aid and water from getting to people, and generally wreaked havoc on the middle east for the last year after decades of materially evidenced apartheid and annexation in territories it occupies.

Nothing more is making me think the only difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is who’s defining it, more than when people stumble into this thread without realising that the perceived hatred or dislike of Israel might in fact come from their actions and not those of others who act in response to those actions.

I have always condemned Hamas’ actions on October 7th 2023 but my reading of the human rights abuses Israel has been involved with since 1948 lead me to one inescapable conclusion: that it is remarkable that it took until 2023 for the Palestinian people to fight back in any way against an oppressive force that has incredible immunity from the consequences of its devastating actions.

In short, if you’re arguing that Palestinians need to be perfect fighters in resistance to their oppression, you’ve missed the goddamn point: Zionists/Israel/Israelis and their allies should not have been occupying and applying apartheid and collective punishment to the Palestinians in the first place.

nobody is excusing the actions of israel or is asking for a perfect "freedom fighter", but maybe just not some lunatic who deems his own people as a "necessary sacrifice" during war, among with all the other vile shit i laid out in my first post (which he did all of them prior to oct 7.)

sinwar was probably one of the biggest net negative effect to the people in gaza, and did nothing but make an already complicated and intense conflict between Israel worse. (by being the main guy who CONSISTENTLY broke peace treaties, and going after civilians as much as he can and etc)

trying to white wash a near dictator level terrorist who killed his own people for power, and silenced any criticism of his government, NEVER seeking any form of peace deal, and firmly believing in depraved war tactics as the only way to "free" his people is not best look, no matter how much u hate Israel

imma say it again but the enemy of an enemy is not always a friend, especially when they are a terrorist

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

nobody is excusing the actions of israel or is asking for a perfect "freedom fighter", but maybe just not some lunatic who deems his own people as a "necessary sacrifice" during war, among with all the other vile shit i laid out in my first post (which he did all of them prior to oct 7.)

sinwar was probably one of the biggest net negative effect to the people in gaza, and did nothing but make an already complicated and intense conflict between Israel worse. (by being the main guy who CONSISTENTLY broke peace treaties, and going after civilians as much as he can and etc)

trying to white wash a near dictator level terrorist who killed his own people for power, and silenced any criticism of his government, NEVER seeking any form of peace deal, and firmly believing in depraved war tactics as the only way to "free" his people is not best look, no matter how much u hate Israel

imma say it again but the enemy of an enemy is not always a friend, especially when they are a terrorist

Sorry but you’re white washing a genocide.

Not really a good faith argument. I’m out.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Interesting that the IDF can bomb as many civilians as they want, target journalists, shoot toddlers in the head, SA prisoners, commit blatant war crimes, and enact collective punishment on the people of Gaza and libs don't call them terrorists. Tell me, what's the difference between the actions of HAMAS and the actions of the IDF? Besides us having way more evidence of the IDF's crimes than many of the crimes attributed to HAMAS, of course.

 

[Fardin]

Sorry but you’re white washing a genocide.

Not really a good faith argument. I’m out.

this is about as much engagement i expected from u. u should probably learn what good and bad faith actually means seeing how much u love to use it. it doesnt apply solely to arguments that ur not able to respond to

i just dont like people using an ongoing genocide to excuse the behavior of a vile terrorist who had next to no regards for his own people's life, and now make him look like some kind of freedom fighter who deserves praise. this is some actual insane shit, that i thankfully know does not really exist in the real world aside from some parts of the internet

for all the people who are not totally radicalized on this issue, its okay to condemn both israel, and a vile terrorist like Sinwar

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

I am struggling with the “laugh reactions” applied in this thread. Like, are you really that lacking in basic research skills that you disagree with the notion that Israel has committed war crimes?

But maybe I shouldn’t be surprised.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/17/shaban-al-dalou-burned-alive-israel-gaza

This is Sha’ban Al Dalou. He was a 19 year old student who’d already been injured. He was burned to death, still on an IV drip, in a tent, in what was meant to be a safe area.

There’s been numerous footage and videos of this, and it’s been acknowledged to have happened by even the US government.

Then this happens:

This is David Mencer. Formerly a British advisor to a British MP and a director of Labour Friends of Israel, he claimed this was fabricated yesterday, despite the overwhelming photographic and video evidence.

When you are batting a narrative of disinformation, outright lies, total destruction and complete impunity, it can feel like there’s no justice in this world and far, far too many apologists for despicable war crimes and inhuman behaviour - dare I call it, barbaric?

 

[Divine Retribution]

I am struggling with the “laugh reactions” applied in this thread. Like, are you really that lacking in basic research skills that you disagree with the notion that Israel has committed war crimes?

I'm convinced the inevitable fate of every liberal who posts in this thread is to devolve into a War Incarnate clone. Don't worry about them, nobody takes them seriously anyways. If your only means of engaging with a post is to click the laugh button then you clearly don't have any actual arguments or evidence to provide instead.

 

[Fardin]

I am struggling with the “laugh reactions” applied in this thread. Like, are you really that lacking in basic research skills that you disagree with the notion that Israel has committed war crimes?

But maybe I shouldn’t be surprised.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/17/shaban-al-dalou-burned-alive-israel-gaza

View attachment 679815

This is Sha’ban Al Dalou. He was a 19 year old student who’d already been injured. He was burned to death, still on an IV drip, in a tent, in what was meant to be a safe area.

There’s been numerous footage and videos of this, and it’s been acknowledged t have happened by even the US government.

Then this happens:

This is David Mencer. Formerly a British advisor to a British MP and a director of Labour Friends of Israel, he claimed this was fabricated yesterday, despite the overwhelming photographic and video evidence.

When you are batting a narrative of disinformation, outright lies, total destruction and complete impunity, it can feel like there’s no justice in this world and far, far too many apologists for despicable war crimes and inhuman behaviour - dare I call it, barbaric?

people laugh reacted u cause ur incapable of separating between not worshipping a terrorist and supporting a genocide, holy shit

is everything alright with u. take a breather and think before u post. its one thing to ignore every argument u cant respond to, but at least try to be somewhat reasonable when u try to twist stuff to this extent

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Uh huh. I see backtracking here. The post you made earlier was pretty clear in its tone and message. Now you’re backtracking because you’re being called out for it.



Do us a favour then: next time, if you are serious about getting sources (which frankly I don’t believe even now) don’t just turn up the moment someone is unbanned to make a mocking post, which this obviously is.

Maybe if you wanted to be taken more seriously you would have responded more seriously in the first place. But hey ho.

This is quite literally a continuation of the second-to-last conversation I had with lilyhollow before they got banned. I want sourcing for claims. If you're going to twist my frustration into me being "despicable", you need to look yourself in the mirror. Take a step back with your aggression.

People aren't laugh reacting because we condone the genocide in Gaza. We're laugh reacting because Sinwar was a bad person. If you can't see the difference, then I sincerely worry.

Yahya Sinwar may have died "heroically".

He also murdered 12 people, including 4 Palestinians, for allegedly "being in cahoots with the Israeli government".

He quite likely wouldn't have been alive now if not for Israeli involvement. He then planned the attack that killed the nephew of the doctor that saved him.

He wrote that he views Palestinian deaths (paywalled original, alternative) as "necessary sacrifices".

If Sinwar is dead, nothing changes. Another person takes the helm of Hamas. The war will not end. I don't know why Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders think it will. That doesn't mean Sinwar should be looked up to.

 

[lilyhollow]

I wish I could say I'm surprised, but this is sadly not new. Months ago, I had a discussion about this topic with Dead by Daylight, who essentially argued that 'Hamas is a terrorist organization because it is recognized as a terrorist organization by many countries.' When I asked which countries, he admitted that it was entirely western and western-allied governments--a small minority, representing a fraction of the world's population. This includes the U.S., the U.K., and Israel. You know, the extremely trustworthy countries who are currently participating in the mass slaughter of Palestinians, using the 'terrorism' lie as a pretext.

This is the true face of liberalism exposed. In these people's minds, the west is the majority. They believe that western governments are the center of the world. People in the global south are essentially not people to them. They use humanitarian-sounding language only when it suits them, only so they can maintain the illusion that they believe in anything remotely resembling justice.

Let's dispel one illusion. The west is in the overwhelming minority. The global south represents the overwhelming majority.

This 'debate' is already settled. What I post in this thread has zero impact on this. The era of the U.S. dictating to the world who is or isn't a terrorist simply is over.

Eventually, whether they like it or not, westerners will have to come to a painful realization: they are not superior to other human beings. They don't get to decide how the resistance to their genocide is perceived. The west has no say in this at all. History is 100% guaranteed to look back on Yahya Sinwar and Hamas as world-historic national liberation fighters.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Look, I gotta be honest, at the end of the day I don't really give a fuck anymore about HAMAS or Sinwar. I think it's interesting how many pro-IDF "sources" say things like...

... but even if Sinwar and HAMAS are guilty of everything they've been accused of, there's still a massive disparity on both the power and the material actions of the IDF and HAMAS. You're absolutely right in principle, both can be bad, but one has killed magnitudes more than the other, committed so many more atrocities than the other, and is literally the sole recipient of western support and weapons, but you only ever talk about how awful the other side is. At best you'll pay lip service to how 'Israel should really stop doing the whole genocide thing' before launching into a frothing-at-the-mouth tirade about how awful HAMAS is. Do you honestly not see how unserious this perspective is?

Why is it whenever some rabid Zionist comes in here to spout dehumanizing propaganda about how Palestinians are barbaric savages and Israel are the bringers of civilization or whatever, you bend over backwards to legitimize and signal boost them, but when someone comes in here and lionizes HAMAS, there's no other explanation besides them being evil terrorist apologists. Even if you genuinely think the latter is true, why are you so comfortable with the former? The IDF has literally done every horrific crime we call HAMAS terrorists for. If HAMAS is a terrorist organization, the IDF is also a terrorist organization. Do you condemn the IDF?

At the end of the day though, as some of the actual Palestinian and Lebanese users in this thread have said, we have no right in our comfy positions of Western privilege, so far removed from the colonial violence and poverty endured by the people of Gaza, to condemn them for not being ideal victims. We've left the citizens of Palestine with no alternative to HAMAS. They can die a slow death to colonial subjugation, or they can fight. HAMAS is the only one fighting for them. The only way to change that is to offer them a genuine path forward to end their occupation and repair the damages already done, and Western liberals are methodologically incapable of doing that. These are the consequences of colonialism. We've seen it many times before, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, even in Vietnam and Korea.

 

[MrHands]

Why is it whenever some rabid Zionist comes in here to spout dehumanizing propaganda about how Palestinians are barbaric savages and Israel are the bringers of civilization or whatever, you bend over backwards to legitimize and signal boost them, but when someone comes in here and lionizes HAMAS, there's no other explanation besides them being evil terrorist apologists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man