Tera Steel Bullet Punch often has no switch-ins on offense and HO as it will deal HUGE damage to Iron Crown and Cinderace daring to switch in on it, and Scizor often nearly 6-0s offenses.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
This is gonna be a burning hot take and I'll get hate for it /j but I think Scizor may deserve a spot in OU. What's holding it back is usage, it's INSANE on offenses and offensive/HO hazard stack. Yall should try it.
Booster Energy is not an issue. Iron Bundle and Flutter Mane were broken regardless of that item, and Gouging Fire is basically the only mon that is clear-cut broken 'cause of Booster Energy, so there isn't really grounds to ban it just 'cause it would lower the power level of the tier.
The item provides easy one-time speed control to its users, which is a plus considering all the strong setup boosters in the tier. Although it aids sweeping attempts it also prevents plenty of sweeps or forces you to position yourself better before going for your sweep. This is healthy for the game.
The item provides easy one-time speed control to its users, which is a plus considering all the strong setup boosters in the tier. Although it aids sweeping attempts it also prevents plenty of sweeps or forces you to position yourself better before going for your sweep. This is healthy for the game.
Gallade is so slow. Base 80 is super slow this gen, especially for an offensive mon. I'd argue that anything below base 100 is slow and you aren't fast unless you are above base 110. Anyways, Gallade has just about no shot to outspeed most things that aren't slow walls. So I feel like you'd be better off treating it like a wallbreaker than a cleaner or sweeper. However, you face competition from wallbreakers with an actual speed tier like Ogerpon, Darkrai, or mixed LO D-speed. Hamurott also outclasses Gallade in almost every way. Basically, Gallade just isn't as good as the competition.
As I have not actually used Gallade in ages, the following bit is just my intuition:
If some Gallade set were to be viable in OU, I'd try for immediate power. Run an item like CB or maybe LO if you want to switch moves. If you want speed control for Gallade, which I don't exactly recommend, use Scarf + Trick for the surprise factor. You are still a slow scarfer, but it seems better than the alternatives. Setting up an SD or an Agility on a slow and frail mon just isn't very good. The other forms of team assisted speed control are mostly bad or inconsistent in singles OU to be solely reliant on them with a mon like Gallade.
This is why I sometimes purposely wait just to throw off the overly intuitive types like you. No offense.
It's kinda valid. The speed tiers in gen 9 are mad. Setup sweepers with BE get accelerated by essentially a turn. Meanwhile, Tera often buys a turn of setup by changing your type chart. It is these accelerated setup sweepers, such as Volc, Gouging, and Moon, that often overcentralize the meta. (Volc didn't have BE, but still QD is an inherently broken move.) The problem becomes magnified when combined with setup moves that boost speed and power in one turn, such as DD or QD.
This is partly why Unaware, phasing, and priority have risen so much in importance this gen. These are all tools that can be used to deal with setup. The gen 9 meta, with Tera and BE, is overcentralized around setup mons and their counters.
To me, the most broken mon in gen 9 is Roaring Moon because BE + DD is silly. I realize this is currently an unpopular opinion. However, it also was an unpopular for Gouging Fire until people finally realized how dumb the DD sets were. This is also why I always want to see the worst abusers of QD and DD gone.
The issue people bring up with Tera Blast is that it gives mons tools they weren't supposed to have and there's no way to identify them. The Lando facing your Gliscor could be Tera Blast Ice randomly and blow your Gliscor away. Or the Iron Moth getting scary is either completely walled by Glowking or Tera Grounds Blast to sweep your team.
Booster Energy is limited to a certain set of pokemon so it's an explicit part of their design. At that point, it's a case by case basis of identifying whether the mon is broken. The Paradox mons were designed with Booster Energy in mind, and if any one of them is too strong with Booster Energy, why should the whole item be banned over just that one mon?
Tera Blast, on the other hand, is on everything. There's no way to keep it without starting complex bans like "Iron Moth can't use Tera Blast". But it's clear stuff like Lando and Iron Moth aren't broken at all, it's just that Tera Blast gives them coverage that gets past their checks in a way that's entirely unpredictable. That's why Booster Energy is fine while Tera Blast is more contentious. Obviously there's more nuance to whether Tera Blast should be banned or not, but I think it's not comparable to Booster Energy.
Great take, fantastic take. BE is not and will never be OP in my eyes, when 1/3 banned paradoxes were banned because of BE. People can and will complain until the end of time about SV OU's fucked up speed tiers, and that's true, they suck, but that doesn't make BE broken.
Booster Energy isn't Broken. It's GameFreak's terrible Min Max Stat distribution of the Paradox Mons that make it and them Broken. I feel the fact that some Paradox mons can basically go Abilityless by running anything other than Booster Energy with no other way to activate it and still thrive in the Meta proves that
Don't worry! I truly appreciate you taking the time to answer the post:)
Also, you made some points TPP and Heatranator didn't, so I really like seeing the arguments the three of you made, I actually gonna try and test Clef on ladder, you folks motivated me :)
…I’m going to have to build a team with Scizor x Hoopa-Unbound now… offense killer x fat killer…
why is there a “c”
Close Combat, Quick Attack, or maybe even Defog if things are desperate. Dual Wingbeat seems pretty legit though.
Poor Scizor, if only it got Rock Move for the birds. Nah, that would be too OP I guess..
Yo, Ogerpon-W is crazy. How is this mon still here? What can actually switch in?
RaikouLover said:
It is still here 'cause of the high speed and power of the tier + priority along with the tier being littered with hazards as well as defensive Tera.
Foul Play Amoonguss, the base form of Ogerpon with Heavy-Duty Boots, and Zamazenta-Hero are probably the 3 best initial switch-ins.
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Neither of those mons are OU though. If I'm dumpster diving just to check it, might be time for a conversation.
Like I get it, Ogerpon-W isn't cracked vs. HO which is all people run these days. But if one wants to run non-HO, the mon is cracked out.
There's also big dog Zamazenta, which I forgot to mention. THAT is an OU mon.
I run Zamazenta on every team and don't find Ogerpon-Wellspring to be one of the top 3 threats in the builder, and I primarily play fat balance.
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i dont know it's just common with the uwuers nowadays mrrp :3c
as an expert on bug monotype (19,000 word google doc about it that is 10% done YES I HAVE AUTISM WOOO) CC is by far the best, but dual wingbeat, bug bite, defog, and trailblaze are all solid options.
issue is that hoopa is a bulky balance or semistall mon and scizor is an offense mon
nothing can switch in, ban it please guys PLEASEEEE
issue is zama doesnt fit on every team, BAN WATERPON as a fat player myself
That one-time easy speed control really only applies to 1 or maybe 2 if we count The Jug. Even then Iron Valiant often just uses that free speed to set up sweep. There’s an obvious pattern with Booster Energy, and its use in OU. Majority of the Pokemon that use it as an aid to sweep. Either to gain the speed needed, or additional fire power to muscle through Pokemon that would other be checks. Even Iron Treads, who isn’t a set up sweeper, only uses booster to facilitate other Pokemon to sweep via suicide lead.
I’d argue that practically no OU viable mon uses the item for purely fair purposes. Gone are the days of Scream Tail, and Iron Jug is holding by a thread. The fact that even Iron Valiant uses Booster more so as a sweeping tool rather than an anti sweeper tool says a lot. I fail to see how this is healthy for the game.
it’s meant to be a paw in a mischievous position below the face
source: experience
disagree with a booster ban btw, i might elaborate later but i dont think its a great avenue when it doesn’t solely break anything and is, fittingly, boosting qualities that are already designed to be strong anyway into being more egregious than anything else.
also i don’t really know what positive value banning it brings to the tier; i personally have liked booster energy personally, mostly because the speed boost can be a great failsafe as much as it can be a great win condition, and it’s usable across a good range of offensive options
SMH imagine being a furry. What is this, the pokemon fandom?
Anyways yes BE is honestly maybe a little healthy for its ability to provide free speed control with the temporary disadvantage.
The issue is that the Paradox pokemon are insane, imo.
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Any updates on a gliscor test?
I hear ya. I understand ya. Though I have to ask if you can't really think of what positives it adds off the top of your head then maybe, just maybe, it isn't worth keeping around for how widely used it is.
Also not even Regieleki was banned for just solely one thing. All banned Pokemon are banned because of how their unique traits compound on each other making an overwhelming presence. You don't see Tera Ice Electrode making waves for OU. I just feel like we shouldn't keep things in the tier if they bring more negatives than positives just because the current consensus is that it's users aren't Too Broken.
when i said positive value to the tier, i'm talking about the positive value of banning it! sorry for the confusion
(also i did say positive values)
Gliscor test feels extremely futile. My sense is council is debating on whether to even bother going through with it.
I play a few games a day but I'm a bit bored. Tera blast ban would at least be exciting to bring eleki and other frens back.
I'd like to see tera blast ban. Eleki unban followed by volc retest, followed by a signature move policy change that allows arch back, logically I would hope we can follow that to a stored power conversation in order to bring back mage and espartha. I would prioritize all of that first before then thinking we should worry about boosters or palafin.
I think each step of it would be fun and each step up to magearna would almost certainly improve the game. I could be wrong about magearna- and that would set the precedent to not retest palafin. Oh well.
Between red card, ww/roar and a reintroduced volcarona and hispeed midleki i don't expect much trouble from any boosters. Val moon and bolt are the only sketchy ones left.
Without the above plan as previously wrote out by users more accomplished than me- I expect we would make our way down the banchain far enough that moon and bolt become considered the top threats enough that booster ban talk could become prominent that way.
My opinions
I play a few games a day but I'm a bit bored. Tera blast ban would at least be exciting to bring eleki and other frens back.
I'd like to see tera blast ban. Eleki unban followed by volc retest, followed by a signature move policy change that allows arch back, logically I would hope we can follow that to a stored power conversation in order to bring back mage and espartha. I would prioritize all of that first before then thinking we should worry about boosters or palafin.
I think each step of it would be fun and each step up to magearna would almost certainly improve the game. I could be wrong about magearna- and that would set the precedent to not retest palafin. Oh well.
Between red card, ww/roar and a reintroduced volcarona and hispeed midleki i don't expect much trouble from any boosters. Val moon and bolt are the only sketchy ones left.
Without the above plan as previously wrote out by users more accomplished than me- I expect we would make our way down the banchain far enough that moon and bolt become considered the top threats enough that booster ban talk could become prominent that way.
My opinions