Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

on another topic, i wanna talk about heatran. from what ive seen, its really only on sun teams or grassy terrain teams. Its really depressing though to be honest, since its now basically a budget moltres.

What would you all change for heatran or the tier in general to make it like A tier?
 
mcribs said:
on another topic, i wanna talk about heatran. from what ive seen, its really only on sun teams or grassy terrain teams. Its really depressing though to be honest, since its now basically a budget moltres.

What would you all change for heatran or the tier in general to make it like A tier?
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Give it back toxic. Literally, all it needs. Toxic means it can make progress against anything, and the few things that don't mind toxic can't switch in at all.
It even makes thematic sense. Heatran is commonly found in volcanoes, and those emit tons of toxic gases. But gf didn't want to think too much that day.
 
The only thing that would bring Heatran back to something even remotely close to its glory days again would be regaining Toxic, which played heavily into its viability for many generations. Heatran's threat level goes way down without Toxic being a part of its movepool since it can't make guaranteed progress against most mons anymore.

A lot of the mons introduced in SV also make Heatran cry, such as Enamorus and Iron Valiant, Raging Bolt, Walking Wake, Samurott-Hisui, and Roaring Moon, so the meta was always going to be less favourable for it than in previous generations, but Toxic would be the best way of improving its outlook right away.
 
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Heatranator said:
Give it back toxic. Literally, all it needs. Toxic means it can make progress against anything, and the few things that don't mind toxic can't switch in at all.
It even makes thematic sense. Heatran is commonly found in volcanoes, and those emit tons of toxic gases. But gf didn't want to think too much that day.
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That is actually a really good point as it makes sense scientifically. Also it would be kind of funny to be able to just cripple an incoming Roaring Moon with toxic lol
 
Avira said:
A lot of the mons introduced in SV also make Heatran cry, such as Enamorus and Iron Valiant, Raging Bolt, Walking Wake, Samurott-Hisui, and Roaring Moon, so the meta was always going to be less favourable for it than in previous generations, but Toxic would be the best way of improving its outlook right away.
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Yeah i agree with this notion. A lot of the special attackers can just break heatran with the crazy damage they output like bolt. Even something like iron moth, something heatran should beat, can just tera ground blast it into oblivion.

Also, heatran as a stall breaker through magma and taunt is just not as good or special anymore. Like sure, blissey gets shredded, but alomo flip turns it into oblivion. Other than toxic, giving heatran an actual grass move other than solar beam would be beneficial i feel
 
mcribs said:
on another topic, i wanna talk about heatran. from what ive seen, its really only on sun teams or grassy terrain teams. Its really depressing though to be honest, since its now basically a budget moltres.

What would you all change for heatran or the tier in general to make it like A tier?
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One of the problems with Heatran is stacking weaknesses. This gen has a lot of good pokemon that are Ground weak like Glowking, Crown, Moth, Glimm, Ace, Ghold, Gambit, and Bolt to name a few. In the first place, fitting a 4x weak Ground mon requires special team building. There aren't too many reasons why you would want Heatran over other, better mons given the restraints in the builder.

Tera Blast also really hurts a lot of the 4X weak mons because anything can pack whatever coverage just because. Ground in particular is really good, though. It is a great defensive typing and counters Thunderclap. It also pairs extremely well with certain STAB types like Flying, Ice, Fairy, or Fire. So it isn't like mons are sacrificing to go Tera Ground just for Heatran.

One thing I did try was trapping fairies with Magma Storm to pave the way for Tera Dragon sets. Unfortunately, Magma Storm has trash accuracy and this was fairly unreliable for several reasons. You could do a similar thing for Poison types for T-spikes teams to maybe make up for the lack of Toxic. But this is also probably unreliable.
 
Heatranator said:
Give it back toxic. Literally, all it needs. Toxic means it can make progress against anything, and the few things that don't mind toxic can't switch in at all.
It even makes thematic sense. Heatran is commonly found in volcanoes, and those emit tons of toxic gases. But gf didn't want to think too much that day.
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watch game freak giving it Poison gas and smog
 
Heatran currently is an honest Mon. Its not the centralizing cancer it was for several generation, removing Toxic from its movepool (just like from almost all Mons) was a great idea, hopefully it never gets it back. And if it gets it back, it should also get Shell Smash, Desolate Land or something similarly insane that would send it right to Ubers.

If I wanted to make Heatran better without breaking it or making it an anti-fun Mon (like it was with Toxic), I would give it back Eruption and also change Flame Body ability for Steely Spirit. Steely Spirit would allow Heatran to use effectively its other STAB, launching powerful Flash Cannons, Steel Beams or even Heavy Slams if you hate Blissey.
 
UltraSword said:
I have tried it and I agree that it is a really solid pokemon. Good way to check non physical kyurem sets (aka sets that don't tera) as well as mons like garcancl dragonite (bullet punch go brrrrr and resists extreme speed) and plenty of others that I am not thinking of rn. Scizor for ou bruh
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Scizor is quite good tbh, I know this replay is not that high on the ladder since I'm climbing again and I'm only at the 1750s-1800s, but I think it clearly shows Scizor's value:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2235878089

Scizor is a choice banded mon that due to being able to slap priority AND pivoting into its moveset, can effectively run bulk. Tanking after some chip damage a neutral Ivy Crudgel (can live a tera one from full) and then pivot it's an insane tool. Scizor is imo not splashable enough to be OU by usage like some new trends (Sinistcha, Pecharunt, Garchomp) but it's clearly a good Pokémon and I find it cool
 
Finally breached top 100. My cursory takeaway is play webs. Great mu into basically everything. Tera fairy plot Gholdengo with psyshock 6-0s stall. Everything else can be tailored to beat competing HOs. I can probs push higher but im satisfied and think I have enough of a viewpoint of the high ladder for my liking.

Also plays must be made at higher ladder, cant just play reactively. Even with stall. Power level is too high. Also the stigma on stall needs to die. That is by far the most difficult style to win with against anyone who knows how to play well, or has a good team. Its wayyyyy too many breakpoints. I played it primarily the last month and like previously mentioned unless you played unoptimal bullshit that ghol set just obliterates you. I would argue SD Gliscor is a necessity on stall but then you have to find a place to fit spikes. Which is basically just clod, making scor a tera hog and once again losing to ghol lol.

meteor beam Glimmora is insane btw. I need to use it more outside of webs. Good into so many mus
IMG_1351.jpeg
 
Callmeyeshua said:
Finally breached top 100. My cursory takeaway is play webs. Great mu into basically everything. Tera fairy plot Gholdengo with psyshock 6-0s stall. Everything else can be tailored to beat competing HOs. I can probs push higher but im satisfied and think I have enough of a viewpoint of the high ladder for my liking.

Also plays must be made at higher ladder, cant just play reactively. Even with stall. Power level is too high. Also the stigma on stall needs to die. That is by far the most difficult style to win with against anyone who knows how to play well, or has a good team. Its wayyyyy too many breakpoints. I played it primarily the last month and like previously mentioned unless you played unoptimal bullshit that ghol set just obliterates you. I would argue SD Gliscor is a necessity on stall but then you have to find a place to fit spikes. Which is basically just clod, making scor a tera hog and once again losing to ghol lol.

meteor beam Glimmora is insane btw. I need to use it more outside of webs. Good into so many musView attachment 684411
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I feel this too lmao. I hit 1800+ for the first time while averaging 14-1500 for a while after using the special araquanid rmt. Outside of fast ghold and glimm, it also feels pretty flexible in what you can include for the last three slots.
 
Any thoughts on Iron Hands? It could be a volt switcher that punishes Kingambit switch-ins and threatens a lot of walls with electric STAB. I was theorymoning that it could be a good partner for Darkrai.
Sp def Alomomola: Volt Switch is free and Thunder Punch does big damage.
Sp def Corv: Volt Switch is free and them clicking roost to not be weak to electric is exploitable.
Sp def Garg: Drain Punch smacks it hard and recovers off salt cure damage, and if it’s a Tera water variant volt switch is really good.
AV Hatt: Ok fine this does also force you out but it also can’t boost which means you can easily check it in the builder.
Sp def Molt: Volt Switch does a decent chunk, although again you’ll need to cover Molt elsewhere.
Ting-lu: Easy to wear down with Ice Beams from Darkrai, hazards, and drain punches from Hands.
Kingambit: You resist both STABs, threaten to OHKO it and you can then pivot out with volt switch for free
It also stacks weaknesses with Darkrai but I feel like to complete the core you could run Gking. Gking provides Future Sight support as well as a switch-in to Sp def Molt and AV Hatt and a fairy resist
RainebowValiant said:
Iron Hands' main flaw lies in the fact that it isn't very strong. Sure, it has a massive attack stat and looks like a nuke on paper, but all its moves are 75 BP (tpunch, dpunch, etc) and so it's actually not hitting particularly hard. Combine this with its really poor speed tier and bad typing into the million Grounds and it really feels like it's losing to everything.
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It has Supercell Slam, so it does actually hit hard. The grounds of the tier also really dislike switching into the combination of drain punch with ice punch and can be taken advantage of by doubling to Darkrai, for example.
 
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Conflux123 said:
Any thoughts on Iron Hands? It could be a volt switcher that punishes Kingambit switch-ins and threatens a lot of walls with electric STAB. I was theorymoning that it could be a good partner for Darkrai.
Sp def Alomomola: Volt Switch is free and Thunder Punch does big damage.
Sp def Corv: Volt Switch is free and them clicking roost to not be weak to electric is exploitable.
Sp def Garg: Drain Punch smacks it hard and recovers off salt cure damage, and if it’s a Tera water variant volt switch is really good.
AV Hatt: Ok fine this does also force you out but it also can’t boost which means you can easily check it in the builder.
Sp def Molt: Volt Switch does a decent chunk, although again you’ll need to cover Molt elsewhere.
Ting-lu: Easy to wear down with Ice Beams from Darkrai, hazards, and drain punches from Hands.
It also stacks weaknesses with Darkrai but I feel like to complete the core you could run Gking. Gking provides Future Sight support as well as a switch-in to Sp def Molt and AV Hatt and a fairy resist
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Iron Hands' main flaw lies in the fact that it isn't very strong. Sure, it has a massive attack stat and looks like a nuke on paper, but all its moves are 75 BP (tpunch, dpunch, etc) and so it's actually not hitting particularly hard. Combine this with its really poor speed tier and bad typing into the million Grounds and it really feels like it's losing to everything.
 
Conflux123 said:
Any thoughts on Iron Hands? It could be a volt switcher that punishes Kingambit switch-ins and threatens a lot of walls with electric STAB. I was theorymoning that it could be a good partner for Darkrai.
Sp def Alomomola: Volt Switch is free and Thunder Punch does big damage.
Sp def Corv: Volt Switch is free and them clicking roost to not be weak to electric is exploitable.
Sp def Garg: Drain Punch smacks it hard and recovers off salt cure damage, and if it’s a Tera water variant volt switch is really good.
AV Hatt: Ok fine this does also force you out but it also can’t boost which means you can easily check it in the builder.
Sp def Molt: Volt Switch does a decent chunk, although again you’ll need to cover Molt elsewhere.
Ting-lu: Easy to wear down with Ice Beams from Darkrai, hazards, and drain punches from Hands.
Kingambit: You resist both STABs, threaten to OHKO it and you can then pivot out with volt switch for free
It also stacks weaknesses with Darkrai but I feel like to complete the core you could run Gking. Gking provides Future Sight support as well as a switch-in to Sp def Molt and AV Hatt and a fairy resist

It has Supercell Slam, so it does actually hit hard. The grounds of the tier also really dislike switching into the combination of drain punch with ice punch and can be taken advantage of by doubling to Darkrai, for example.
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I think AV is decent, has great special bulk and can pivot into many special attackers and volt switch out

heres a calc of iron moth hitting it with sludge wave:

132 SpA Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Iron Hands: 102-121 (22.7 - 26.9%) -- 40.8% chance to 4HKO

The issue lies in being shut down by many common ground types, ESPECIALLY great tusk lol.
 
Gen question, why doesn't anyone ever talk about running Close Combats on Iron Hands? I can understand why not Supercell Slam, but Close Combat's base power coming off of an Attack stat that large slams any Ground Types not named Gliscor and Therian Landorus, and Ice Punch is just strong enough to actually threaten Gliscor while Iron Hands is bulky enough to sustain an Earth Power and 2HKO Therian Landorus on a switch
 
RyukTheDarkrai said:
Gen question, why doesn't anyone ever talk about running Close Combats on Iron Hands? I can understand why not Supercell Slam, but Close Combat's base power coming off of an Attack stat that large slams any Ground Types not named Gliscor and Therian Landorus, and Ice Punch is just strong enough to actually threaten Gliscor while Iron Hands is bulky enough to sustain an Earth Power and 2HKO Therian Landorus on a switch
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Close combat is definetely not bad, in fact its pretty good, but drain punch allows iron hands to stay healthy, which means it can stick around longer over the course of a battle. Plus, the bulkiest ground type in the tier that isn't quad weak to ice, in tusk, still takes 40% min from ice punch.
If you are using iron hands on a more offensive team, cc may actually be better, but in any longer game, drain punch's healing will allow you to threaten defensive cores more often.
 
Heatranator said:
Close combat is definetely not bad, in fact its pretty good, but drain punch allows iron hands to stay healthy, which means it can stick around longer over the course of a battle. Plus, the bulkiest ground type in the tier that isn't quad weak to ice, in tusk, still takes 40% min from ice punch.
If you are using iron hands on a more offensive team, cc may actually be better, but in any longer game, drain punch's healing will allow you to threaten defensive cores more often.
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believe it or not Close Combat actually hits Great Tusk harder
I do appreciate the answer a lot though, I just found the huge Fighting STAB hitting the Ice weak target harder than the Ice move to be pretty goofy
 
Iron Hands @ Life Orb
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 100 Def / 156 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch

Ok so here me out. Aside from ground types this weird robot with giant hands probably has the bulk to take on its checks without assault vest. I thought about expert belt because all of these attacks result in a ton of coverage but I decided on life orb instead due to drain punch. Should I change earthquake to something else? (I was thinking fake out.) Should I replace with expert belt after all? Is this set trash that deserves to burn in hell? Please tell me what you think
 
UltraSword said:
Iron Hands @ Life Orb
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 100 Def / 156 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch

Ok so here me out. Aside from ground types this weird robot with giant hands probably has the bulk to take on its checks without assault vest. I thought about expert belt because all of these attacks result in a ton of coverage but I decided on life orb instead due to drain punch. Should I change earthquake to something else? (I was thinking fake out.) Should I replace with expert belt after all? Is this set trash that deserves to burn in hell? Please tell me what you think
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I think you should go AV/Fling for Gholdengo.


(Please don't take this as a serious suggestion.)
 
Bold School said:
I think you should go AV/Fling for Gholdengo.


(Please don't take this as a serious suggestion.)
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61s0CU9bmGL._AC_UF894,1000_QL80_.jpg


(No but seriously of course not lol. I don't even think av weighs that much lol)

Edit: Assault vest has 80 bp with fling. Not using it. Iron ball would be kind of funny though because Iron Hands doesn't care that much about speed and it has 130 bp with fling. Still not using it.
 
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