Announcement SV National Dex Suspect 15 - Diamonds (Terastallization Re-Test Post DLC2) [NEW SUSPECT PROCESS]

Status
Not open for further replies.
1731187373665.png

ik no need to post reqs just happy i only lost once lol,tera in the immediate wont fix much,i think offense will temporarily get better,think about how no tera gliscor,no tera garg no tera water landorus,so on and so forth,but overtime the meta will definetly become more stable and better than it couldve ever been with it imo,things like pon would more than likely become too much and get banned,iron moth becomes fraudulent w no tera ground move,dnite no longer teras out of its weaknesses on every build.Banning tera wont fix the tier but its a step in the right direction in the long run,the only question is how long will the council wait post tera ban to either quick ban things,start suspect tests or drop pokemon like regieleki from ubers.Natdex Circuit playoffs are coming up soon so it may be hard for council to come up with a good time that suits both the general ladder and the tour players but eventually,the tier will be better for the ban in my opinion.

TL;DR Tera ban wont fix the tier immediately, but overtime it will make the tier the best it has ever been.
 
alright so

I just got reqs for the vote, and as a very clear Forum Main, for those who don't know I literally have not gotten reqs in any tier before. This is my first time.

I fucking hate this mechanic. In fact, what stood out to me this run besides the shitty ladder was how annoying Tera was, including times where Tera just 6-0'd my team, or where it required a very specific play that otherwise wouldn't be true.

annoying asf mechanic. I defended this mechanic to DEATH in an annoying and embarassing way for the first SV OU tera test days, because I thought this mechanic would be cool as like "custom megas" "custom regional forms". Instead its audience became people who think comp Pokemon is at its best with more 50/50s and more soul reads, and I found out the hard way of how annoying it is.

I've been told amany times in my Forum Main :nerd: career that if I give such a shit about the result, I should get off my ass and vote for it. This is the only time I've listened to advice.

Fuck this mechanic.

If this shit isn't banned I will not be playing another game of SV National Dex in my life lmfao
 
So I js want confirmation thzese are the arguments of the anti-tera side or part of the arguments before I argue with them, I've been shit on enough in this thread thank you.
-Making unexpected plays one wouldn't have expected to do at team preview
-ways too many 50/50s (pls define what a 50/50 is to ye)
-soul read (what is tht?)
-it's so random
-it gets crazy calcs
-lets sweeps happn
-HO too broken now.
I will wait confirmation (pls be quick) before responding to these arguments (too bad I'll be annoying again)
 
So I js want confirmation thzese are the arguments of the anti-tera side or part of the arguments before I argue with them, I've been shit on enough in this thread thank you.
-Making unexpected plays one wouldn't have expected to do at team preview
-ways too many 50/50s (pls define what a 50/50 is to ye)
-soul read (what is tht?)
-it's so random
-it gets crazy calcs
-lets sweeps happn
-HO too broken now.
I will wait confirmation (pls be quick) before responding to these arguments (too bad I'll be annoying again)
I'd say the arguments are as follows:

Making plays that run counter to normal logic / forcing 50/50s that would usually not exist
(ex. not clicking a Kyurem's Earth Power into a Tera Grass Heatran)
50/50 - a play where there are two different options, one which would win if the opponent did something but lose if the opponent did something else and vice versa for the second option

Variance in Tera
Something that counters one set (eg. Mega Scizor vs. Tera Fairy Garganacl) can't counter another (Tera Water)

"Crazy Calcs"
Tera allows offensive staples to blow through otherwise solid roadblocks or force a Tera trade at the very least

Lets Sweeps Happen Easier
Some sweepers tera to be immune to priority (or resistant to it), while others Tera to blow through checks that check them without Tera (eg. Iron Moth using Tera Ground Tera Blast to hit Heatran and Glowking)

The prevalence of HO
Defensive tera is, as outlined in this thread, far less impactful than offensive tera and leaves you weaker to other threats that you otherwise would answer, leading to the proliferation of HO teams that seek to force a Tera and capitalize off of it
 
I find tera to be a positive to prep, as it rewards scouting, good teambuilding, and players who can use a variety of teams. In the scouter, people who analyze their opponents teams for common flaws can easily find lures using Tera Blast to punish those flaws in their opponents teambuilding, while there's also an art to scouting yourself and building more consistent teams and teams you may be less comfortable with playing and building, which rewards versatile players. Tera also punishes people who recycle the same cores, teams, or styles which helps reward the prep even more. While this is subjective, I also greatly enjoy the SVND builder when prepping more than any other tier due to the interactions of Tera, Z, and full Dex have with prep and this is one of my main draws to ND, without tera the tier loses much of the excellent prepping that draws me to it.

To play devils advocate, if tera is banned anyone can steal good teams from any mainer they feel like asking and be more on par with people who scouted and prepped which may be a QOL improvement to people who don't have time to prep, I wouldn't like it but it is subjective which one makes for a better tier.
 
Shoutout to this suspect test for sending my sanity to the shadow realm. Ladder somehow feels like the worst it's been the entire generation and that's really saying something. But now that I'm finally done, I have a lot to say on the matter of Terastilization, and why I fully intend to vote to ban it.

To start with the most foremost problem with Tera, it creates an imbalanced dynamic where offense is heavily favored over defense by virtue of the mechanic bringing far greater benefits to faster playstyles than slower ones. By giving already dangerous pokemon such as Raging Bolt, Dragonite, Kyurem or previously banned targets like Kingambit, Gholdengo and even something like Annihilape, the ability to shift away from primary type weaknesses, it allows them to approach a snowball state quicker by getting more turns, and punishes less active playstyles that can't punish them or limit them quick enough. Though it's usually possible in isolated instances to minimize a Terastilized threat, for example Tera Steel Dragonite, it usually requires very reactionary play especially if the player facing it didn't expect the move, and often involves giving up at least one pokemon or overly specific lines of play to keep it from doing more damage. And this gets more troubling when those Tera threats are backed by equally menacing, tough to handle threats that can capitalize on a weakened team. Now in isolation, one or two threats, or a handful even, wouldn't be so bad.

But there are far more Tera abusing threats that one has to account for, leading to a huge amount of stress on the builder for defensive teams trying to build consistently. I cannot tell you how many times I've tried to put something experimental together in the hopes of maybe finding something semi-consistent, going for a while thinking it works, only to run into a problem match up I simply couldn't have prepared for because there simply is not nearly enough good pokemon that can compress roles as checks to such a wide range of dangerous threats. And because of this, if playing/building Balance your guaranteed to always have some kind of holes in your teams that you just have to hope you don't run into the pokemon you weren't able to prepare for.

It can be said to a degree that pokemon like Galar Slowking or Garganacl help keep Balance working at all, as their fairly wide reach of defensive utility when factoring tera alongside their natural qualities help compress checks to a fair number of things, but it's really unrealistic for them to handle so much, and when teams have to rely on specific pokemon this much, it results in teambuilding problems where other styles can build specifically to exploit these pokemon in certain ways. Garganacl's Salt Cure is a great way to slow down and limit forms of offense as typically they don't have a ton of easy stops to it, but it can be as simple as tacking on surprise Substitute set up sweepers to take advantage of it. This happened to me more than I care for during my suspect run, as I came across all manner of random Substitute users that normally would never run it (SD Garchomp, CM Iron Crown, CM or SD Valiant, SD Landorus-T, CM+Z Tapu Lele, Belly Drum Kommo-O, and still more). This of course doesn't even factor Tera abuse on set up threats that may pull this, which makes the prospect of handling them even more ridiculously unreasonable. Unless you force yourself into super tight, rigid structures, it simply isn't happening. And even those structures are still not foolproof at all.

I've said it before, but there is a laundry list of Tera abusers, who many may not be broken by themselves but when paired up on the same team can result in cores that easily overwhelm many defensive teams. Iron Crown, Raging Bolt, Archaludon, Dragonite, Kyurem, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Iron Valiant, Iron Moth, Tapu Lele, Volcarona, Urshifu-R, those are the main ones that come to mind. Now consider trying to account for various combinations of these threats used together on teams, in addition to other non Tera threats like Mega Medicham, ZardY, Mega Diancie, Z Lando, and you'll quickly see how outlandish the idea is. Then if you somehow do have a somewhat okay defensive team, then you realize in battle that your check to something is only a check so long as you're facing the Tera type of a threat you prepared for.

I'd like to briefly touch on a few claims made by some posters, that the fault of this metagame's issues doesn't like with Tera, but rather the removal of certain pokemon that helped keep a few things in line and offered some good aspects to teambuilding (the main pokemon to mind being Zamazenta but there were others I'm sure some people are referring to). It's really easy to make the claim in hindsight that maybe it wasn't the best idea to remove certain pokemon by banning them, but we were tiering at those times, we tiered with that period of the metagame in mind. We don't tier with thoughts of what may happen as a result of a ban, because frankly we cannot realistically know just how much a metagame will change as a result. Zamazenta's ban might be argued as pushing Darkrai over, but that was borderline broken when the dog was around anyways. Some might say removing Gholdengo was a mistake as it did bring some good defensive traits to teambuilding, but it also had a similarly toxic effect on defensive teams with its Bulky NP sets that, with Tera, were very hard to punish and limit. We removed these issues because in those moments, because they felt like they needed to go.

I ran bulky teams anyways despite these problems not because I thought it was a good idea (spoilers, it wasn't), but because I wanted to prove a point. It was miserable beyond belief, and it felt like every other game there was some Tera abuse come up that I didn't prep for, and couldn't possibly have. My run was not remotely clean at all, it's pretty ugly. And it was made worse by the uptick in stall to combat the HO running everywhere, which is a playstyle I also couldn't prep for. It's pretty alarming, and a major warning sign of a serious problem when other bulkier teams are almost nonexistent and players have resorted to Stall just to try and be somewhat consistent. I actually did talk with several players while getting reqs, and most of them agreed how foolish it was to try and run defense that wasn't Stall on this ladder.

Tera overwhelmingly favors offensive playstyles, and the use of this mechanic is greatly weighted towards their success. It's much more efficient to use for an offensive threat whether setting up and sweeping or using a hyper strong wallbreaker to truly lock down defense, rather than try and react with Tera on a defensive team. Its presence has majorly helped push the viability of Balance to near unviability (and at this point I'm wondering if it straight up is just unviable), and it's caused a massive stagnation in building and playing. We've tried over and over with suspects of individual pokemon, removing problems hoping to improve the tier, but it has not.

Will removing Terastilization solve EVERY issue this tier has? Doubtful, even as a staunchly pro ban player, but it's a crucial step in the right direction to reduce volatility, reduce variance and threat saturation, and improve consistency with teambuilding. I will strongly be voting BAN Tera.
 
To play devils advocate, if tera is banned anyone can steal good teams from any mainer they feel like asking and be more on par with people who scouted and prepped which may be a QOL improvement to people who don't have time to prep, I wouldn't like it but it is subjective which one makes for a better tier.
in a competitive game, people play to win, and therefore will use the best teams they can find. Why is that something that should be punished?
 
I'd say the arguments are as follows:

Making plays that run counter to normal logic / forcing 50/50s that would usually not exist
(ex. not clicking a Kyurem's Earth Power into a Tera Grass Heatran)
50/50 - a play where there are two different options, one which would win if the opponent did something but lose if the opponent did something else and vice versa for the second option

Variance in Tera
Something that counters one set (eg. Mega Scizor vs. Tera Fairy Garganacl) can't counter another (Tera Water)

"Crazy Calcs"
Tera allows offensive staples to blow through otherwise solid roadblocks or force a Tera trade at the very least

Lets Sweeps Happen Easier
Some sweepers tera to be immune to priority (or resistant to it), while others Tera to blow through checks that check them without Tera (eg. Iron Moth using Tera Ground Tera Blast to hit Heatran and Glowking)

The prevalence of HO
Defensive tera is, as outlined in this thread, far less impactful than offensive tera and leaves you weaker to other threats that you otherwise would answer, leading to the proliferation of HO teams that seek to force a Tera and capitalize off of it
Alrighty
Making plays that run counter to normal logic / forcing 50/50s that would usually not exist
This isn't game breaking. we had the "will the gyarados mega or not" mindgame for 3 gens and Generally you can play around it. sure, if you click a fighting type move and it doesnt mega, it got a free DD, but if you click a Rock type moveand it Megas, the damage will be Lessened. It's not the same scale but the situation is similar. It takes abigger amount of effort in the case of Tera, but it's manageable. Yes Heatran is a very strong defensive Tera Abuser but it's because it has Magma storm and 130 SpA that the situation is punishing, not only because of Tera. + now the Heatran Tera'd so you can click Ice beam on the Lando, EP on the Koko, Fire blast on the Ferro.

Variance in Tera
That example of yours is mid. Scizor will never counter garg unless it's at +2 attack beorehand because Garg can and will salt cure protect and recover stall it. What I can understand from "Variance in Tera" is that a Signle Pokémon Viably runs a lot of Tera Types, which is true, but is it broken? nah. Lando has Defensive Helm sets whose counterplay is totally different from Double dance, taunt SD, or Flyinium Nuke Sets. Tera Type is js part of the set imo. we played 2 yars with Tera and sure it's totally different from SS ND but so what? Is it dramatic? I like Metas to be very different from each other, that's why I vote DNB

"Crazy Calcs"
This is a totally true and Valid argument. Crazy calcs push you to play offensively rather than defensively, but is it Game breaking or worth a Ban? neh. Twave the Lele, dont set the rocks, or even better, Gyro ball. You do not "safely" set the rocks anyways because Then ur ferro is at like 20% health so GL when the Lele Comes back.

Lets Sweeps Happen More Easily
Why, yes it does, that's how we the people use it. Now this is really an all-or-nothing act to Tera your sweeper because if the sweep fails, the opp has the advantage of Teraing whenever. I like the Medicham vs Dnite example because No Dnite ever Teras on the Fake out turn, for it is a humongous disadvantage, so you kinda just
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 282-334 (87.3 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
and then Bullet Punch/switch to your extreme speed answer, I say, play smarter not harder.

The prevalence of HO
I dare ye to Make a Viable HO with No Iron moth, no Ogerpon, no raging bolt, no Loaded Dice Kyu. I'm tellin ye, the HO issue is caused by the mons, with Ogerpon Forcing Tera on Dozo, letting other Teammates Dozo should check Finish it off. Prior to Waterpon, Dozo didn't run Bpress usually. it ran Liquidation and didn't kill my poor boi Mega Gyara. Brainless HO Exists because Things like Rbolt, Kyu and waterpon are in the Tier. a Balanced Metagame would be one where the HO is counterable which isn't the case as long as waterpon can come and sweep at any moment, wether or not you have ferro, corv, Kyu, or anything that should offensively or defensively check it.
 
Alrighty
Making plays that run counter to normal logic / forcing 50/50s that would usually not exist
This isn't game breaking. we had the "will the gyarados mega or not" mindgame for 3 gens and Generally you can play around it. sure, if you click a fighting type move and it doesnt mega, it got a free DD, but if you click a Rock type moveand it Megas, the damage will be Lessened. It's not the same scale but the situation is similar. It takes abigger amount of effort in the case of Tera, but it's manageable. Yes Heatran is a very strong defensive Tera Abuser but it's because it has Magma storm and 130 SpA that the situation is punishing, not only because of Tera. + now the Heatran Tera'd so you can click Ice beam on the Lando, EP on the Koko, Fire blast on the Ferro.

Variance in Tera
That example of yours is mid. Scizor will never counter garg unless it's at +2 attack beorehand because Garg can and will salt cure protect and recover stall it. What I can understand from "Variance in Tera" is that a Signle Pokémon Viably runs a lot of Tera Types, which is true, but is it broken? nah. Lando has Defensive Helm sets whose counterplay is totally different from Double dance, taunt SD, or Flyinium Nuke Sets. Tera Type is js part of the set imo. we played 2 yars with Tera and sure it's totally different from SS ND but so what? Is it dramatic? I like Metas to be very different from each other, that's why I vote DNB

"Crazy Calcs"
This is a totally true and Valid argument. Crazy calcs push you to play offensively rather than defensively, but is it Game breaking or worth a Ban? neh. Twave the Lele, dont set the rocks, or even better, Gyro ball. You do not "safely" set the rocks anyways because Then ur ferro is at like 20% health so GL when the Lele Comes back.

Lets Sweeps Happen More Easily
Why, yes it does, that's how we the people use it. Now this is really an all-or-nothing act to Tera your sweeper because if the sweep fails, the opp has the advantage of Teraing whenever. I like the Medicham vs Dnite example because No Dnite ever Teras on the Fake out turn, for it is a humongous disadvantage, so you kinda just
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 282-334 (87.3 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
and then Bullet Punch/switch to your extreme speed answer, I say, play smarter not harder.

The prevalence of HO
I dare ye to Make a Viable HO with No Iron moth, no Ogerpon, no raging bolt, no Loaded Dice Kyu. I'm tellin ye, the HO issue is caused by the mons, with Ogerpon Forcing Tera on Dozo, letting other Teammates Dozo should check Finish it off. Prior to Waterpon, Dozo didn't run Bpress usually. it ran Liquidation and didn't kill my poor boi Mega Gyara. Brainless HO Exists because Things like Rbolt, Kyu and waterpon are in the Tier. a Balanced Metagame would be one where the HO is counterable which isn't the case as long as waterpon can come and sweep at any moment, wether or not you have ferro, corv, Kyu, or anything that should offensively or defensively check it.
Gyarados is one (rather non-meta) Pokemon. Now imagine if we took that principle and applied it to every single Pokemon in existence. I know you mentioned that it "takes a bigger effort in the case of Tera", except the issue with this argument is that Tera forces a level of prediction which leads to plays counterintuitive to normal logic in any scenario.

The Lando counterexample, and the overarching argument of "every set has different counterplay", is just a false equivalency because you can very reasonably predict what set a Lando will be (say, for example, a Balance team will usually have Helmet Lando, while a HO team will be running Suicide Lando), but not predict what Tera your opponent chooses to use until it might just be too late.

I'm confused as to what your response entails. My point was that Tera enables checks to blow past their answers, so switching them in directly just leads to you dying. I don't get what you're saying (it seems that you're just accepting the reason?)

Again, you are missing my point here. Many teams will pack one dedicated counter or a layering of soft checks to a sweeper (because in this metagame, hard countering every major threat with balance is near-impossible), which a well-timed Tera can allow that sweeper to break through the soft checks not expecting a +2 Dragonite rather than a +1 or simply flip the script on a hard counter.

All of Iron Moth, Waterpon, and Loaded Dice Kyurem rely on Tera to beat their checks that would wall them in a Tera-less metagame, and Raging Bolt uses it as well (if not Dragonium). The Waterpon should not sweep at any moment, but that threat level is due to Tera boosting Ivy Cudgel to ridiculous heights. You also never addressed my main argument that a defensive tera is inherently disadvantageous to an offensive tera, which was another point in this paragraph.
 
Gyarados is one (rather non-meta) Pokemon. Now imagine if we took that principle and applied it to every single Pokemon in existence. I know you mentioned that it "takes a bigger effort in the case of Tera", except the issue with this argument is that Tera forces a level of prediction which leads to plays counterintuitive to normal logic in any scenario.
that is not and was never game breaking.

Congrats, you've cherrypicked my example to reach some minimum word count in the paragraph. The Lando counterexample, and the overarching argument of "every set has different counterplay", is just a false equivalency because you can very reasonably predict what set a Lando will be (say, for example, a Balance team will usually have Helmet Lando, while a HO team will be running Suicide Lando), but not predict what Tera your opponent chooses to use until it might just be too late.
ah yes the very famous Tera water Raging bolt on Sun makes it hard for me to click Ice Beam.

anyways it'd be lame to just continue arguing with this form no? I can if you insist, but let's be real. the few things you are right about in your arguments that just show how Tera works, not that it is broken. if it's so difficult to check things with balance, try another archetype. like literally you do not need Defensive scizor + Pex on every team. Innovate, try new styles, ones you may enjoy.
 
if it's so difficult to check things with balance, try another archetype. like literally you do not need Defensive scizor + Pex on every team. Innovate, try new styles, ones you may enjoy.
I'm not really part of this discussion because I don't even play Natdex besides a few times every few months, but if this is really one of your arguemnts, then man, you gotta come up with something better. Saying "just play another playstyle" is so disingenuous to the fact that from what I've seen, people have been trying to innovate, and tera doesn't allow people to do that. They want to try new balance styles, but tera says nope to that. Letting an entire playstyle be extremely difficult because of a mechanic is not really good grounds for something staying around.
Again, not really part of this discussion, but from my lurking, your arguements just like this one, have been low quality. Others have made decent DNB reasonings, but if your responses to people are just insulting them and using stuff like this arguement to drop entire playstyles, then that's not good at all.
 
I'm not really part of this discussion because I don't even play Natdex besides a few times every few months, but if this is really one of your arguemnts, then man, you gotta come up with something better. Saying "just play another playstyle" is so disingenuous to the fact that from what I've seen, people have been trying to innovate, and tera doesn't allow people to do that. They want to try new balance styles, but tera says nope to that. Letting an entire playstyle be extremely difficult because of a mechanic is not really good grounds for something staying around.
Again, not really part of this discussion, but from my lurking, your arguements just like this one, have been low quality. Others have made decent DNB reasonings, but if your responses to people are just insulting them and using stuff like this arguement to drop entire playstyles, then that's not good at all.
You could be better at reading, and notice how disrespectful the post I'm answering to is. but nooo, of course since they agree with you everything is fiine.
I really don't mind telling people to change playstyle. I'm a TR player I don't see how telling TR to chnage how it plays is different than tellign Bala,ce, so yea, Change how younplay Balance LOL. I've tried the civilized way to talk to these people but apparently they do not appreciate it, so why continue tryinh, when the Suspect results will come out, the impact of thsi thread will have been minimal, no matter the issue. whta, 3 people at best changed opinion after reading this thread. in the end all that matters is bias and who has attended the best Propaganda classes.
the arguments proposed here are boileddown to "thinking gives le a headache" and okay if that's the case Gen 1/2 OU still has a ladder go spam Snorlax or whatever. So yea People will "haha" me bc that's as much as they can do before screaming to ban.
 
You could be better at reading, and notice how disrespectful the post I'm answering to is. but nooo, of course since they agree with you everything is fiine.
I've been reading the thread, and frankly, the post that you were answering to wasn't disrespectful at all. If you can't own up to your actions, then I don't have high hopes for this thread. So again, tone down the snarkiness and bring actual good points to the table. I don't necessarily agree on whether Tera is broken or not, as I do think defensive tera may be a little underexplored (but again, I don't touch this meta a lot, so maybe I'm being ignorant and people have tried this and failed).
I really don't mind telling people to change playstyle. I'm a TR player I don't see how telling TR to chnage how it plays is different than tellign Bala,ce, so yea, Change how younplay Balance LOL. I've tried the civilized way to talk to these people but apparently they do not appreciate it, so why continue tryinh, when the Suspect results will come out, the impact of thsi thread will have been minimal, no matter the issue. whta, 3 people at best changed opinion after reading this thread. in the end all that matters is bias and who has attended the best Propaganda classes.
the arguments proposed here are boileddown to "thinking gives le a headache" and okay if that's the case Gen 1/2 OU still has a ladder go spam Snorlax or whatever. So yea People will "haha" me bc that's as much as they can do before screaming to ban.
Funny how you accuse me of being bad at reading, yet this is you respond. The difference between TR and Balance is that TR is an incredibly niche playstyle that is very one dimensional. Balance on the other hand, is a core playstyle (the 5 main core playstyles being HO, Offense, BO, Balance and Stall) that is meant to be somewhat diverse and many other playstyles branch off it (for instance, TR is a subset of HO, which is a big difference from Balance). If you can actually bring some points on what people could change there balance teams so they can actually account for most things in the tier, then be my guest. That is what people are complaining about. Tera, in there eyes, means that Balance teams can't account for most things in the builder without using the same old structures which other playstyles can exploit.
I won't talk about the last few sentences, I won't even respond to them frankly. You just are being rude and add nothing of substance to the post. Maybe there's a reason why people are haha'ing your post. And no, its just not because your DNB on tera. Look at LBN's post, that only has two haha reacts.
 
I don't see why there should be a hidden meaning in your messages. you say "you cant predict what tera your opp will be" I counter argue by saying Raging bolt will never run Tera water on Sun and oh goh I missed the point by a Kilometer(roughly 0.6 miles or so I've heard)? okay bro.

"the mons are in fact the problem, without the mons you can't fight the mons"
"exactly, Tera is broken!" ahh situation
Waterpon doesnt rely on Tera to beat its checks. it will either Run Suerpower or play rough or just crit because Crits are funny. Moth, to bypass its counters, will always Tera ground. always. no unpredictable no nothing. Moth will tera Ground. Dice Kyu will fo Dice Kyu things and thud into resists. I start to understand why y'all want Melme back. but eh no no complex bans.
First of all, there's no "hidden meaning" to my words. I'm saying that providing 1 (not even really relevant, I have never seen a Tera Water Bolt be used over Tera Fairy) example of "predicting" a tera type is nowhere near enough to say that Tera is more unpredictable than normal set building. I'll tell you that there are numerous tera types on a lot of different threats; here's a few examples.

:Dragonite: Dragonite can reasonably run Tera Steel (on 2A Dragon Dance sets), Tera Fire (on DD + Scale Shot + Fire Punch), or the rarer Tera Normal (on like the random Curse sets).

:garganacl: Garganacl can reasonably run Tera Water or Tera Fairy, each offering their separate defensive benefits.

:iron valiant: Valiant can reasonably run Tera Dark on Swords Dance sets, Tera Electric on Calm Mind sets, and Tera Fairy on Specs sets (I've experimented with Tera Ghost, but haven't seen it prevalently).

:volcarona: Volcarona can run either Tera Grass on its offensive set or Tera Steel on its bulky set.

I really don't understand what the first sentence of your response means. Waterpon uses Tera to turn otherwise-threats like Torn-T into free setup opportunities with the SpD boost. Iron Moth is always Tera Ground on HO, yes, but being able to use Tera Ground Tera Blast to blow away Heatran and Glowking after a boost or 2 is what makes it as much of a threat as it is. Loaded Dice Kyurem can often run Tera Electric Tera Blast to snipe Toxapex and Alomomola, two otherwise ardent checks to it that should, in a teraless metagame, wall it completely. I fail to see how any of these three would be broken in a Tera-less metagame, although Waterpon is somewhat borderline.
 
Waterpon doesnt rely on Tera to beat its checks.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Corviknight: 271-321 (67.9 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Corviknight: 362-428 (90.7 - 107.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Garchomp: 288-340 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Garchomp: 384-454 (91.4 - 108%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 204-240 (70.5 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 272-320 (94.1 - 110.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 300-354 (78.3 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 400-472 (104.4 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 112+ Def Scizor-Mega: 231-273 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 112+ Def Scizor-Mega: 308-364 (89.7 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


This is also not mentioning the implications of defensive tera with the 1.5x spdef allowing it to live the attacks of counters and set up/pick up free kills, which is the main reason why it's so oppressive (too lazy to write out calcs). Without terastalization it will still be an incredibly strong mon due to its speed tier and stab combo, but not nearly as broken as it currently is.
 
Last edited:
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Corviknight: 271-321 (67.9 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Corviknight: 362-428 (90.7 - 107.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Garchomp: 288-340 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Garchomp: 384-454 (91.4 - 108%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 204-240 (70.5 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 272-320 (94.1 - 110.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 300-354 (78.3 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 400-472 (104.4 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 112+ Def Scizor-Mega: 231-273 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 112+ Def Scizor-Mega: 308-364 (89.7 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


This is also not mentioning the implications of defensive tera with the 1.5x spdef allowing it to live the attacks of counters and set up/pick up free kills, which is the main reason why it's so oppressive (too lazy to write out calcs). Without terastalization it will still be an incredibly strong mon due to its speed tier and stab combo, but not nearly as broken as it currently is.
This is odd because expenidng tera to push more dmg in on smth that u can chip down with hazards, knock off, u-turn and other mons feels like a bad use of tera

Sure you can get ko's you could not before but this seems like a misuise of it... you are now down tera and mono water isnt the hardest to revenge kill....

_____

Well either way I did not come here for nothing...

I think tera is broken...

Why? Well when playing the ladder it felt generally like balance teams get ran over by z-moves, megas, paradon pokemon + tera, and just tera pokemon in general like volcarona, iron crown, raging bolt, dragonite, iron moth, etc...

Sure they dont auto win, nor do they sweep on their own but with tera it causes a lot more stuff to go in ones head especially when you are already preparing for a lot of stuff. Smth like iron crown can tera and get out of hand really quickly it felt like while smth like iron moth can make u guess for life

Many teams are just not prepped to deal with smth by walling it forever and often times a good tera can break through it, esp in the later parts of the game this feels like you are just guessing to hope it goes in your favor.

Many sample teams I have used felt odd esp the more balance ones where you often have to be very careful against potential mons who can use tera to run you over. HO on the other hand felt really dominating to play especially using pokemon like dragonite, great tusk, iron crown, kyurem, and often I faced against people who either had to make guesses assuming smth I had that I maybe did not... maybe the dragonite I had was tera fire or tera steel and that ferrothorn kinda gets sat on

I do think its a problem, esp for gen 9 pokemon who are also capable of using z-moves, it felt like a nightmare sometimes just getting blown away by defensive tera where my mon was not really able to touch it... smth like iron crown with tera felt very terrifying while my own tera fire drgaonite often got setup esp against mons like tapu lele, scarf urshifu-rs clicking ice spinner, weavile trying to t axel me..
 
1731303312495.png

Finally got reqs, and of course according to the thread's rules I have to post them here.

Jokes aside, I'd like to reiterate my post from earlier, since no one has given me an actual answer: if we don't ban Tera, how do we fix the metagame? 29 bans into the generation, not even counting non-Pokemon bans, and the metagame keeps getting worse. When do we say enough is enough? Do we just accept the offensive, volatile tier as the new norm?
 
View attachment 686691
Finally got reqs, and of course according to the thread's rules I have to post them here.

Jokes aside, I'd like to reiterate my post from earlier, since no one has given me an actual answer: if we don't ban Tera, how do we fix the metagame? 29 bans into the generation, not even counting non-Pokemon bans, and the metagame keeps getting worse. When do we say enough is enough? Do we just accept the offensive, volatile tier as the new norm?
Well, the Metagame keeps getting worse... or does it? Nah cause whereas I had dropped Natdex Before Zama ban, I am having a blast rn altho I reckon some things are broken. obviously it keeps getting better, like nothing, absolutely nothing got over 4 during this player survey, the major signs of any worsening is in the Balance and enjoyment. but, why? if it's not the mons nor the mechanics, what is it? I ain't giving my opinion on the subject, what are you all's?

and wha u mean the tier is volatile? just askin
 
Well, the Metagame keeps getting worse... or does it? Nah cause whereas I had dropped Natdex Before Zama ban, I am having a blast rn altho I reckon some things are broken. obviously it keeps getting better, like nothing, absolutely nothing got over 4 during this player survey, the major signs of any worsening is in the Balance and enjoyment. but, why? if it's not the mons nor the mechanics, what is it? I ain't giving my opinion on the subject, what are you all's?

and wha u mean the tier is volatile? just askin
Ok I ignored your last post but I have to address this one:
Objectively the metagame is getting worse. If Balance drops by 1.64 and Enjoyment drops by 0.86 on a survey, that does not mean "it keeps getting better", that means its actively getting worse. If nothing got over a 4 for the survey despite the metagame being in obviously a poor state, that means that there's too many threats for the community to pick one. Now, if only they all shared a common mechanic that they all use to varying degrees of effectiveness that we could suspect... oh wait, they do, and it's Terastalization.

If you seriously looked at the survey results and concluded "the metagame is getting better", I don't know what to say.
 
Ok I ignored your last post but I have to address this one:
Objectively the metagame is getting worse. If Balance drops by 1.64 and Enjoyment drops by 0.86 on a survey, that does not mean "it keeps getting better", that means its actively getting worse. If nothing got over a 4 for the survey despite the metagame being in obviously a poor state, that means that there's too many threats for the community to pick one. Now, if only they all shared a common mechanic that they all use to varying degrees of effectiveness that we could suspect... oh wait, they do, and it's Terastalization.

If you seriously looked at the survey results and concluded "the metagame is getting better", I don't know what to say.
nah bro why you upset if we cannot pick a threat as a community either there is no real threat (there is) either none of them is broken enough and the problem is elsewhere. I didn't look at the survey to conclude that things weren't getting worse. Ya HO is very stronk but I do prefer a ton of bans rather than Tera ban. It's my personal opinion, my personal vote, and there are people that share this opinion,and this among others is a reason I'll vote DNB
 
Teras are a problem, but is removing them the solution?
I firmly believe that tera itself is not the problem. The problem is that players CAN'T know what to expect.
I know it's frustrating to play against a Dragonite, expecting it to be tera fairy and instead being tera steel or normal, but is removing teras all together really the problem?

I think teras are an interesting mechanic which adds a lot to the competitive game, if treated correctly.
Defensively it's a way to get to a better position without the need of switching your mon to one which resists the upcoming move, offensively is a way to deal more damage and the clear drawbacks of such a mechanic are that, for one, once you used it your opponent doesn't need to worry anymore about any type changes and secondly you trade the original weaknesses and resistances for new ones (except if a monotype mon teras to the same type) which i find extremely fun. Under one condition, though.

Now, i mainly play VGC and i've been playing both online and at live tournaments since 2017. I've played through Megas, Z moves, Dynas and Teras and i would no doubt rank Teras first place in a list of my favourite generational mechanics/gimmicks, but i feel like they would have been last place if TPCI didn't implement Open Team Sheets in the ruleset (and also think that Z Moves would go from last place to second if we had OTS's back then) and i think OTS's might solve a lot of tera's problems in other formats as well.

Before you tell me that tera is less frustrating in VGC in the first place, i'd like to bring your attention to International Challenges (and Battle Spot in general).
VGC players HATE ic's. I feel lucky for the fact i forgot to sign up for the last one and the reason people hate them so much is mainly the fact that the whole event has Closed Team Sheets and people are able to BS their way to victory with unexpected and unconventional teras making the game much more volatile and extremely random.

Lately i've been playing a lot of different formats, including 1v1, 2v2, national dex, national dex doubles, ubers, ubers doubles, etc... and a recurring theme in all of them is that i would like to throw my PC out the window whenever my opponent uses tera, but the same goes for VGC without OTS's.
I think that OTS's would discourage people from running random teras and that would consequently create a solid gerarchy of teras for each mon in a larger scale and, in a smaller scale, would make you know what to expect and make you able to play around it.

I think we should at least give it a try. If it doesn't work, then, we can remove it, but tera is too much fun for us to point blank delete it.

Thank you for reading.
 
Teras are a problem, but is removing them the solution?
I firmly believe that tera itself is not the problem. The problem is that players CAN'T know what to expect.
I know it's frustrating to play against a Dragonite, expecting it to be tera fairy and instead being tera steel or normal, but is removing teras all together really the problem?

I think teras are an interesting mechanic which adds a lot to the competitive game, if treated correctly.
Defensively it's a way to get to a better position without the need of switching your mon to one which resists the upcoming move, offensively is a way to deal more damage and the clear drawbacks of such a mechanic are that, for one, once you used it your opponent doesn't need to worry anymore about any type changes and secondly you trade the original weaknesses and resistances for new ones (except if a monotype mon teras to the same type) which i find extremely fun. Under one condition, though.

Now, i mainly play VGC and i've been playing both online and at live tournaments since 2017. I've played through Megas, Z moves, Dynas and Teras and i would no doubt rank Teras first place in a list of my favourite generational mechanics/gimmicks, but i feel like they would have been last place if TPCI didn't implement Open Team Sheets in the ruleset (and also think that Z Moves would go from last place to second if we had OTS's back then) and i think OTS's might solve a lot of tera's problems in other formats as well.

Before you tell me that tera is less frustrating in VGC in the first place, i'd like to bring your attention to International Challenges (and Battle Spot in general).
VGC players HATE ic's. I feel lucky for the fact i forgot to sign up for the last one and the reason people hate them so much is mainly the fact that the whole event has Closed Team Sheets and people are able to BS their way to victory with unexpected and unconventional teras making the game much more volatile and extremely random.

Lately i've been playing a lot of different formats, including 1v1, 2v2, national dex, national dex doubles, ubers, ubers doubles, etc... and a recurring theme in all of them is that i would like to throw my PC out the window whenever my opponent uses tera, but the same goes for VGC without OTS's.
I think that OTS's would discourage people from running random teras and that would consequently create a solid gerarchy of teras for each mon in a larger scale and, in a smaller scale, would make you know what to expect and make you able to play around it.

I think we should at least give it a try. If it doesn't work, then, we can remove it, but tera is too much fun for us to point blank delete it.

Thank you for reading.
Issue is, complex implementations like open team sheet/tera type will never be feasible solutions. There is too much work required in determining if such a solution is a net positive for the metagame including testing and feedback, and frankly it will take too long while posing multiple logistical problems. Smogon formats also do not tend to resort to complex bans/implementations, and open team sheet/tera type is an idea that has been proposed in ou and subsequently rejected. I do not believe national dex has the authority to take the first stride in aspects such as this

Open team sheet by itself also significantly reduces ability for innovation, leading to an overall more stale metagame. This issue is especially prevalent in singles, where comparatively to doubles there are less synergistic interactions between pokemon on the same team. It hits the tournament scene the hardest, making prep for the most part obsolete as people just play it safe and bring solid mons and proven sets. Even if it does fix the issue of terastalization, it does not lead to a superior metagame.
 
Teras are a problem, but is removing them the solution?
I firmly believe that tera itself is not the problem. The problem is that players CAN'T know what to expect.
I know it's frustrating to play against a Dragonite, expecting it to be tera fairy and instead being tera steel or normal, but is removing teras all together really the problem?

I think teras are an interesting mechanic which adds a lot to the competitive game, if treated correctly.
Defensively it's a way to get to a better position without the need of switching your mon to one which resists the upcoming move, offensively is a way to deal more damage and the clear drawbacks of such a mechanic are that, for one, once you used it your opponent doesn't need to worry anymore about any type changes and secondly you trade the original weaknesses and resistances for new ones (except if a monotype mon teras to the same type) which i find extremely fun. Under one condition, though.

Now, i mainly play VGC and i've been playing both online and at live tournaments since 2017. I've played through Megas, Z moves, Dynas and Teras and i would no doubt rank Teras first place in a list of my favourite generational mechanics/gimmicks, but i feel like they would have been last place if TPCI didn't implement Open Team Sheets in the ruleset (and also think that Z Moves would go from last place to second if we had OTS's back then) and i think OTS's might solve a lot of tera's problems in other formats as well.

Before you tell me that tera is less frustrating in VGC in the first place, i'd like to bring your attention to International Challenges (and Battle Spot in general).
VGC players HATE ic's. I feel lucky for the fact i forgot to sign up for the last one and the reason people hate them so much is mainly the fact that the whole event has Closed Team Sheets and people are able to BS their way to victory with unexpected and unconventional teras making the game much more volatile and extremely random.

Lately i've been playing a lot of different formats, including 1v1, 2v2, national dex, national dex doubles, ubers, ubers doubles, etc... and a recurring theme in all of them is that i would like to throw my PC out the window whenever my opponent uses tera, but the same goes for VGC without OTS's.
I think that OTS's would discourage people from running random teras and that would consequently create a solid gerarchy of teras for each mon in a larger scale and, in a smaller scale, would make you know what to expect and make you able to play around it.

I think we should at least give it a try. If it doesn't work, then, we can remove it, but tera is too much fun for us to point blank delete it.

Thank you for reading.

I had this argument earlier this week, but tera preview actually exacerbates the issue. As it stands, tera rewards keeping up with trends in the tier, for example Dragonite will only ever run tera Steel, Normal or Fire, and while someone new to the tier might consider something like Fairy or Flying for example., most that are familiar with the tier can make an educated guess that it will not. Even as an avid tera hater, I can admit that this is a completely healthy dynamic, and even beneficial for the tier as it more consistently rewards the better and more knowledgeable player, and tera preview would only serve to remove this element, which is one of the only real pro-tera arguments. Additionally, it's not easy for a random bullshit tera to outright win you a game in singles, sure it might buy you a couple free turns but that is usually it. From the little I know of VGC, their games are significantly higher pace, it is rare to see a game last more than 10 turns, whereas in singles games can go up to 1000, and thus the 1 or 2 free turns that a random tera can afford you have far higher value in VGC than in singles. In addition to this, VGC has a far more pronounced issue of different regions having completely different metagames, adding another layer of difficulty to trying to guess your opponent's tera, as it could simply be something that has not yet been seen in your region, and while this issue is kind of present in nd due to the large and mostly separate Chinese playerbase, it is far less pronounced as ladder provides a neutral ground for all to play against each other. To be brutally honest, if you don't know what to expect from an opponent's tera then frankly that is an issue with your lack of knowledge of the tier, and this applies to every tier and format.

tldr tera preview is a bad idea since it removes a layer of skill expression that tera otherwise adds
 
Issue is, complex implementations like open team sheet/tera type will never be feasible solutions. There is too much work required in determining if such a solution is a net positive for the metagame including testing and feedback, and frankly it will take too long while posing multiple logistical problems. Smogon formats also do not tend to resort to complex bans/implementations, and open team sheet/tera type is an idea that has been proposed in ou and subsequently rejected. I do not believe national dex has the authority to take the first stride in aspects such as this

Open team sheet by itself also significantly reduces ability for innovation, leading to an overall more stale metagame. This issue is especially prevalent in singles, where comparatively to doubles there are less synergistic interactions between pokemon on the same team. It hits the tournament scene the hardest, making prep for the most part obsolete as people just play it safe and bring solid mons and proven sets. Even if it does fix the issue of terastalization, it does not lead to a superior metagame.
We currently have a case study to base our suppositions on.
First of all, open team sheets are already in the game, i feel like it wouldn't be too hard to put them in other formats as well. In VGC bo1 there's even the possibility to agree or disagree to OTS's each individual match.
Secondly, while restricted metas are inherently stale, we have examples of VGC formats which change to an incredible speed even if there have been OTS's for years now. The current format, regulation h, has been one of the most variable ones i've ever seen, it's crazy and OTS's didn't slow it down.
For example, even if normal tera Bloodmoon Ursaluna has been a staple in VGC for a while now, water tera BM is taking its place, but it's just one of many.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top