Colbur Hex T-Wave Focus blast is my favorite set as it can cripple many of Ghold's checks, lures Kingambit, and is great against many other common Pokémon like Zamazenta, Tapu Lele, Valiant etc. That said this set is easily pressured by all the Ground and electrics in the tier like Zapdos and Landorus-T.
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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Nashrock
- Start date
Wanted to make a post on the surveyed mons
This mon is nasty vs fat but much more tolerable vs anything else than before, largely due to Pult and Zama. I do not think we should ban a mon solely for its strength against slower playstyles if it's not to an extremely unreasonable degree such that no counterplay could possibly exist. We may see cores such as Alomomola + Zamazenta emerge, or potentially the rise of Hydrapple like in CG OU, let's just give it time.
Drops
Nothing is broken except potentially Dragapult, which I would probably vote DNB on right now. There is too much counterplay for the other drops for any of them to be broken. I could elaborate on counterplay to any individual mon if anyone wants, but if you genuinely believe any of the other drops are broken right now, it is unlikely you will be convinced. I hope people are able to distinguish top-tier mons from broken mons because a lot of complaints are essentially sticking the former with the latter label.
Suspects
Should probably have been quickdropped, mon is not only accounted for very easily by Pult checks you have to run on teams anyway, but also other bulky Steels such as Ferrothorn and MSciz. How much supposed value it adds to the tier shouldn't be relevant if it is neither broken nor sufficiently unhealthy. I know a lot of council members have uh... strong feelings about this mon, so I am curious if the survey results end up reflecting or subverting this.
As a side note, I find it a bit disappointing how some on the council are willing to retest Magearna but not even consider Espathra... when Magearna does the same Stored Power stuff but is actually good at it. I am not throwing shade but I do not think this discrepancy can be reasonably reconciled - if you think Espathra is broken, then you must also believe Magearna is. If you don't, please just admit that the only reason Espathra doesn't even deserve a retest is because it supposedly doesn't add any value to the tier and not because you believe it is broken.
I also think this could have been quickdropped. Not everything listed is entirely foolproof, but there is a lot of potential counterplay that double/triple up on many teams such as Ferrothorn, MSciz, Lando-T, Zamazenta, Great Tusk (with investment), Melmetal, Kingambit (with Balloon), Alomomola, Toxapex, Clefable, Corviknight, Skarmory, Raging Bolt, Ting Lu, MTar, Dragonite, and Tapu Fini. It will only really get one opportunity, so forcing it out and expending Booster is generally sufficient when it comes to handling it. It's also quite vulnerable to priority such as Mlop/Mmedi fake out and dnite espeed.
In CGOU, Moon is used more as an early-game breaker instead of a sweeper. It always dents something, and often claims a KO if played right, but rarely ever does much else without Tera against a competent opponent. I do not think these are broken qualities, but I am aware there are gonna be people who want to be able to counter everything in the traditional sense, which I think is an unreasonable standard to hold something to in Gen 9.
The way you have to play against Moon is different from how you usually handle offensive threats, which is why I'm afraid those who are not used to CGOU (where it can Tera and pretty much none of the top players complain about it) are gonna be uncomfortable with it. It farms only those who do not know how to play against it, so it will likely feel broken for maybe the first few days when it is suspected, so I hope people are not so quick to judge.
Regarding Z-Moves, the issue with this mon when it comes to Z-Moves is how much weaker its Knock Off becomes and how telegraphed it is compared to other mons that can fit Z-Moves, which give you more room to find counterplay.
1. Part of the suspect reasoning was threat saturation and set variation, both of which are less applicable
2. Booster Energy sets are going to be significantly less potent without the ability to tera, which let it find more opportunities, break stuff and avoid revenge killing. For example, +1 Booster Tera Dragon Outrage OHKOed uninvested Great Tusk but this is not true without Tera.
3. Its 'broken' set Z-Dragon only fit on HO/Offense, a style which has had its viability not insignificantly reduced since the tera ban. Part of the issue was Goug coming in and creating holes in opposing things that enabled other teammates such as Dragonite and Kyurem, which is going to be less relevant.
4. Its hazard weakness will be easier to exploit given the presence of two highly viable spinblockers.
5. The drop of Zamazenta and Terapagos provide two mons that can reliably check/revenge it, and even exploit it as set-up fodder in the former case. It also has to run Jolly to outspeed Pult and Zama at +1 now.
1. A bulky regen water in either Alo, Bro or Pex is extremely common right now. Offense teams run Oger, Zama, and/or various Dragons.
2. It gives up a lot of momentum to set this guy up, so it is gonna be significantly less effective on momentum-based teams such as HO, and to an extent Rain.
3. It's vulnerable to all hazards and is vulnerable to recoil when clicking Wave Crash or from contact chip.
4. In general, if you can handle Urshifu and Ogerpon, you can handle most Palafin.
Band sets I do not think are going to be good, as they thud into any bulky water resist even with coverage as it does not generally OHKO and most water resists have passive recovery. In Rain, yeah, maybe the calcs look strong, but this is not a unique trait and instead common to most water-type rain abusers. And Rain is a heavily momentum based playstyle, so not only having to set up Pelipper, but also Palafin, is gonna hurt.
Main issue in my eyes is potential BU + Z-Fight or Z-Psychic sets but I think we have to evaluate that in practice as breaking past checks is not a unique quality for mons with a Z-Crystal.
- Probably not broken given the prevalence of Lando, Toxapex and defensive Gholdengo. More of an annoying mon if anything. Don't care much about this mon personally, so won't say too much.
Suspect but probably broken/community hates them too much
I may have forgotten about the others listed on the survey since you can't go back and check, but this is the gist of my thoughts.
This mon is nasty vs fat but much more tolerable vs anything else than before, largely due to Pult and Zama. I do not think we should ban a mon solely for its strength against slower playstyles if it's not to an extremely unreasonable degree such that no counterplay could possibly exist. We may see cores such as Alomomola + Zamazenta emerge, or potentially the rise of Hydrapple like in CG OU, let's just give it time.
Drops
Nothing is broken except potentially Dragapult, which I would probably vote DNB on right now. There is too much counterplay for the other drops for any of them to be broken. I could elaborate on counterplay to any individual mon if anyone wants, but if you genuinely believe any of the other drops are broken right now, it is unlikely you will be convinced. I hope people are able to distinguish top-tier mons from broken mons because a lot of complaints are essentially sticking the former with the latter label.
Suspects
Should probably have been quickdropped, mon is not only accounted for very easily by Pult checks you have to run on teams anyway, but also other bulky Steels such as Ferrothorn and MSciz. How much supposed value it adds to the tier shouldn't be relevant if it is neither broken nor sufficiently unhealthy. I know a lot of council members have uh... strong feelings about this mon, so I am curious if the survey results end up reflecting or subverting this.
As a side note, I find it a bit disappointing how some on the council are willing to retest Magearna but not even consider Espathra... when Magearna does the same Stored Power stuff but is actually good at it. I am not throwing shade but I do not think this discrepancy can be reasonably reconciled - if you think Espathra is broken, then you must also believe Magearna is. If you don't, please just admit that the only reason Espathra doesn't even deserve a retest is because it supposedly doesn't add any value to the tier and not because you believe it is broken.
I also think this could have been quickdropped. Not everything listed is entirely foolproof, but there is a lot of potential counterplay that double/triple up on many teams such as Ferrothorn, MSciz, Lando-T, Zamazenta, Great Tusk (with investment), Melmetal, Kingambit (with Balloon), Alomomola, Toxapex, Clefable, Corviknight, Skarmory, Raging Bolt, Ting Lu, MTar, Dragonite, and Tapu Fini. It will only really get one opportunity, so forcing it out and expending Booster is generally sufficient when it comes to handling it. It's also quite vulnerable to priority such as Mlop/Mmedi fake out and dnite espeed.
In CGOU, Moon is used more as an early-game breaker instead of a sweeper. It always dents something, and often claims a KO if played right, but rarely ever does much else without Tera against a competent opponent. I do not think these are broken qualities, but I am aware there are gonna be people who want to be able to counter everything in the traditional sense, which I think is an unreasonable standard to hold something to in Gen 9.
The way you have to play against Moon is different from how you usually handle offensive threats, which is why I'm afraid those who are not used to CGOU (where it can Tera and pretty much none of the top players complain about it) are gonna be uncomfortable with it. It farms only those who do not know how to play against it, so it will likely feel broken for maybe the first few days when it is suspected, so I hope people are not so quick to judge.
Regarding Z-Moves, the issue with this mon when it comes to Z-Moves is how much weaker its Knock Off becomes and how telegraphed it is compared to other mons that can fit Z-Moves, which give you more room to find counterplay.
1. Part of the suspect reasoning was threat saturation and set variation, both of which are less applicable
2. Booster Energy sets are going to be significantly less potent without the ability to tera, which let it find more opportunities, break stuff and avoid revenge killing. For example, +1 Booster Tera Dragon Outrage OHKOed uninvested Great Tusk but this is not true without Tera.
3. Its 'broken' set Z-Dragon only fit on HO/Offense, a style which has had its viability not insignificantly reduced since the tera ban. Part of the issue was Goug coming in and creating holes in opposing things that enabled other teammates such as Dragonite and Kyurem, which is going to be less relevant.
4. Its hazard weakness will be easier to exploit given the presence of two highly viable spinblockers.
5. The drop of Zamazenta and Terapagos provide two mons that can reliably check/revenge it, and even exploit it as set-up fodder in the former case. It also has to run Jolly to outspeed Pult and Zama at +1 now.
1. A bulky regen water in either Alo, Bro or Pex is extremely common right now. Offense teams run Oger, Zama, and/or various Dragons.
2. It gives up a lot of momentum to set this guy up, so it is gonna be significantly less effective on momentum-based teams such as HO, and to an extent Rain.
3. It's vulnerable to all hazards and is vulnerable to recoil when clicking Wave Crash or from contact chip.
4. In general, if you can handle Urshifu and Ogerpon, you can handle most Palafin.
Band sets I do not think are going to be good, as they thud into any bulky water resist even with coverage as it does not generally OHKO and most water resists have passive recovery. In Rain, yeah, maybe the calcs look strong, but this is not a unique trait and instead common to most water-type rain abusers. And Rain is a heavily momentum based playstyle, so not only having to set up Pelipper, but also Palafin, is gonna hurt.
Main issue in my eyes is potential BU + Z-Fight or Z-Psychic sets but I think we have to evaluate that in practice as breaking past checks is not a unique quality for mons with a Z-Crystal.
- Probably not broken given the prevalence of Lando, Toxapex and defensive Gholdengo. More of an annoying mon if anything. Don't care much about this mon personally, so won't say too much.Suspect but probably broken/community hates them too much
I may have forgotten about the others listed on the survey since you can't go back and check, but this is the gist of my thoughts.
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I voted 4 for Palafin, Deoxys-S and Darkrai, and 5 for Roaring Moon
With the addition of new checks like Ogerpon-H and the absence of Tera, but especially the development of the meta, I think Palafin will be much more manageable than at the beginning.
Deoxys-S deserves to be tried. I am well aware that in SV OU he has neither Magic Coat nor Z move, but without Tera, I think the power creep has the potential to finally make him fine.
Roaring Moon also deserves a chance.
I put 5 for Espathra and 3 for Anihilape. Without Tera to change type and gain additional boosts, and without Tera Blast Fight, it will be harder for Espathra to gain more boosts. You always have to be wary, but he should at least be tried without Tera.
Rage Fist may make Anihilape always frustrating to face but, in the absence of Tera, it's worth seeing what he's really worth.
Magearna is a no.
Not too convinced for Sneasler, but without Tera and with Gholdengo in the tier, why not in the future.
With the addition of new checks like Ogerpon-H and the absence of Tera, but especially the development of the meta, I think Palafin will be much more manageable than at the beginning.
Deoxys-S deserves to be tried. I am well aware that in SV OU he has neither Magic Coat nor Z move, but without Tera, I think the power creep has the potential to finally make him fine.
Roaring Moon also deserves a chance.
I put 5 for Espathra and 3 for Anihilape. Without Tera to change type and gain additional boosts, and without Tera Blast Fight, it will be harder for Espathra to gain more boosts. You always have to be wary, but he should at least be tried without Tera.
Rage Fist may make Anihilape always frustrating to face but, in the absence of Tera, it's worth seeing what he's really worth.
Magearna is a no.
Not too convinced for Sneasler, but without Tera and with Gholdengo in the tier, why not in the future.
"Do you remember gen 5" Yea POlitoed was Top Tier, Latios dominated and Alakazam was meta relevant. overall bad argument.
Sneasler is a big big fuck you in KokoScreens , living hits it shouldn't while hahahahah what a funny move dire claw is Might I remember everyone that Sneasler got access to throat chop in DLC2, effectively negating Gholdengo's status as a check unless you like physdef and/or rolls.
Magearna might not be the stored power sweeper we once knew, but do you really crve Baby zacian? it won't bring nything interesting exept a... Ice beam the lando volt switch the melme mon? idk this js sounds weird and unnecessary. oh and no one ever should underestimate the utility of encore on a setup sweeper. Nah this is js another Kokoscreens material. Listen , I'm all for more HO but eh there is such thing as too much HO. No, Tera wasn't "too much HO" bc HO was fairly easily counterable. nox they'll have more options, NP Z Deo, Dd Moon, DD Gougin, CM encore magerana, cm Espathra with electric seed (it's better on sscreens anyways), BU Taunt Palafin, this is js going to be chaos all over again because of overhyping or sum.
BUT
as the meta is obviously undegoing many changes, i would ask the people to list me all the problems there would be if we Unbanned Arena trap.
I don’t know if 
is too much. It is, in my opinion, dancing around the line of too much. Its specs and dd sets don’t feel as powerful as they used to but they are still potent enough. With the pursuit meta going on now, I don’t think it requires immediate action. They are something to prep for, but not unreasonable. Preping for eating a strong shadow ball also applies to gholdengo and its dd set should be something a good tram can deal with without any particular prep. It does not quite have the attacking stats to back its brilliant speed.
I will however mention the status pivot set. We know it can burn pursuit trappers (berry kingambit anyone?) but it can do sooo much more. I would even argue for twave over willowisp, or twave over darts and hex as its single attacking move. Spreading status is something most offensive and balancy teams don’t have access to without, or have unreliable methods of doing it (flame body, static, scald). I see this set more as a skill rewarding tool to glue teams together due to its good offensive presence, great pivoting and quite unique threat neutralisation ability. Its multitude of interactions with kingambit, gholdengo, zamazenta, and melmetal are reasonable and reward set scouting and threat prioritisation for both sides.
is too much. It is, in my opinion, dancing around the line of too much. Its specs and dd sets don’t feel as powerful as they used to but they are still potent enough. With the pursuit meta going on now, I don’t think it requires immediate action. They are something to prep for, but not unreasonable. Preping for eating a strong shadow ball also applies to gholdengo and its dd set should be something a good tram can deal with without any particular prep. It does not quite have the attacking stats to back its brilliant speed. I will however mention the status pivot set. We know it can burn pursuit trappers (berry kingambit anyone?) but it can do sooo much more. I would even argue for twave over willowisp, or twave over darts and hex as its single attacking move. Spreading status is something most offensive and balancy teams don’t have access to without, or have unreliable methods of doing it (flame body, static, scald). I see this set more as a skill rewarding tool to glue teams together due to its good offensive presence, great pivoting and quite unique threat neutralisation ability. Its multitude of interactions with kingambit, gholdengo, zamazenta, and melmetal are reasonable and reward set scouting and threat prioritisation for both sides.
adding to the survey talk that's been going around, mainly potential drops because my thoughts on the current mons in the tier are not much different from others at the moment
No one wants to give a real thought on Magearna so I'll share mine.
On one hand it has an undeniably rich defensive profile that could make it a worthwhile addition to the tier. Its Fairy-Steel typing is nothing short of elite, blessed with a magnitude of resists and immunities and merely 2 weaknesses, which lets it defensively check many of the strongest pokemon in the tier. Its movepool also contains many valuable tools, such as Spikes, Volt Switch, Thunder Wave, Trick Encore and even Trick Room, allowing the user to customize their Magearna based on the teams needs very well. While the defensive sets could be somewhat unpredictable, i think they could be very interesting.
On the other hand, its offensive sets will likely still be extremely frustrating to play against even without the help of Tera. Its slow speed can easily be patched up with Shift Gear and its tremendously powerful Fleur Cannon can be further boosted by Z, negating the spatk drop, increasing its power even further and giving Magearna a +1 boost after it deletes its target thanks to Soul Heart. Worst of all it doesn't even need to use Z-move; Shuca, Weakness Policy and Leftovers are all on the table for this Pokemon, further constraining counterplay. The aforementioned strong defensive profile makes these offensive sets even more difficult to deal with, since the typing and defensive stats make revenge killing very difficult for many teams. The only silver lining is that it has pretty big 4MSS, but thats only 1 downside within a myriad of insanely strong traits.
Unfortunately, while in my opinion the defensive prowess this pokemon offers could be very valuable, its devastating offensive sets would more than likely make it way too broken for the tier, but it might be worth suspecting even for the tiniest chance that the tier somehow manages to deal with them, since its defensive sets would be quite great for the tier in my opinion.
On one hand it has an undeniably rich defensive profile that could make it a worthwhile addition to the tier. Its Fairy-Steel typing is nothing short of elite, blessed with a magnitude of resists and immunities and merely 2 weaknesses, which lets it defensively check many of the strongest pokemon in the tier. Its movepool also contains many valuable tools, such as Spikes, Volt Switch, Thunder Wave, Trick Encore and even Trick Room, allowing the user to customize their Magearna based on the teams needs very well. While the defensive sets could be somewhat unpredictable, i think they could be very interesting.
On the other hand, its offensive sets will likely still be extremely frustrating to play against even without the help of Tera. Its slow speed can easily be patched up with Shift Gear and its tremendously powerful Fleur Cannon can be further boosted by Z, negating the spatk drop, increasing its power even further and giving Magearna a +1 boost after it deletes its target thanks to Soul Heart. Worst of all it doesn't even need to use Z-move; Shuca, Weakness Policy and Leftovers are all on the table for this Pokemon, further constraining counterplay. The aforementioned strong defensive profile makes these offensive sets even more difficult to deal with, since the typing and defensive stats make revenge killing very difficult for many teams. The only silver lining is that it has pretty big 4MSS, but thats only 1 downside within a myriad of insanely strong traits.
Unfortunately, while in my opinion the defensive prowess this pokemon offers could be very valuable, its devastating offensive sets would more than likely make it way too broken for the tier, but it might be worth suspecting even for the tiniest chance that the tier somehow manages to deal with them, since its defensive sets would be quite great for the tier in my opinion.
Deoxys-Speed could also be given a shot in my opinion.
Lead sets on HO would be great, separating itself from other hazard HO leads like Glimmora and Landorus-Therian with its access to Magic Coat and an Unparalleled speed tier paired with Taunt ensuring that it will almost always be able to taunt anything in-front of it. Offensive Mixed Life Orb sets would also be decent, using its excellent coverage and speed to its full potential. Psychic Terrain with Expanding Force might be very annoying to play against, since Expanding Force is extremely strong even with its lackluster Special Attack, and its Dark Type checks get Focus Blasted while they cannot Sucker Punch Deo since its under PsyTerrain.
The set that might break it is the Psychium-Z Nasty Plot sets, which turn its Psycho Boost into a nuclear 200bp move. Sucker Punch could potentially be countered by Substitute, followed by a Focus Blast to dispatch said Sucker Punch user. Ice Beam and Dark Pulse are other strong options that could be used. Modest nature can be comfortably used on this set too as you still outspeed some slower scarfers like Samurott-Hisui, albeit at the cost of being outsped by Scarf Lele.
Overall, I think its worth testing, since it does possess a number of unique traits that other Pokemon do not provide, though the odds of it being broken are not insignificant.
Lead sets on HO would be great, separating itself from other hazard HO leads like Glimmora and Landorus-Therian with its access to Magic Coat and an Unparalleled speed tier paired with Taunt ensuring that it will almost always be able to taunt anything in-front of it. Offensive Mixed Life Orb sets would also be decent, using its excellent coverage and speed to its full potential. Psychic Terrain with Expanding Force might be very annoying to play against, since Expanding Force is extremely strong even with its lackluster Special Attack, and its Dark Type checks get Focus Blasted while they cannot Sucker Punch Deo since its under PsyTerrain.
The set that might break it is the Psychium-Z Nasty Plot sets, which turn its Psycho Boost into a nuclear 200bp move. Sucker Punch could potentially be countered by Substitute, followed by a Focus Blast to dispatch said Sucker Punch user. Ice Beam and Dark Pulse are other strong options that could be used. Modest nature can be comfortably used on this set too as you still outspeed some slower scarfers like Samurott-Hisui, albeit at the cost of being outsped by Scarf Lele.
Overall, I think its worth testing, since it does possess a number of unique traits that other Pokemon do not provide, though the odds of it being broken are not insignificant.
Yes, Dragapult's utility set is great for balanced teams, acting as reliable speed control, a soft check to Ogerpon-W, Raging Bolt, charizard y and Zamazenta, , can counterplay sub and veil strategies, and is able to play around it's many checks with Wisp and U-turn, all while lacking the uncompetitive rng elements zapdos or Moltres have. Banning it would be horrible for balance, as they will lose a valuable speed control option and soft check to many of the dangerous threats in the metagame.I don’t know if
I will however mention the status pivot set. We know it can burn pursuit trappers (berry kingambit anyone?) but it can do sooo much more. I would even argue for twave over willowisp, or twave over darts and hex as its single attacking move. Spreading status is something most offensive and balancy teams don’t have access to without, or have unreliable methods of doing it (flame body, static, scald). I see this set more as a skill rewarding tool to glue teams together due to its good offensive presence, great pivoting and quite unique threat neutralisation ability. Its multitude of interactions with kingambit, gholdengo, zamazenta, and melmetal are reasonable and reward set scouting and threat prioritisation for both sides.
The thing about setup mag is that it is very easily cucked by many pokemon, especially itself. Encore mag shuts down setup mag hard, as do others like Encore Victini, Gholdengo, Skeledirge. Moltres, Toxapex, and more. That typing and utility that Magearna has is something the tier needs rn.adding to the survey talk that's been going around, mainly potential drops because my thoughts on the current mons in the tier are not much different from others at the moment
No one wants to give a real thought on Magearna so I'll share mine.
On one hand it has an undeniably rich defensive profile that could make it a worthwhile addition to the tier. Its Fairy-Steel typing is nothing short of elite, blessed with a magnitude of resists and immunities and merely 2 weaknesses, which lets it defensively check many of the strongest pokemon in the tier. Its movepool also contains many valuable tools, such as Spikes, Volt Switch, Thunder Wave, Trick Encore and even Trick Room, allowing the user to customize their Magearna based on the teams needs very well. While the defensive sets could be somewhat unpredictable, i think they could be very interesting.
On the other hand, its offensive sets will likely still be extremely frustrating to play against even without the help of Tera. Its slow speed can easily be patched up with Shift Gear and its tremendously powerful Fleur Cannon can be further boosted by Z, negating the spatk drop, increasing its power even further and giving Magearna a +1 boost after it deletes its target thanks to Soul Heart. Worst of all it doesn't even need to use Z-move; Shuca, Weakness Policy and Leftovers are all on the table for this Pokemon, further constraining counterplay. The aforementioned strong defensive profile makes these offensive sets even more difficult to deal with, since the typing and defensive stats make revenge killing very difficult for many teams. The only silver lining is that it has pretty big 4MSS, but thats only 1 downside within a myriad of insanely strong traits.
Unfortunately, while in my opinion the defensive prowess this pokemon offers could be very valuable, its devastating offensive sets would more than likely make it way too broken for the tier, but it might be worth suspecting even for the tiniest chance that the tier somehow manages to deal with them, since its defensive sets would be quite great for the tier in my opinion.
Deoxys-Speed could also be given a shot in my opinion.
Lead sets on HO would be great, separating itself from other hazard HO leads like Glimmora and Landorus-Therian with its access to Magic Coat and an Unparalleled speed tier paired with Taunt ensuring that it will almost always be able to taunt anything in-front of it. Offensive Mixed Life Orb sets would also be decent, using its excellent coverage and speed to its full potential. Psychic Terrain with Expanding Force might be very annoying to play against, since Expanding Force is extremely strong even with its lackluster Special Attack, and its Dark Type checks get Focus Blasted while they cannot Sucker Punch Deo since its under PsyTerrain.
The set that might break it is the Psychium-Z Nasty Plot sets, which turn its Psycho Boost into a nuclear 200bp move. Sucker Punch could potentially be countered by Substitute, followed by a Focus Blast to dispatch said Sucker Punch user. Ice Beam and Dark Pulse are other strong options that could be used. Modest nature can be comfortably used on this set too as you still outspeed some slower scarfers like Samurott-Hisui, albeit at the cost of being outsped by Scarf Lele.
Overall, I think its worth testing, since it does possess a number of unique traits that other Pokemon do not provide, though the odds of it being broken are not insignificant.
I won’t talk about the pokemon on the survey because there are plenty of others doing that already and I really don’t care too much. I’d also like to say that until we know for sure wether or not Dragapult will stay in the tier, any tiering action is irrelevant to me. I say this because I believe the meta will end up heavily revolving around Dragapult if it is not already. I’m not sure what I’d actually vote right now but the point I am making is that Dragapult has a lot of influence in building that could make it difficult for other pokemon to co-exist in the tier due to the restrictions built in already like ground/flying types being mandatory on every team as well as accounting for individual threats. The point of this post is to offer fair justification of a Lugia suspect at some point in the future. I can’t accurately give a time frame partly due to the reasons given above and also the fact that the meta is not in a stable enough state to warrant a clear prediction of what we can expect in the coming months (namely yard/gambit and shed stall being everywhere on ladder, will this trend continue to rise in popularity).
Lugia should be suspected at some point. It isn’t clear to me if Lugia broken or unhealthy but if it was then it would not be in a 6-0s your entire team type of way. The issue with Lugia is plainly because of its bulk. I think the argument that Lugia is unkillable is misguided by theoretical calcs that don’t portray realistic outcomes. I don’t find it productive to engage in hypothetical in-game scenarios unless you are extracting examples from actual games. My proposal is a forum tour with Lugia unbanned at the appropriate timeframe so we don’t overlap with other big tours or confuse with ongoing suspects.
Misguided calcs in question
+2 252 Atk Quark Drive Iron Valiant Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Lugia: 147-174 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Lugia: 373-439 (89.6 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia in Sun: 108-128 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+6 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 364-430 (87.5 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Okay okay obviously these calcs are pretty ridiculous and I’d be lying if I said they weren’t. I assumed 252hp/252speed as standard spread but I am not eliminating the possibility of alternative spreads. So what is my issue with these calcs and why do I claim they are misguided? Multiscale is not good. This ability is completely dependent on staying at full health which faulters against any form of chip like status, sand or anything that can deal damage. Possibly a larger factor as to why Pressure would be preferred over Multiscale is the limited amount of Roost PP. If you want to get value out of Multiscale that requires you to stay healthy and if you rely on it to wall things then you are forced to spam Roost. Pair this with the fact that you are extremely passive and can’t touch most of these pokemon back and you will discover that Lugia is nothing more than a wall. It will sit there and get chipped away until it crumbles when the last Roost has been expended. Pressure is not for anything specific, just a strong ability in general with some useful interactions.
This post is unorganized but I know it will gain traction because everyone is either with it or against it. If we are planning to suspect pokemon like Palafin and Magearna then Lugia is not such a long shot. Lugia does 1 thing exceptionally well and would be a great glue on defensive cores that would help check this tiers unlimited amount of threats. Bring on the Koffings you losers!
- thebestever543
So you could say Lugia could be a "Gluegia" to certain team structures?
I won’t talk about the pokemon on the survey because there are plenty of others doing that already and I really don’t care too much. I’d also like to say that until we know for sure wether or not Dragapult will stay in the tier, any tiering action is irrelevant to me. I say this because I believe the meta will end up heavily revolving around Dragapult if it is not already. I’m not sure what I’d actually vote right now but the point I am making is that Dragapult has a lot of influence in building that could make it difficult for other pokemon to co-exist in the tier due to the restrictions built in already like ground/flying types being mandatory on every team as well as accounting for individual threats. The point of this post is to offer fair justification of a Lugia suspect at some point in the future. I can’t accurately give a time frame partly due to the reasons given above and also the fact that the meta is not in a stable enough state to warrant a clear prediction of what we can expect in the coming months (namely yard/gambit and shed stall being everywhere on ladder, will this trend continue to rise in popularity).
Lugia should be suspected at some point. It isn’t clear to me if Lugia broken or unhealthy but if it was then it would not be in a 6-0s your entire team type of way. The issue with Lugia is plainly because of its bulk. I think the argument that Lugia is unkillable is misguided by theoretical calcs that don’t portray realistic outcomes. I don’t find it productive to engage in hypothetical in-game scenarios unless you are extracting examples from actual games. My proposal is a forum tour with Lugia unbanned at the appropriate timeframe so we don’t overlap with other big tours or confuse with ongoing suspects.
Misguided calcs in question
+2 252 Atk Quark Drive Iron Valiant Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Lugia: 147-174 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Lugia: 373-439 (89.6 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia in Sun: 108-128 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+6 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 364-430 (87.5 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Okay okay obviously these calcs are pretty ridiculous and I’d be lying if I said they weren’t. I assumed 252hp/252speed as standard spread but I am not eliminating the possibility of alternative spreads. So what is my issue with these calcs and why do I claim they are misguided? Multiscale is not good. This ability is completely dependent on staying at full health which faulters against any form of chip like status, sand or anything that can deal damage. Possibly a larger factor as to why Pressure would be preferred over Multiscale is the limited amount of Roost PP. If you want to get value out of Multiscale that requires you to stay healthy and if you rely on it to wall things then you are forced to spam Roost. Pair this with the fact that you are extremely passive and can’t touch most of these pokemon back and you will discover that Lugia is nothing more than a wall. It will sit there and get chipped away until it crumbles when the last Roost has been expended. Pressure is not for anything specific, just a strong ability in general with some useful interactions.
This post is unorganized but I know it will gain traction because everyone is either with it or against it. If we are planning to suspect pokemon like Palafin and Magearna then Lugia is not such a long shot. Lugia does 1 thing exceptionally well and would be a great glue on defensive cores that would help check this tiers unlimited amount of threats. Bring on the Koffings you losers!
- thebestever543
As for the Dragapult thing...dude I actually don't know. General sentiment leans that it's fine. I'm in the middle. Maybe if we had more than a week of data we can say more? I still get the feeling we're in Teraless's first impressions, so i'd rather not go crazy with suspects atm. If anything, i'd rather chill a bit, then get a survey on the consensus of these goobers before we do anything around NDOU's current roster, but that's just my two cents
Maybe I am a bit closed minded about this mon... I'm gonna try to come up with a list of possible Magearna counterplay (yeah I've had a lot of free time recently lol):
Set-up with SP
If not fighting coverage:
(unless AV)
If not IDef:
(I think this loses to IDef?) (unless TWave)Should always win unless rocks/screens/chip etc:
(Encore/Heart Swap)
(Scalds and stalls out with Haze)
Questionable:
(Does this win 1v1 with NP?)
(Only SP 1v1s, and viability is ???)
(Viability is ???)There's definitely more various stuff that can 1v1 Magearna if they are healthy such as Lando-T or Ogerpon-W. You can beat with phazing, taunt or encore, but I feel like a lot of these mons lose if screens are up...
I think this set is gonna suck without screens support but with screens it might be broken idk tho
Set-up without SP
It can beat everything previously mentioned with either Electrium, Fairium or Fightinium, here is what should almost always beat it?
(Encore/Heart Swap/AV Iron Head)
(If not Psyshock) (Idk)Issue with this set is the Z can potentially be baited, and you will probably lose to something without with right Z. It's also probably gonna be SG + 3 atks unless you are running Fairium, so Screens support probably not too relevant here. I think it's also worth noting that Z Magearna's checks are a lot better at checking stuff this gen compared to gen 7 due to HDB. Idk, might be broken if too difficult to revenge.
Specs
Almost everything here can potentially get tricked or volted on, but it's more of a long-term breaker
(not long term) (If not Psyshock)
Mag partially got banned for its Specs set last gen but I am less confident it would be broken this time around. Breakers that win the long game vs slower teams such as NP Z Torn-T tend to be worse in a faster paced gen like this, and I think Specs Magearna would fall into this category. I also think Specs Val does pretty much the same thing but better, with similar coverage, a stab that doesn't give up momentum when used, and a significantly better speed tier. In exchange it loses Volt Switch, a better defensive typing, and a 130 BP Stab. We'll have to see in practice whether they balance out.
Putting aside that you earlier implied that you may not consider Genesect an unholy abomination, I’ll address Arena Trap.
1.) Trapping is uncompetitive and would warp the tier to an extreme with HO and Stall Teams alike that become either impossible to stop or completely unkillable thanks to Dugtrio. No counter play.
2.) Dugtrio would make so many of the best Pokemon and sets a liability and force you to run shed shell, a worse item in all other situations.
3.) It would greatly reduce the amount of viable Pokemon in the tier which is not something we want.
With the potential suspects now completely in the public, I'd like to express my thoughts on each candidate and what I would vote for. My opinions haven't changed too much compared to the original council slate where I voted on all of these Pokemon, but no harm with diving into detail on why I did so. A lot of these are of course hypotheticals but I'm afraid that's just how things are going to be until they really come down here.
When it comes to the metagame currently, I'm very content with it. Voted a 9 on both enjoyability and stability and hoping that things can remain as good as they are. Very refreshing to play a good metagame after dealing with Tera for two years straight, good work y'all! Might give my thoughts on everything else in a later post or a YouTube video.
I voted a 4 on Magearna on the survey and to unban it outright on the slate. Without a doubt Magearna in any OU-based tier is going to be a top-tier and defining force; not to mention its set variety and the effectiveness of them, leading a lot of people astray from it. However, I think Magearna is worthy of a suspect at the most for its attributes, and while they may be a little ridiculous at times, its typing and utility give it a good use in the tier to help fend off Pokemon like Dragapult, Tapu Lele, and Raging Bolt, can ease teambuilding to a point that isn't unhealthy that can lead to more comfortability in the builder, along with being a handleable Pokemon when it comes to what sets it could possibly use as well. Defensive Spikes sets are something that doesn't break Magearna at all and if anything it's the set that is the most tolerable to check and play around. The massive amount of progress it can make does mean accounting for it will require a little brainpower, but a standard Fleur Cannon/Volt Switch/Spikes/Encore or Thunder Wave is something that is naturally prepared for by most teams I see in this metagame, such as using Gholdengo, Iron Crown, and Melmetal to both defensively and offensively pressure it, the fact that Magearna is likely going to take a Knock Off as it can often come in on users like Samurott-Hisui or Iron Valiant to scout and then be prone to hazard damage, Volt Switch being blocked by Ground-types (albeit none of them except Iron Treads would comfortably want to come into it straight up.), and with the general amount of offensive pressure this metagame has defensive Magearna, and mostly Magearna overall can be dealt with in a somewhat tolerable way. Choice Specs can invalidate the Steel-types it dislikes so much like Melmetal and Ferrothorn by hitting them with a hefty Focus Blast and can Trick most of its checks to open up other teammates to wreak havoc, but to me it feels like something you just have to be dilligent about during a game, when it comes to in the builder I feel like the aforementioned methods can work fine but of course defensively you're going to not like the Fleur Cannons that can still do a lot or it clicking Volt Switch and getting a surprising amount of chip on your check. Stored Power and other set-up versions of Magearna are something that should be treated like any other set up sweeper, the coverage and power it has can be concerning but the opportunities it can get to set up aren't too often since the metagame has so much Steel-types to already check that Magearna is just slotted in as something to heavily be wary of. Fairium Z + Calm Mind sounds like the best set to use on non-Stored Power sets and honestly I can see it being annoying, and Stored Power is going to be like dealing with a Stored Power Iron Crown in Tera meta but more aggravating to take down since the better defensive typing and Draining Kiss. However, some things can be left unsaid about Magearna's bad side on how it manages to be effective and variable all in one and never fall short at any role it does, often being a little too good to deal with. What I would is likely Do not unban, but I'd like to experiment with it as I am not too far from the fence of unban and even voted for it to be immediately dropped at first.
I voted a 4 on Palafin on the survey and to unban it outright on the slate. Truthfully this Pokemon can just be compared to Urshifu-R as they literally function the same way with Palafin being a superior Choice Band user and as such having a larger damage output range than the common Choice Scarf or Swords Dance Urshifu-R. And honestly, it isn't a completely good thing. The metagame already having to deal with both Ogerpon-Wellspring and Urshifu-R as threatening physical Water-type breakers is likely good enough to leave be, and Palafin adding onto that while having the most immediate strength of the three may be unwise. However, it doesn't mean that it's uncheckable as with a limited but strong pool of Water-types we've dealt with for some time we have plenty of good resists and counterplay options for each of them. I'd imagine most ways of dealing with Urshifu-R can be applied such as Alomomola, Toxapex, Mega Lati@s, Slowbro, Hydrapple, and Tangrowth for defensive stopgaps with Raging Bolt, Dragonite, and Ogerpon-W playing both sides of defensively and offensively dealng with it, or Dragapult and Tapu Koko for more aggressive offensive pressure. The tragic part though is that an Adamant Choice Band can invalidate half of this list, which does lead to some concerning issues on how it would be dealt with in play, as Palafin is much easier to check in builder than during a game. For now, I will probably vote Do not unban as it seems a little bit overtuned and causes some oversaturation of Water-type threats, but I'm fine with it being tested down. Big chance it will just be a Urshifu-R on steroids though.
I voted a 1 on Darkrai on the survey and to suspect it on the slate. Truthfully, I wish I just voted to keep it Ubers because I don't think you can defend this thing being acceptable to test down in a metagame where most common forms counterplay to it, that being a defensive Tera, is now not an option meaning that Darkinium and Fightinium Z can just obliterate everything. Zamazenta coming back down checking most Dark-types along with Kingambit to add to that list seems plenty enough, and I don't think I want to drop one that can both immediately threaten it or cripple it with relative ease. It has always been a phenomenal wallbreaker that was given a chance based on a different environment compared to last generation, I think we don't need to give it a second one when it was banned with a pretty solid majority in its past suspect and was always clamored about even when it was legal. Having something to hit the Ghost-types is something nice it can do I guess? Otherwise it just rip and tears through a lot of builds and I don't think you can even use skill to beat it either as often times it'll blow you up if you'd even like to try. Would vote Do not unban if it is suspected, hopefully it doesn't...
I voted a 5 on Roaring Moon on the survey and to unban it outright on the slate. This is the most balanced option out of all of the other candidates and I am very strong about releasing it back into the tier. What made it unbalanced with Tera Flying or Tera Steel or any other Tera you could name is now not an option, making it a great offense Pokemon that is able to be feasibly checked and giving more teams options for a decent Speed control and strong Pokemon along with it's Fire-, Water-, and Ghost-type resistance against Mega Charizard Y and Gholdengo. The aforementioned feasible ways to check it are also a well sized pool of options to deal with that don't cause any constraint on the builder as it shares checks with most other physical wallbreakers in this metagame, but most notably Kingambit. Current OU options like Alomomola, Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, Kingambit, Landorus-T, Melmetal, Mega Scizor, Mega Tyranitar, and Zamazenta are all very sufficient ways of dealing with it reliably, and when it comes to offensive counterplay I believe that can be unsaid as Roaring Moon's physical bulk and even its typing against most of the metagame isn't so sharp and can cause some issues for it when it comes to positioning and whatnot, but of course Dragon Dance should beat most of them. Choice Band is not broken at all and Booster Energy + Acrobatics is now actually tolerable now since you can't Tera and boost your Acrobatics to the max and actually have a harder time sweeping once forced out. Dragonium Z + Dragon Dance is what I imagine would be its best set and will help it break through its checks like Zamazenta and Great Tusk very well, but not to the point where it's unhealthy. This is the most easiest Unban for me out of all of the other options, and when it suspected I urge you all to vote Unban as well; Roaring Moon is worth it!
I voted a 1 on Gouging Fire on the survey and to keep it in Ubers on the slate. Much like Darkrai, I don't see how Tera being banned or the metagame being different can justify it being unbanned. Dragonium Z + Dragon Dance was the main culprit and most outs to it were either having to sacrifice your check as fodder to it since its bulk is amazing and then be promptly blown up, or to Tera on one of its attacks...don't think I want to continue being a broken record here but Tera being gone really just worsens the problem with Gouging Fire to me. Zamazenta returning to have an offensive threat that is arguably more obnoxious than anything else it currently has to deal with is pretty upsetting along with how it ruins most defensive counterplay to things in the tier. Booster Energy and bulky Dragon Dance sets are not pressing but they're definitely not worth using as reasoning to drop it down. Gouging Fire will just do what it's done in the past; that being a fat and metagame defying set-up sweeper, and for that I'm voting Do not unban.
I voted a 1 on Sneasler on the survey and to keep it in Ubers on the slate. With all due respect I don't think Sneasler was deserving of an outcome of suspect on the slate or to even be brought up here, all it's going to be is a RNG-focused cheeser that saturates the offensive threats in the metagame by itself to the point where it's a little obnoxious. Landorus-Therian now reliably walling it but having a very likely chance to be ruined by Dire Claw is sad, and Gholdengo coming down being the super savior, and likely the only good reliable one to it doesn't sit too well with me. While Sneasler can feel pressured to use Throat Chop and do worse into Pokemon like Tapu Koko and Clefable that isn't enough solid justification for it to be legal again in my eyes. I don't see how you can bring up more than ten Pokemon that are all consistent or even feasible checks to Sneasler; Dire Claw is too variable, it is incredibly strong with Swords Dance + Acrobatics, and all it'll do is cause problems we don't need in the metagame right now. Will be voting Do not unban if it's suspected.
I voted a 4 on Deoxys-S on the survey and to unban it outright on the slate. Out of all of the Pokemon on this list barring Palafin, Deoxys-S hasn't been looked at once more for almost two years and its attributes don't seem so pressing to the point where it doesn't deserve another one. Lead Deoxys-S is something I've seen brought up as the main reason not to drop it and honestly I can't completely see why. Without a doubt its an excellent lead but I am unsure if it will be to the point where HO rules the metagame and it is the number one culprit of causing that issue; standard Stealth Rock/Spikes/Psycho Boost/Taunt or Magic Coat will be effective but in a metagame like National Dex where hazard control is more effective and there are generally more way to punish offensive threats and leads like Deoxys-S with priority or just general muscle power saying that it'd ruin or taint the metagame seems like a stretch. What is more controversial though is Nasty Plot + Fightinium Z sets that have the potential to sadly break through most checks that you'd imagine would be good into it or trade with it like Mega Scizor, Assault Vest Melmetal and Ting-Lu, along with having coverage in Shadow Ball to deal with other forms of counterplay once boosted like Gholdengo and Tapu Lele. It's the most questionable set that it can run and the opportunity cost of using up the Z move in general is offset since there's usually a dedicated check to most Psychic-types on teams that Deoxys-S can break through. It's an incredible wallbreaker and the reason on why someone would want to keep it banned; I think that lead and other miscellaneous sets like lead, Heavy-Duty Boots, or Life Orb are balanced though. Quite torn on it but I really would like to experiment with it in the metagame, out of the others I voted 4 on I'd probably want this suspected first but unless Fightinium Z isn't as pressing in practice, I'd vote Do not unban. If there's some weird reality where Magearna is unbanned I'd probably vote Unban on this too...
Lumping these two together as I don't have much to say other than I hope they do not come back down and that they were not on the slate for a reason. All Espathra will do is Stored Power cheese even with having more pressure on getting a sweep due to the reliability of its checks now without Tera Blast or defensive Tera, but even then can you see it being unbanned and it being a respected and valued piece of the metagame? A Pokemon that doesn't require much thought from the user to get going as its admittedly quite easy to start stockpiling boosts and position it well to do so effectively and being just a nuisance to deal with doesn't correlate to it being a worthy suspect candidate. A lot of the logic being used for it isn't strong and can be stretched to apply to some other unfavorable Pokemon...no need to horse around with it. Annihilape punishes you for playing the game as Rage Fist is conceptually just an absurd move that Annihilape utilizes to concerning success. With more consistent revenge killing options for it now without Tera I can somewhat see why to let it back down, but at the end of the day it'll be getting boosts, tanking hits with its surprisingly good bulk, and just blanking everything with Rage Fist unfortunately. It's just an extremely punishing Pokemon that will also cause problems in this metagame that we truthfully don't need to deal with. Overall, I think I'd like to not dedicate suspects to either one, voted a 1 on both of them on the survey and hope we can focus on the Pokemon that were actually on the slate.
When it comes to the metagame currently, I'm very content with it. Voted a 9 on both enjoyability and stability and hoping that things can remain as good as they are. Very refreshing to play a good metagame after dealing with Tera for two years straight, good work y'all! Might give my thoughts on everything else in a later post or a YouTube video.
I think you're way underrating how hard it is to deal with this. Part of the problem is that Magearna already has special Moxie and it's going to get boosts the longer the sweep attempt goes on. With a lot of offensive sweepers that get a boost, the gameplan can be use mon 1 to weaken it and mon 2 to fully take it down, hopefully with your team still in a position to win because you played around this possibility the whole game. This is often Pokemon like Lando T or other Stopgap checks that are used for this.
Magearna SP can basically pick and choose its counters, but any core set is actually already just at good as sweeping with double-dance (it's just which double dance you wanna try), and on that note using several mons to try to deal with this mon is just not gonna work most of the time. And that's bad, because this Pokemon is simply almost always going to take two mons to be taken down- like it's honestly that simple, its bulk, typing, stats and the mons in the game + X Factors such as Z moves, its good movepool for offensive options, the fact that you don't even know what Magearna set it is every time, the chance of you guessing wrong / just not having the mon at the right HP for one specific set to not lose to it is such a narrow margin of error to not lose, not helped by the fact that a lot of the checks you mentioned getting blown up;
well. that's literally it. Ground types don't wanna switch in, Lando T is getting hit and instantly killed and is in fact feeding into its sweep, Iron Treads is best as a suicide lead, Excadrill is ass, Heatran can get cooked by Z Move sets, Gholdengo is ALSO owned by Z sets, etc. etc.
I don't see why this is not the forefront part of your analysis since Specs and Stored Power are the only controversial sets period, utility sets are the ones people want in the game, from what I've seen.
I'm not convinced at all that Magearna will not just cheese its way through the meta again.
Just hit the survey, my thoughts:
Enjoyment and Balance got a solid 8 on both for me, I can't quite put into words how better things got since the funny match-up flipper/Multi Stabs button was banned.
All the unmanned monsters except Pult are ok to me. All of them are balanced and I say make the tier better. Meanwhile about bans not, we should wait some more and test around to see if they still are as dominant I think it's still to early for a suspect on those mons.
Now about drops. Ape and Espartha are the obvious ones, now that both of them can't Tera out their issues they are way more manageable, especially Espartha since mono Psychic is kinda shitty in a Gambit/Dhengo meta and Ape's typing leaves it open to way too many threats, like Ghost/Fighting is great offensively but shitty defensively, any good team will naturally have at the very least one decent way to pressure it.
For possible suspects I gave a yes for Moon and Gouging, a maybe for Sneasler, Deo-S and Darkrai and flat no to Mage and Fin. The Dragons were too dependent of Tera in my opinion, allowing to came out of their exploitable types and gain free turns allowing a easy sweep, Sneasler is a better Lucha but Poison/Fighting is easier to exploit than Flying/Fighting but it's still a stronger Lucha and Dire Claw shenanigans are annoying, Unlike vanilla SV Deo-S has acess to Z-Moves, that might make it too good at it's job, Darkrai was fine to me but Z-Sets look a bit too strong kinda like pult, the other two are a bit too much, and can still fuck the tier even without tera, they are the definition of Low-Risk High Reward.
Edit: Edited some stuff I wrote in a hurry.
Enjoyment and Balance got a solid 8 on both for me, I can't quite put into words how better things got since the funny match-up flipper/Multi Stabs button was banned.
All the unmanned monsters except Pult are ok to me. All of them are balanced and I say make the tier better. Meanwhile about bans not, we should wait some more and test around to see if they still are as dominant I think it's still to early for a suspect on those mons.
Now about drops. Ape and Espartha are the obvious ones, now that both of them can't Tera out their issues they are way more manageable, especially Espartha since mono Psychic is kinda shitty in a Gambit/Dhengo meta and Ape's typing leaves it open to way too many threats, like Ghost/Fighting is great offensively but shitty defensively, any good team will naturally have at the very least one decent way to pressure it.
For possible suspects I gave a yes for Moon and Gouging, a maybe for Sneasler, Deo-S and Darkrai and flat no to Mage and Fin. The Dragons were too dependent of Tera in my opinion, allowing to came out of their exploitable types and gain free turns allowing a easy sweep, Sneasler is a better Lucha but Poison/Fighting is easier to exploit than Flying/Fighting but it's still a stronger Lucha and Dire Claw shenanigans are annoying, Unlike vanilla SV Deo-S has acess to Z-Moves, that might make it too good at it's job, Darkrai was fine to me but Z-Sets look a bit too strong kinda like pult, the other two are a bit too much, and can still fuck the tier even without tera, they are the definition of Low-Risk High Reward.
I will always defend at least a suspect of Lugia in SV-OU but never it NatDex. In Natdex Lugia hasn't lost anything, it still has its defensive and support tools which it has lost in the normal SV meta like Toxic, T-Wave and Defog. There, (in my opinion of course), it's just a glorified punchbag here it's just Gen 7 Lugia which is still a very Uber mon.
I won’t talk about the pokemon on the survey because there are plenty of others doing that already and I really don’t care too much. I’d also like to say that until we know for sure wether or not Dragapult will stay in the tier, any tiering action is irrelevant to me. I say this because I believe the meta will end up heavily revolving around Dragapult if it is not already. I’m not sure what I’d actually vote right now but the point I am making is that Dragapult has a lot of influence in building that could make it difficult for other pokemon to co-exist in the tier due to the restrictions built in already like ground/flying types being mandatory on every team as well as accounting for individual threats. The point of this post is to offer fair justification of a Lugia suspect at some point in the future. I can’t accurately give a time frame partly due to the reasons given above and also the fact that the meta is not in a stable enough state to warrant a clear prediction of what we can expect in the coming months (namely yard/gambit and shed stall being everywhere on ladder, will this trend continue to rise in popularity).
Lugia should be suspected at some point. It isn’t clear to me if Lugia broken or unhealthy but if it was then it would not be in a 6-0s your entire team type of way. The issue with Lugia is plainly because of its bulk. I think the argument that Lugia is unkillable is misguided by theoretical calcs that don’t portray realistic outcomes. I don’t find it productive to engage in hypothetical in-game scenarios unless you are extracting examples from actual games. My proposal is a forum tour with Lugia unbanned at the appropriate timeframe so we don’t overlap with other big tours or confuse with ongoing suspects.
Misguided calcs in question
+2 252 Atk Quark Drive Iron Valiant Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Lugia: 147-174 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Lugia: 373-439 (89.6 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia in Sun: 108-128 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+6 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 364-430 (87.5 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Okay okay obviously these calcs are pretty ridiculous and I’d be lying if I said they weren’t. I assumed 252hp/252speed as standard spread but I am not eliminating the possibility of alternative spreads. So what is my issue with these calcs and why do I claim they are misguided? Multiscale is not good. This ability is completely dependent on staying at full health which faulters against any form of chip like status, sand or anything that can deal damage. Possibly a larger factor as to why Pressure would be preferred over Multiscale is the limited amount of Roost PP. If you want to get value out of Multiscale that requires you to stay healthy and if you rely on it to wall things then you are forced to spam Roost. Pair this with the fact that you are extremely passive and can’t touch most of these pokemon back and you will discover that Lugia is nothing more than a wall. It will sit there and get chipped away until it crumbles when the last Roost has been expended. Pressure is not for anything specific, just a strong ability in general with some useful interactions.
This post is unorganized but I know it will gain traction because everyone is either with it or against it. If we are planning to suspect pokemon like Palafin and Magearna then Lugia is not such a long shot. Lugia does 1 thing exceptionally well and would be a great glue on defensive cores that would help check this tiers unlimited amount of threats. Bring on the Koffings you losers!
- thebestever543
Edit: Edited some stuff I wrote in a hurry.
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Fair enough. And to be clear I am not speaking with absolute confidence when I suggest that Lugia would be a good fit for the tier but I do believe it should be more seriously considered by the community and council for a suspect test. One reason is when you compare other things that are being tested such as Magearna and Deoxys-Speed or Walking Wake who was on the slate. Something that I disagree with is I think you underestimate how much worse Lugia has gotten in generation 9. The PP nerd to recovery should be enough justification to open people’s eyes but also consider the new additions to the tier like Dragapult, Gholdengo, Kingambit to name the most blatant offenders of Lugia. Obviously this is not a direct nerf compared to losing pp on its recovery but I hope we can agree that these pokemon are not a good presence for Lugia. However this post and many responses I’ve received from discussing this in various places like the National Dex room on showdown or the discord or in private, Lugia is certainly controversial. I’ve been told by numerous people that a forum tour could be an ideal way to test the waters of these uncertain pokemon. To be clear, not a suspect for anyone reading but a tournament that would hopefully attract more attention than a typical room tour and a chance to see it played with higher quality games. From there we could come to a decision on whether or not it should be suspected.
There is only one Pokemon that may be broken enough to be quickly banned: . However, I believe it should not be banned, because if the council plans to test other Pokemon, might make them irrelevant or might become more manageable. For example, if Spectrier is tested, it might be broken without but could be niche with in the meta. Consequently, if Pokemon such as or are tested, might become more of a niche Pokemon. I believe that most potential unbans should be tested/dropped together as we might end up in a fun/competitive meta where broken checks broken.
speaking of which Pokemon I believe should and should not be tested, I think these can be broken down into three tiers:
tier 1) Should never be tested (less than 2 OU Pokemon or other tier 3 potential unbans can switch into them)
tier 2) Should maybe be tested in the future (2 to 3 OU Pokemon or other tier 3 potential unbans can switch into them)
tier 3) Should definitely be tested (4 or more OU Pokemon or other tier 3 potential unbans can switch into them)
As for tier 1, this would include most box legendaries and Pokemon such as
.
All these Pokemon are broken and should not even be considered for potential testing. (I might be wrong about )
As for tier 2, I identified 6 Pokemon these are:
:Landorus-Incarnate: 
and 
. Allow me to explain the potential switch-ins to each.
: and can both switch in, however, 's u-turn keeps momentum and will slowly chip away at these mons. therefore even if this mon is tested it will most likely still end up banned.
:Landorous-Incarnate: :
and 
can both switch in but gravity will be an easy counter to them and therefore probably would end up banned or not tested
: 
and will all be able to switch into and with being nearly on every team and a meta warper I believe has a chance to be tested and remain in the OU tier.
: Defensive or can both switch into and be able to heal but might be a centralizing force, that being said with the prevalence of strong Pokemon with priority might not be too hard for most teams to handle.
: and can switch in. is able to u-turn out to a check and Powerwhip will scare out. But might be too much for OU teams to handle, I think that will still be banned.
: only water absorb or an can switch in, however, if tested it can promote the use of 
and 
and could therefore not be broken in OU, but z-moves might still push this pokemon over the edge.
Lastly, tier 3, in which I identified 18 potential unbans (a surprisingly large amount of Pokemon) that have 4 or more switch-ins, these Pokemon are 
.
: Truly a crap Pokemon carried by rage fist, if rage fist is banned then I don't think this guy will even reach UU, it will most likely be in RUBL. If Rage Fist remains legal it can still be switched on and threatened by 
and 
. I believe a rage fist might be healthy for the meta as it means people can't just spam volt-turn moves and actually have to make hard reads, which benefits good players.
: 
and can all switch in. It would promote the use of snow ( 
) which clearly walls, and could also encourage the use of that completely walls. Baxcalibur without the Terra is a good Pokemon but not a centralizing force and is not broken.
: 
and all switch in comfortably without taking much damage from STAB, cover moves such as focus blast may be a problem, but a Pokemon that needs focus blast to beate its counters is not broken. That being said with z-fighting this Pokemon might be over the top. Testing this Pokemon is a must in my opinion as the chance of a ban is 50%.
: walled by other psychic types in the tier such as 
and walled by 
and . It has knock-off, taunt, and entry hazards but the Pokemon has weak defenses and offenses meaning it either has to be utility or offensive, with only 2 viable type of sets, it will not be hard to deal with, pokemon with better stats, abilities, and typing have the same utility moves such as 
and the like.
: a controversial mon but I do believe that the mons in OU can handle it, all of 
and can switch in and either threaten, progress the game-state, or pivot into a check. This is without even considering Pokemon such as 
or . But I still believe that might be too much of a centralizing force in the meta and will probably end up being banned.
: Without Terra, this Pokemon can no longer muscle past its switch-ins, these include but are not limited to 
. I don't even believe this Pokemon can survive UU. pursuit is the bain of this Pokemon's existance.
: and all switch into this mon, this is without considering other non-OU mons such as Altaria-Mega and . It was clearly pushed over the edge by Terra in the previous meta but now can easily be countered and is weak to stealthrocks.
: Ghost types are very annoying for this Pokemon as it usually only runs suckerpunch (as a dark type move) for priority, and is therefore walled by 
and Skeledirge which all switch in and either cripple it or beat it outright this is without mentioning Pokemon that switch into a seismic toss and can pivot out such as . However because the seismic toss-parental bond mechanic is very broken it might prove too strong for the meta, that being said the plethora of fighting-type checks are vast and are on 99.9% of teams, these include 
. other potential unbans might such as and might also be a problem.
: This Pokemon is strong as it finally has a decent ice move (icicle spear) and dragon dance, but the lack of coverage brings this Pokemon down, steel type pokemon ( ) and can switch in and resist both STABs. The day gets Earthquake is the day it will remain in UBER with the big boys. That being said its bulk coupled with roost, substitute, and snow can push this Pokemon over the edge. I think it has a fair chance of being banned.
: After looking at I realised this mon struggles with 4 move syndrome, as no matter the set pokemon in the meta always wall. for example, if this Pokemon does not run a ground or dark move it gets walled by but if it does, it will not be able to touch Landorous, 
and unless it has ice punch which means and wall. In addition, the plethora of fighting types faster/scarfed ( and Zamazenta-Crowned) could handle Lucario-Mega. But I believe Lucario-Mega might be too fast and too strong for the OU meta. This Pokemon needs testing.
: Walled by and and is also checked by and . This Pokemon would probably be an A-tier but would be manageable by most teams.
: This Pokemon is very strong but I think that there are Pokemon in the meta that can wall and threaten this Pokemon, mainly bulky dragon types ( 
Altaria-Mega) bulky fire types ( 
) and is severely walled by pokemon such as and since they 4x resist his STAB.
: Without the ability to terra this Pokemon can no longer beat its counters the way it did before. This means that Pokemon such as and can easily switch in, in addition to fairy types in general, such as 
and . Plus pokemon with strong super effective priority such as and 
can check it. Faster/scarfed Pokemon can also beat it such as 
and . Bulky offensive Pokemon such as and 
can also come in and take any hit then finish it off.
: Without Terra, is no longer broken, it might still be good with the terrain-seed combo but it still has clear counters such as and . Just the fact that (the meta-defining Pokemon) is immune to both STABs is a detriment to and will mean that will not be as viable as before. In addition to this the fact that a defensive can switch into any even if it is +2 means that is no longer broken.
: This Pokemon is very strong and has good coverage but has no good stat-boosting moves. Not only that, it also suffers from 4 move syndrome, as it wants to run all five of Sunsteel strike, psychic fangs, flare blitz, close combat, and earthquake. Pokemon like and all switch in and either beat or pivot out (with a volt-turn move) into a check. These checks include and . I think that will be more of a defensive Pokemon as it is bulky and has access to moves like knock off, morning sun, teleport, roar, toxic, and thunder wave.
: This Pokemon gets walled by very prominent Pokemon in the meta such as (does not care about boost, unaware), 
(switches into any move), (pursuit trap), and . Not only that but also switches in and also walls, as it is immune to ghost-type moves and does not care about switching into a will-o-wisp. With in the meta, this Pokemon might become a niche pick within the meta.
: even though people think this Pokemon is broken as it has STAB heavy slam, it still has clear counters in the meta such as plus potential and . This Pokemon also has to carry an item meaning it will be slower than most booster and scarfed Pokemon. therefore many checks are present in the Meta such as and 
. I personally think that the normal is better than as it is free to carry an item such as heavy-duty boots or leftovers to counter this entry hazard meta.
: The true problem with this Pokemon is Glare which leads me to believe that the top four Pokemon that can switch in could be and (because it has rest and unaware). Other Pokemon that can switch in but not into a Glare include and . I also think that this Pokemon will be hindered due to the presence of strong dragon and fairy types such as 
and . Overall I think might become too centralizing and might still be banned as Thousand Arrows is an amazing move akin to Rage Fist.
. However, I believe it should not be banned, because if the council plans to test other Pokemon, might make them irrelevant or might become more manageable. For example, if Spectrier is tested, it might be broken without but could be niche with in the meta. Consequently, if Pokemon such as or are tested, might become more of a niche Pokemon. I believe that most potential unbans should be tested/dropped together as we might end up in a fun/competitive meta where broken checks broken.speaking of which Pokemon I believe should and should not be tested, I think these can be broken down into three tiers:
tier 1) Should never be tested (less than 2 OU Pokemon or other tier 3 potential unbans can switch into them)
tier 2) Should maybe be tested in the future (2 to 3 OU Pokemon or other tier 3 potential unbans can switch into them)
tier 3) Should definitely be tested (4 or more OU Pokemon or other tier 3 potential unbans can switch into them)
As for tier 1, this would include most box legendaries and Pokemon such as
.All these Pokemon are broken and should not even be considered for potential testing. (I might be wrong about
)As for tier 2, I identified 6 Pokemon these are:
:Landorus-Incarnate: and . Allow me to explain the potential switch-ins to each. : and can both switch in, however, 's u-turn keeps momentum and will slowly chip away at these mons. therefore even if this mon is tested it will most likely still end up banned.:Landorous-Incarnate: :
and can both switch in but gravity will be an easy counter to them and therefore probably would end up banned or not tested : and will all be able to switch into and with being nearly on every team and a meta warper I believe has a chance to be tested and remain in the OU tier. : Defensive or can both switch into and be able to heal but might be a centralizing force, that being said with the prevalence of strong Pokemon with priority might not be too hard for most teams to handle. : and can switch in. is able to u-turn out to a check and Powerwhip will scare out. But might be too much for OU teams to handle, I think that will still be banned. : only water absorb or an can switch in, however, if tested it can promote the use of and and could therefore not be broken in OU, but z-moves might still push this pokemon over the edge.Lastly, tier 3, in which I identified 18 potential unbans (a surprisingly large amount of Pokemon) that have 4 or more switch-ins, these Pokemon are
. : Truly a crap Pokemon carried by rage fist, if rage fist is banned then I don't think this guy will even reach UU, it will most likely be in RUBL. If Rage Fist remains legal it can still be switched on and threatened by and . I believe a rage fist might be healthy for the meta as it means people can't just spam volt-turn moves and actually have to make hard reads, which benefits good players. : and can all switch in. It would promote the use of snow ( ) which clearly walls, and could also encourage the use of that completely walls. Baxcalibur without the Terra is a good Pokemon but not a centralizing force and is not broken. : and all switch in comfortably without taking much damage from STAB, cover moves such as focus blast may be a problem, but a Pokemon that needs focus blast to beate its counters is not broken. That being said with z-fighting this Pokemon might be over the top. Testing this Pokemon is a must in my opinion as the chance of a ban is 50%. : walled by other psychic types in the tier such as and walled by and . It has knock-off, taunt, and entry hazards but the Pokemon has weak defenses and offenses meaning it either has to be utility or offensive, with only 2 viable type of sets, it will not be hard to deal with, pokemon with better stats, abilities, and typing have the same utility moves such as and the like. : a controversial mon but I do believe that the mons in OU can handle it, all of and can switch in and either threaten, progress the game-state, or pivot into a check. This is without even considering Pokemon such as or . But I still believe that might be too much of a centralizing force in the meta and will probably end up being banned. : Without Terra, this Pokemon can no longer muscle past its switch-ins, these include but are not limited to . I don't even believe this Pokemon can survive UU. pursuit is the bain of this Pokemon's existance. : and all switch into this mon, this is without considering other non-OU mons such as Altaria-Mega and . It was clearly pushed over the edge by Terra in the previous meta but now can easily be countered and is weak to stealthrocks. : Ghost types are very annoying for this Pokemon as it usually only runs suckerpunch (as a dark type move) for priority, and is therefore walled by and Skeledirge which all switch in and either cripple it or beat it outright this is without mentioning Pokemon that switch into a seismic toss and can pivot out such as . However because the seismic toss-parental bond mechanic is very broken it might prove too strong for the meta, that being said the plethora of fighting-type checks are vast and are on 99.9% of teams, these include . other potential unbans might such as and might also be a problem. : This Pokemon is strong as it finally has a decent ice move (icicle spear) and dragon dance, but the lack of coverage brings this Pokemon down, steel type pokemon ( ) and can switch in and resist both STABs. The day gets Earthquake is the day it will remain in UBER with the big boys. That being said its bulk coupled with roost, substitute, and snow can push this Pokemon over the edge. I think it has a fair chance of being banned. : After looking at I realised this mon struggles with 4 move syndrome, as no matter the set pokemon in the meta always wall. for example, if this Pokemon does not run a ground or dark move it gets walled by but if it does, it will not be able to touch Landorous, and unless it has ice punch which means and wall. In addition, the plethora of fighting types faster/scarfed ( and Zamazenta-Crowned) could handle Lucario-Mega. But I believe Lucario-Mega might be too fast and too strong for the OU meta. This Pokemon needs testing. : Walled by and and is also checked by and . This Pokemon would probably be an A-tier but would be manageable by most teams. : This Pokemon is very strong but I think that there are Pokemon in the meta that can wall and threaten this Pokemon, mainly bulky dragon types ( Altaria-Mega) bulky fire types ( ) and is severely walled by pokemon such as and since they 4x resist his STAB. : Without the ability to terra this Pokemon can no longer beat its counters the way it did before. This means that Pokemon such as and can easily switch in, in addition to fairy types in general, such as and . Plus pokemon with strong super effective priority such as and can check it. Faster/scarfed Pokemon can also beat it such as and . Bulky offensive Pokemon such as and can also come in and take any hit then finish it off. : Without Terra, is no longer broken, it might still be good with the terrain-seed combo but it still has clear counters such as and . Just the fact that (the meta-defining Pokemon) is immune to both STABs is a detriment to and will mean that will not be as viable as before. In addition to this the fact that a defensive can switch into any even if it is +2 means that is no longer broken. : This Pokemon is very strong and has good coverage but has no good stat-boosting moves. Not only that, it also suffers from 4 move syndrome, as it wants to run all five of Sunsteel strike, psychic fangs, flare blitz, close combat, and earthquake. Pokemon like and all switch in and either beat or pivot out (with a volt-turn move) into a check. These checks include and . I think that will be more of a defensive Pokemon as it is bulky and has access to moves like knock off, morning sun, teleport, roar, toxic, and thunder wave. : This Pokemon gets walled by very prominent Pokemon in the meta such as (does not care about boost, unaware), (switches into any move), (pursuit trap), and . Not only that but also switches in and also walls, as it is immune to ghost-type moves and does not care about switching into a will-o-wisp. With in the meta, this Pokemon might become a niche pick within the meta. : even though people think this Pokemon is broken as it has STAB heavy slam, it still has clear counters in the meta such as plus potential and . This Pokemon also has to carry an item meaning it will be slower than most booster and scarfed Pokemon. therefore many checks are present in the Meta such as and . I personally think that the normal is better than as it is free to carry an item such as heavy-duty boots or leftovers to counter this entry hazard meta. : The true problem with this Pokemon is Glare which leads me to believe that the top four Pokemon that can switch in could be and (because it has rest and unaware). Other Pokemon that can switch in but not into a Glare include and . I also think that this Pokemon will be hindered due to the presence of strong dragon and fairy types such as and . Overall I think might become too centralizing and might still be banned as Thousand Arrows is an amazing move akin to Rage Fist.
Some of the logic used here to justify suspects feel weird to me, such as arguing that Wake prompting the use ofThere is only one Pokemon that may be broken enough to be quickly banned:
speaking of which Pokemon I believe should and should not be tested, I think these can be broken down into three tiers:
tier 1) Should never be tested (less than 2 OU Pokemon or other tier 3 potential unbans can switch into them)
tier 2) Should maybe be tested in the future (2 to 3 OU Pokemon or other tier 3 potential unbans can switch into them)
tier 3) Should definitely be tested (4 or more OU Pokemon or other tier 3 potential unbans can switch into them)
As for tier 1, this would include most box legendaries and Pokemon such as
All these Pokemon are broken and should not even be considered for potential testing. (I might be wrong about
As for tier 2, I identified 6 Pokemon these are:
:Landorous-Incarnate: :
Lastly, tier 3, in which I identified 18 potential unbans (a surprisingly large amount of Pokemon) that have 4 or more switch-ins, these Pokemon are
or is somehow making it not broken when in fact a pokemon that prompts the use of mediocre or bad mons, is only a red flag that there's an issue. Those two are not good pokemon and wouldn't suddenly be if Wake was around (case in point WAS used when Wake was around before and it still wasn't good).The rest, a ton of what you put in "Tier 3" just is confusing to me. I originally thought
has the potential to not be as toxic as before without Tera, but after Hidin's post which rather nicely outlined the issue this mon brings, I actually changed my mind and agree. You argue that Ape would be healthy for the meta because "people wouldn't spam volt-turn moves", but we already have plenty of ways to do this. All Ape does is punish defensive teams unreasonably for not building a certain way and I don't think we need that (or want it). For all three steels are easily fed to Magnezone if one wants the easy out, but also Ferro/Corv struggle to handle +2 Icicle Spear and at best, trade for a bit of chip on it (and Corv sucks). Offensive counterplay exists, but not to the degree that I think is enough to make it balanced. is a fair shot for a retest since it's been so long, but you sort of oversimplified this mon a lot. Nasty Plot+Z alone would be difficult to handle especially as it has a million options to run if it wanted. The psychics you mentioned are easy Pursuit bait for a Kingambit, Terapagos only checks, not walls, while Tera Shell is up, Sableye-Mega is stall exclusive, Solgaleo isn't legal and Hatterene is mediocre. As for just rchno. Clodsire is terrible outside stall, Ferro/Gambit die to Focus Blast or Z Fightinium, Zama alone is not nearly enough to reign this in and Z+NastyPlot+Hypnosis sets were absolutely toxic and awful when it was last legal. No thanks. Banded Vish invalidates defense completely (without a water absorber) so a big fat no. Archaludon is a rain only mon and only switches in once (and being a rain mon, is OHKOd with a spike up if rain is still up lol). Standard Ferro is 2HKOd with spikes up, Wellspring is one Outrage away from death. Even Mola has to be in pristine health to avoid a 2HKO on switch in from Banded Fishious Rend. About Hidin already said everything about this that need be said. Z+Outrage blows through almost everything at +1 barring max bulk Lando-T post intimidate. Way too bulky which eases set up, too strong after set up and often forces multiple trades to contain it. Why is this even here. Ghosts are not checks at all because Sucker Punch, and almost everything else is risking 2HKOs from Parental Bond Seismic Toss nonsense. Just no. is also a big fat no. This thing is really stupid as a HO mon (especially backed by screens) and is way unreasonable to handle. Gholdengo is one good check and the rest you listed all check one set and lose to the other (SD/NP). Again, why is this here. And ? outside Gambit and Ghold (Don sucks outside stall), the rest of these existed last gen and it was still really stupid. Megagross got mega buffed this gen and would be even stupider now. As for your dragons insta die to +2 Play Rough. megalolno. This was turbo broken last gen and would be no different this gen. Saying it would be "niche" because Pult exists is silly, because this mon is far more broken than Pult ever could be. Outside Dhengo none of what you listed are "counters". They all get out bulked and overwhelmed by ID+BP, and the fire types die to stone edge. As for the recovery issue? Mola lol. And is a really toxic mon that just adapts and beats its checks. And Sub+Glare is BS.Kinda went on a tangent and I hope it didn't come across as dismissive but in general I think we should be careful not to get really "unban happy" just because the stuff that were freed recently proved to overall be balanced. The first wave of unbans were easy because they were the most easy to single out to their Tera abuse (Gambit, Gholdengo, Zamazenta, Terapagos, Melmetal) and ended up improving teambuilding with their qualities, but others need to be scrutinized more before considering them. You also mentioned that you believe that "most potential unbans should be tested/dropped together as we might end up in a fun/competitive meta where broken checks broken", but that is not how OU operates. Broken checks broken does not result in a fun/competitive meta as far as OU is concerned.
rock slide
grass knot
hammer arm
knock off
pursuit
toxic
earthquake
ice punch
hidden power
thunder punch
also one of the things that gets mega metagross banned is it generates a lot of free turns while most of its moves have major secondary effects including giving it free boosts, flinching opponents, freezing, etc. etc.
unfortunately this guy isn't exclusively physical. Nasty plot sets are just as effective as physical ones and also have entirely different checks. For physical sets alone, offensive volcarona is dying to +2 CC and spdef molt is taking 80% bare minimum. Scarf shifu has fallen out of favor, scarf tusk is a meme and mlop/zama are hard pressed to switch into this guy, if zama gets chipped it can also very easily be taken out by bullet punch after an SD. Nplot sets are also frankly terrifying as it gets deceptively good special coverage. Dark pulse, shadow ball, psychic and hell, even water pulse I can all see valid reasons for using and will smash though any team trying to answer this guy without slapping scarf on some random shit. It's just too much for the tier right now and adds literally nothing to itAs a strong force in this community I believe unbanning mega Lucario would be great!
reasons why? I realised this mon struggles with 4 move syndrome, as no matter the set pokemon in the meta always wall. for example, if this Pokemon does not run a ground or dark move it gets walled by
enough evidence for a test
New event, new post I put a lot of effort into!
Surrounding the topic of the newest survey, I'll share my opinion for the offers of certain unbans. You can agree/disagree if you want:
➤ I can see this thing being back to NDOU! Even with the controversial Z-Hypnosis, its old counter has returned in Zamazenta and it can't escape its defensive weaknesses with Tera anymore. Plus we have Booster Energy Iron Valiant, Dragapult or Choice Scarfers that outspeed and can take out Darkrai before it uses its Z-Crystal. We have even special defensive Pokemon/tanks such as unaware Clefable, Ting-Lu or Hoodra to get it out with Roar/Dragon Tail/Whirlwind or just to kill it. Even in the worst case scenario, Zamazenta can still live a hit, even from a boosted special move. It also struggles with the 4MMS syndrome, meaning it can't have all the coverage it wants. (5)
➤ I think this Pokemon deserves its last chance to prove itself as a healthy presence in the metagame. With the return of Zamazenta, Melmetal and Pökemon like Dragapult, there's still counterplay against it! Zamazenta and Dragapult KO it with their STAB moves super effective against it, Mega Scizor/Melmetal, Great Tusk can take a boosted attack and hit it right back HARD and Pokemon like Landorus-T and Moltres can cripple with burns, if we are talking about Moltres or Intimidate + Rocky Helmet by Lando-T. Even if it has Draconium Z, There are bulky steels that can switch into that powerhowse. Plus it has its cons, like not being able to outspeed Fairy/Fightong scarfers, Mega-Lopunny, Zamzaenta and Dragapult. At the end of the day, without Tera, I can see this thing being allowed in the tier. It has power, sure, but it is outspeed by some Pókemon AND its attacks can be dealt defensively with. (5)
➤ This is a Pókemon I have a very mixed opinion on: it can be balanced, but it has the tools to be an absolute monster, the first con tor this Pokemon is that it starts at its weak state, but after its first Switcg-out, it transforms itself into a monster (NOT a hero, Like my Zamazenta). As a general Check we have Venusaur-Mega, Slowbro, Alomomola, Toxapex or faster Pokemon like Zamazenta, Dragapult, Tapu Koko and many others. Plus it has to Deal with the cons of being a physical attacker, being scared of burns by WOWisps or Scald, Rocky Helmet chip damage and Intimidate. Plus it can be KOed by Grassy Glide from Rillaboom and Thunderclap from Raging Bolt. Choice sets are not the sets I’m afraid of, rather the Taunt + Bulk Up set, but still it can’t fit all coverage it wants, so I wouldn’t mind trying this ‘Mon in the tier. (5)
➤ I'm am NOT a fan of Stored Power set-up sweepers and unbanning Magearna? No, thank you! I am not in favor of letting this thing legal in this tier. I have not many thing to say for this Pókemon. At first glance, it has stellar typing, great bulk, making its ability to set-up itself easy with Calm Mind + Shift Gear/Calm Mind + Iron Defense. Not to mention that it has STAB recover in Draining Kiss and having Stored Power. Sure, it has other sets, but THIS one, named Double Dance, is what pushes it over the edge. Sorry, for me it’s a BIG no-no! (2)
➤ Without Tera, there is a possibility (in my opinion, that is), that this Pòkemon is manageable in the tier NDOU and can be dealt with defemnsive Lando-T, Corviknight, (Great Tusk), Dondozo and other bulky Pókemon like Toxapex or Alomomola and bulky Gholdengo using T-Wave or just by attacking. Like many Pókemon here, it suffers from 4MMS syndrome, so it can’t pack all coverage it wants, since for Unburden sets, it’s mandatory to have Swords Dance. That leaves it to be offensively checked by various mentioned bulky Pókemon. Hey, maybe I could be wrong and this thing turns out to be busted even WITHOUT Tera, but for now, I am convinced we should give this ‘Mon another chance. It could work. (4)
➤ Like Roaring Moon, this things acts as a set-up sweeper. The problem is that its weaker and slower, BUT it’s a lot bulkier than Roaring Moon. Without Tera, this thing can’t escape its defensive cons, leaving it weak to Great Tusk, Landorus-T, Zamazenta Iron-Press, bulky Moltres and Dondozo. Of course it could take advantage of Draconium Z, but it lets itslef be weak to hazards, specifically Stealth Rock, with gives it 25% damage. I think overall there is some counterplay against this 'Mon in the tier and I won't mind unban or try it in the current meta. (4)
➤ If it weren't for Z-Crystals, I could let this thing in NDOU, alas we still got Z-Crystals, making it too strong. Afraid Deoxys misses Focus Blast? No problem! Introducing, Fightium Z! Not to mention its ridiculous speed and movepool! It has Nasty Plot to increase its power, Psycho Boost for devastating STAB attack and the versatility of holding Z-Crystals or Life Orb for MORE power, not to mention it outspeeds EVERY Pòkemon naturally, even some Choice Scarfers. It also is a HUGE abuser of Psychic Terrain, boosting its STAB moves like Psycho Boost or Expanding Forece. Letting this thing loose will break NDOU in my opinion. (2)
➤ You can give me ALL the money you want, I ain't EVER letting this thing legal in NDOU! NEVER! Having access to Speed Boost with Calm Mind boosts, STAB in Stored Power. I don't care about its awful movepool, it's already disgusting EVEN without Tera. DO! NOT! UNBAN! ESPATRA! (1)
➤ I have to be honest with you maybe this thing has a chance of redemption afer Tera is gone. There are many Fairier, psychic and Flying Pokemon that can out speed and kill it. And there are Pokemon like Ting-Lu, Skarmory and Moltres that can either burn it (Moltres) or forcefully swithch it out (Ting-Lu/Skarmory). Like all physical Pòkemon, it loathes being burned by Scald and that's common thanks to Alomomola and Toxapex and WOWisp by Dragapult (or Burning Bulwark by Gouging Fire). Speaking of Toxapex, it can status it with Toxic or Haze to remove its boosts. The problem is however Rager Fist, but if you finbd yourself with a Pokemon that can kill you like Tapu Lele or Tornadus-T, power won't matter that much. I want to give this thing another chance! I think it deserves it! (4)
So ther's my opinion on every Pòkemon being offered an unban on the survey! I'd love to try some of them in the future! Thank you SO much for reading out my essay! What are your opinions on the survey?
Take care, everyone!
Surrounding the topic of the newest survey, I'll share my opinion for the offers of certain unbans. You can agree/disagree if you want:
➤ I can see this thing being back to NDOU! Even with the controversial Z-Hypnosis, its old counter has returned in Zamazenta and it can't escape its defensive weaknesses with Tera anymore. Plus we have Booster Energy Iron Valiant, Dragapult or Choice Scarfers that outspeed and can take out Darkrai before it uses its Z-Crystal. We have even special defensive Pokemon/tanks such as unaware Clefable, Ting-Lu or Hoodra to get it out with Roar/Dragon Tail/Whirlwind or just to kill it. Even in the worst case scenario, Zamazenta can still live a hit, even from a boosted special move. It also struggles with the 4MMS syndrome, meaning it can't have all the coverage it wants. (5)
➤ I think this Pokemon deserves its last chance to prove itself as a healthy presence in the metagame. With the return of Zamazenta, Melmetal and Pökemon like Dragapult, there's still counterplay against it! Zamazenta and Dragapult KO it with their STAB moves super effective against it, Mega Scizor/Melmetal, Great Tusk can take a boosted attack and hit it right back HARD and Pokemon like Landorus-T and Moltres can cripple with burns, if we are talking about Moltres or Intimidate + Rocky Helmet by Lando-T. Even if it has Draconium Z, There are bulky steels that can switch into that powerhowse. Plus it has its cons, like not being able to outspeed Fairy/Fightong scarfers, Mega-Lopunny, Zamzaenta and Dragapult. At the end of the day, without Tera, I can see this thing being allowed in the tier. It has power, sure, but it is outspeed by some Pókemon AND its attacks can be dealt defensively with. (5)
➤ This is a Pókemon I have a very mixed opinion on: it can be balanced, but it has the tools to be an absolute monster, the first con tor this Pokemon is that it starts at its weak state, but after its first Switcg-out, it transforms itself into a monster (NOT a hero, Like my Zamazenta). As a general Check we have Venusaur-Mega, Slowbro, Alomomola, Toxapex or faster Pokemon like Zamazenta, Dragapult, Tapu Koko and many others. Plus it has to Deal with the cons of being a physical attacker, being scared of burns by WOWisps or Scald, Rocky Helmet chip damage and Intimidate. Plus it can be KOed by Grassy Glide from Rillaboom and Thunderclap from Raging Bolt. Choice sets are not the sets I’m afraid of, rather the Taunt + Bulk Up set, but still it can’t fit all coverage it wants, so I wouldn’t mind trying this ‘Mon in the tier. (5)
➤ I'm am NOT a fan of Stored Power set-up sweepers and unbanning Magearna? No, thank you! I am not in favor of letting this thing legal in this tier. I have not many thing to say for this Pókemon. At first glance, it has stellar typing, great bulk, making its ability to set-up itself easy with Calm Mind + Shift Gear/Calm Mind + Iron Defense. Not to mention that it has STAB recover in Draining Kiss and having Stored Power. Sure, it has other sets, but THIS one, named Double Dance, is what pushes it over the edge. Sorry, for me it’s a BIG no-no! (2)
➤ Without Tera, there is a possibility (in my opinion, that is), that this Pòkemon is manageable in the tier NDOU and can be dealt with defemnsive Lando-T, Corviknight, (Great Tusk), Dondozo and other bulky Pókemon like Toxapex or Alomomola and bulky Gholdengo using T-Wave or just by attacking. Like many Pókemon here, it suffers from 4MMS syndrome, so it can’t pack all coverage it wants, since for Unburden sets, it’s mandatory to have Swords Dance. That leaves it to be offensively checked by various mentioned bulky Pókemon. Hey, maybe I could be wrong and this thing turns out to be busted even WITHOUT Tera, but for now, I am convinced we should give this ‘Mon another chance. It could work. (4)
➤ Like Roaring Moon, this things acts as a set-up sweeper. The problem is that its weaker and slower, BUT it’s a lot bulkier than Roaring Moon. Without Tera, this thing can’t escape its defensive cons, leaving it weak to Great Tusk, Landorus-T, Zamazenta Iron-Press, bulky Moltres and Dondozo. Of course it could take advantage of Draconium Z, but it lets itslef be weak to hazards, specifically Stealth Rock, with gives it 25% damage. I think overall there is some counterplay against this 'Mon in the tier and I won't mind unban or try it in the current meta. (4)
➤ If it weren't for Z-Crystals, I could let this thing in NDOU, alas we still got Z-Crystals, making it too strong. Afraid Deoxys misses Focus Blast? No problem! Introducing, Fightium Z! Not to mention its ridiculous speed and movepool! It has Nasty Plot to increase its power, Psycho Boost for devastating STAB attack and the versatility of holding Z-Crystals or Life Orb for MORE power, not to mention it outspeeds EVERY Pòkemon naturally, even some Choice Scarfers. It also is a HUGE abuser of Psychic Terrain, boosting its STAB moves like Psycho Boost or Expanding Forece. Letting this thing loose will break NDOU in my opinion. (2)
➤ You can give me ALL the money you want, I ain't EVER letting this thing legal in NDOU! NEVER! Having access to Speed Boost with Calm Mind boosts, STAB in Stored Power. I don't care about its awful movepool, it's already disgusting EVEN without Tera. DO! NOT! UNBAN! ESPATRA! (1)
➤ I have to be honest with you maybe this thing has a chance of redemption afer Tera is gone. There are many Fairier, psychic and Flying Pokemon that can out speed and kill it. And there are Pokemon like Ting-Lu, Skarmory and Moltres that can either burn it (Moltres) or forcefully swithch it out (Ting-Lu/Skarmory). Like all physical Pòkemon, it loathes being burned by Scald and that's common thanks to Alomomola and Toxapex and WOWisp by Dragapult (or Burning Bulwark by Gouging Fire). Speaking of Toxapex, it can status it with Toxic or Haze to remove its boosts. The problem is however Rager Fist, but if you finbd yourself with a Pokemon that can kill you like Tapu Lele or Tornadus-T, power won't matter that much. I want to give this thing another chance! I think it deserves it! (4)
So ther's my opinion on every Pòkemon being offered an unban on the survey! I'd love to try some of them in the future! Thank you SO much for reading out my essay! What are your opinions on the survey?
Take care, everyone!
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I’m gonna come out with a take that might annoy some people but I’ll do it anyway.
Espathra should not be unbanned as it contributes nothing positive to the metagame.
Really think about it. doesn’t add anything that really benefits the metagame at the moment. It doesn’t contribute to a teams defenses and it doesn’t provide a lot of utility to its team that is unique. The best argument you can make is it protects you from weather sweepers and booster energy mons…. sometimes. All it does is provide an annoying match up fish where it banks on the opponent either not having a dark type or that said dark type can be worn down over the course of a battle. I don’t think it’s healthy to have to consider this thing in the team builder and say “well I have a really solid team but if I don’t add a dark type or x4 psychic resist I might be destroyed by this random Pokemon.
Oh it’s coverage is ass. It doesn’t have fighting coverage. You people do realize it has fairy type coverage. And calm mind. And U-turn. It’s not that simple as saying “well if it doesn’t have a fighting type I guess it’s not this cancerous addition to the tier.” At least Magearna has to make itself faster with Shift Gear, it doesn’t get a speed boost by default. Similar to how Spectrier doesn’t add anything positive, so does Espathra fall under the same problem.
We should be looking at potential uber drops from this lens. “Does it lead to a more diverse metagame? Does it add positive characteristics to that metagame?”
Espathra should not be unbanned as it contributes nothing positive to the metagame.
Really think about it.
doesn’t add anything that really benefits the metagame at the moment. It doesn’t contribute to a teams defenses and it doesn’t provide a lot of utility to its team that is unique. The best argument you can make is it protects you from weather sweepers and booster energy mons…. sometimes. All it does is provide an annoying match up fish where it banks on the opponent either not having a dark type or that said dark type can be worn down over the course of a battle. I don’t think it’s healthy to have to consider this thing in the team builder and say “well I have a really solid team but if I don’t add a dark type or x4 psychic resist I might be destroyed by this random Pokemon. Oh it’s coverage is ass. It doesn’t have fighting coverage. You people do realize it has fairy type coverage. And calm mind. And U-turn. It’s not that simple as saying “well if it doesn’t have a fighting type I guess it’s not this cancerous addition to the tier.” At least Magearna has to make itself faster with Shift Gear, it doesn’t get a speed boost by default. Similar to how Spectrier doesn’t add anything positive, so does Espathra fall under the same problem.
We should be looking at potential uber drops from this lens. “Does it lead to a more diverse metagame? Does it add positive characteristics to that metagame?”
I think Darkrai would be a positive addition to ND OU. Z-Moves may be a bit much, but at the same time, the tier needs more Ice Beamers IMO that don't automatically drop to Kingambit. If other Pokemon like Sneasler, Roaring Moon, and Magearna are also dropped, then Darkrai would have even more counterplay beyond Zamazenta / Volcarona / Terapagos / Tapu Koko.
That said, I do think regardless of whether it drops or not, Hypnosis or sleep should be banned. Z-Hypnosis is simply uncompetitive dice-rolling that adds nothing to the metagame. Its not even just Darkrai using this crap either - Xurkitree can be nasty with it, as can Iron Valiant. I would greatly prefer if this element was removed from the game entirely.
That said, I do think regardless of whether it drops or not, Hypnosis or sleep should be banned. Z-Hypnosis is simply uncompetitive dice-rolling that adds nothing to the metagame. Its not even just Darkrai using this crap either - Xurkitree can be nasty with it, as can Iron Valiant. I would greatly prefer if this element was removed from the game entirely.
I can agree with this but I have honestly not seen Iron Valiant using Hypnosis. I have sometimes seen Xurkitree on low ladder but Iron Valiants I have seen have usually been Choice Specs, physical booster energy or maybe some mixed attacker variant. We ban Z-Hypnosis because it's uncompetitive. We could just ban Hypnosis and/or any sleep move that is 60% or less. Nobody is complaining about Sleep Powder Mega Venusaur. Or if they are, they are very quiet.
I was gonna do a more detailed post about potential drops but I'll do a short short SHORT version. If you want elaboration feel free to speak up. Otherwise, I'm gonna say Keep Banned, Test, Unban or No Opinion.
Unban:
, ,Test:
, , , ,, 
(okay the last one may be pushing it a bit but I think it could be kind of fun to try it out.)Keep Banned:
, , , 
No Opinion
If I didn't include it, it's an obvious do not unban. Like,
could be funny to test out but would probably be very stupid so I didn't include it. Seriously though, don't unban . That's a horrible idea. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking otherwise.
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The way I see it, either Darkrai comes back and Sleep is axed, or Darkrai stays malding and it's business as usual. I get the feeling it's gonna be a hardsell to ban Sleep here, but idk. Anything's possible.
Please noTest:
Lowkey could see an argument to retest Baxcallibur. Gives us an Ice type attacker, at least. Maybe with all the new stuff here, it's worth trying out. At least with this goober there's something valuable to gain.No Opinion