Ubers UU National Dex Ubers UU [OCTOBER SHIFTS @ 108]

[Zrp200]

Tier Shifts and Tiering Actions for October 2024​

All legality changes:

Ubers → Ubers UU​	Giratina-O
Ubers → Ubers UUBL​	Rayquaza
Ubers UU → Ubers​	Deoxys-S Lugia
Ubers UU → Ubers UUBL​	Arceus-Fire

Tagging Marty dhelmise to implement.

Shifts​

averaged usage stats

Rank	Pokémon	Usage Percentage
1	Groudon-Primal	53.067%
2	Necrozma-Dusk-Mane	37.931%
3	Ho-Oh	28.607%
4	Zacian-Crowned	24.973%
5	Zygarde	24.236%
6	Marshadow	24.156%
7	Yveltal	23.120%
8	Arceus	23.059%
9	Deoxys-Attack	21.047%
10	Arceus-Ground	19.512%
11	Arceus-Dark	9.881%
12	Eternatus	9.880%
13	Glimmora	9.006%
14	Mewtwo-Mega-Y	8.909%
15	Dondozo	8.895%
16	Hatterene	8.692%
17	Smeargle	8.461%
18	Kyogre-Primal	8.153%
19	Calyrex-Ice	7.876%
20	Arceus-Fairy	6.874%
21	Ditto	5.915%
22	Salamence-Mega	5.900%
23	Chansey	5.780%
24	Lugia	5.316%
25	Kyogre	5.326%
26	Deoxys-Speed	4.653%
27	Melmetal	4.635%
​	-------- cutoff --------​	​
28	Kingambit	4.505%
29	Mewtwo	4.456%
30	Rayquaza	4.302%
31	Garganacl	4.113%
32	Giratina-Origin	4.097%

We can spend all day trying to process the unfortunate sequence of events that has brought ladder so low to value Lugia over either Giratina-O or Rayquaza, but at the end of the day, we have lost and, even more bafflingly, gained .

Perhaps this is a sign that we need to retake the National Dex Ubers ladder with actually good teams. Until then, we have to deal with the fallout.

Bans​

As a result of these deeply unnerving shifts (and NDOTSL), the council has decided to hold a quick ban slate.

Slate 6​	Runo​	Xurkiyee​	Zrp200​	Outcome​
Arceus-Fire ​	BAN​	BAN​	BAN​	BAN​
Rayquaza ​	BAN​	BAN​	BAN​	BAN​

is getting banned immediately. Sorry not sorry, no Tera Flying Dragon Ascent or Tera Fire V-Create OHKOing allowed in this no-fun zone called a tier.
More seriously, it is impossible to handle Rayquaza. Not does Rayquaza possesses ample means of OHKOing the entire tier with minimal or even no setup, but it has ample set variety to confound any attempts at consistent counterplay against it. It would surely wrap the tier around it while losing absolutely none of its set variety or dangerousness.

Deep dive into this

• Dragon Dance sets with Tera Flying are well-situated to destroy any opposing team after a boost. Notably, +1 Life Orb Tera Flying Dragon Ascent will simply remove even the most physically defensive of after a layer of Spikes and obliterate all other variants straight up, while Rayquaza can easily fit coverage like V-Create or Earthquake to prevent Steel-types like from dreaming of checking it. Sash, Heavy-Duty Boots, and Sharp Beak are all totally valid options as well.
• Swords Dance Tera Normal is bound to be a terrifying sweeper, backed by a powerful Dragon Ascent to obliterate "checks" like etc while still being able to fit V-Create to blow those silly Steel types sky-high.
• Choice Band Tera Flying at worst 2HKOes the entire neutral metagame with Dragon Ascent, and 3HKOes Pokemon that resist like . But even if you switch them in, Rayquaza can just use V-Create, which OHKOes every single Steel type. Also comes with U-turn to style against attempts to play around it with the very small pool of mons that would otherwise be able to.
• Choice Band Tera Fire not only hits harder than Tera Flying Dragon Ascent, but it also completely flips Rayquaza's matchups into even considering Tera options on these and moreover just adds insult to injury against your Steel-type "check" and any attempts to burn it. It would probably even see usage on Trick Room; it hits that hard. Sadly, Air Lock prevents V-Create from effortlessly OHKOing physically defensive Groudon, but it still falls after minor chip.
• Mixed sets meanwhile still exist to quickly grab kills against common Dragon types and ruin defensive walls.
• Scarf sets with any of Tera Fire, Tera Flying, and Tera Dragon would be usable to foil arrogant enough to think that they can win against that unrevealed Rayquaza simply because they have a higher Speed stat and a 4x super effective move.

This thing would basically centralize the whole metagame around itself and still not be conventionally checkable by any playstyle.

Arceus-Fire is getting banned for its performance in NDOTSL. It's consistently shown itself to be a very silly setup sweeper with great set variety and very limited counterplay couresty of having STAB Flare Blitz and a plethora of setup options, particularly Dragon Dance, in a metagame where sun is trivially easy to set. Note that this decision was made before we got the tier shifts and did not consider 's impact on the meta.

Updated resources will come soon™

 

[Sami]

National Dex Ubers UU Role Compendium​

choice users

​
​
​

setup

Physical Setup​

Swords Dance

|

|

|

|

Dragon Dance

|

(

)
Bulk Up / Curse

|(

)|

|

(

|

)
Iron Defense + Body Press

|

|

(

)|

Special​

Calm Mind

|

|

(

)|

(

)|

(

)
Meteor Beam

|

Nasty Plot

|

Shell Smash

priority

Sucker Punch

|

Bullet Punch

Ice Shard

|

Extreme Speed

Fake Out

Grassy Glide

Thunderclap

pivots

Volt Switch

U-turn

Flip Turn

Shed Tail

|

Chilly Reception

Teleport

misc support

Support	Pokemon
Heart Swap​
Phazing​	|()
Haze​	|
Taunt​	|
Heal Bell​
Trapping​	|
Pursuit​	|

checks

Pokemon	Defensive Check	Offensive Check
​	|
​
​	| |	|
​		​

hazard setters

Stealth Rock​

|

|

|

Spikes​

|

Toxic Spikes​

Sticky Web​

|

hazard removal

Defog

|

|

Rapid Spin

|

|

hazard-related abilities

Magic Bounce

|

Mold Breaker |
Good as Gold

Weathers and Terrains

Condition	Setters	Users
Sun​	​	|
Rain​	​
Psychic Terrain​	​
Grassy Terrain​	​
Electric Terrain​	​
Snow​	​
Sand​	​

Doesn't Sand technically have Garganacl and Mega Diancie that benefit from it?

Also, I'm pretty sure Encore should be listed with potential users like Ogerpon-H and Hisuian Samurott.

 

[Zrp200]

Doesn't Sand technically have Garganacl and Mega Diancie that benefit from it?

Also, I'm pretty sure Encore should be listed with potential users like Ogerpon-H and Hisuian Samurott.

thanks!

 

[Zrp200]

Zrp200 is the new Tier Leader!​

Hello! Runo is stepping down as Tier Leader, so I'm taking over instead!!!!! Scary, right?

I've updated most of the resources to reflect changes in legality and moved the role compendium to the top of this thread.

Tiering Survey​

We've been meaning to do a post-NDOTSL survey on the tier, but due to unforeseen delays we've only completed the survey now!

I'm interested in what people who've played the tier before think about the state of the metagame, at least prior to the latest shifts, as well as the current pace of quickbans.

Pinging everyone who played at least one game in this format in NDOTSL

Runo JustCallMeFish Mom Lover veti swinubfan123 ARTYMASION FadedCharm Poosh_i Adriyun Elvira teamo

We may not have any active events right now, but we're in the running for a spotlight ladder for next month, so I'd like to try to make the metagame a little bit less of a mess if possible, compared to last time ;)

 

[Irys]

Zrp200 is the new Tier Leader!​

Hello! Runo is stepping down as Tier Leader, so I'm taking over instead!!!!! Scary, right?

I've updated most of the resources to reflect changes in legality and moved the role compendium to the top of this thread.

Tiering Survey​

We've been meaning to do a post-NDOTSL survey on the tier, but due to unforeseen delays we've only completed the survey now!

I'm interested in what people who've played the tier before think about the state of the metagame, at least prior to the latest shifts, as well as the current pace of quickbans.

Pinging everyone who played at least one game in this format in NDOTSL

Runo JustCallMeFish Mom Lover veti swinubfan123 ARTYMASION FadedCharm Poosh_i Adriyun Elvira teamo

We may not have any active events right now, but we're in the running for a spotlight ladder for next month, so I'd like to try to make the metagame a little bit less of a mess if possible, compared to last time ;)

Congratulations goat, my favorite match to ever play against a now Tier Leader.

 

[Mom Lover]

Zrp200 is the new Tier Leader!​

Hello! Runo is stepping down as Tier Leader, so I'm taking over instead!!!!! Scary, right?

I've updated most of the resources to reflect changes in legality and moved the role compendium to the top of this thread.

Tiering Survey​

We've been meaning to do a post-NDOTSL survey on the tier, but due to unforeseen delays we've only completed the survey now!

I'm interested in what people who've played the tier before think about the state of the metagame, at least prior to the latest shifts, as well as the current pace of quickbans.

Pinging everyone who played at least one game in this format in NDOTSL

Runo JustCallMeFish Mom Lover veti swinubfan123 ARTYMASION FadedCharm Poosh_i Adriyun Elvira teamo

We may not have any active events right now, but we're in the running for a spotlight ladder for next month, so I'd like to try to make the metagame a little bit less of a mess if possible, compared to last time ;)

congrats bro. gl fixing this godforsaken tier lol

 

[Poosh_i]

Zrp200 is the new Tier Leader!​

Hello! Runo is stepping down as Tier Leader, so I'm taking over instead!!!!! Scary, right?

I've updated most of the resources to reflect changes in legality and moved the role compendium to the top of this thread.

Tiering Survey​

We've been meaning to do a post-NDOTSL survey on the tier, but due to unforeseen delays we've only completed the survey now!

I'm interested in what people who've played the tier before think about the state of the metagame, at least prior to the latest shifts, as well as the current pace of quickbans.

Pinging everyone who played at least one game in this format in NDOTSL

Runo JustCallMeFish Mom Lover veti swinubfan123 ARTYMASION FadedCharm Poosh_i Adriyun Elvira teamo

We may not have any active events right now, but we're in the running for a spotlight ladder for next month, so I'd like to try to make the metagame a little bit less of a mess if possible, compared to last time ;)

Hype! Will be keeping tabs on this tier again. Thanks for putting up survey

 

[Adriyun]

Zrp200 is the new Tier Leader!​

Hello! Runo is stepping down as Tier Leader, so I'm taking over instead!!!!! Scary, right?

I've updated most of the resources to reflect changes in legality and moved the role compendium to the top of this thread.

Tiering Survey​

We've been meaning to do a post-NDOTSL survey on the tier, but due to unforeseen delays we've only completed the survey now!

I'm interested in what people who've played the tier before think about the state of the metagame, at least prior to the latest shifts, as well as the current pace of quickbans.

Pinging everyone who played at least one game in this format in NDOTSL

Runo JustCallMeFish Mom Lover veti swinubfan123 ARTYMASION FadedCharm Poosh_i Adriyun Elvira teamo

We may not have any active events right now, but we're in the running for a spotlight ladder for next month, so I'd like to try to make the metagame a little bit less of a mess if possible, compared to last time ;)

about time that shitter runo stepped down

 

[FishyRoads]

Zrp200 is the new Tier Leader!​

Hello! Runo is stepping down as Tier Leader, so I'm taking over instead!!!!! Scary, right?

I've updated most of the resources to reflect changes in legality and moved the role compendium to the top of this thread.

Tiering Survey​

We've been meaning to do a post-NDOTSL survey on the tier, but due to unforeseen delays we've only completed the survey now!

I'm interested in what people who've played the tier before think about the state of the metagame, at least prior to the latest shifts, as well as the current pace of quickbans.

Pinging everyone who played at least one game in this format in NDOTSL

Runo JustCallMeFish Mom Lover veti swinubfan123 ARTYMASION FadedCharm Poosh_i Adriyun Elvira teamo

We may not have any active events right now, but we're in the running for a spotlight ladder for next month, so I'd like to try to make the metagame a little bit less of a mess if possible, compared to last time ;)

Hopefully the tier can get into a playable state after months!!

 

[OceanicGamer]

Zrp200 is the new Tier Leader!​

Hello! Runo is stepping down as Tier Leader, so I'm taking over instead!!!!! Scary, right?

I've updated most of the resources to reflect changes in legality and moved the role compendium to the top of this thread.

Tiering Survey​

We've been meaning to do a post-NDOTSL survey on the tier, but due to unforeseen delays we've only completed the survey now!

I'm interested in what people who've played the tier before think about the state of the metagame, at least prior to the latest shifts, as well as the current pace of quickbans.

Pinging everyone who played at least one game in this format in NDOTSL

Runo JustCallMeFish Mom Lover veti swinubfan123 ARTYMASION FadedCharm Poosh_i Adriyun Elvira teamo

We may not have any active events right now, but we're in the running for a spotlight ladder for next month, so I'd like to try to make the metagame a little bit less of a mess if possible, compared to last time ;)

Time to fix this place

 

[Runo]

this runo guy fuckin sucked as his job wtf, great change

 

[FishyRoads]

this runo guy fuckin sucked as his job wtf, great change

Even he agrees smh

 

[Pengu]

Zrp200 is the new Tier Leader!​

Hello! Runo is stepping down as Tier Leader, so I'm taking over instead!!!!! Scary, right?

I've updated most of the resources to reflect changes in legality and moved the role compendium to the top of this thread.

Tiering Survey​

We've been meaning to do a post-NDOTSL survey on the tier, but due to unforeseen delays we've only completed the survey now!

I'm interested in what people who've played the tier before think about the state of the metagame, at least prior to the latest shifts, as well as the current pace of quickbans.

Pinging everyone who played at least one game in this format in NDOTSL

Runo JustCallMeFish Mom Lover veti swinubfan123 ARTYMASION FadedCharm Poosh_i Adriyun Elvira teamo

We may not have any active events right now, but we're in the running for a spotlight ladder for next month, so I'd like to try to make the metagame a little bit less of a mess if possible, compared to last time ;)

 

[Zrp200]

Ladder's up folks! Enjoy a tranquil metagame featuring forgetten Ubers such as Giratina-Origin!

This is probably the only Gen 9 meta where you'll seriously see Genesect, Mega Metagross, and Mega Lucario as usable options, you know...

Legality Changes​

Based on a very strong response from the survey (4.375/5), we've decided to unban Zygarde, treating Power Construct Zygarde as Ubers OU and allowing the base 50% forme with Aura Break.

response

It's also come to my attention that Hatterene was Ubers OU by the last shifts but was not declared as such. As such Hatterene is banned.

Tagging dhelmise to implement.

VR Update​

Figured this was as good a time as any to update the VR, which really hasn't been updated in a while.
Discussion of these changes is strongly encouraged.

rises

Spectrier high → top

Arceus-Electric mid → high
Arceus-Poison mid → high
Terapagos mid → high
Toxapex mid → high

Dugtrio low → mid
Iron Bundle low → mid

Arceus-Fighting UR → mid
Ting-Lu UR → mid

Araquanid UR → low
Orthworm UR → low

drops

top → mid

explanation

While this might be a little harsh, Groudon has some difficulty standing out from its peers, all of which have either more useful abilities, more speed, secondary flying typings, or just more versatile movesets.

Arceus-Grass high → mid
Ferrothorn high → mid
Ribombee high → mid
Iron Treads mid → low
Latias-Mega mid → low
Latios-Mega mid → low
Palkia mid → low
Giratina mid → low
Solgaleo mid → low

unranked

Celesteela
Clodsire
Cloyster
Excadrill
Great Tusk
Hydrapple
Kartana
Latias
Rillaboom
Sceptile-Mega
Scream Tail
Tapu Koko
Venusaur

 

[Avira]

Gouging Fire​

Expected Ranking: Mid/High

Gouging Fire is pretty dumb in OU-based tiers.

However, here, we have Groudon. With Groudon we have sun without seriously trying. With sun, we can use Gouging Fire with actual items and use its ability. That's terrifying.
Considering as well that almost every Fire-resistant option is weak to either Ground or Dragon, and Gouging Fire is well equipped to do some serious damage in this metagame.
This thing also happens to completely dumpster regardless of set and otherwise enters easily into various Fire-type moves, which can give this a decent amount of ability to switch in in a given game.

some calcs I found interesting

+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 297-349 (98.6 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Dragon: 440-518 (99 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Z moves setups look promising:
+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Devastating Drake (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 648-764 (128.5 - 151.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Devastating Drake (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 273-322 (89.8 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (Guarenteed after Stealth Rock)
+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Devastating Drake (160 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 424-501 (89.8 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Choice Band should also be fine, though Flare Blitz > Heat Crash is probably the call.

Zrp200, you mentioned your intent to rank Gouging Fire back in September. Is this something you overlooked?

 

[Runo]

Based on a very strong response from the survey (4.375/5), we've decided to unban Zygarde, treating Power Construct Zygarde as Ubers OU and allowing the base 50% forme with Aura Break.

It has come to our attention that tiering Zygarde-Complete/Power Construct from base Zygarde is a breach of tiering policy, as such Zygarde-50% will not be unbanned! Apologizes for the inconvenience.

Speaking as a council member, this doesn't seem like a huge loss, wasn't implemented yet and there wasn't a major need for its presence to begin with. Would've been nice to have but alas.

 

[Zrp200]

It has come to our attention that tiering Zygarde-Complete/Power Construct from base Zygarde is a breach of tiering policy, as such Zygarde-50% will not be unbanned! Apologizes for the inconvenience.

Speaking as a council member, this doesn't seem like a huge loss, wasn't implemented yet and there wasn't a major need for its presence to begin with. Would've been nice to have but alas.

Oh so now I'm told that. The several month-long campaign that led to me not opposing Zygarde being added.... seems to have been well-targeted. Oh well.

Zrp200, you mentioned your intent to rank Gouging Fire back in September. Is this something you overlooked?

Whoops. I'll put it in Low. Since I made that post previously, the fact that it faces so much competition for the same role from Arceus-Dragon made me forget about it. It does have its traits—ability, fire STAB, etc—that might end up justifying its use on a team, though.

 

[Zrp200]

Arceus-Dragon is now banned by unanimous council vote!

There is essentially no defensive counterplay at all to Arceus-Dragon: every single relevant switch-in (read: Magearna) is handled by Flare Blitz, even without considering Tera Fire or possible sun support from Groudon, which gives Arceus-Dragon's Outrage deceptive spammability and devolves games with it into confusion RNG checks, one-off tera/z 50/50s. Relying on Outrage's locking behavior isn't good either, as Arceus-Dragon is not only bulky enough to avoid getting OHKOed by almost any attack, but it also can and does run Z sets to remove this drawback. The few remaining checks require Tera to work at all and only work for the single turn that the tera is active to either waste Z or exploit it after Arceus-Dragon has already gotten a KO with Outrage.

tagging dhelmise to implement.

 

[Avira]

Runo, can you and the NatDex Ubers UU Council please justify why simply banning Power Construct wasn't on the table? For the sake of my argument, NatDex Ubers UU has retained the policy from Gens 6 and 7 of OU and NatDex formats from Gen 8 onward to tier Mega Evolutions separately from their base forms, which is why Mega Blaziken is NatDex Ubers UUBL instead of Blaziken as if you're using Blazikenite, you fully intend to use Mega Blaziken even if you never get the chance to mega evolve to it in the match. Thus, following that logic if you're using Power Construct on your Zygarde-50% or 10%, you fully intend to use Zygarde-Complete even if your Zygarde gets KOed from full. That was the logic for banning Power Construct outright in OU (was this also the case for NatDex OU? I don't remember whether Zygarde was ever allowed in NatDex).

Also of note is that as this is an Ubers format, it's in the spirit of such a tier to allow as much as possible in its format, and disallowing Zygarde 50% and 10% from being used in NatDex Ubers UU is against the normal framework of an Ubers-related tier. Perhaps the council of this unofficial tier simply isn't familiar with Ubers having fewer restrictions than other formats, but if that's the case, maybe there needs to be a correction. Hence, I don't believe there is a good justification for not allowing Zygarde 50% and Zygarde 10%, the latter of which isn't even top tier in NatDex RU (Power Construct is banned there), to be playable in NatDex Ubers UU when you have banned Mega Blaziken rather than Blaziken itself in this tier. Thus, I urge those involved to please consider this argument and free Zygarde-50% and Zygarde-10%. If Zygarde-50% ends up being broken, which I doubt it will be, you can just ban it.

No serious player intends to use Aura Break Zygarde in Ubers. If they are, they're memeing, lying, or trolling. The mental gymnastics involved in having Power Contract be banned in a lower tier but not the tier directly below that which Zygarde-Complete resides in is somewhat unbelievable. If Zygarde-Complete is what players who actually bring Zygarde intend to use in Ubers, then Zygarde 50% and Zygarde 10% should be tiered separately than Zygarde-Complete. Ash-Greninja in Gen 7 and NatDex OU was also treated as a completely separate Pokemon from Greninja, and the treatment the Zygarde forms gets is the outlier from how everything else is treated as seen with Mega Evolutions and Ash-Greninja. I urge the NatDex Ubers UU Council to bring back consistency to the ruleset, freeing the Zygarde 50% and 10% in the process.

 

[veti]

Avira A PS admin told us that the Zygarde 50% unban was against policy, and it was for a valid reason. Zygarde 10% has been and is still legal, its just unviable and hasn't been talked about.

Both Zygarde abilities are the same Pokemon in the usage stats, meaning that they are both tiered Ubers OU, situation is similar to how various UU tiers can't just unban Mega Garchomp because Garchomp is an OU Pokemon even if the Mega form isn't, but even then Mega Garchomp is a different mon on usage stats while both Zygarde-50% abilities aren't even separated.

The reason OU was allowed to ban Power Construct but not Zygarde as a whole a few times is because that was a normal ability ban, not unbanning a Pokemon thats in a higher tier by usage.

 

[Avira]

Avira A PS admin told us that the Zygarde 50% unban was against policy, and it was for a valid reason. Zygarde 10% has been and is still legal, its just unviable and hasn't been talked about.

Both Zygarde abilities are the same Pokemon in the usage stats, meaning that they are both tiered Ubers OU, situation is similar to how various UU tiers can't just unban Mega Garchomp because Garchomp is an OU Pokemon even if the Mega form isn't, but even then Mega Garchomp is a different mon on usage stats while both Zygarde-50% abilities aren't even separated.

The reason OU was allowed to ban Power Construct but not Zygarde as a whole a few times is because that was a normal ability ban, not unbanning a Pokemon thats in a higher tier by usage.

That's why I'm bringing this up as the treatment the Zygarde forms gets is different than what Mega Evolutions and Ash-Greninja get. Mega Charizard X is tiered as OU in Gen 7, not regular Charizard despite needing the PUBL base form to be able to Mega Evolve. Ash-Greninja is tiered separately from Greninja 'cause Battle Bond Greninja was coded as an entirely different Pokemon in Gen 7. Even if you never get to Mega Evolve to Mega Charizard X or transform into Ash-Greninja, both of which are in-game transformations, 'cause your Charizard (a PUBL mon) or Greninja was KOed beforehand, you fully intended to use Mega Charizard X and Ash-Greninja, and the usage stats back that up with them being tiered separately. That is why I am questioning why this discrepancy exists.

This is even more of problem that you're allowing Zygarde-10% and just preventing it from using Power Construct while denying that to the 50% form. Maybe the PS administrator who told the NatDex Ubers UU council that just doesn't understand Smogon tiering. As I said before, anyone who brings Zygarde in Ubers intends to use Power Construct Zygarde-Complete, not Aura Break Zygarde, which is similar to how Charizard remained PUBL in Gen 7 while Zard X and Y were OU. If both Zygarde abilities are the same Pokemon in the usage stats, then maybe the usage stats should use the same script that separated Ash-Greninja and regular Greninja's usage to tier Power Construct Zygarde and other Zygarde forms differently. Then that problem would be gone. I reckon if this was brought to the attention of Smogon's founder, chaos, he would okay Zygarde 50% being in this tier.

 

[Poosh_i]

That's why I'm bringing this up as the treatment the Zygarde forms gets is different than what Mega Evolutions and Ash-Greninja get. Mega Charizard X is tiered as OU in Gen 7, not regular Charizard despite needing the PUBL base form to be able to Mega Evolve. Ash-Greninja is tiered separately from Greninja 'cause Battle Bond Greninja was coded as an entirely different Pokemon in Gen 7. Even if you never get to Mega Evolve to Mega Charizard X or transform into Ash-Greninja, both of which are in-game transformations, 'cause your Charizard (a PUBL mon) or Greninja was KOed beforehand, you fully intended to use Mega Charizard X and Ash-Greninja, and the usage stats back that up with them being tiered separately. That is why I am questioning why this discrepancy exists.

This is even more of problem that you're allowing Zygarde-10% and just preventing it from using Power Construct while denying that to the 50% form. Maybe the PS administrator who told the NatDex Ubers UU council that just doesn't understand Smogon tiering. As I said before, anyone who brings Zygarde in Ubers intends to use Power Construct Zygarde-Complete, not Aura Break Zygarde, which is similar to how Charizard remained PUBL in Gen 7 while Zard X and Y were OU. If both Zygarde abilities are the same Pokemon in the usage stats, then maybe the usage stats should use the same script that separated Ash-Greninja and regular Greninja's usage to tier Power Construct Zygarde and other Zygarde forms differently. Then that problem would be gone. I reckon if this was brought to the attention of Smogon's founder, chaos, he would okay Zygarde 50% being in this tier.

You're missing the key point here that veti just brought up. Zygarde itself is tiered Ubers proper. OU can get away with an ability ban because it is a tier that is not directly under Ubers (hint, that's the entire reason why the Ubers UU tiers exist). You can't just ban an ability on a pokemon and arbitrarily drop it to a lower tier based off of that alone. I understand there is some contention about Zygarde and event pokemon shenanigans but that's a whole separate policy thread discussion. Zygarde cannot be dropped as is.

Anyways, this tier needs more bans right now as is, not more stuff trying to be freed. I plan on making a post proper soon about my thoughts and I know that vesp is planning the same.

 

[Runo]

That's why I'm bringing this up as the treatment the Zygarde forms gets is different than what Mega Evolutions and Ash-Greninja get. Mega Charizard X is tiered as OU in Gen 7, not regular Charizard despite needing the PUBL base form to be able to Mega Evolve. Ash-Greninja is tiered separately from Greninja 'cause Battle Bond Greninja was coded as an entirely different Pokemon in Gen 7. Even if you never get to Mega Evolve to Mega Charizard X or transform into Ash-Greninja, both of which are in-game transformations, 'cause your Charizard (a PUBL mon) or Greninja was KOed beforehand, you fully intended to use Mega Charizard X and Ash-Greninja, and the usage stats back that up with them being tiered separately. That is why I am questioning why this discrepancy exists.

This is even more of problem that you're allowing Zygarde-10% and just preventing it from using Power Construct while denying that to the 50% form. Maybe the PS administrator who told the NatDex Ubers UU council that just doesn't understand Smogon tiering. As I said before, anyone who brings Zygarde in Ubers intends to use Power Construct Zygarde-Complete, not Aura Break Zygarde, which is similar to how Charizard remained PUBL in Gen 7 while Zard X and Y were OU. If both Zygarde abilities are the same Pokemon in the usage stats, then maybe the usage stats should use the same script that separated Ash-Greninja and regular Greninja's usage to tier Power Construct Zygarde and other Zygarde forms differently. Then that problem would be gone. I reckon if this was brought to the attention of Smogon's founder, chaos, he would okay Zygarde 50% being in this tier

Ash-Greninja is tiered separately from Greninja 'cause Battle Bond Greninja was coded as an entirely different Pokemon in Gen 7 ... the usage stats back that up with them being tiered separately

While your statements on Mega Evolutions being tiered separately are indeed correct, other in-game battle transformations (such as Keldeo) are treated as the same pokemon according to tiering policy. Greninja and Ash-Greninja fall under that umbrella as well. To refresh people's memory since there is clearly misinformation being spread: Ash-Greninja was never intended to be tiered seperately and to my knowledge it never officially has outside of blatant glitches that were identified by members of the community. Even in Gen 7, all of Greninja's usage is merged into one mon which can be verifed here by a ctrl + f search of Greninja: https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-11/gen7ou-0.txt. The same holds true from gen 8 national dex formats and it's only in early gen 9 where its seen with split usage (again, this was not an intentional implementation and was fixed immediately).

This is even more of problem that you're allowing Zygarde-10% and just preventing it from using Power Construct while denying that to the 50% form.

There is absolutely zero issue with allowing Zygarde-10% into the tier because it is clearly labled as a different pokemon in regards to the usage stats thanks to it being an out of battle form. Zygarde-C is notably an in-battle transformation that can be abused by both Zygarde formes so it made sense to ban the ability as a whole. This doesn't change the fact that Zygarde-50% still has stats to back up it's Ubers OU placement when combining their abilities.

Both of these are highlighting the main point that a pokemon's usage is not split by their abilities' individual usage. There's frankly no standing precedent that says otherwise and to create it from thin air raises more questions of tiering single form mons with multiple abilities (Ho-oh, Lugia, Ditto, Dondozo, Smeargle, etc). Specificly for Zygarde; it's not as simple of just saying "Zygarde-C is OU". By spliting the usage stats like this, you are claiming instead that "Zygarde-50% with Power Construct is OU while Zygarde-50% with Aura Break isn't", so fundamentally the same pokemon is somehow in two seperate tiers at once. Zrp200 pointed out in private that both Ash-Greninja and Zygarde with Power Construct are technically considered different mons compared to Base-Greninja and the Zygardes but Smogon policy (because they don't tier by ability) treats them all as the same pokemon.

If you wanted to get clarification on why this happened or voice discontent then that is your right to ask. I don't understand why you are calling Council and PS Admins' understanding of tiering into question in your two posts however and it is completely out of line. Please do not use unproductive language like this.

Given the information veti Poosh_i and myself posted in addition with PS Admin's straight up decline to implement Zygarde-50%'s unban. We will not be unbanning it period.

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As much as I love talking about tiering policy crisies, I would much prefer this thread be focused on aspects we can currently take action on. For example: What does the community think about Chien-Pao and Spectrier as of late?

 

[bikukle)]

why is giratina-origin, a mon that is a+ in ndubers, allowed here? is it because of the usage stats?

 

[veti]

why is giratina-origin, a mon that is a+ in ndubers, allowed here? is it because of the usage stats?

National Dex Ubers ladder just didn't use it so Giratina dropped by usage. It is already guaranteed at this point to rise back up because of how high its usage is and its just a matter of three weeks for tier shifts to come out.