Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Toxic Ariados]

This conversation is cool so I may as well throw my hat in the ring, too.

I think Roaring Moon is probably the tamest thing that people want to test down. Its typing is absolutely laced with weaknesses, and though its defenses aren't really bad, they do leave a bit to be desired. I think Dragon Z could prove to be a devastating force, especially with Sun support, but Roaring Moon seems very prone to chip with all its weaknesses, revenge killing it shouldn't be too difficult, especially with all the Medichams, Kingambits, and Lopunnys running rampant. I would like to see this guy come back to OU. I think it is worthy of a test, if Dragon Z proves to be too lethal, then I will respectfully concede, but I'd like to see it in action before making conclusions.

I've ran some test battles against Moisture99 who used this guy against me, and honestly? Palafin doesn't seem THAT bad to me. Though we only had like, 3 battles, which is a very small sample size, I'm a bit on the fence regarding this one, I initially gave it a 2 on the survey but I wish I could revoke that. I'd probably give it a 4 after a bit more thought, I don't think testing it would be necessarily bad. Under Rain it feels like a slower but more destructive Barraskewda. Kamikaze sets with Wave Crash will probably be common on Rain, but I bet some people will try using a Bulk Up build, which I think is Palafin's best set. I don't think kamikaze banded Wave Crash sets are that great if I'm being honest. You get worn down very easily and making the wrong call and crashing into a Ferro will lead to quite a lot of pain. However, Bulk Up Palafin might just be Scizor EX. You have a 60 BP Priority move, great bulk, and a strong Attack stat. Having to switch out at least once to gain its hero form isn't difficult, but you do give the opponent a chance to place hazards, set up, or catch the thing you want to switch in to. I personally think that Palafin might be a bit too strong for OU. I'd love to be proven wrong though, without Tera to supercharge its power, I'd like to see a suspect test on it eventually.

 

[Toxic Ariados]

I saw your game vs this dude with sub mence and it destroyed you

Now that one was a low blow... (Yeah, I'm not very proud of that, RIP my dignity in that game, it definitely could've been played better lol, it was basically a reincarnation of that one game where blunder got 6-0d by lead sub Salamence.)

Now, if Roaring Moon wanted to run Substitute, it would have to drop one of its three valuable move slots, assuming it's also running Dragon Dance. Going for Knock + Earthquake is probably the best combo, as Knock + Acrobatics means you get bullied by Kingambit. Substitute is also difficult to use for Moon (at least on paper) because of its Bug weakness, you really have to be confident that the opponent is gonna switch out and not click U-Turn, making you waste a good chunk of your HP. I'll admit that Dragon Z makes me question a bit of my judgment regarding Moon, though I think it might have some difficulty setting up on offensive teams due to its many prevalent weaknesses, and defensive teams might have something like Zamazenta to sponge the Dragon Z, Zamazenta still gets KO'd by a proto boosted +1 adamant Z though, so it'll probably punch some holes in fatter teams by netting a KO or two. Against Pokemon like Moon, you can't afford to play fully defensively, you gotta take a few risks by whittling it down as it tries to set up a sweep, most DD sweepers are like that. It goes to show how deadly Dragon Dance is as a move.

And yeah, I think Moon was arguably the tamest thing on the survey. I was surprised to see Sneasler of all things pop up on the list, seriously, screw that thing. Dire Claw is cheese incarnate, same with Darkrai & Z Hypnosis.

 

[thebestever543]

Annihilape has the best generation 9 model.

However,

Rage Fist is still certain to be broken.

Part of the reason it was so frustrating to begin with,

is because it created awkward mind games.

Taking direct damage boost the power of Rage Fist by 50 base power (BP).

Ex: Clicking U-Turn or Flip Turn and hitting Annihilape will boost Rage Fist.

Also means that it can effectively boost its damage verses Unaware Pokemon (none resist ghost).

On top of that, it has amazing stab, solid stat distribution and a strong abilitiy!

Rest/Taunt sets seem really stupid and unreasonable for fat to deal.

Outside Rage Fist, this Pokemon would 100% be balanced!

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Annihilape has the best generation 9 model.

However,

Rage Fist is still certain to be broken.

Part of the reason it was so frustrating to begin with,

is because it created awkward mind games.

Taking direct damage boost the power of Rage Fist by 50 base power (BP).

Ex: Clicking U-Turn or Flip Turn and hitting Annihilape will boost Rage Fist.

Also means that it can effectively boost its damage verses Unaware Pokemon (none resist ghost).

On top of that, it has amazing stab, solid stat distribution and a strong abilitiy!

Rest/Taunt sets seem really stupid and unreasonable for fat to deal.

Outside Rage Fist, this Pokemon would 100% be balanced!

fym No unaware mon resists Ghost? You can't just go there and disrespect my boy Bibarel like that? where your ethics at? on a more serious note I dont think people realize how more defensive the tier has became. Unban things, they're going to be balanced, one should not fear this. seriously bc dis tier is starting to look wayyy too much like SS and god knows how SS deserves hate

 

[Faux Focalors Furina]

View attachment 692941

*turns into a wet blanket*
Based on the meme, I assume you mean the fact that Bibarel is part normal meaning it can get countered by annihilapes fighting moves. Most notably drain punch. Am I right or misguided?

EDIT: I think Close Combat > Drain Punch is much worthy but then again annihilape wants to run drain punch for getting some heals off. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Moisture99]

Why Palafin is (probably) not broken and should be one of the first three suspects

Introduction
I really don't like many arguments against this mon. Listing off the characteristics of a Pokemon does not prove its brokenness unless applied in the context of the metagame, not analysed in the vacuum that is the world of stat spreads and movepools. Palafin will be broken or not broken depending on how much counterplay exists in the metagame it finds itself in.

Band

Moveset: Crash/Flip/Jet/CC (or Ice Punch/Throat Chop/Zen but realistically always CC)
TLDR: Only good (but not unreasonably so) into offense, flip turn bot into most balance and fat

Specific Defensive Counterplay
Regen waters:
- Notes:
1. The majority of balance/slower teams will carry one of these regardless of Palafin, and these existence of these three mons is one of its biggest obstacles
2. All at most 3HKOd by Wave Crash, all never OHKOd by coverage, so it is very difficult for Band Palafin to make progress vs these mons because they have Regenerator
Regen grasses:
- Notes:
1. Niche, but they do have their place on balance/slower teams for specific threats such as Ogerpon. I also believe Hydrapple is underrated
2. All at most 3HKOd by Wave Crash, all never OHKOd by coverage except Ice Punch for Hydrapple
Others (not amazing standalone): (loses to CC but it’s a big reason why CC as 4th is almost forced, heavily punishes water clicks)
(needs more bulk investment)

Specific Offensive Counterplay
Dragons: (emergency)
Grasses: (the big one)
Other:

General Counterplay/Limitations
- Hazards: especially if you use the initial switch in as free rocks opportunity
- Recoil: every move is contact and its switch ins frequently run helmet, wave crash has recoil
- Momentum: this mon must come in twice to actually become a threat and if you look at the metagame, there’s not much it can come in on without negligible punishment, which is particularly important given its distinct lack of longevity

- Nothing here is really foolproof but it doesn't necessarily need to be as offense can get away with this, and you frequently more than one of these mons on a single team

- Offensive counterplay is prediction reliant (especially vs Ogerpon-W, who is OHKOd by CC but its very existence stops Palafin from clicking freely) and possibly set reliant in case of the dragons, but you could say this about Ogerpon-W and especially Urshifu-R too, and offense deals with both fine in practice

- 252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 238-281 (75 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wow, that’s terrible! Yeah, but people also switch their Pult into Zard-Y against which it is similarly cleanly 2HKOed lol. Point is, Pult is an emergency check, and taking one hit is usually good enough for the offensive teams that rely on it for such duties e.g. to land a wisp or drop ghostium. Take it from someone who mains and spams these offense teams.

- This mon will not get that many opportunities against offense due to the initial switch essentially leaving you one turn behind the entire game, which is not easy to recover from as offense is a heavily momentum based playstyle

- I think Scarf sets will exist, so you don’t have to run 3 water moves and can thus fit Ice Punch. However, this also means you don’t OHKO as many things and so there’s a lot more stuff that you don’t 1v1 on offense, which is a fair trade off

- I think Agility sets could also exist (e.g. Agility/Crash/CC/Zen) but they run into the same issue with regen waters and grasses (pex is 2HKOd by Zen Headbutt, but can land a toxic), while also requiring a turn to set up an agility and having far reduced immediate power.

- By the way, you can't drop Flip Turn on Band, otherwise you can't even pivot on stuff that checks you! It's probably better to just flip turn into Raging Bolt or Kingambit instead of doing 60% (so 30% net due to regen) to Slowbro with Throat Chop.

What about support?
Fsight
- Not a unique quality of Palafin, it enables pretty much any mon that is checked by physically fat stuff such as Boots/CB Zamazenta.
- Urshifu-R and Ogerpon-W can also (famously Urshifu) break their checks with fsight. Palafin doesn’t even beat Slowbro with Fsight too.
- If the issue is that Palafin breaking through its checks is unreasonably punishing…? No, e.g. if you lose your Waterpon/Shifu switch in on balance you probably also have to pick one almost every time they come in, Palafin is just more flashy (and self-destructive) about it.

Pursuit
- Again, not a unique quality of Palafin
- This really only applies to Slowbro, because the other guys can just regen off Pursuit chip.
- Slowbro is one of the hardest mons to pursuit trap, because no trapper wants to switch into scald, tport is one of the freest clicks in the game, it can easily tech body press, it can easily tech colbur berry, and it doesn’t even need colbur berry to 1v1 gambit. Plus it straight up lives Pursuit anyway.

Rain
- This argument personally annoys me so I’m gonna yap about it. There are better ways of arguing Palafin’s potential brokeness than lazily pointing at ‘wow rain makes water type stronger!’ It’s like saying Chi-Yu is broken because of Sun

- Rain is hard enough to build as is now that Tera is gone, making its defensive fragility really begin to show. For example, dropping Zapdos or Tornadus means Pelipper is your only answer to ID Zama (not a particularly great one), but dropping Bolt makes Zard-Y much scarier (Pelipper is 2HKOed by Weather Ball after Stealth Rock).

- Now consider how difficult it is fitting something like Palafin, which provides no novel defensive utility not already covered by another water type such as Swampert/Pelipper/Manaphy (niche pick), shares the same checks as your Swift Swimmer (and overwhelming Regen mons like you do against something like Lando is significantly harder because they have reliable passive recovery), is a massive momentum sink on a team that lives or dies off momentum… while not even being able to always break your checks that well anyway.

252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Rain: 234-276 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
(this is particularly bad because Alo can stall out your rain with protect or wish unless you get the roll, and if rain band pala ever somehow becomes a thing, it is reasonable for alo to adapt by running max hp)
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth in Rain: 174-205 (43 - 50.7%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
(the others do get 2HKOd by Crash)

- Looks good, right? Until you realise that you really should be getting more for just how insanely difficult it is to fit, let alone activate and position this mon. And getting a kill means you lose around half your HP in the process, especially if they are carrying Helmet, in which case you lose like 80% of it. Rain mons should aim to trade for more than 1 to 1 because Pelipper is not an OU level mon in itself and because they are harder to position compared to regular teams. Yeah ok, sure maybe you can use Palafin to break Alo for MPert (if you can make a team like this and not be extremely weak to some threat, I applaud you), but if your opponent is smart, they’ll realise that there are always useless mons vs Rain and probably a combination of mons that can beat Rain on their own (if the team is well built). So, in the worst case, they’ll just sack their useless mon e.g. Heatran after it’s set rocks, and take your Palafin down to half after scouting with Alo.

- Power simply isn’t rain’s issue and the work invested for something that realistically trades at most 1-1 or 1-1.5 is simply not worth it.

Bulk Up + Drain Punch

BU/Drain/Jet/Taunt (or Sub) (the set that got it banned last time)
TLDR: shit set
Specific Counterplay
Waters: (super goobs) (scald stalls out taunt Palafin, pp stalls sub) (flips to offensive check e.g. wisp pult) (psynoise, or go to offensive check) (wins with body press)
Grasses:
(they click their stab)
Electrics: (easily lives +1 Jet)
Dragons: (super duper cooks it with wisp) (eats Drain)
Others: (phys def cooks this) (lmao) (specs tbolt, or just encore, if Jet Punch switch to resist)
General Counterplay
- I don’t feel the need to elaborate too extensively on this because it should be self-evident why this set is NOT it without tera
- There’s probably a ton of stuff that can 1v1 this such as Z-Chomp
- This shit is so bad without being able to tera into like 5 possible types, you could legitimately pivot lando to mess with it
- Way too greedy and slow
- No style should be losing to this without being heavily outplayed

Z-sets

Z-sets
TLDR: nothing unreasonable in the context of what z-crystals usually enable
This is where it gets a little bit murky, so I will not include a list of counterplay here and instead discuss it in a more in-depth fashion. (waterium does nothing for it btw)

BU + Psychium
This is the main set with the potential to be problematic in my opinion. I’ve tried out this set in friendlies:

Palafin-Hero @ Psychium Z
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jet Punch / Wave Crash
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt

and it is the least likely to be dead weight in my experience. The point is +1 Shattered Psyche OHKOs Toxapex and Amoonguss… but I was mainly thinking of Toxapex when I made it. Does this make it broken? I would argue no.
1. The elephant in the room is that it still fails to break Alo and absolutely fails to break Slowbro… but let’s focus on the case where it is Pex anyway, just to drill in how not broken this mon is.
2. If this set becomes popular, which I think it will because it’s the one of the only ones that don’t straight up thud into balance, scouting will become a reasonable course of action. Not only that, absolute worst case where you somehow have absolutely no way of dealing with this mon outside of Pex but yet must run Pex anyway, you could run Payapa Berry (some teams did this for MMedi back in the day too) to land a toxic or haze. I’m not advocating for this because it is probably a shit item, but I’m just throwing it out there so you understand how much room for counterplay there is.
3. You are still unlikely to instantly lose to Palafin even if you lose your Pex. For example, you can go Wisp Pult and burn it (Wisp Pult in general just absolutely destroys this mon). You can go to Tapu Koko and Tbolt OHKO. You could go to Raging Bolt, eat any hit, and OHKO back. Specs Iron Valiant can also come in and Tbolt. You could go to stuff like Scarf Lele or Urshifu if it’s chipped. You could go to ID Zama and start setting up. This is the worst case scenario btw: where you get fished by the right Palafin set and you fail to bait/account for Z.
4. A mon breaking its check with the right Z-move? This is nothing new. Garchomp does it with Z-Dragon or Z-Rock. Dragonite still does it with Z-Dragon. Lele can do it with Z-Fight. Bolt can do it with Z-Dragon. Maybe the distinction here is that Palafin is more likely to outright sweep…? Except it actually isn’t due to the reasons mentioned before, and not only that, Palafin doesn’t even break all of its checks with this Z lol.
5. The offense matchup is also fine. Really, the main issue with the offense MU still remains the momentum loss. Further, Jet Punch has much less immediate power than with CB and its speed tier still remains not amazing. Wisp Pult still goobs it, lots of stuff on offense doesn’t let it set up for free. Absolute worst case you bring in Zama on a sack and start clicking ID lol, or go Oger and click Power Whip.
These are other Z-sets I considered:

Palafin-Hero @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jet Punch / Wave Crash
- Close Combat
- Taunt / Zen Headbutt

This doesn’t really do much lol, just look at this:
+2 252+ Atk Palafin-Hero All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 441-519 (82.5 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 doesn’t even OHKO is crazy… also you’re not getting that many free turns without them flipping into an offensive check such as wisp pult

Palafin-Hero @ Icium Z
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jet Punch / Wave Crash
- Close Combat / Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch
This set kind of just ignores the regen water issue and targets the grasses. Which is cool and all, except that you usually pair the regen grasses with regen waters anyway… And as I said before, breaking an otherwise check with a mon you dedicated your z slot to is nothing new.

Grassium???
The only feasible way Palafin can break through both Alo and Bro is through Z Grass Knot. Which is… certainly something.
0 SpA Palafin-Hero Bloom Doom (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 448-528 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Palafin-Hero Bloom Doom (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 290-342 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is a heavy fish set that does nothing into its other checks while also not OHKOing without prior chip (though I suppose this isn’t too hard to achieve). I mean, I guess you could run some investment to guarantee an OHKO on Alo (it’s not guaranteed on Bro even with max spatk at which point u might as well go full special with that absolutely groundbreaking base 106 spatk). Again, it is unlikely Palafin instantly sweeps if they break ur Alo/Bro, especially with the heavy concessions made by running an otherwise garbage set. By the way, SD Electrium Shifu does the same thing but better and that set does not come close to breaking it

Value

I am not a fan of value-based arguments, but I also understand my audience… you people want to see what the mon provides to the tier. Well, Palafin would definitely provide what most would define as ‘value’ to the tier.
1. Unconditional water-type priority
Our most powerful priority is Tclap and Sucker Punch. Both are amazing moves on amazing mons, but they are conditional. Palafin would provide a unique option in ignoring 50/50s with stuff like Sub or Encore and serve as one of the most reliable revenge killers in the tier. Further, powerful physical water prio ruins Volc’s day (a big threat rn), can revenge kill Valiant after CC drops/chip, Great Tusk after it spins, and even allow for some more counterplay against Gambit sucker.
2. Role compression
It seems like anti-offense attributes qualify as value (which slightly disappoints me as an offense main but I’m here to cater to my audience). Palafin compresses both speed control and breaking power, distinguishing it from Ogerpon-W and Urshifu-R, though at the cost of a secondary stab. Good 100/97/87 bulk is quite usable for tanking random hits like Gambit sucker in a pinch, so there is some nice defensive utility there. Ogerpon has worse mixed bulk, while Urshifu-R has non-existent spdef, so this is another healthy distinction from them.
3. Added teambuilding pressure is far from unreasonable, and is in fact outweighed by the positives
It also doesn’t really strain teambuilding very much, and I would argue it is a net positive. The mons you run to check Shifu and Oger are the mons you run to check Palafin, except the list is actually more expansive in the latter case. The mons balance runs today are the mons that happen to also goob Palafin e.g. Alo, Pex, Mvenu (as a secondary check)... and many of the mons that check it on offense, are also some of the most viable today.

Conclusion

Conclusion
To me, Palafin is one of the least broken mons on the list. Even for mons currently in the tier… Palafin is less restrictive than Dragapult. It has more consistent checks than Iron Valiant. It has more defensive counterplay than Ogerpon-Wellspring. I would not mind freeing Roaring Moon first though as that’s just another offensive Palafin check added to the mix. I am slightly worried about the 60% majority that is required, because analysis of this mon is usually reduced to its ridiculous stats and the highly unrepresentative 2022 meta (which had tera btw) without considering the weaknesses of a mono water offensive typing, the loss of momentum in its activation, its 4MSS issue, and the fact that its checks are numerous, splashable, and the defensive ones have incredible longevity. With how metagame discussion can sometimes be, I sincerely hope you read this post and apply some critical thinking instead of flippantly dismissing the idea. If you agree, that’s cool. If you disagree, that’s also cool. Let’s just all be respectful. If anyone wants, I can include some test replays (but they should not really be fully relied upon for obvious reasons).

 

[Cyber-DJ]

TL;DR: Yes to a Palafin and Roaring Moon retest, no for Annihilape.


Actual comment: I've been on the fence with Palafin for a while since I assumed that it'd be too difficult to answer for standard builds. So, even if it wasn't broken, it'd be meta warping in a way that's pretty lame. But after seeing players like Moisture and Toxic Ariados, i'm starting to see a more clear picture, and that's that Palafin should be fine with stuff that's already good in the tier answering it offensively or defensively. Dare I say, i'm actually looking foward to a Palafin retest, and regret my original voting (I think it was a 2, idk). Bring forth Metro Man's Fishsona. Let's be Bulkpilled and Crashmax the whole tier.

Sadly...I can't say the same for Annihilape. As much as I love this rage-fueled badass, I feel like if we're bringing down the Ape, it isn't a question of "Is Annihilape good for the tier?", it's more like "Is Rage Fist a dynamic we will tolerate?" Maybe i'm just looking at it wrong, but it feels like Annihilape's answers just get invalidated by the broken self insert move, aka Rage Fist. I'll have to pass on asking for an Ape retest, which hurts because I really want to have a Ghost that Kingambit has to respect.

...Roaring Moon is just doing the same thing in CGOU, just with Z moves. We got more priority moves so it should be fine, I think? Someone help fill me in on Moon cuz I don't remember this one's history in the tier.

 

[Wildfiree]

Ok I noticed a lot of unban talk. I think before we consider unbans we need to consider what it brings and what actually answers it. Let’s get into unbans I feel that I’m open to.

1. I am not opposed to bringing back roaring moon we were never able to see it in a meta that it wasn’t enabled by shed tail or being paired with other brokens. I think dropping it now would give us an idea of how it would function in a teraless and more balanced oriented meta. Why I think it would be fine is due the fact it wants multiple items. Booster energy is quite weak on its own and hard to use effectively and more often than not it wants the speed booster which leaves it longing for more power and not as immediately threatening without a dragon dance which it’s not always guaranteed to get off safely. There are also quite a few decent checks to a few that come to mind are , , , and the steel birds. It dropping means we may see a see a resurgence as well.

Roaring moon is the only thing I feel that should get a second shot.


2. Now as as for things such as this Mon is utterly ridiculous it blows through the tier having stab grass and fire coverage with access to mold breaker. Your boy can’t tera out of that weakness either. What about you may ask? Well mold breaker… HELLO? Bro gets Blown up flash fire who? Not only this but it doesn’t even need to run low kick since it destroys all the steels so it can just run play rough to hit targets such as blasting it to oblivion. Freeing this Mon would punish bulkier builds and there would be pretty much zero answers to this thing defensively it would be a nightmare to switch into.


3. im opposed to as well. Although it’s a fine healthy presence in sv ou does not mean it would be here too. With access to z moves this thing becomes a nightmare to deal with (pun intended). People like to talk a lot about the z-hypnosis set but quite frankly that’s not really the set that troubles me. If anyone played vs nasty plot dark z it makes you want to cry.


+2 252 SpA Darkrai Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 372-438 (96.3 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO



+2 252 SpA Darkrai Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Ferrothorn: 394-465 (111.9 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO



+2 252 SpA Darkrai Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 414-487 (57.9 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



That’s not even to speak of the coverage it has which it’s far from being short of examples include focus blast to nail targets such as and . sludge bomb for fairies such as . And even ice beam for Pokemon like .



4. Im just gonna go ahead and lump and together since they effectively similar. Both have taunt bulk up sets which pretty much shit anything slower than it down. Annihlape completely taking on fat by itself and being able to at least trade with offense. People are so quick to say but answer it. But at what cost ? What about everything else ? Pretty much every defensive Mon that’s slower loses you are forced to attack and that in turn boost rage first until the damage gets to 300 base power. (Each hit adds 50 bp) even a small u-turn you get punished for. Palafin is no better while even being better than ape vs offense. Jet punch picking off offensive mons.
This is part one of my post stay tuned.

 

[Moisture99]

Ok I noticed a lot of unban talk. I think before we consider unbans we need to consider what it brings and what actually answers it. Let’s get into unbans I feel that I’m open to.

1. I am not opposed to bringing back roaring moon we were never able to see it in a meta that it wasn’t enabled by shed tail or being paired with other brokens. I think dropping it now would give us an idea of how it would function in a teraless and more balanced oriented meta. Why I think it would be fine is due the fact it wants multiple items. Booster energy is quite weak on its own and hard to use effectively and more often than not it wants the speed booster which leaves it longing for more power and not as immediately threatening without a dragon dance which it’s not always guaranteed to get off safely. There are also quite a few decent checks to a few that come to mind are , , , and the steel birds. It dropping means we may see a see a resurgence as well.

Roaring moon is the only thing I feel that should get a second shot.


2. Now as as for things such as this Mon is utterly ridiculous it blows through the tier having stab grass and fire coverage with access to mold breaker. Your boy can’t tera out of that weakness either. What about you may ask? Well mold breaker… HELLO? Bro gets Blown up flash fire who? Not only this but it doesn’t even need to run low kick since it destroys all the steels so it can just run play rough to hit targets such as blasting it to oblivion. Freeing this Mon would punish bulkier builds and there would be pretty much zero answers to this thing defensively it would be a nightmare to switch into.


3. im opposed to as well. Although it’s a fine healthy presence in sv ou does not mean it would be here too. With access to z moves this thing becomes a nightmare to deal with (pun intended). People like to talk a lot about the z-hypnosis set but quite frankly that’s not really the set that troubles me. If anyone played vs nasty plot dark z it makes you want to cry.


+2 252 SpA Darkrai Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 372-438 (96.3 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO



+2 252 SpA Darkrai Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Ferrothorn: 394-465 (111.9 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO



+2 252 SpA Darkrai Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 414-487 (57.9 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



That’s not even to speak of the coverage it has which it’s far from being short of examples include focus blast to nail targets such as and . sludge bomb for fairies such as . And even ice beam for Pokemon like .



4. Im just gonna go ahead and lump and together since they effectively similar. Both have taunt bulk up sets which pretty much shit anything slower than it down. Annihlape completely taking on fat by itself and being able to at least trade with offense. People are so quick to say but answer it. But at what cost ? What about everything else ? Pretty much every defensive Mon that’s slower loses you are forced to attack and that in turn boost rage first until the damage gets to 300 base power. (Each hit adds 50 bp) even a small u-turn you get punished for. Palafin is no better while even being better than ape vs offense. Jet punch picking off offensive mons.
This is part one of my post stay tuned.

View attachment 692988

Agree with Moon, but i really wouldn't call Booster Attack weak and Speed Booster will pretty much never be used except on Sun Band.

Anyway, in my opinion, to say Palafin and Annihilape are the same is an extreme oversimplification that lacks nuance and is not at all reflective of what Palafin does. I covered why the Taunt BU set has highly natural and sufficient counterplay in my post and why it is extremely poorly positioned in relation to the current metagame and especially with the lack of tera. If you have any refutations, please share... but the metagame in my view is clearly equipped to handle it and it would not be the reason Palafin is broken if it is. 'Jet Punch picking off offensive mons' - yeah it does that vs chipped mons sure, but it's not really to an unreasonable extent without tera water steroids. Something like Scarf Urshifu does pretty much the same thing while not needing to choose between Wave Crash and Jet Punch when in need of power vs speed while having access to a secondary stab.

Just looking at my builder, these offense teams were built without even accounting for Palafin and they should handle it fine in game (these are just a few examples)
https://pokepast.es/c1e2f707aa7956a3 (every mon here has positive MUs, even lead lando beats it 1v1)
https://pokepast.es/e292b7ee0470060d (fin comes in on nothing safely, it's got issues with urshifu, bolt, pult)
https://pokepast.es/da3c7064c72693a1 (fin is good vs volc, but stuff like pult, zama, oger again all have positive MUs into it)

 

[about15gals]

3. im opposed to as well. Although it’s a fine healthy presence in sv ou does not mean it would be here too. With access to z moves this thing becomes a nightmare to deal with (pun intended). People like to talk a lot about the z-hypnosis set but quite frankly that’s not really the set that troubles me. If anyone played vs nasty plot dark z it makes you want to cry.

also worth mentioning that in SV OU this guy doesn't have access to sleep moves at all

I think palafin should definitely get looked at, still think it shouldn't be in the tier, but it at the very least deserves a look. I'd rather do moon first though since if it does get unbanned it's another dragon type for palafin to worry about, which could make it more ok

ape and rai getting freed is a lmao, keep those guys out i hated them so much

 

[gamer but swag]

Why Palafin is (probably) not broken and should be one of the first three suspects

Introduction
I really don't like many arguments against this mon. Listing off the characteristics of a Pokemon does not prove its brokenness unless applied in the context of the metagame, not analysed in the vacuum that is the world of stat spreads and movepools. Palafin will be broken or not broken depending on how much counterplay exists in the metagame it finds itself in.

Band

Moveset: Crash/Flip/Jet/CC (or Ice Punch/Throat Chop/Zen but realistically always CC)
TLDR: Only good (but not unreasonably so) into offense, flip turn bot into most balance and fat

Specific Defensive Counterplay
Regen waters:
- Notes:
1. The majority of balance/slower teams will carry one of these regardless of Palafin, and these existence of these three mons is one of its biggest obstacles
2. All at most 3HKOd by Wave Crash, all never OHKOd by coverage, so it is very difficult for Band Palafin to make progress vs these mons because they have Regenerator
Regen grasses:
- Notes:
1. Niche, but they do have their place on balance/slower teams for specific threats such as Ogerpon. I also believe Hydrapple is underrated
2. All at most 3HKOd by Wave Crash, all never OHKOd by coverage except Ice Punch for Hydrapple
Others (not amazing standalone): (loses to CC but it’s a big reason why CC as 4th is almost forced, heavily punishes water clicks)
(needs more bulk investment)

Specific Offensive Counterplay
Dragons: (emergency)
Grasses: (the big one)
Other:

General Counterplay/Limitations
- Hazards: especially if you use the initial switch in as free rocks opportunity
- Recoil: every move is contact and its switch ins frequently run helmet, wave crash has recoil
- Momentum: this mon must come in twice to actually become a threat and if you look at the metagame, there’s not much it can come in on without negligible punishment, which is particularly important given its distinct lack of longevity

- Nothing here is really foolproof but it doesn't necessarily need to be as offense can get away with this, and you frequently more than one of these mons on a single team

- Offensive counterplay is prediction reliant (especially vs Ogerpon-W, who is OHKOd by CC but its very existence stops Palafin from clicking freely) and possibly set reliant in case of the dragons, but you could say this about Ogerpon-W and especially Urshifu-R too, and offense deals with both fine in practice

- 252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 238-281 (75 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wow, that’s terrible! Yeah, but people also switch their Pult into Zard-Y against which it is similarly cleanly 2HKOed lol. Point is, Pult is an emergency check, and taking one hit is usually good enough for the offensive teams that rely on it for such duties e.g. to land a wisp or drop ghostium. Take it from someone who mains and spams these offense teams.

- This mon will not get that many opportunities against offense due to the initial switch essentially leaving you one turn behind the entire game, which is not easy to recover from as offense is a heavily momentum based playstyle

- I think Scarf sets will exist, so you don’t have to run 3 water moves and can thus fit Ice Punch. However, this also means you don’t OHKO as many things and so there’s a lot more stuff that you don’t 1v1 on offense, which is a fair trade off

- I think Agility sets could also exist (e.g. Agility/Crash/CC/Zen) but they run into the same issue with regen waters and grasses (pex is 2HKOd by Zen Headbutt, but can land a toxic), while also requiring a turn to set up an agility and having far reduced immediate power.

- By the way, you can't drop Flip Turn on Band, otherwise you can't even pivot on stuff that checks you! It's probably better to just flip turn into Raging Bolt or Kingambit instead of doing 60% (so 30% net due to regen) to Slowbro with Throat Chop.

What about support?
Fsight
- Not a unique quality of Palafin, it enables pretty much any mon that is checked by physically fat stuff such as Boots/CB Zamazenta.
- Urshifu-R and Ogerpon-W can also (famously Urshifu) break their checks with fsight. Palafin doesn’t even beat Slowbro with Fsight too.
- If the issue is that Palafin breaking through its checks is unreasonably punishing…? No, e.g. if you lose your Waterpon/Shifu switch in on balance you probably also have to pick one almost every time they come in, Palafin is just more flashy (and self-destructive) about it.

Pursuit
- Again, not a unique quality of Palafin
- This really only applies to Slowbro, because the other guys can just regen off Pursuit chip.
- Slowbro is one of the hardest mons to pursuit trap, because no trapper wants to switch into scald, tport is one of the freest clicks in the game, it can easily tech body press, it can easily tech colbur berry, and it doesn’t even need colbur berry to 1v1 gambit. Plus it straight up lives Pursuit anyway.

Rain
- This argument personally annoys me so I’m gonna yap about it. There are better ways of arguing Palafin’s potential brokeness than lazily pointing at ‘wow rain makes water type stronger!’ It’s like saying Chi-Yu is broken because of Sun

- Rain is hard enough to build as is now that Tera is gone, making its defensive fragility really begin to show. For example, dropping Zapdos or Tornadus means Pelipper is your only answer to ID Zama (not a particularly great one), but dropping Bolt makes Zard-Y much scarier (Pelipper is 2HKOed by Weather Ball after Stealth Rock).

- Now consider how difficult it is fitting something like Palafin, which provides no novel defensive utility not already covered by another water type such as Swampert/Pelipper/Manaphy (niche pick), shares the same checks as your Swift Swimmer (and overwhelming Regen mons like you do against something like Lando is significantly harder because they have reliable passive recovery), is a massive momentum sink on a team that lives or dies off momentum… while not even being able to always break your checks that well anyway.

252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Rain: 234-276 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
(this is particularly bad because Alo can stall out your rain with protect or wish unless you get the roll, and if rain band pala ever somehow becomes a thing, it is reasonable for alo to adapt by running max hp)
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth in Rain: 174-205 (43 - 50.7%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
(the others do get 2HKOd by Crash)

- Looks good, right? Until you realise that you really should be getting more for just how insanely difficult it is to fit, let alone activate and position this mon. And getting a kill means you lose around half your HP in the process, especially if they are carrying Helmet, in which case you lose like 80% of it. Rain mons should aim to trade for more than 1 to 1 because Pelipper is not an OU level mon in itself and because they are harder to position compared to regular teams. Yeah ok, sure maybe you can use Palafin to break Alo for MPert (if you can make a team like this and not be extremely weak to some threat, I applaud you), but if your opponent is smart, they’ll realise that there are always useless mons vs Rain and probably a combination of mons that can beat Rain on their own (if the team is well built). So, in the worst case, they’ll just sack their useless mon e.g. Heatran after it’s set rocks, and take your Palafin down to half after scouting with Alo.

- Power simply isn’t rain’s issue and the work invested for something that realistically trades at most 1-1 or 1-1.5 is simply not worth it.

Bulk Up + Drain Punch

BU/Drain/Jet/Taunt (or Sub) (the set that got it banned last time)
TLDR: shit set
Specific Counterplay
Waters: (super goobs) (scald stalls out taunt Palafin, pp stalls sub) (flips to offensive check e.g. wisp pult) (psynoise, or go to offensive check) (wins with body press)
Grasses:
(they click their stab)
Electrics: (easily lives +1 Jet)
Dragons: (super duper cooks it with wisp) (eats Drain)
Others: (phys def cooks this) (lmao) (specs tbolt, or just encore, if Jet Punch switch to resist)
General Counterplay
- I don’t feel the need to elaborate too extensively on this because it should be self-evident why this set is NOT it without tera
- There’s probably a ton of stuff that can 1v1 this such as Z-Chomp
- This shit is so bad without being able to tera into like 5 possible types, you could legitimately pivot lando to mess with it
- Way too greedy and slow
- No style should be losing to this without being heavily outplayed

Z-sets

Z-sets
TLDR: nothing unreasonable in the context of what z-crystals usually enable
This is where it gets a little bit murky, so I will not include a list of counterplay here and instead discuss it in a more in-depth fashion. (waterium does nothing for it btw)

BU + Psychium
This is the main set with the potential to be problematic in my opinion. I’ve tried out this set in friendlies:

Palafin-Hero @ Psychium Z
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jet Punch / Wave Crash
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt

and it is the least likely to be dead weight in my experience. The point is +1 Shattered Psyche OHKOs Toxapex and Amoonguss… but I was mainly thinking of Toxapex when I made it. Does this make it broken? I would argue no.
1. The elephant in the room is that it still fails to break Alo and absolutely fails to break Slowbro… but let’s focus on the case where it is Pex anyway, just to drill in how not broken this mon is.
2. If this set becomes popular, which I think it will because it’s the one of the only ones that don’t straight up thud into balance, scouting will become a reasonable course of action. Not only that, absolute worst case where you somehow have absolutely no way of dealing with this mon outside of Pex but yet must run Pex anyway, you could run Payapa Berry (some teams did this for MMedi back in the day too) to land a toxic or haze. I’m not advocating for this because it is probably a shit item, but I’m just throwing it out there so you understand how much room for counterplay there is.
3. You are still unlikely to instantly lose to Palafin even if you lose your Pex. For example, you can go Wisp Pult and burn it (Wisp Pult in general just absolutely destroys this mon). You can go to Tapu Koko and Tbolt OHKO. You could go to Raging Bolt, eat any hit, and OHKO back. Specs Iron Valiant can also come in and Tbolt. You could go to stuff like Scarf Lele or Urshifu if it’s chipped. You could go to ID Zama and start setting up. This is the worst case scenario btw: where you get fished by the right Palafin set and you fail to bait/account for Z.
4. A mon breaking its check with the right Z-move? This is nothing new. Garchomp does it with Z-Dragon or Z-Rock. Dragonite still does it with Z-Dragon. Lele can do it with Z-Fight. Bolt can do it with Z-Dragon. Maybe the distinction here is that Palafin is more likely to outright sweep…? Except it actually isn’t due to the reasons mentioned before, and not only that, Palafin doesn’t even break all of its checks with this Z lol.
5. The offense matchup is also fine. Really, the main issue with the offense MU still remains the momentum loss. Further, Jet Punch has much less immediate power than with CB and its speed tier still remains not amazing. Wisp Pult still goobs it, lots of stuff on offense doesn’t let it set up for free. Absolute worst case you bring in Zama on a sack and start clicking ID lol, or go Oger and click Power Whip.
These are other Z-sets I considered:

Palafin-Hero @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jet Punch / Wave Crash
- Close Combat
- Taunt / Zen Headbutt

This doesn’t really do much lol, just look at this:
+2 252+ Atk Palafin-Hero All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 441-519 (82.5 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 doesn’t even OHKO is crazy… also you’re not getting that many free turns without them flipping into an offensive check such as wisp pult

Palafin-Hero @ Icium Z
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jet Punch / Wave Crash
- Close Combat / Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch
This set kind of just ignores the regen water issue and targets the grasses. Which is cool and all, except that you usually pair the regen grasses with regen waters anyway… And as I said before, breaking an otherwise check with a mon you dedicated your z slot to is nothing new.

Grassium???
The only feasible way Palafin can break through both Alo and Bro is through Z Grass Knot. Which is… certainly something.
0 SpA Palafin-Hero Bloom Doom (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 448-528 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Palafin-Hero Bloom Doom (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 290-342 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is a heavy fish set that does nothing into its other checks while also not OHKOing without prior chip (though I suppose this isn’t too hard to achieve). I mean, I guess you could run some investment to guarantee an OHKO on Alo (it’s not guaranteed on Bro even with max spatk at which point u might as well go full special with that absolutely groundbreaking base 106 spatk). Again, it is unlikely Palafin instantly sweeps if they break ur Alo/Bro, especially with the heavy concessions made by running an otherwise garbage set. By the way, SD Electrium Shifu does the same thing but better and that set does not come close to breaking it

Value

I am not a fan of value-based arguments, but I also understand my audience… you people want to see what the mon provides to the tier. Well, Palafin would definitely provide what most would define as ‘value’ to the tier.
1. Unconditional water-type priority
Our most powerful priority is Tclap and Sucker Punch. Both are amazing moves on amazing mons, but they are conditional. Palafin would provide a unique option in ignoring 50/50s with stuff like Sub or Encore and serve as one of the most reliable revenge killers in the tier. Further, powerful physical water prio ruins Volc’s day (a big threat rn), can revenge kill Valiant after CC drops/chip, Great Tusk after it spins, and even allow for some more counterplay against Gambit sucker.
2. Role compression
It seems like anti-offense attributes qualify as value (which slightly disappoints me as an offense main but I’m here to cater to my audience). Palafin compresses both speed control and breaking power, distinguishing it from Ogerpon-W and Urshifu-R, though at the cost of a secondary stab. Good 100/97/87 bulk is quite usable for tanking random hits like Gambit sucker in a pinch, so there is some nice defensive utility there. Ogerpon has worse mixed bulk, while Urshifu-R has non-existent spdef, so this is another healthy distinction from them.
3. Added teambuilding pressure is far from unreasonable, and is in fact outweighed by the positives
It also doesn’t really strain teambuilding very much, and I would argue it is a net positive. The mons you run to check Shifu and Oger are the mons you run to check Palafin, except the list is actually more expansive in the latter case. The mons balance runs today are the mons that happen to also goob Palafin e.g. Alo, Pex, Mvenu (as a secondary check)... and many of the mons that check it on offense, are also some of the most viable today.

Conclusion

Conclusion
To me, Palafin is one of the least broken mons on the list. Even for mons currently in the tier… Palafin is less restrictive than Dragapult. It has more consistent checks than Iron Valiant. It has more defensive counterplay than Ogerpon-Wellspring. I would not mind freeing Roaring Moon first though as that’s just another offensive Palafin check added to the mix. I am slightly worried about the 60% majority that is required, because analysis of this mon is usually reduced to its ridiculous stats and the highly unrepresentative 2022 meta (which had tera btw) without considering the weaknesses of a mono water offensive typing, the loss of momentum in its activation, its 4MSS issue, and the fact that its checks are numerous, splashable, and the defensive ones have incredible longevity. With how metagame discussion can sometimes be, I sincerely hope you read this post and apply some critical thinking instead of flippantly dismissing the idea. If you agree, that’s cool. If you disagree, that’s also cool. Let’s just all be respectful. If anyone wants, I can include some test replays (but they should not really be fully relied upon for obvious reasons).

252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 180-212 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 194-230 (48 - 56.9%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO

 

[Moisture99]

252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 180-212 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 194-230 (48 - 56.9%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
View attachment 692994

Posting calcs while ignoring the necessary context really doesn't do anything. I've already looked at these calcs anyway but what is important is that they are only 2HKOs, and so the Palafin user still has to work to make progress even in the event that it carries the right coverage because its checks have regenerator and you just go into whatever resists such coverage on your team (which should be there lol). Even if it is a roll for Pex/Slowbro to live Wave Crash after being hit by one of the rare coverage moves, Palafin does not get infinite switch-ins and is exceptionally vulnerable to chip, which still gives you considerable leeway. Worst case palafin picks up a kill after a several switch-ins and predictions but that's not really an outrageous outcome. Even if palafin happens to carry one of the right coverage moves (hard to justify any except CC), and you happen to get fished by it, you still have plenty of room to maneuver around it.

Palafin also only gets 4 moves, 3 of which pretty much have to be water unless you want to sacrifice your offense matchup by dropping Jet Punch or be dead weight into anything you can't break without Flip Turn. I'm not sure how you can fit all of Throat Chop, Ice Punch, Zen Headbutt, and Close Combat on one set but if your pokemon are able to run 8 moves please share your secrets. Yeah, sure its checks can be 2HKOed with the right coverage but Regenerator offsets the impact of this considerably. Note how Alomomola, probably the most common regen water, still isn't broken by anything btw.

Mons such as Ogerpon-W can also do the same thing but to a more severe degree because it's not checked by any regen water, with Oger OHKO/2HKOing dragons with play rough which most teams rely on as their waterpon switch in. And this generally works because gameplay in practice isn't linear and you cannot assume optimal play for only one side. Prediction goes both ways yes, but to say it is not factor is disingenuous. Urshifu-R can technically beat some of its checks with Z-thunder punch but this doesn't make it broken because there is an inherent opportunity costs to running otherwise suboptimal sets to only cover a subset of your counterplay.

 

[ant4456]

I feel like BU + Water + CC + Zen surely beats 95% of the tier singlehandedly, no?

 

[Patar136]

We've come a long way. I remember when I made posts about testing Palafin where nobody took me seriously at all. And here we are saying that it's worth testing out in a tera-less metagame.

Remember, if it's too broken for the tier we can always just ban it to Ubers again. However, I am starting to think that this won't be the case. The positive qualities it would add to teambuilding and how it could help revitalize certain playstyles gives me hope.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Posting calcs while ignoring the necessary context really doesn't do anything. I've already looked at these calcs anyway but what is important is that they are only 2HKOs, and so the Palafin user still has to work to make progress even in the event that it carries the right coverage because its checks have regenerator and you just go into whatever resists such coverage on your team (which should be there lol). Even if it is a roll for Pex/Slowbro to live Wave Crash after being hit by one of the rare coverage moves, Palafin does not get infinite switch-ins and is exceptionally vulnerable to chip, which still gives you considerable leeway. Worst case palafin picks up a kill after a several switch-ins and predictions but that's not really an outrageous outcome. Even if palafin happens to carry one of the right coverage moves (hard to justify any except CC), and you happen to get fished by it, you still have plenty of room to maneuver around it.

Palafin also only gets 4 moves, 3 of which pretty much have to be water unless you want to sacrifice your offense matchup by dropping Jet Punch or be dead weight into anything you can't break without Flip Turn. I'm not sure how you can fit all of Throat Chop, Ice Punch, Zen Headbutt, and Close Combat on one set but if your pokemon are able to run 8 moves please share your secrets. Yeah, sure its checks can be 2HKOed with the right coverage but Regenerator offsets the impact of this considerably. Note how Alomomola, probably the most common regen water, still isn't broken by anything btw.

Mons such as Ogerpon-W can also do the same thing but to a more severe degree because it's not checked by any regen water, with Oger OHKO/2HKOing dragons with play rough which most teams rely on as their waterpon switch in. And this generally works because gameplay in practice isn't linear and you cannot assume optimal play for only one side. Prediction goes both ways yes, but to say it is not factor is disingenuous. Urshifu-R can technically beat some of its checks with Z-thunder punch but this doesn't make it broken because there is an inherent opportunity costs to running otherwise suboptimal sets to only cover a subset of your counterplay.

excellent points. i'd also like to point out that a band palafin user has to really go all-in on clicking coverage moves because it's locking itself into stuff that's very lackluster outside of those specific things it's covering. this wouldn't be too bad if you could also just use a safe spammy midground option, but banded palafin has no safe spammy midground options—jet punch struggles to break fatter structures or resists, wave crash is a nuclear bomb but puts you on a very short timer, flip turn gains you momentum but ticks down the very limited amount of switch-ins that palafin has, and if you run all three of these at once you only get one coverage move and that leaves you with a huge offensive hole against some common water resist or other. there are downsides to all of banded palafin's options and you have to be acutely aware of each one when you click it you wanna get some real value out of the mon, because if you click the wrong thing once you'll end up trading at best. it's not like a dracovish or a garmanitan where you have one single all-purpose ol' reliable move to mindlessly hammer

now these are of course only the problems with the banded set, or at least the problems that i can see right now. it might turn out that in practice palafin just laughs at these supposed downsides and shreds through every team anyway. and i also haven't covered bulk up and potential other sets (boots pivot, whatever the hell it's gonna end up doing with z-moves, grass knot?????), so there's a lot of other opportunities for the mon to break shit, but let's not go ahead and act like the band set is gonna be the big breakout main role in "palafin is broken: the musical"; if anything, it's gonna be a really good backup vocalist

 

[Wildfiree]

Agree with Moon, but i really wouldn't call Booster Attack weak and Speed Booster will pretty much never be used except on Sun Band.

Anyway, in my opinion, to say Palafin and Annihilape are the same is an extreme oversimplification that lacks nuance and is not at all reflective of what Palafin does. I covered why the Taunt BU set has highly natural and sufficient counterplay in my post and why it is extremely poorly positioned in relation to the current metagame and especially with the lack of tera. If you have any refutations, please share... but the metagame in my view is clearly equipped to handle it and it would not be the reason Palafin is broken if it is. 'Jet Punch picking off offensive mons' - yeah it does that vs chipped mons sure, but it's not really to an unreasonable extent without tera water steroids. Something like Scarf Urshifu does pretty much the same thing while not needing to choose between Wave Crash and Jet Punch when in need of power vs speed while having access to a secondary stab.

Just looking at my builder, these offense teams were built without even accounting for Palafin and they should handle it fine in game (these are just a few examples)
https://pokepast.es/c1e2f707aa7956a3 (every mon here has positive MUs, even lead lando beats it 1v1)
https://pokepast.es/e292b7ee0470060d (fin comes in on nothing safely, it's got issues with urshifu, bolt, pult)
https://pokepast.es/da3c7064c72693a1 (fin is good vs volc, but stuff like pult, zama, oger again all have positive MUs into it)

Although you might find “answers” to it on offensive teams what about the slower bulky teams that gets utterly punished by taunt sets not every fat team carries a dondozo let alone a tang that’s not even to speak of the band sets or other sets that could emerge in this teraless meta. I guess we are also forgetting what rain boosted wave crash can do as well. It has the coverage to pick and choose what it wants to beat. We can sit here and say regen this and that all day but if we factor in hazards it’s not as much as a mind game for palafin boys as we think. I respect your take on a potential Palafin free but I feel we are severely underestimating its abilities.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

some shit bro doesn't even need proof that its broken. If you have a brain that works and you're being unbiased and not appealing to what would be *cool* to add to the meta, you know palafin isn't healthy I feel some of the players in the community lack cognitive brain function.

Like nobody needs to sit here and waste time arguing that palafin, aannihilape, darkrai and all these other obviously broken Pokémon should be tested. None of these mons bring anything positive to the meta.


look at the stature of the players wanting palafin tested bro.
that says enough.

you remind me of me a mere couple of months ago. but since then i've taken some time to self-reflect and improve and expand my consciousness and it's allowed me to have a more open mind about what's testable, especially in an environment that just radically changed in the way this meta did. you have unshakable faith in your own judgement and there's an honor in that, but you need to learn to doubt yourself in times of great change

 

[gamer but swag]

Is anyone else noticing groudon would be healthy for the tier

 

[Patar136]

Gamer but Swag, you are gonna invite the Lugia suspect crowd with posts like that. Hope you are ready for one of those people to speak up. (Not me btw, I don't think Lugia is needed whatsoever.)

some shit bro doesn't even need proof that its broken or a counter argument. If you have a brain that works and you're being unbiased and not appealing to what would be *cool* to add to the meta, you know palafin isn't healthy I feel some of the players in the community lack cognitive brain function.

Listen, whoever you are referring to, I want to shed some enlightenment. Elitism in the forums and saying that certain people don't matter is not a good thing for discourse. We don't need name-calling and we don't need to start saying that certain people should be ignored. Whether you are a seasoned veteran or a newcomer, anybody should be allowed to chime in provided they give reasonable arguments and good points.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

View attachment 693001View attachment 693002
Is anyone else noticing groudon would be healthy for the tier

this is a very surface-level comparison. groudon has an incredible ability, wall-level physical bulk, a spammable stab option with only an accuracy downside, an effective secondary stab due to drought, swords dance, and a great support movepool including rocks, spikes, wisp, and twave. palafin, meanwhile, has effectively no ability, none of those utility things, its strong stab option has recoil, etc etc. i'm ignoring the "palafin starts out as shit and has to switch out" thing because i personally don't think that actually factors in too much in its actual power level, but it's also a key difference momentum-wise between it and groudon. so yeah, not really the same thing

i'd also like to note that i'm not saying, or implying, that palafin will be balanced or healthy or that we need it to save the meta or whatever. i'm perfectly open to the possibility of it still being bullshit. in fact, my gut says it will be, and my gut is very rarely wrong. but the fact that i don't know, because of just how much has changed since its initial ban, is exactly why i want a test. palafin doubters should want a test too—if it's so obviously and objectively broken, that will prove itself in the test and you'll be given a clear and unambiguous ideological win. why would you not seize the opportunity to be proven right?

 

[gamer but swag]

this is a very surface-level comparison. groudon has an incredible ability, wall-level physical bulk, a spammable stab option with only an accuracy downside, an effective secondary stab due to drought, swords dance, and a great support movepool including rocks, spikes, wisp, and twave. palafin, meanwhile, has effectively no ability, none of those utility things, its strong stab option has recoil, etc etc. i'm ignoring the "palafin starts out as shit and has to switch out" thing because i personally don't think that actually factors in too much in its actual power level, but it's also a key difference momentum-wise between it and groudon. so yeah, not really the same thing

Palafin is stronger and faster with an equally strong main stab with no accuracy check except it can also be boosted by rain. It also has access to taunt to completely stub defensive teams. While I'm sure the idea of playing around this mon is very fun I personally would really rather not banish balance to being bad again because you technically can run tangrowth and slowbro to beat Palafin

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Palafin is stronger and faster with an equally strong main stab with no accuracy check except it can also be boosted by rain. It also has access to taunt to completely stub defensive teams. While I'm sure the idea of playing around this mon is very fun I personally would really rather not banish balance to being bad again because you technically can run tangrowth and slowbro to beat Palafin

you make a very good point, actually. rain support could easily tip the scales too far towards palafin dominance. i can foresee it having scary good synergy with archaludon in particular so it might slot right into rain teams as though it's always been there. but all this just makes me want to test it more, so i can find out the actual truth of the matter instead of just musing about palafin-on-paper on forums and discord

 

[ant4456]

I feel like Palafin does too much on its own for one slot on a team. Like, we're straight up putting the barrier for brokenness at "can it singlehandedly take out all of its checks in a row" and not "is it very likely to go above and beyond and get several times more value than the rest of the tier", which I feel it easily surpasses with the Bulk Up set with some calcing.

One of the reason mons with big stats (that aren't Megas, who lack an item slot + are supposed to be more powerful stat wise) get to stay (besides obvious stuff like Slaking) is because they lack the movepool to take advantage of itself.

Like, Zamazenta. Its best offensive setup move for its Attack stat is *Howl*. Fucking Howl. Not even Bulk Up, which is a significant upgrade by just making it harder to take down while it sets up, it's Howl. If that mon got Swords Dance it'd be not only Ubers but also probably a high tier with that speed stat, that very usable Attack, and that massive bulk.

Kyurem-Black is perhaps a key example: All it took was Dragon Dance and Icicle Spear- not even a good Physical STAB last gen, lacking Loaded Dice- to go from an OU staple (and usually not a high tier at that) to Ubers without question. Movepools are very sensitive on Pokemon that have these Uber-level statlines, that somehow crawl their way down to OU.

Palafin, however, doesn't lack movepool, simply put. If anything it has options for basically anything.

We can get into how Dragapult can't switch in due to Ice Punch,

252 Atk Palafin-Hero Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 242-286 (76.3 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 72-86 (22.7 - 27.1%) -- 47.7% chance to 4HKO

We can get into how Toxapex loses to +1 Zen Headbutt, we can get into how Ferrothorn gets absolutely smashed by CC,

+1 252 Atk Palafin-Hero Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Ferrothorn: 320-378 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Palafin-Hero Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 272-322 (77.2 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Palafin-Hero: 168-200 (49.2 - 58.6%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

We can get into how Taunt Bulk Up probably can cook stall singlehandedly, we can talk about how Palafin has one of the best priority options in the game, we can talk about how freely it can get Substitutes up, etc. etc. etc.

Palafin can beat down its counters in pretty normal conditions, including the random shit you bring out for physical guys who are almost uncounterable, because let's not forget it has a usable Special Attack (106!!!) and you can definitely run a random Grass Knot for shit like Dondozo if you wanted to:

0 SpA Palafin-Hero Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 256-302 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So really what we're looking at is a Pokemon that isn't asking the question of, how does it outplay its counters, it's picking its counters. This is very powerful because it gives the user all the power to craft a team that takes advantage of such a Pokemon.

Want to run a Palafin set that isn't very good against Pult? Kingambit is an easy shoe-in, you picked that that is your counter, go ahead. Want a 4A boots pivot that has Jet Punch to punish something like Volc? Flip Turn into another broken and gain infinite momentum, chip, and then fuck it maybe run some Taunt set that cooks stall on Turn 2.

The margin of error for not losing to this Pokemon is going to be extremely high compared to most Pokemon, mark my words. I didn't even mention Z moves this entire post but that is 100% for sure a major option.

+1 252 Atk Palafin-Hero Hydro Vortex (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 439-517 (114.6 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Palafin-Hero Hydro Vortex (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 399-469 (84.1 - 98.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Palafin-Hero Hydro Vortex (190 BP) vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta: 322-379 (99 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Palafin-Hero Hydro Vortex (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Garchomp: 423-498 (100.7 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Palafin-Hero Hydro Vortex (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 378-445 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Pretty much the only consistent check I can think of is Ogerpon Water.

Also just saw in the builder that this mon has Encore so it has even more ways to just absolutely eviscerate stall if you want.

I mean you can make the obvious argument of "Palafin can't do all of these things at once" but what I'd pay attention to is that it can do all of these things in superbly efficient ways that are all, individually, better at doing the role than basically any other mon in the tier.

An offensive Flip Turner is a significantly better Physical Water momentum bot than U-Turn Urshifu for instance, and will get much more chip than Pult spamming U-Turn which also has to worry about not clicking it and being cooked by Pursuit. As a stall killer, I don't think there is any mon that has the flexibility it does to just instantaneously shutdown anything that gets in its way. Like, I think honestly it'd take a while to optimize it just because there are so many options, but to my head I think of Encore Taunt Grass Knot as the three pillars that people would have to find "which is the best one".

As a wallbreaker I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a non-Mega that is so uncheckable, even they generally have bigger weaknesses. Mega Charizard Y is near unwallable if it gets the turns right but it's weak to rocks and has more weaknesses straight up. Mega Medicham is stronger on an individual turn basis, but its actual power for 99% of sets remains the same and it has to make the right moves or do nothing + it has no bulk, it relies on never giving the opponent free turns.

The bulk on Palafin is pretty good especially if we factor in a Bulk Up boost:

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Palafin-Hero: 139-165 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Like, goddamn. Not even 50% with 0 investment, huh?

I don't really have a "closing statement" except please, don't underestimate the ability of people to find ways to optimize Pokemon. I find that a lot of unban talks forget the human element, that is that when there is a will there is a way. Expect a Pokemon to be at least 50% more broken than you expect on average, by sheer force of good teambuilding pushing Pokemon further. Synergy goes a long way, and I don't think any Pokemon should be held to the standard people do to argue a Pokemon needs to be meet to stay banned- I don't think half the Ubers could meet those standards, frankly.

 

[Wildfiree]

This is like saying somebody who doesn’t play chess should speak on chess rules or how somebody should play.

this is like Stephen curry listening to a middle schooler on how to shoot the three and how the game is played at a professional level.


This is like any one of us trying to argue wolfey VGC on VG fucking C.

This shit stops making sense when bad players convince people who main other metas who just started playing ND that they’re correct.

Idc if you’re ABR u shouldn’t chime in on a meta u suck at or have little knowledge on.

I wouldn’t chime in on 90 percent of OU metas bc I would be a hinderance too the meta conversation. instead of speaking I would open my ears to players who are the best at that meta. I’ve listened to countless players advice and never questioned their advice or takes once.

This isn’t oh I’m so fucking good and you suck this goes both ways.

it just doesn’t seem logical

They did say If their arguments are reasonable which implies that it’s someone who have knowledge. Anyone being able to discuss meta is how meta development happens and it’s how people learn and become a regular in the community. The meta discussion itself is a resource to newer players.

 

[Sami]

This discussion about unbanning Palafin and Roaring Moon is getting DULL and I hate how this forum loves spiralling into talking about hypotheticals rather than what we actually have right now because there's still quite a lot left to explore. Someone I've been interested a bit in recently though...


Victini @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Victory Star
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Encore

Ok sure, it folds to Dragapult. But put it this way. It's a Psychic-type pivot that doesn't fold into Kingambit or Gholdengo, while still having a good MU into Zamazenta and Melmetal structures, all while having good utility and coverage. Its a pretty solid Pokemon right now, and it's loving the rise of Mega Charizard Y since it can easily kill with with Bolt Strike while abusing it's own Sun with a now boosted V-Create. It also checks Tapu Lele and Iron Valiant.

Pairing Victini with Kingambit makes for a pretty nice offense core, especially since Victini invites in a lot of Pokemon that Kingambit can face off against, such as the aforementioned Dragapult as well as Mega Tyranitar. It has synergy with others too, like Tapu Koko, Ogerpon-W, Landorus-T, Gholdengo, Urshifu-R and even Dragapult, letting them run either more offensive sets due to its presence or simply just making up for weaknesses.

Another thing I have yet to see people talk about, and it baffles me when you think about how people have hyped up Mega Charizard Y recently, is...

Typical Rain Offense

Rain! What happened to it? Aside from Dragapult and maybe Kingambit, not much has caused Rain to become worse in my opinion, especially since the former is a fake check into it anyways. Tapu Lele is a bit more required now to check the latter, but that has seen use on Rain before, so this isn't a massive stretch for it, and the rise in Mega Charizard Y lets Raging Bolt work in both weathers with Weather Ball and Booster Energy. Additionally, Archaludon sits on a lot of structures now, especially once Landorus-T is removed from the equation, and I' pretty certain it can sit on AV Melmetal and beat it 1v1 just through sheer bulk and power.

Sure, not more Tera Water for Barraskewda, but it's not like that isn't strong anymore, and the drop in Pokemon like Slowbro, Tangrowth and Dragonite helps this archetype out a lot. There's also Mega Swampert I want to give a shoutout too just for being super nice into Melmetal while still being a good Raging Bolt answer, even if Iron Treads is slightly better right now IMO.