If you really think this way, my first suggestion would be to advocate for a Tusk ban. The only way you’re getting action taken against hazardstackmons is if you just flat out ban their main check and cause the metagame to begin collapsing in on itself under the weight of hazard stack teams.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
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Why can't we just ban the Terapagos-Stellar form? We aren't saying you can't terastallize terapagos, we're saying you can't use Terapagos-Stellar in battle, which while functionally the same, is totally different and is more like banning Mega Gengar in that you aren't banning Mega Evolution on Gengar, but rather are banning the Mega Evolved form, just as you're banning the Terapagos-Stellar form.
I'd sooner rip out my own teeth before I'd let our one sole savior of a Gambit wall die as funny as this idea is. Because I know in my heart of hearts we'd fucking keep that piece of shit around even if we were to do this.
Please free my guy, he did nothing wrong. All he wants to do is use rapid spin. How can you say no to a face like that?
I am fully in support of banning the Terapagos-Stellar form, but there was a policy review thread (read here) that went over this debate at length.
I've read through it, and have seen some very compelling arguments, but, and this is just my view and may be wrong, it kinda looks like it was shut down almost just because, even as tons of people were agreeing with the notion to tier the Stellar form separately.
Ultimately it's very hard to justify tiering both seperately, since both enter the battle as the same Pokemon, Terapagos-Terastal (Technically just regular Terapagos). This policy was expanded in gen 6 for mega-evolutions, where functionally, bans of a Mega-Evolution would simply just be a ban of the mega-stone (except for one glaring exception).
These functionned because they were teambuilder restrictions, something that Smogon has historically enforced as it's primary way of upholding the rules for a battle.
Now when it comes to Terapagos, it's situation is extremely similar, nigh identical to Mega Rayquaza. The reason Mega Rayquaza is "banned" from Ubers in gen 6 and 7 is because of the Mega Rayquaza Clause, a battle restriction. As a general rule, we try to play with as little Clauses as possible, especially if it were to be a tier-specific clause.
Ultimately, if OU were to "ban Terapagos-Stellar", we would have to include a "Terapagos-Stellar Clause" into the game, banning it's use of tera, which is very unlikely to pass through upper staff from the sounds of it, and something that I personally oppose.
Whether or not you want to consider tiering them seperately does not affect the fact that a Clause would have to be implemented to allow the use of Terapagos, which is considered undesirable.
How, exactly, is this different from Megas? Both a Garchomp running Scarf and one running Garchompite would enter the field as the same base Garchomp. Furthermore, at least in the teambuilder, per your segment on teambuilder restrictions,
The mega stone is explicitly not banned in and of itself.
Now, I can't actually find a way to see the MRay Clause in action, because, at least on my device, Gens 6&7 Ubers isn't available to queue up for a battle in. However, I can say that I highly doubt we would have to include a Terapagos-Stellar Clause, as not only was the Mega Gengar solution far more complex (you cannot use X item on Y Pokémon per the screenshot), we already have precedence in banning forms themselves, with Hearthflame Ogerpon being banned without a clause.
I see no reason why Terapagos-Stellar can't just be banned like Ogerpon-Hearthflame is already.
Ngl no need to ban Tusk just to make us ban hazard stack mons. Literally just outplay and pivot around the hazards, not that hard smh you idiots just need to adapt with more Stealth Rock immunities.
Where are people at with the issue of threat saturation? It seemed like it was something the council was concerned about and then dropped. But honestly the gen feels tougher than ever to plan for and incredibly frustrating to build with because of everything you have to be ready for.
The difference here is that there is no way to ban Terapagos-Stellar in the teambuilder, Ogerpon-Hearthflame wasn't banned with a clause, it's a simple Pokemon/Item ban, fairly identical to megas.
We can argue about the logistics of banning a pokemon vs banning the mega stone on the pokemon itself, but Terapagos-Stellar is an entirely different case.
The Mega Rayquaza Clause is a physical restriction that prevents you from Mega Evolving it in battle. Terapagos would have to have a similar clause since it's Stellar Form is obtained simply by Terastalyzing.
Technically speaking, there's even a way to "Ban" Mega Rayquaza by not allowing it to use Dragon Ascent, since it's required for it to Mega Evolve, but every single possible Terapagos set can Terastalyse.
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R*pid Sp*n is top 3 cheapest moves in the game and I don’t want to have to deal with yet another dipshit mon speed boosting and removing hazards at the same time. Whoever at GameFreak decided that R*pid Sp*n should give you a speed boost needs to be put out to pasture.
On today’s episode of smogon’s what if, we ponder this question
What if all priority moves were like sucker punch?
What if all priority moves were like sucker punch?
Upper Hand becomes a real move, probably.
Ok we get you love HO but chill
Would it rlly be that hard to add a clause for pagos? Yall act like it would take more than 30 minutes to add something like that
Hey there!
Since usage stats now show common tera types, we are repurposing the Tera Type Index as an archive to not only list Tera types, but also why they are used. You can read about it and participate here! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tera-type-index-week-1-kingambit.3716401/#post-10374443
We have
this week, hope you can participate! c:
Since usage stats now show common tera types, we are repurposing the Tera Type Index as an archive to not only list Tera types, but also why they are used. You can read about it and participate here! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tera-type-index-week-1-kingambit.3716401/#post-10374443
We have
this week, hope you can participate! c:
Honestly the last time I felt the meta was actively fun and competitive was when mixed chomp was everywhere and stuff like Sub + NP Rotom-W was a valid wincon lol. I know metas settle and the optimization kicks in but that's where everything started going downhill. There were moments where we should have said, "wait, so all my mons needs boots p much?" and did something about it then. It's been a very difficult gen to balance because there's so many cases of unhealthy mons instead of just obviously broken ones. We have the tools and the processes in place to remove Chien-Pao and Cheese-Yu- we lowkey don't have that for Gholdengo.
Offensive mons don't want to wear boots most of the time. So if you have an offensive mon as soft check to stop a sweep, it has to come in at 75%, which means it now might be in range to be KO. This just makes sweeping or putting giant holes in teams even easier.
Tera doesn't give lower tier mons a chance to shine, it gatekeeps them harder than ever because the highest tier mons can do it better. It doesn't matter if your lower tier mon gets a SD off, your opp just Teras as well and stops your off-meta/heat team in its tracks. Booster Energy doesn't help with the lack of team diversity either. It's pointless to try and use something off-meta with a scarf because Val still outspeeds. Moon has a free LO installed so good luck on anything that isn't one of its few dedicated checks/counters. Your off-meta soft check might have worked, but with the 1.3x from BE it's now a clean OHKO. Then you just have Gambit, good luck trying to bring anything heat with this thing around. Fallen 5 +2 Sucker Punch obliterates basically everything.
I think this is a really good train of thought. The meta feels solved in a weird way, and we just MU fish with our strategies. Or not solved just like dying, or the innovation is suffering. The only "innovation" I see is just "which Tera is Gambit running this week." Between hazards, the insane power creep, tera, maybe TB and/or BE... something is suffocating the joy of loading up games in SV.
Before Palafin, we should really look into an "unhealthy" suspect. Not broken, just unfortunately having more of a negative effect than a positive one. I don't have the answer but personally things like Ghold, Gambit, BE, TB, Ceaseless Edge, etc. should have much more attention on their impact in regards to tier health than dropping some Ubers cheese. Again, for example, Garg isn't broken, but it's the easiest to pilot win-con I've ever seen in my many years of Showdown. Is that healthy? Does Ceaseless add more than it takes away? Does TB open up more options than it restricts? This is perspective I think the tier needs.
Lowering the power level, addressing unhealthy elements in the builder, and fixing the hazard situation should take precedent above all else. Not saying all or even any of these will magically fix SV- but I think the lack of options with team comps and strategies, and the circumstances that dictate these restraints, is a great place to start. SV's problems aren't going to fix themselves.
how are you simultaneously gliscor's biggest hater and rapid spin's biggest hater? i legitimately don't understand what you want. do you like hazards or not
what are the other two moves
if he says spikes and ceaseless edge i'm going to lose my fucking mind
This is basically it. There's no reason to use a low tier shitmon to check Gambit when you can use Zamazenta, and even if you quad resist Dark, well Val already does that.
The meta is self-contained and exclusive, since everything good is already in OU and there's not much reason to use something outside of it (besides a few UU and UUBL mons like Crown and Lokix, and of course Araquanid).
TBH, I feel we need to discard some of the old way of thinking. We have 1000 Pokemon, and around EIGHTY are in ZU, with 60 in Ubers. We're desperately in need of new tiers, and the OU metagame for big shots can only accept 20 guys at most.
The OU we used to know is now UU, and there's nothing we can do to prevent it. As more mons are added, the old picks will fall down because the tiers stay the same size but the mon pool is growing. We just have to accept that, and either add tiers above OU, or tiers below ZU to accommodate the shift.
No no, he's going to say body press and protect.