Metagame SM Doubles OU

Thanks for getting the SM Cup usage stats up! Below, I'm going to update my VR noms from last year (which sadly never got voted on), based primarily on SM Cup usage, along with reference to recent high level ladder usage and my own feelings about the current Meta. For what it's worth, I probably spent more time on top of the SM DOU ladder than anyone else in the last year or two (I'm pretty sure two other top contenders for that honor were/are boosting to do so, but it's whatevs, as that incentivized me to play other DOU gens a bit, which I had been wanting to do). Also, I now feel like I can at least hold my own against the top tour bros in SM (when not distracted).

Anyway, as I did last year, I'll first include links to recent SM Cup and high ladder usage:

SM CUP CUMULATIVE USAGE STATS: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...teams-replays-thread-wip.3726229/post-9741055

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Incineroar | 172 | 58.90% | 49.42% |
| 2 | Tapu Fini | 132 | 45.21% | 49.24% |
| 3 | Landorus-Therian | 125 | 42.81% | 50.40% |
| 4 | Metagross | 100 | 34.25% | 45.00% |
| 5 | Kartana | 96 | 32.88% | 53.12% |
| 6 | Tapu Koko | 95 | 32.53% | 52.63% |
| 7 | Zeraora | 60 | 20.55% | 60.00% |
| 8 | Zygarde | 50 | 17.12% | 50.00% |
| 9 | Kommo-o | 43 | 14.73% | 60.47% |
| 10 | Kyurem-Black | 40 | 13.70% | 40.00% |
| 11 | Gothitelle | 39 | 13.36% | 48.72% |
| 12 | Diancie | 38 | 13.01% | 55.26% |
| 13 | Amoonguss | 37 | 12.67% | 45.95% |
| 14 | Genesect | 32 | 10.96% | 50.00% |
| 15 | Kingdra | 31 | 10.62% | 41.94% |
| 16 | Mew | 30 | 10.27% | 43.33% |
| 17 | Zapdos | 29 | 9.93% | 48.28% |
| 18 | Volcanion | 28 | 9.59% | 60.71% |
| 18 | Tapu Bulu | 28 | 9.59% | 42.86% |
| 20 | Tapu Lele | 27 | 9.25% | 40.74% |
| 20 | Politoed | 27 | 9.25% | 33.33% |
| 22 | Aegislash | 24 | 8.22% | 54.17% |
| 23 | Venusaur | 23 | 7.88% | 56.52% |
| 23 | Volcarona | 23 | 7.88% | 47.83% |
| 25 | Pelipper | 22 | 7.53% | 59.09% |
| 26 | Charizard | 21 | 7.19% | 47.62% |
| 27 | Salamence | 20 | 6.85% | 40.00% |
| 28 | Gardevoir | 19 | 6.51% | 47.37% |
| 29 | Ludicolo | 18 | 6.16% | 55.56% |
| 29 | Tyranitar | 18 | 6.16% | 55.56% |
| 29 | Scizor | 18 | 6.16% | 50.00% |
| 29 | Porygon2 | 18 | 6.16% | 50.00% |
| 33 | Cresselia | 17 | 5.82% | 52.94% |
| 33 | Manectric | 17 | 5.82% | 41.18% |
| 35 | Camerupt | 16 | 5.48% | 56.25% |
| 36 | Gastrodon | 15 | 5.14% | 53.33% |
| 37 | Celesteela | 14 | 4.79% | 57.14% |
| 37 | Chansey | 14 | 4.79% | 35.71% |
| 39 | Latias | 12 | 4.11% | 66.67% |
| 40 | Scrafty | 10 | 3.42% | 50.00% |
| 40 | Bronzong | 10 | 3.42% | 50.00% |
| 42 | Stakataka | 9 | 3.08% | 55.56% |
| 43 | Abomasnow | 8 | 2.74% | 75.00% |
| 43 | Naganadel | 8 | 2.74% | 62.50% |
| 45 | Necrozma | 7 | 2.40% | 71.43% |
| 45 | Landorus | 7 | 2.40% | 57.14% |
| 45 | Nihilego | 7 | 2.40% | 57.14% |
| 45 | Swampert | 7 | 2.40% | 57.14% |
| 45 | Lurantis | 7 | 2.40% | 42.86% |
| 45 | Suicune | 7 | 2.40% | 14.29% |
| 51 | Greninja | 5 | 1.71% | 80.00% |
| 51 | Araquanid | 5 | 1.71% | 80.00% |
| 51 | Victini | 5 | 1.71% | 60.00% |
| 51 | Hoopa-Unbound | 5 | 1.71% | 40.00% |
| 55 | Deoxys-Speed | 4 | 1.37% | 50.00% |
| 55 | Heatran | 4 | 1.37% | 50.00% |
| 57 | Whimsicott | 3 | 1.03% | 66.67% |
| 57 | Serperior | 3 | 1.03% | 66.67% |
| 57 | Ferrothorn | 3 | 1.03% | 33.33% |
| 57 | Oranguru | 3 | 1.03% | 33.33% |
| 57 | Tsareena | 3 | 1.03% | 33.33% |
| 62 | Hariyama | 2 | 0.68% | 100.00% |
| 62 | Terrakion | 2 | 0.68% | 50.00% |
| 62 | Milotic | 2 | 0.68% | 50.00% |
| 62 | Shaymin-Sky | 2 | 0.68% | 50.00% |
| 62 | Blissey | 2 | 0.68% | 50.00% |
| 62 | Deoxys-Attack | 2 | 0.68% | 0.00% |
| 62 | Nidoking | 2 | 0.68% | 0.00% |
| 62 | Pheromosa | 2 | 0.68% | 0.00% |
| 70 | Lucario | 1 | 0.34% | 100.00% |
| 70 | Persian-Alola | 1 | 0.34% | 100.00% |
| 70 | Toxapex | 1 | 0.34% | 100.00% |
| 70 | Drampa | 1 | 0.34% | 100.00% |
| 70 | Thundurus | 1 | 0.34% | 100.00% |
| 70 | Bisharp | 1 | 0.34% | 100.00% |
| 70 | Raikou | 1 | 0.34% | 0.00% |
| 70 | Houndoom | 1 | 0.34% | 0.00% |
| 70 | Ninetales | 1 | 0.34% | 0.00% |
| 70 | Marowak-Alola | 1 | 0.34% | 0.00% |
| 70 | Torkoal | 1 | 0.34% | 0.00% |
| 70 | Excadrill | 1 | 0.34% | 0.00% |
| 70 | Rotom-Wash | 1 | 0.34% | 0.00% |
| 70 | Hydreigon | 1 | 0.34% | 0.00% |
| 70 | Shedinja | 1 | 0.34% | 0.00% |
| 70 | Togedemaru | 1 | 0.34% | 0.00% |
| 70 | Buzzwole | 1 | 0.34% | 0.00% |
| 70 | Tornadus | 1 | 0.34% | 0.00% |

JULY 2023 PS SM DOU HIGH LADDER USAGE STATS: smogon.com/stats/2023-07/gen7doublesou-1760.txt

+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1 | Incineroar | 53.15073% | 7508 | 22.782% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 2 | Tapu Koko | 31.05226% | 4102 | 12.447% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 3 | Landorus-Therian | 25.74208% | 4667 | 14.161% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 4 | Tapu Fini | 23.60658% | 2617 | 7.941% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 5 | Zygarde | 21.13170% | 1635 | 4.961% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 6 | Pelipper | 17.57147% | 2955 | 8.967% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 7 | Salamence-Mega | 17.28311% | 1869 | 5.671% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 8 | Ferrothorn | 17.03343% | 2577 | 7.820% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 9 | Swampert-Mega | 16.81463% | 2819 | 8.554% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 10 | Metagross-Mega | 16.23851% | 2373 | 7.201% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 11 | Tapu Lele | 15.77065% | 2595 | 7.874% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 12 | Zapdos | 13.97991% | 2844 | 8.630% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 13 | Chansey | 12.02287% | 717 | 2.176% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 14 | Milotic | 11.64189% | 2349 | 7.128% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 15 | Tyranitar | 11.08408% | 2106 | 6.390% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 16 | Kartana | 10.30246% | 2883 | 8.748% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 17 | Ludicolo | 9.81378% | 1115 | 3.383% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 18 | Azumarill | 9.33919% | 1051 | 3.189% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 19 | Genesect | 9.21136% | 1168 | 3.544% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 20 | Celesteela | 8.85766% | 1327 | 4.027% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 21 | Kommo-o | 8.30789% | 2573 | 7.807% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 22 | Thundurus-Therian | 8.20969% | 639 | 1.939% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 23 | Charizard-Mega-Y | 8.07157% | 3509 | 10.648% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 24 | Kingdra | 8.03817% | 1683 | 5.107% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 25 | Dusclops | 7.62445% | 782 | 2.373% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 26 | Aegislash | 7.54582% | 1924 | 5.838% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 27 | Volcanion | 7.49738% | 994 | 3.016% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 28 | Venusaur-Mega | 7.30532% | 1472 | 4.467% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 29 | Amoonguss | 6.85283% | 2216 | 6.724% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 30 | Kyurem-Black | 6.62535% | 901 | 2.734% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 31 | Togekiss | 6.11270% | 1288 | 3.908% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 32 | Manaphy | 5.88386% | 391 | 1.186% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 33 | Excadrill | 4.46568% | 1451 | 4.403% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 34 | Diancie | 4.19411% | 454 | 1.378% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 35 | Porygon2 | 4.17293% | 1483 | 4.500% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 36 | Sceptile-Mega | 4.09651% | 1181 | 3.584% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 37 | Latias | 4.03005% | 333 | 1.010% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 38 | Whimsicott | 4.00593% | 3021 | 9.167% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 39 | Mew | 3.79228% | 1361 | 4.130% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 40 | Jolteon | 3.75112% | 605 | 1.836% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 41 | Stakataka | 3.74605% | 919 | 2.789% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 42 | Abomasnow-Mega | 3.69915% | 526 | 1.596% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 43 | Hariyama | 3.60058% | 664 | 2.015% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 44 | Hoopa-Unbound | 3.55789% | 628 | 1.906% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 45 | Araquanid | 3.48361% | 986 | 2.992% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 46 | Raichu-Alola | 3.38501% | 333 | 1.010% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 47 | Gothitelle | 3.11550% | 958 | 2.907% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 48 | Gastrodon | 3.09821% | 2853 | 8.657% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 49 | Aromatisse | 3.02906% | 300 | 0.910% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 50 | Tapu Bulu | 2.92416% | 784 | 2.379% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 51 | Hippowdon | 2.79725% | 350 | 1.062% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 52 | Tyranitar-Mega | 2.78089% | 940 | 2.852% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 53 | Zeraora | 2.62961% | 1644 | 4.988% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 54 | Ninetales-Alola | 2.52415% | 1301 | 3.948% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 55 | Bronzong | 2.37040% | 565 | 1.714% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 56 | Togedemaru | 2.13921% | 295 | 0.895% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 57 | Landorus | 2.10951% | 329 | 0.998% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 58 | Cradily | 2.06733% | 1061 | 3.219% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 59 | Gardevoir-Mega | 2.05626% | 1221 | 3.705% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 60 | Blaziken-Mega | 2.02683% | 712 | 2.160% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 61 | Politoed | 1.98076% | 1183 | 3.590% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 62 | Aerodactyl-Mega | 1.87134% | 401 | 1.217% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 63 | Muk-Alola | 1.86741% | 497 | 1.508% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 64 | Cresselia | 1.83758% | 1336 | 4.054% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 65 | Manectric-Mega | 1.78860% | 754 | 2.288% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 66 | Torkoal | 1.74183% | 1250 | 3.793% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 67 | Bisharp | 1.71281% | 344 | 1.044% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 68 | Camerupt-Mega | 1.69737% | 883 | 2.679% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 69 | Scrafty | 1.66291% | 439 | 1.332% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 70 | Terrakion | 1.55785% | 509 | 1.544% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 71 | Heatran | 1.33142% | 1325 | 4.021% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 72 | Volcarona | 1.14502% | 1758 | 5.334% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 73 | Tornadus | 1.08804% | 351 | 1.065% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 74 | Victini | 1.03152% | 790 | 2.397% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 75 | Greninja | 1.00444% | 2467 | 7.486% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 76 | Diancie-Mega | 0.96751% | 782 | 2.373% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 77 | Clefairy | 0.96544% | 481 | 1.460% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 78 | Mimikyu | 0.96384% | 904 | 2.743% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 79 | Clefable | 0.96308% | 1030 | 3.125% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 80 | Garchomp | 0.95996% | 2307 | 7.000% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 81 | Aerodactyl | 0.95665% | 197 | 0.598% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 82 | Venusaur | 0.93454% | 919 | 2.789% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 83 | Scizor-Mega | 0.92030% | 332 | 1.007% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 84 | Arcanine | 0.91580% | 1336 | 4.054% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 85 | Hitmontop | 0.90629% | 633 | 1.921% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 86 | Mawile-Mega | 0.87758% | 368 | 1.117% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 87 | Typhlosion | 0.83235% | 832 | 2.525% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 88 | Deoxys-Attack | 0.82253% | 374 | 1.135% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 89 | Smeargle | 0.81706% | 861 | 2.613% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 90 | Crawdaunt | 0.80467% | 201 | 0.610% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 91 | Darmanitan | 0.79456% | 302 | 0.916% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 92 | Murkrow | 0.79045% | 504 | 1.529% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 93 | Vaporeon | 0.76768% | 554 | 1.681% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 94 | Gengar | 0.76393% | 820 | 2.488% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 95 | Suicune | 0.75303% | 544 | 1.651% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 96 | Espeon | 0.72838% | 412 | 1.250% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 97 | Malamar | 0.68894% | 434 | 1.317% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 98 | Braviary | 0.67353% | 178 | 0.540% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 99 | Infernape | 0.66590% | 661 | 2.006% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 100 | Rotom-Heat | 0.66514% | 158 | 0.479% | 0 | 0.000% |

Based on my observations for the last couple of years, I strongly believe that SM Cup usage (by and large reflecting the best players in the tier--and many more than compete in DPL) is a very good approximation for viability in the Meta. So here's what I have for this year:

:kartana: Tier 2 --> Tier 1
The recent SM Cup usage stats show Kart has 96 uses, compared to 100 for Metagross (though I believe that's likely to include a few non-Mega versions of Gross). That's way up from last year for both mons and, incredibly, higher than Koko at 95 (Kart could be the 4th most used mon in the tier, per SM Cup usage). Kart has a number of different viable sets, including Z Move, Sash, and (my fav) bulky attacker (with or without AV). If you want to use a Mega not named Gross or Venu, and you are not running Full Room or stall, Kart usually belongs on that team. Yes, I tried for this nom two years ago and failed, but the numbers back me up strongly since then. In fact, looking at the numbers for these past couple years, it's very clear that Kart should be added to T1 and MGross should stay in as well (I'm personally not a big fan of MGross, but it can't be denied that it still sees T1 usage in tours). The cutoff between T1 and T2 is very clearly at Zeraora, where usage drops off a cliff from 95 to 60.

:zeraora: Tier 3 --> Tier 2
This is an easy call based on usage stats. Zeraora is now at the very top of T2 and its surging popularity has caused Koko to slide a little bit. I've become a lot more impressed by it this past year personally, as well. Zeraora is an awesome fast pivot (pivoting is incredibly important in this Meta) and is able to stall out and facilitate things well with Fake Out. It usually uses AV and Intimidate support to become pretty bulky. It can take some of Incin's FO/pivot burden if another Fire mon is being used or it can partner with Incin for double the Fake Outs/pivots and double the fun. It can also run Fire or Ice (HP) well and snipe stuff like Lando or Kart.

:Zygarde: Tier 3--> Tier 2
This is a reversal from my recommended drop two years based on the data. I said Zyg was borderline then. Now it's near the top of T2 in SM Cup usage (second only to Zeraora with 50, and far in front of anything else). It's a strong, bulky mon with several viable sets. I believe the best set is CB, which really only needs speed control to be crazy good. Zyg hits 4 of the 7 mon above it in Cup usage super effectively with Thousand Arrows, which is a money move that is literally not resisted by anything in the top 3 VR tiers.

:Gothitelle: Tier 3 --> Tier 2
This is sitting at 11th in usage in SM Cup this year, while she was 8th last year. That's very clearly T2 usage. Goth is a Meta defining mon and a big reason why pivoting is so... pivotal. For all the negativity Goth got earlier this year, she had a nearly 50% win rate in the Cup (it was much higher last year), which is fine and nearly identical to that of Incin or Fini. She's not used all that much on the ladder (harder to win consistently against lower level players when Goth invites guessing games), so this isn't the ladder hero in me speaking, I assure you. Goth just definitely belongs in Tier 2 given the game changing effect she has on the current SM Meta and the extremely high usage she has seen in recent tours because of that.

:Amoonguss: Tier 3--> Tier 2
I didn't touch this toadstool the last time my noms got voted on, but in the last couple years it has done very well in SM cup usage, now sitting neck and neck with Diancie at 13th. It can fit on many teams, even some that have Fini or Koko. There is a lot of TR out there and Amoonguss can help on such teams or against them and is the best redirector in the Meta, in addition to being the Meta's premiere sleep aid. Fini is used on 45.2% of teams and Koko on 32.5%. Assuming a little overlap, that's still nearly 3/4 of Cup teams carrying protection against Amoonguss, largely because of how catastrophic taking a nap can be.

Now a few more controversial takes:

:Mew: Tier 3--> Tier 2
This mon is borderline in usage, coming in at number 16 overall. Up until this year, I guess I thought it was kind of meh. However, I've come to see it as extremely splashable and good in high level play. Perhaps its biggest draw is that it is unpredictable. It can very credibly be running Fake Out, Stealth Rocks, Tailwind, Trick Room, Ice Beam, Earth Power, a Fire move, U-Turn or a STAB Psychic, as well as a ton of niche options. That makes it a fantastic lead, as your opponent is forced to make guesses that usually have bad risk/reward for them on the first turn (e.g., potentially getting their Lando or Ferrothorn Rocks setter 0KOd and not knowing if they get left in the dust with Tailwind or whether their own Tailwind is going to get mished by Trick Room). I'd also say it's the most reliable Stealth Rocks setter in the tier. Earth Power enables it to do decent damage on Incin and it will sometimes run a Z move, making opposing Knock Off (often the first line of defense against it) much less effective. Because of its versatility and durability, it's also one of the best Trick Room team setters, bar none.

:Volcanion: Tier 3--> Tier 2
Last year Volcanion was tied with Goth at 8th in cumulative usage in the SM Cup. This year, it's down to 18th, which is borderline, but still sports an awesome 60% win percentage. My personal feeling is that it should be T2. It's the best Incin/Fini alternative and walls both of them. It has a ton of good matchups (including vs Water) and is a particularly good partner for Goth, since so many mons don't want to be trapped with it.

:Tapu Lele: Tier 3 --> Tier 2
Lele's SM Cup usage is solid, coming in at 27 uses (20th overall). Its high ladder usage is even better. Though Cup usage is borderline T2/T3, along with a few other mons, I believe it belongs in Tier 2. It's the best alternative to Fini and Koko as a terrain setter and the preferred option for many kinds of teams. It's great on TR or teams trying to use status (hello Amoonguss) and can function well on other teams that want the terrain boost for something like a Mega Metagross or that just don't appreciate Fake Out.

Other borderline T2/T3 mons: Genesect usage is up a bit for this SM Cup (it was the 14th most used mon after going 43rd last year). It has still lost its former luster in my opinion, but I guess I won't try to Blaze Kick it into T4. Kingdra is good and borderline T2/T3, but it's not my favorite Swift Swimmer (it's not even my second favorite). It isn't very consistent and struggles mightily with the ever-present Fini. Its sub 42% win rate no doubt reflects that. Politoed's 33% win rate is ridiculously bad. Zapdos is fine, but T3 feels like a good fit for it to me currently (Zeraora is giving T2 a solid Electric option). Bulu was actually used slightly more than Lele this year, but I'm gonna go with T3 for it, since I think it's usually an inferior terrain option on top teams.
So, to take a step back, if all my above noms were accepted (yeah right :psywoke:), we'd have 6 mons in Tier 1 (I don't actually see how you could credibly leave any of Koko, MGross or Kart out of T1, given their usage stats which are similar and all more than twice that of anything else currently in T2) and 10 mons in Tier 2. Given the much larger size of the later tiers, I think this is perfectly reasonable and would be more helpful to players than the current lopsided VR (only 4 mons in T2!), which doesn't reflect the wealth of good options for team building in SM DOU. (Side Note: The current VR for SV DOU is a counterexample to the balance and use based practical viability I'm recommending here. Having exactly 1 mon, Flutter Mane, in T1, while T2 has 10 mons and T4 and 5 each have ~20 frankly seems ridiculous to me. It's not helpful to new players either really and encourages the tier to be even more centered around FM use. If you guys really think it's in a world by itself, ban it... again!)

:Tapu Bulu: Tier 4 --> Tier 3
As the 18th most used mon in SM Cup (tied with Volcanion), Bulu definitely belongs in T3 at least. It had very good showings the last few years of SM Cup. Last year, it had more usage than T3 staples like Zapdos and Kingdra. As one of only 4 terrain setters (and the only one that can 0KO all the rest with its own terrain set), fitting well on a number of teams, including both TR and TW, as well as teams seeking to exploit status or wanting healing for stall, it's really a key part of the Meta for this gen and doesn't deserve to be relegated to T4.

:Pelipper: Tier 4--> Tier3
This mon was 25th in SM Cup usage, compared to 20 for Politoed (22 uses compared to 27), but it had almost twice the win percentage! It's a solid mon and one of two very viable rain setters in the Meta. It can set Tailwind for speed control and has a lot more offensive presence than Politoed with Hurricane, which is great for a lot of stuff that gives rain major problems, like Mega Venu and opposing Ludicolo. Both Sash and Damp Rock help it get the job done in setting Rain for many turns. I personally prefer it to Politoed in most cases, but I'd say they are both clearly T3.

:Ludicolo: Tier 5 --> Tier 4
I don't get the Ludi disrespecters. He's great on rain. He was 29th in usage in SM Cup this year with 18 uses, well ahead of Swampert with 7 (Mega and non-Mega versions). He's used much more than Kingdra on the high ladder (mostly thanks to me if I'm honest). The numbers for him are very consistent. Maybe T3 could be a stretch (though I personally think he belongs with Kingdra), but he's not a T5 mon any more than other rain team staples would be.

:Cresselia: Tier 5 --> Tier 4
This mon was tied for 18th in usage in the SM Cup last year, but is 33rd this year. That's still the upper the upper end of how I would classify T4. She's very versatile; a premiere Room setter and support mon with a useful ground immunity.

:Celesteela: Tier 5 --> Tier 4
With 14 uses (37th overall) this mon had twice the SM Cup usage of Nihilego or Swampert. It's a mon you really have to prepare for in the builder (or it will stall you to death) and it fits well on a number of different teams that, for one reason or another, don't have another Steel type on them, need something slow and stallish or are stacking too many ground weaknesses.

:Nihilego: Tier 4 --> Tier 5
With only 7 uses in this SM Cup (and only 3 last year), this mon hasn't been particularly impressive. It has an awkward speed tier for what it wants to do and, while specially strong, is physically frail and not easy to fit on most top teams.

Tier 5 drops and adds:
:Pheromosa: and :Togedemaru: had 2 and 1 uses respectively in the recent SM Cup (they were 1 each last year). :Deoxys Attack: had 2. I'd make them UR (:Deoxys Speed: with 4 SM Cup uses is now more viable on a good team--I'd give it T5). Meanwhile, these two currently UR mons saw more significant SM Cup usage::Stakataka:(9), :Abomasnow-Mega: (8). I'd put them in T5. TR is very viable and these can see use out of Full Room. T5 should also follow actual use--Tsareena, for instance, is a good mon with an awesome ability, but in SM I see Ferrothorn (and worry about how to ensure my team can KO it) much more often and I'd frankly find it easier to fit Ferrothorn on my own team (e.g., for stall or water/TR defense). :Ferrothorn: only had 3 SM Cup uses (down from 5 last year), but I still believe it's T5. :Hoopa-Unbound: makes a decent case for T5 with 5 uses. :Whimsicott:had 3 Cup uses (with 2 wins!) this year (while Milotic, which I believe to be a solid, perennial T5 mon, only had 2 uses). I still feel like it should be T5 personally (Everyone's gotta have a dream!)
 
Last edited:
:tapu-koko: 1 -> 2
Tapu Koko being tier 1 might have made sense back when Zeraora was considered tier 5, but with Zeraora having become more common and there still being plenty of other Mons that can take its Electric moves, I don't think it's dominant enough a force to be tier 1. Its usage rate in SM Cup was much closer to Kartana than Incin, Fini, or Lando-T.

:kyurem-black: 2 -> 3
So much of the meta can hit it super effectively and being weak to Stealth Rock really hurts its bulk. Had a poor 40% win rate in SM Cup. Kommo-o seems to be a much better Dragon.

:nihilego: 4 -> 5
Gets hard countered by Mega Metagross, can't OHKO Lando-T or Zygarde with HP Ice (unless Life Orb). Gets obliterated by rain and Zeraora and Mega Manectric can neuter it with Snarl. Had a mere 2.4% usage rate in SM Cup.

:tsareena: 5 -> UR
Who the hell even uses this thing? If you want to get rid of Stealth Rock for Zard-Y or Volcarona Defog Lando-T is way better.
 
As a Hoopa-Unbound advocate (since inception), I, too, believe that it should be added to the VR List. From PERSONAL experience, Hoopa-Unbound fulfills a lot of roles that other mons don't. For example, as Veecy mentioned above, Hoopa-Unbound is able to use either Hyperspace Fury (for physically offensive sets) or Hyperspace Hole (for specially offensive sets) to break Protect (and, alternatively, things like Substitute/Reflect/Light Screen/Aurora Veil). Essentially, this leaves your opponent with only one way to play defensively, and that's switching out. However, if you read correctly, you can just predict what your opponent is gonna switch into, and then capitalize off that.

With Hoopa-Unbound already boasting massive attack stats, both physically and specially, I aim towards either Timid or Jolly when it comes to the nature (allowing Hoopa-Unbound to apply pressure as a HO sweeper). Hoopa-Unbound can run a slew of "unique" items to take advantage of its (sometimes useless) Magician ability (i.e. Mental Herb, Pinch Berries, etc), and then take any opponents items that may not be used or knocked off.

For both Hoopa-Unbounds that I use, my goal is to be able to do two things: apply HO pressure while breaking the opponent's defense, and providing flinches to allow Hoopa-Unbound's partners to be able to capitalize. Although I only use Thunder Wave + Reflect in OU, it can be said that Hoopa-Unbound can also do ParaFlinch maneuvers while maintaining its resilience on the battlefield.

Anyways, my Physical Hoopa-Unbound uses Hyperspace Fury + Zen Headbutt, while my Special Hoopa-Unbound uses Hyperspace Hole + Dark Pulse. Both, basically, do the same thing. As for the last two slots, I do like Imprison + Trick Room, but Ally Switch + Protect is my fav go to when it comes to what status moves I wanna use for my last two slots.

All in all, I do think starting at Rank 5 would be appropriate. Anything is better than nothing, and, aside from the frequent U- turn users, Hoopa-Unbound is a massive powerhouse who is literally checked by almost nothing. Like, yeah, we have Fairy mons (see the Big 4), but they really aren't applying as much pressure as people think they are. Unless I'm missing something. If so, I do implore whomever to correct me.
 
Since it's that magical time of the year when people care about the SM DOU tier, I thought I'd provide some quick input on sample teams (in addition to my effort poast above on the VR). Unlike most folks here, I actually consider myself to be a better team builder than a player. Being geriatric doesn't help the reflexes. Anyway, I've copied the current samples and posted some quick thoughts below each team:


:politoed::kingdra::gardevoir-mega::incineroar::kartana::amoonguss:
Ezrael's rain:
Rain is such an important part of the SM DOU Meta that I do feel we should have a rain sample team. However, I don't think this is the best rain has to offer, though Ezrael is a great player no doubt. It has real trouble with stuff like Volcanion and has no terrain control or fast pivots, which are especially useful for combatting opposing weather. I see it used a lot because it's the rain sample, but feel there are other options passed over because of that. Honestly, after being rain obsessed for a long time, my favorite rain core has Ludi, MPert and Peli. I don't really expect the PTB here to use my teams as official samples though. So maybe something like the Kingdra and Kommo-o double dragon stuff I've seen folks like Actuarily use very competently would be good. However, we really should have something new for a rain sample.

:manectric-mega::incineroar::tapu fini::kartana::zygarde::mew:
Stax's Hazards + Pivot:
This is a solid team. I've recently been working with a team that effectively swaps MegaMan with MegaSal and has more speed control (which I think is the critical thing for CB Zyg) than pivots and is better into rain. However, if you guys want to use another Zyg team here that would be fine. The team folks have been discussing on Discord works pretty well and also highlights Zeraora's pivoting ability, though I think it isn't great into heavy rain and (like many teams I see) doesn't seem to worry about ground weaknesses vs. resistances/immunities.

:scizor-mega::kommo-o::tapu koko::volcanion::landorus-therian::gothitelle:
SMB's Kommo-o trap:
I like this team and it does a good job of highlighting the dangers of Goth and of Kommo-o. SMB has been one of the best builders in the tier. Unless you guys can find a better or more splashable Goth team and/or Kommo-o team, I would vote to keep this one.

:camerupt-mega::bronzong::incineroar::diancie::tapu bulu::porygon2:
Everyone's fullroom:
This is probably on the chopping block because the "Everyone" who primarily built this team is [Redacted]. However, it's still the best Mega Camerupt team I've come across. I tried (a little bit) earlier this year to come up with a better one, but failed. I think having a sample team highlighting Full Room is important. If we really need a different team sample, the one SMB used last year for DPL (if not earlier), with Mew, Diancie and P2 as setters, struck me as very solid. Purple Rain Lele's Full Room (featuring Z TR Bronzong and L1 Togedemaru) is the fan favorite on the ladder, which is all the more remarkable because I haven't seen it posted publicly, and believe people have just seen it through replays and observing copycats, and have then recreated it.

:charizard-mega-y::amoonguss::landorus-therian::cresselia::tapu koko::heatran:
MajorBowman's Bulky Charizard:
This is a cool concept team, but honestly I haven't seen this one used much and it doesn't really represent a frequently used playstyle. If we wanted a concept team, my favorite would probably be DaWob's Durant trap, though I don't suppose it would be easy for beginners to use competently. My Terracott team is the best I've seen of that genre and has actually done pretty well against very good players, even after the surprise factor has worn off. It's seen a lot of use on the ladder (I once ran into two people playing a rated battle each running it, which was cool), but hasn't gotten much copycat love from the tour bros, though it has a very good MU against many of the stallish/bulk teams that are popular these days. GenOne's Perish trap team is another iconic concept team (and others, including myself, have created water perish teams that work well at a high level).

:landorus-therian::kyurem-black::metagross-mega::suicune::tapu koko::victini:
Mr.GX's Metagross + Koko:
Haven't seen this team used really and it doesn't strike me as the best sample choice. There are too many Kokos in the samples, but something with MGross would be good to have I guess. A psychic team with Lele could be an interesting choice too, since that's a playstyle not represented in the current samples.

The top tier mon +Zap and Amoonguss team Veecy suggested is definitely one of the most commonly used teams on the ladder (probably the top one if we're talking sample type teams) and does seem emblematic of the tier. So I wouldn't be averse to including it, though I don't think it's really an amazing team (don't love Amoonguss with Fini tbh). A couple years ago, I posted a balance semi-room team with MGarde, Incin, Lando, Zap, Kart and Fini (with mons copied from a team by therazer456 and my sets), which I think is a great balance team highlighting some of the Meta's big hitters. Maybe someone has something else Semi-Room with like Diancie? Also, bulky stall is a cool, different team type (the best I would have for that would be my Chansey team that got me my highest GXE ever last year).

Anyway, those are just some thoughts. If any voting person is interested in checking out any of my teams for sample consideration, I'm happy to oblige, but I guess you guys have a wealth of good teams used in tours to pick from. Would just be good to get some teams that are representative of different playstyles!
 
Last edited:
After a long wait, the samples on the main page are now updated! To reflect the wide team variety in SM we have a larger number of teams, representing a multitude of different Megas and team styles, which should well equip any beginner getting into the tier. As of this post, the voting slate for the VR has also been sent out and will now be voted on. On that point I have some noms I'd like to make below, not all that I'm certain on myself, and there's definitely some other possible changes, but I'd like to at least spark some ideas. To be clear: the following is a personal VR, NOT what the new VR will be, that is still being voted on. Hypothetical rises are in green, drops are in red. Before the VR I have links to the stats from SM Cup from the most recent Doubles Classic, stats from the most recent SMPL, and from the most recent DPL for reference.

SM Cup Stats
I couldn't find actual stats compiled anywhere so I did it myself
incineroar.png
SMPL II
incineroar.png

Moves and Teammates | Combos
Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Incineroar         |   20 |  58.82% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Metagross          |   19 |  55.88% |  57.89% |
| 3    | Tapu Fini          |   16 |  47.06% |  62.50% |
| 4    | Landorus-Therian   |   13 |  38.24% |  46.15% |
| 5    | Tapu Koko          |   12 |  35.29% |  41.67% |
| 6    | Kartana            |   11 |  32.35% |  54.55% |
| 7    | Zeraora            |    7 |  20.59% |  28.57% |
| 8    | Chansey            |    6 |  17.65% |  66.67% |
| 8    | Volcarona          |    6 |  17.65% |  66.67% |
| 8    | Amoonguss          |    6 |  17.65% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Kingdra            |    5 |  14.71% |  80.00% |
| 11   | Zygarde            |    5 |  14.71% |  60.00% |
| 13   | Politoed           |    4 |  11.76% | 100.00% |
| 13   | Gardevoir          |    4 |  11.76% |  75.00% |
| 13   | Zapdos             |    4 |  11.76% |  75.00% |
| 16   | Kyurem-Black       |    3 |   8.82% | 100.00% |
| 16   | Pheromosa          |    3 |   8.82% |  66.67% |
| 16   | Celesteela         |    3 |   8.82% |  66.67% |
| 16   | Kommo-o            |    3 |   8.82% |  66.67% |
| 16   | Ludicolo           |    3 |   8.82% |  33.33% |
| 16   | Pelipper           |    3 |   8.82% |  33.33% |
| 16   | Tapu Lele          |    3 |   8.82% |  33.33% |
| 16   | Diancie            |    3 |   8.82% |  33.33% |
| 16   | Tapu Bulu          |    3 |   8.82% |   0.00% |
| 16   | Landorus           |    3 |   8.82% |   0.00% |
| 16   | Volcanion          |    3 |   8.82% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Naganadel          |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Gothitelle         |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Araquanid          |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 27   | Swampert           |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Porygon2           |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Aegislash          |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Persian-Alola      |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Tyranitar          |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Mew                |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Serperior          |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Scizor             |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Blastoise          |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Deoxys-Attack      |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Latias             |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Toxapex            |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Registeel          |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Camerupt           |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Bronzong           |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Manectric          |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Lurantis           |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Necrozma           |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Venusaur           |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Cresselia          |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Gastrodon          |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Milotic            |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Deoxys-Speed       |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Salamence          |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
DPL IX Stats

>>Tier 1<<

727.png
Incineroar
798.png
Kartana
645-s.png
Landorus-T
376-m.png
Mega Metagross
788.png
Tapu Fini
785.png
Tapu Koko
807.png
Zeraora?

The best and most splashable Pokemon in the tier, practically any viable team will have two of these at least, with the more the better, generally. Kartana is years overdue a rise at this point, after people have realised you should invest in special defence on it that makes its biggest flaw in its special bulk serviceable enough. Kartana's easily the best Grass-type, forming an especially nice FWG core with fellow Tier 1s Tapu Fini and Incineroar, is one of the best Tapu Fini checks available, is the best (albeit not most reliable) Tailwind setter, has two great Z-move options and work without it as well.

The real conversation to be had here is Zeraora, which I want to raise some discussion on. Zeraora's inarguably far better than it is in SS (with access to Hidden Power and no Rillaboom among other reasons), or was perceived to be in SM when it was current gen, but if you look at the usage stats or the collection of sample teams you'll see we're reaching the point where it can argue a place in Tier 1. Zeraora competes with Tapu Koko, which is obviously much better offensively, but the ability to check Koko so well is actually one of Zeraora's biggest selling points, especially for the Tapu Fini teams where it fits much more naturally compared to having your own Tapu Koko. Indeed, 90+% of Zeraora in all three of the above tours have been paired with a Tapu Fini, making it practically a requirement, and a strong argument against a rise. Either way, I think it's interesting that we're at minimum at the point where Zeraora can reasonably be mentioned in the same breath as Tapu Koko, with the former even surpassing the latter's usage across SM Cup Top 8 onwards (yes it's a small sample size but still illustrates how close the two are that it can happen). I suppose a different argument you could make is that Tapu Koko and Zeraora both belong together in Tier 2 rather than 1, but with how big a threat offensively Tapu Koko can be on the right teams I'm not super sold on a drop I think.

>>Tier 2<<

719.png
Diancie
230.png
Kingdra
784.png
Kommo-o
646-b.png
Kyurem-B
637.png
Volcarona
718.png
Zygarde

Delineating Tiers 2 and 3 is difficult in SM; beyond the Tier 1s (and Zeraora if you don't have that) there's a sharp drop in usage then a massive pool of Pokemon all around a similar level much lower than the Tier 1s, which is part of the format's appeal. Right now there's a massive difference in size between the two tiers, and I don't think the current Pokemon in Tier 2 are so much better than the rest of Tier 3 for that to be the case. Part of me feels like the two should be combined into one big tier but that seems not right, so instead I've picked out a few Pokemon I think are most deserving of a rise to help balance the scales. I've focused on the Pokemon which are the strongest when on your team/in games, since splashability isn't too big of a difference between the two tiers here. In other words, these aren't really Pokemon that can fit on a massive amount of teams (which is basically just the Tier 1s, so on that note the tier descriptions should probably be changed), but they're some of the strongest options and are worth building around to take advantage of, whereas the Tier 3s are more of supporting pieces for other Pokemon (like Gothitelle and Mew) or are more costly to add to your team (e.g. Megas).

Kingdra is the crown jewel of rain as the primary Swift Swim user, being frightening to deal with in rain due to boosted Speed and attacks. Rain is very strong in SM, and while not every rain team has Kingdra, the majority do because it is rain's biggest threat, and so I think it deserves to stand alone in Tier 2 here (the two setters split usage and are somewhat interchangeable so in this case it does make sense to me to have Kingdra alone in a higher tier). For Zygarde, we've seen the stax sample replaced by a new sample team showcasing Zygarde's strength, Thousand Arrows is a great move and there's few actual resists to it in this format, making it difficult to deal with and one of the tier's strongest attackers. Volcarona is the best Fire-type in the tier besides Incineroar (Volcanion doesn't want to stack with Incineroar or Tapu Fini which makes it fairly awkward) and another big setup threat with Quiver Dance. Lacking the Intimidate weakness of Zygarde or the massive Fairy weakness of Kommo-o, while having two great STABs as opposed to just one (with one being a stronger single-target option), Volcarona brings something unique to the table, for the cost of forgoing Incineroar and wanting hazard removal for its Stealth Rock Weakness. With those three additions that helps round out Tier 2 and make it more of the "these are the strongest Pokemon outside of the Tier 1s which you should be trying to fit onto your team" that I envision.

>>Tier 3<<

681.png
Aegislash
591.png
Amoonguss
006-my.png
Mega Charizard-Y
282-m.png
Mega Gardevoir
649.png
Genesect
576.png
Gothitelle
151.png
Mew
279.png
Pelipper
186.png
Politoed
233.png
Porygon2
373-m.png
Mega Salamence
786.png
Tapu Lele
003-m.png
Mega Venusaur
721.png
Volcanion
145.png
Zapdos

Tier 3 is mostly fine at the moment, it has the best Megas other than Metagross which all sit around a similar level, and the best options for rounding out your team when one of the Tier 1s won't suffice. Pelipper should rise to be on the same level as Politoed, both are viable rain setters and fit on different versions, offering Tailwind and Hurricane is nice and it's a Ground-type immunity for pairing with Mega Swampert. Mega Venusaur is a fantastic defensive win condition, just look at how it matches into the Tier 1s, especially with Intimidate to soften the physical attackers. Most teams have 1-2 good ways to hit Venusaur, and with the rest of the team to support it opponents can really struggle to break through it.

>>Tier 4<<

752.png
Araquanid
323-m.png
Mega Camerupt
797.png
Celesteela
113.png
Chansey
488.png
Cresselia
423-e.png
Gastrodon
380-m.png
Mega Latias
272.png
Ludicolo
212-m.png
Mega Scizor
260-m.png
Mega Swampert
248-m.png
Mega Tyranitar
787.png
Tapu Bulu

Tier 4 consists of Pokemon which aren't quite as good as the Tier 3s, generally being a little more team-specific. Mega Scizor almost requires Gothitelle as setup support and those teams haven't performed especially great recently, the Intimidate weakness holds it back a lot in this tier while it's easier and more effective to just use Mega Metagross for a Steel-type Mega (or use Choice Band Genesect with Extreme Speed for covering the priority angle). Ludicolo is a pretty reasonable option on rain and shouldn't be as low as Tier 5, sitting alongside Mega Swampert seems fair. Cresselia sees use on a couple of different defensive teams and some Charizard teams, it's usable on enough stuff for Tier 4 as a fat support/Calm Mind Pokemon. Celesteela is another bulky Pokemon that's more than just a one-team pony, with Beast Boost and Leech Seed making it an annoying defensive win condition, and it has some set options between different attacks, Wide Guard, and the potential for a more offensive set. With that flexibility and unique defensive qualities Celesteela fits better among the Tier 4s than Tier 5s.

>>Tier 5<<

460-m.png
Mega Abomasnow
437.png
Bronzong
386a.png
Deoxys-A
719-m.png
Mega Diancie
530.png
Excadrill
645.png
Landorus
754.png
Lurantis
310-m.png
Mega Manectric
804.png
Naganadel
793.png
Nihilego
560.png
Scrafty
805.png
Stakataka
245.png
Suicune
800.png
Necrozma

Tier 5 is bottom of the barrel stuff that's just on the right side of viable, barely holding a niche in the metagame. Mega Manectric is just inferior to Zeraora at this point, use that and a real Mega. Scrafty fits its infamous quote. Suicune is super meh, other Tailwind setters are less passive and more useful, while Tapu Fini is much much better for Calm Mind (and generally as a Water-type). Mega Abomasnow is real on stax hail and should be ranked for that. Stakataka is probably viable enough as far as Trick Room options go to be ranked, it can be used together on fullroom with Diancie and offers something a little different. Nihilego is only used on 1.3 teams since it's so weak to a lot of stuff (especially Meta Metagross), and relies on having Z-move to start the snowball, but the good setup Pokemon can do a similar thing better and have access to spread, so Tier 4 is a bit too high for Nihilego. Lurantis doesn't feature in most Trick Room usage, facing competition from Tapu Bulu, Tier 4 is high for how niche it is on what's already a fairly niche archetype.

>>Unranked<<

350.png
Milotic
795.png
Pheromosa
777.png
Togedemaru
763.png
Tsareena
248.png
Tyranitar

494.png
Victini

The bottom of the barrel stuff that really shouldn't be ranked at this point. Even if you think some of this stuff is still usable they're not good enough to be ranked and for people to consider as serious threats or options. I won't talk about them individually since they're basically all just not good or used at all. Other stuff could be argued as well but I think these should be largely uncontroversial.

So anyways that's my noms, reminder that the above is not the new VR, that is being voted on, and be sure to check out the new sample teams!
 
The VR update is now complete!

Changes
:Tapu Koko: T1 -> T2
:Kommo-o: T2 -> T3
:Charizard-Mega-Y: T3 -> T4
:Zeraora: T3 -> T2
:Zygarde: T3 -> T2
:Pelipper: T4 -> T3
:Scrafty: T4 -> T5
:Suicune: T4 -> T5
:Venusaur-Mega: T4 -> T3
:Celesteela: T5 -> T4
:Tsareena: T5 -> UR
:Tyranitar: T5 -> UR
:Victini: T5 -> UR
:Abomasnow-Mega: UR -> T5
:Stakataka: UR -> T5

1694989524238.png
>>Tier 1<<
Pokemon that dominate a large portion of the metagame. They are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon.
727.png
Incineroar
645-s.png
Landorus-T
376-m.png
Mega Metagross
788.png
Tapu Fini

>>Tier 2<<
Pokemon that are generally strong and can easily be placed on a variety of teams, but don't have the same level of prowess as the threats in Tier 1.
719.png
Diancie
798.png
Kartana
646-b.png
Kyurem-B
785.png
Tapu Koko
807.png
Zeraora
718.png
Zygarde

>>Tier 3<<
Pokemon that are generally strong, but less powerful than those in Tier 2 or Pokemon that require a decent amount of support or a specific team style to function well, but are defining pieces to said archetypes.
Aegislash
591.png
Amoonguss
282-m.png
Mega Gardevoir
649.png
Genesect
576.png
Gothitelle
230.png
Kingdra
784.png
Kommo-o
151.png
Mew
279.png
Pelipper
186.png
Politoed
233.png
Porygon2
373-m.png
Mega Salamence
212-m.png
Mega Scizor
786.png
Tapu Lele
003-m.png
Mega Venusaur
721.png
Volcanion
637.png
Volcarona
145.png
Zapdos

>>Tier 4<<
This tier contains either Pokemon that have broad applications on a variety of teams, but are simply less effective than those in higher tiers, or are only particularly useful for certain team styles.
752.png
Araquanid
323-m.png
Mega Camerupt
797.png
Celesteela
113.png
Chansey
006-my.png
Mega Charizard-Y
423-e.png
Gastrodon
380-m.png
Mega Latias
754.png
Lurantis
310-m.png
Mega Manectric
793.png
Nihilego
260-m.png
Mega Swampert
787.png
Tapu Bulu
248-m.png
Mega Tyranitar

>>Tier 5<<
Pokemon that, while they have a niche in the metagame, often struggle to find situations where they thrive, either because of the support required or their poor matchups.

460-m.png
Mega Abomasnow
437.png
Bronzong
488.png
Cresselia
386a.png
Deoxys-A
719-m.png
Mega Diancie
530.png
Excadrill
645.png
Landorus
272.png
Ludicolo
350.png
Milotic
804.png
Naganadel
800.png
Necrozma
795.png
Pheromosa
560.png
Scrafty
805.png
Stakataka
245.png
Suicune
777.png
Togedemaru
>>Tier 1<<
Pokemon that dominate a large portion of the metagame. They are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon.
727.png
Incineroar
645-s.png
Landorus-T
376-m.png
Mega Metagross
788.png
Tapu Fini
785.png
Tapu Koko

>>Tier 2<<
Pokemon that are generally strong and can easily be placed on a variety of teams, but don't have the same level of prowess as the threats in Tier 1.
719.png
Diancie
798.png
Kartana
784.png
Kommo-o
646-b.png
Kyurem-B

>>Tier 3<<
Pokemon that are generally strong, but can be dead weight in some matchups, don't have great matchups vs a lot of Tier 1 and 2, or are only particularly useful for checking a certain team style.
Aegislash
591.png
Amoonguss
006-my.png
Mega Charizard-Y
282-m.png
Mega Gardevoir
649.png
Genesect
576.png
Gothitelle
230.png
Kingdra
151.png
Mew
186.png
Politoed
233.png
Porygon2
373-m.png
Mega Salamence
212-m.png
Mega Scizor
786.png
Tapu Lele
721.png
Volcanion
637.png
Volcarona
145.png
Zapdos
807.png
Zeraora
718.png
Zygarde

>>Tier 4 & 4'<<
Tier 4Tier 4'
Pokemon that have broad applications on a variety of teams but are simply less effective than the Pokemon in higher tiers.Pokemon that, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require support but are still stronger than Pokemon in tiers below.
752.png
Araquanid
323-m.png
Mega Camerupt
113.png
Chansey
754.png
Lurantis
423-e.png
Gastrodon
279.png
Pelipper
380-m.png
Mega Latias
260-m.png
Mega Swampert
310-m.png
Mega Manectric
793.png
Nihilego
560.png
Scrafty
245.png
Suicune
248-m.png
Mega Tyranitar
003-m.png
Mega Venusaur
787.png
Tapu Bulu

>>Tier 5 & 5'<<
Tier 5Tier 5'
Pokemon that can do their job on quite a few teams but often struggle to find matchups and situations where they thrive.Pokemon that serve a specific role and that can only perform effectively on certain teams, often with heavy support required.
797.png
Celesteela
437.png
Bronzong
488.png
Cresselia
386a.png
Deoxys-A
719-m.png
Mega Diancie
530.png
Excadrill
645.png
Landorus
272.png
Ludicolo
350.png
Milotic
795.png
Pheromosa
804.png
Naganadel
777.png
Togedemaru
800.png
Necrozma
763.png
Tsareena
248.png
Tyranitar
494.png
Victini
]/hide]
 
kricketot
55d2910c705887a03a2a75bb02b7fe7e.webp
Yesterday at 4:05 PM

i liked the post for the vr update but this genuinely feels like a psyop


Well, I can't say I'm not disappointed with the SM DOU VR voting results, but I really shouldn't be surprised. My noms had around a 25% success rate, which is similar to what I got a couple years ago. Thought I might do better this time and had been aiming for maybe 40-50%. I had hoped I could get buy-in on my idea of using "objective" usage metrics to help craft the VR, but that doesn't seem to have worked. In fact, it's not clear that my noms had any effect on the voting results.

I may still contribute more VR poasts in the future, but I probably won't put forth the kind of effort I did these last two times. There's no point in that. In any case, I'm still thrilled that we have 3 functioning Old Gen DOU ladders up, and that's much more meaningful than nuances of the official VR.

Re: sample teams and such, as I mentioned previously, I have a different conception of an optimal rain team than the VR council (who have once again left Ludicolo to languish in Tier 5) does. I can't change that, but I can leave some of my best rain teams here to be enjoyed on the ladder and possibly used by an intrepid tour bro or two in future competition. Enjoy!

:Tapu Koko: :Incineroar: :Swampert Mega: :Ludicolo: :Pelipper: :Kartana:
https://pokepast.es/edfc4e34793eeb0c

This has probably been my most consistent water team for the last couple of years. It has the Ludi, Mega Pert, Peli core that has been the most successful for me. I believe this core is good into much of the current Tour Bro Meta as well. For instance, most teams with Mega Gross aren't packing grass coverage (e.g., Kart or Mega Venu) and are very Mega Pert weak. The other pokemons fill in gaps, Incin being indispensible for dealing with Trick Room. Koko (who is def still T1 in my mind) is an excellent fast pivot that kills a lot with LO Thunder. Bulky Kart in water can take a lot of damage. Honestly, I like this Kart much better than max speed Kart usually, as it's very durable, and full speed investment doesn't actually beat too many relevant mons who couldn't be potentially Scarfed anyway.

:Tapu Lele: :Incineroar: :Swampert Mega: :Ludicolo: :Pelipper: :Genesect:
https://pokepast.es/6484cefd1a340559

This team is a variation of the team above. Lele is kinda filling in for Kart as a bulky switch. Despite the Psychic Terrain, I find I still want FO on both Ludi and Incin. Genesect takes over as the fast pivot, but could easily be fitted with different coverage.


:Tapu Koko: :Incineroar: :Swampert Mega: :Ludicolo: :Gothitelle: :Politoed:
https://pokepast.es/a21243e02d96f2d0

This has been my most successful trapping team. It has a strong Mega Pert, Ludi and Poli water core that can easily be played straight and demands switch ins that can often be trapped. Goth + FO/pivots/Ally Switch = good times.

:Incineroar: :Kartana: :Zygarde: :Tapu Fini: :Mew: :Salamence:
https://pokepast.es/b2b357dc7046df02

This has been one of my favorite teams recently. I appreciate having multiple speed control options, which is largely to enable a Zyg rush. The set on Mew could be switched up, but I love the coverage that Ice Beam and Earth Power provides, and it seldom feels like dead weight on the field. Fini is an underrated Z-Move user.
 
37fd3bcb67a3fa4a2c58170abb08bbd4.webp
kricketot
55d2910c705887a03a2a75bb02b7fe7e.webp
Yesterday at 4:05 PM

i liked the post for the vr update but this genuinely feels like a psyop


Well, I can't say I'm not disappointed with the SM DOU VR voting results, but I really shouldn't be surprised. My noms had around a 25% success rate, which is similar to what I got a couple years ago. Thought I might do better this time and had been aiming for maybe 40-50%. I had hoped I could get buy-in on my idea of using "objective" usage metrics to help craft the VR, but that doesn't seem to have worked. In fact, it's not clear that my noms had any effect on the voting results.

I may still contribute more VR poasts in the future, but I probably won't put forth the kind of effort I did these last two times. There's no point in that. In any case, I'm still thrilled that we have 3 functioning Old Gen DOU ladders up, and that's much more meaningful than nuances of the official VR.

Re: sample teams and such, as I mentioned previously, I have a different conception of an optimal rain team than the VR council (who have once again left Ludicolo to languish in Tier 5) does. I can't change that, but I can leave some of my best rain teams here to be enjoyed on the ladder and possibly used by an intrepid tour bro or two in future competition. Enjoy!

:Tapu Koko: :Incineroar: :Swampert Mega: :Ludicolo: :Pelipper: :Kartana:
https://pokepast.es/edfc4e34793eeb0c

This has probably been my most consistent water team for the last couple of years. It has the Ludi, Mega Pert, Peli core that has been the most successful for me. I believe this core is good into much of the current Tour Bro Meta as well. For instance, most teams with Mega Gross aren't packing grass coverage (e.g., Kart or Mega Venu) and are very Mega Pert weak. The other pokemons fill in gaps, Incin being indispensible for dealing with Trick Room. Koko (who is def still T1 in my mind) is an excellent fast pivot that kills a lot with LO Thunder. Bulky Kart in water can take a lot of damage. Honestly, I like this Kart much better than max speed Kart usually, as it's very durable, and full speed investment doesn't actually beat too many relevant mons who couldn't be potentially Scarfed anyway.

:Tapu Lele: :Incineroar: :Swampert Mega: :Ludicolo: :Pelipper: :Genesect:
https://pokepast.es/6484cefd1a340559

This team is a variation of the team above. Lele is kinda filling in for Kart as a bulky switch. Despite the Psychic Terrain, I find I still want FO on both Ludi and Incin. Genesect takes over as the fast pivot, but could easily be fitted with different coverage.


:Tapu Koko: :Incineroar: :Swampert Mega: :Ludicolo: :Gothitelle: :Politoed:
https://pokepast.es/a21243e02d96f2d0

This has been my most successful trapping team. It has a strong Mega Pert, Ludi and Poli water core that can easily be played straight and demands switch ins that can often be trapped. Goth + FO/pivots/Ally Switch = good times.

:Incineroar: :Kartana: :Zygarde: :Tapu Fini: :Mew: :Salamence:
https://pokepast.es/b2b357dc7046df02

This has been one of my favorite teams recently. I appreciate having multiple speed control options, which is largely to enable a Zyg rush. The set on Mew could be switched up, but I love the coverage that Ice Beam and Earth Power provides, and it seldom feels like dead weight on the field. Fini is an underrated Z-Move user.
Love your passion for SM DOU, and I think you have a lot of good teams posted & VR nominations, but I wouldn’t sweat it if all of your nominations don’t match what the end results are. Ultimately that just means you think the mon is a little better than most others do, which is totally fine. The VR is just there to get people new to the tier a rough idea of what’s good.
 

heres the team I used

manectric-mega.gif
landorus-therian.gif
araquanid.gif
volcanion.gif
ferrothorn.gif
dusclops.gif


Manectric-Mega @ Manectite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 132 HP / 160 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Snarl
- Protect

Landorus-Therian @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Def / 212 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Sludge Bomb
- Stealth Rock
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Araquanid @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Atk / 88 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Liquidation
- Bug Bite
- Substitute
- Protect

Volcanion @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Heat Wave
- Substitute
- Protect

Ferrothorn @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Atk / 104 Def / 76 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed
- Protect

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 248 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Toxic
- Night Shade
- Pain Split

This team is pretty bulky and kind of stall but not really. Dusclops is very viable as a TR setter in SM because nothing can really OHKO it and compared to gen6 it has less threats (hyredon, aegislash, gengar), the main threat is Incin sense you do not want evolite to get knocked off. With Double Intimidate I invest fully into SpD. Toxic Night Shade and Pain Split mean that its not super passive which you might think at first, it can get kills.
If you cannot set TR the match up is tough but can be managed with positioning with Double-Sub-Water mons supported by lightening rod Manetric.


I've still been using this team (changes made to some move sets/items) with an amazing success ratio, 3 years later after posting that. With that said I nominate dusclops to tier 5
Its been winning me gen7 room tour consistently. It is such a reliable TR setter, limited in attack is OK because with Night Shade and Toxic this pokemon has a legitimate spot in the SM metagame as a offense to supplement its true viability as a bulky TR setter.

replays from room tour victory (finals)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-1941422743
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-1930682239
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-1926617499
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-1926607901
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-1926611708
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-1909438002
 
Last edited:
I made a TierMaker for the format, are there any mons you all think should be added that I don't already have?
https://tiermaker.com/create/generation-7-usum-doubles-ou-502600
I think it looks fine, nice work! It has all of the mons on the Viability Ranking, as well as a few unranked mons that I'd consider a bit gimmicky but have seen used somewhere at some point in time.

My personal VR would pretty much just be the official one in this thread. There's still a bit of room for innovation and building new teams (I made the effort during year's DPL!) but many SM DOU players these days are often found just re-using existing teams and archetypes because it feels like all the best ones have more or less been built. So to me the current VR accurately reflects the state of the SM DOU metagame.

VR noms are of course always welcome!
 
Here are the teams I built for SM for the oldgen invitational. I think the tier is still very very unsolved - offense and Gothitelle structures are not explored nearly as much as they should be. Please stop reusing 5 year old teams for this tier it's so fun and rewarding to build for!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am really happy with how the MMence + Gothitelle team turned out, in particular. Gothitelle is a stupid Pokemon and enables everything on the team to either trap + OHKO important threats, such as Tapu Fini after SR with MMence or almost anything with Phero's Z-move active, or defensively pin them into a nasty situation. Replays are sadly down but I think the team worked perfectly vs Frania in T16.

(click for pokepaste links)









edit: ban goth
 
Last edited:
1707153269826.png

get ready for some *spicy takes*. This is roughly ordered up until T4. Thanks Veecy for putting together the tier list!

- I don't like Incineroar that much. Knocking Berries is cool and it absolutely has utility into Meta and Kart, but I think it's often easier to just compress the slot with Lando-T and get SR and an Electric immunity in the process. Incineroar + Lando-T is unacceptable into Rain without very, very specific extenuating circumstances. I think this is reflective of my general takes of SM - durdly teams are super easy to take advantage of with Goth, sitting there with Zeraora and clicking Snarl, Kyurem-B, and a bajillion Z-Moves that just rip you apart. Please do damage with your teams.

- Zeraora is absolutely Tier 1. Extremely high usage, extremely difficult to wear down, and the superior pivot mon to Incineroar. Speed is nearly unmatched in the tier and controls games with Snarl and a very fast Fake Out. Super, super annoying to actually knock out thanks to its high speed and Volt and it still has a ton of value at 10%. Official (tm) VR nom Zeraora 2 -> 1

- Kart is the best speed control in the tier, an excellent stopgap for Rain, Metagross, and Fini, and can take over games after a Beast Boost. I think it breaks through Incineroar and Landorus-T with pretty minimal support and the defensive typing is pretty stellar if invested in. Official (tm) VR nom Kartana 2 -> 1

- What on earth is Diancie doing in Tier 2. It's not seeing much usage, anchors a Tier 4(?) archetype in Fullroom, oh boy, and doesn't break through Fini/Kart/Meta unless you go with HP Fire and have your Fairy-type lose to Kommo-O. This could go lower. If you need a formal nom for VR then Diancie 2 -> 3

- Celesteela is really good. Ranking it in 3 is pretty detached from the funny Ground Z set, I think Leech is very hard to break and makes a lot of progress with Rocks. Also benefits from the drop in Tapu Koko and Zeraora mostly running Volt as its only Electric move.

- Volc Just Wins a metric ton of games. We have had 2 weeks of DPL and it has cleaned thrice ( https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7doublesou-745276 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-2045492121-yse5noyzixjmogyirphcgo9zk81xrfgpw https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7doublesou-744822 ).
 
Last edited:
View attachment 601292
get ready for some *spicy takes*. This is roughly ordered up until T4. Thanks Veecy for putting together the tier list!

- I don't like Incineroar that much. Knocking Berries is cool and it absolutely has utility into Meta and Kart, but I think it's often easier to just compress the slot with Lando-T and get SR and an Electric immunity in the process. Incineroar + Lando-T is unacceptable into Rain without very, very specific extenuating circumstances. I think this is reflective of my general takes of SM - durdly teams are super easy to take advantage of with Goth, sitting there with Zeraora and clicking Snarl, Kyurem-B, and a bajillion Z-Moves that just rip you apart. Please do damage with your teams.

- Zeraora is absolutely Tier 1. Extremely high usage, extremely difficult to wear down, and the superior pivot mon to Incineroar. Speed is nearly unmatched in the tier and controls games with Snarl and a very fast Fake Out. Super, super annoying to actually knock out thanks to its high speed and Volt and it still has a ton of value at 10%. Official (tm) VR nom Zeraora 2 -> 1

- Kart is the best speed control in the tier, an excellent stopgap for Rain, Metagross, and Fini, and can take over games after a Beast Boost. I think it breaks through Incineroar and Landorus-T with pretty minimal support and the defensive typing is pretty stellar if invested in. Official (tm) VR nom Kartana 2 -> 1

- What on earth is Diancie doing in Tier 2. It's not seeing much usage, anchors a Tier 4(?) archetype in Fullroom, oh boy, and doesn't break through Fini/Kart/Meta unless you go with HP Fire and have your Fairy-type lose to Kommo-O. This could go lower. If you need a formal nom for VR then Diancie 2 -> 3

- Celesteela is really good. Ranking it in 3 is pretty detached from the funny Ground Z set, I think Leech is very hard to break and makes a lot of progress with Rocks. Also benefits from the drop in Tapu Koko and Zeraora mostly running Volt as its only Electric move.

- Volc Just Wins a metric ton of games. We have had 2 weeks of DPL and it has cleaned thrice ( https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7doublesou-745276 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-2045492121-yse5noyzixjmogyirphcgo9zk81xrfgpw https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7doublesou-744822 ).
I really want to hear your take on Zapdos - personally I consider Zapdos one of the very best Pokémon in the meta so I'm interested to hear your thoughts since you have it in the bottom of Tier 3
 
I really want to hear your take on Zapdos - personally I consider Zapdos one of the very best Pokémon in the meta so I'm interested to hear your thoughts since you have it in the bottom of Tier 3

I tend to build a lot of teams that are weak to Zapdos on paper, considering I use a lot of Mence/Kartana/Fini, but end up being able to just hit it in the face enough to force it into a Roost cycle. Zeraora also tends to do really well, as lowering its SpA with Snarl turns it into a sitting duck and often forces it to take SR/lose a Seed boost coming back in. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-2050954798-ya9lcm403dkbeiknveq73s3d15zy7rlpw is an example of a game where the team is in theory, horrifically weak to Zap, but small chip from Mew can put it into range for a double-up.
 
If you're seeing this one first, I got rank 1 in the gen 6, 7, and 8 dou ladders at the same time and now I want to collect the likes for my efforts.
rank1gen7.png

1715614473545.png
1715614488629.png
1715614508116.png
1715614519513.png
1715614532061.png
1715614543099.png

https://pokepast.es/533d7274599329ca
https://pokepast.es/80336aba8958abbd original from Actuarily

This is good-Pokémon-with-2-tailwind-users. Unfortunately there isn't anything too revolutionary here besides me finding myself enjoying SM, probably a function of both using a better team than I usually do in this gen (I frequently employ Mega Alakazam) and laddering instead of playing tourney bros.
Compared to the original team, the only change is Rock Slide over Protect on Stealth Rock Mega Metagross, which I thought was a pretty cool set. This team is not good into Zard Y + Koko + Genesect/other balance breakers etc. and the ability to snipe a Zard Y was great...in theory. The one time I actually wanted to hit a zard I forgot to click the mega button and got cooked by a heat wave. Not Good. I did really enjoy Rock Slide though and clicked it plenty of times. I also never found myself wishing I'd kept Protect which surprised me.
I also made Zapdos a bit more specially defensive because I was scared of this (given that I might want to set Tailwind beside Zygarde instead of switch):
  • 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Overheat vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Zapdos in Sun: 324-382 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-2122529818?p2 vs n1n1
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-2122538069?p2 I played this guy no less than 5 times
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-2122543506?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-2122605262?p2 vs rain, this one went way better than I thought it would on preview
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-2123376395?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-2123382777?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-2123807817 rank 1 game I almost lost

I don't seem to have the replay but this happened:
Zapdos used Heat Wave!
The opposing Genesect avoided the attack!
The opposing Amoonguss avoided the attack!

Gen 6 Post
Gen 8 Post + screenshots/proof of peaks
 
Last edited:
I've been playing SM more seriously over the last few months, coming from Natdex Doubles, here's my thoughts on the meta
Kartana -> T1. Reasoning: Grass stab annihilates fini, tailwind is good, generally puts out good damage. While it doesn't have good matchups like incineroar does (exaggerated but close enough), it's very slappable
Kingdra -> T2. Reasoning: Rain is broke, big numbers go brr
Kyurem Black -> T3. Reasoning: Ass typing, intimidate cycled to hell. Ice stab is cool but it's usually not the dragon you want
Diancie -> T3. Reasoning: gut feeling
Mew -> T2. Reasoning: fake out, bulk, rocks, tailwind. A LOT of stuff to have in 1 slot.
Lawnmower (Mega Scizor) -> T4. Reasoning: tried building around it, and gets intimidated really hard. And because of that, it can't pull off bullet punch sweeps, and the coverage move has its own problems - superpower is nice, but atk and def drops, bug bite is stronger but bug stab is kinda bad. Losing to incineroar is a big thing too. The sample team works though, so I can't be too hard on it.
Mega Diancie -> T4. Reasoning: gut feeling. I'm pretty sure it's better than suicune and most t5s and some t4s like nihilego.

My own tier list
sm vr.png

https://pokepast.es/7477bab812f58697 (kingdra + megapert rain)
https://pokepast.es/b373dd3ca34e6c39 (HP Ice ZardY + Koko + Kommo)
https://pokepast.es/9198fcb705c42d23 (that Mega Salamence team that Sundays brought through doubles classic and thought was a sample)
https://pokepast.es/a32f33975a3285d2 (a really old fullroom team)
https://pokepast.es/9b06572f4af38294 (Gothitelle + Mega Diancie + Volcanion mediocre)
https://pokepast.es/b692b63c16bb0f4b (Volcanion + bulu boring goodstuffs)
https://pokepast.es/0195e74809004fb3 (Lele + Amoongus + MMeta psyspam)
https://pokepast.es/30394c084834b129 (Moth psyspam)
https://pokepast.es/c91cb2f2d1473a62 (Mega venusaur)
https://pokepast.es/ff43a74dacf2b72b (Moth balance)
https://pokepast.es/38b2f326c0c4c20f (mega gardevoir + bulu tailroom)
https://pokepast.es/1f7876215e9f8f5b (diancie volc semi room)
https://pokepast.es/33e5efd5da8adc95 (naganadel)
https://pokepast.es/c69c1c44bfbd8dcf (kyube + mgarde)
https://pokepast.es/183a7841de9d2e70 (kommo + mmeta)
https://pokepast.es/1e5f43aeb6b565fc (AV sect)

Rain might honestly be broken - while fini is indeed everywhere which helps, kingdra commonly causes trouble against the majority of mons in an average team. See umbry's sample team - most of it dies really fast to life orb rain muddy water.
There's a lot of DOU mons that aren't viable, though that doesn't mean much since locked tiers, which is a good thing. I guess more of them could be moved to 'DOU by Technicality'? idk how that works, i'm dumb.
Trick Room is pretty scary, though there's easily enough tools to deal with it so it's not a problem.
Incineroar being on rain teams is funny. This means nothing.
With a meta this centralised I'm expecting some random shitmon to come up and beat up all of t1.
Roxual healing
Taunt is underrated
Bulu is underrated
Fini and Koko are overrated but still good
Amoongus's best pairing is lele

Glory to SM and glory to 35pokes. Take this meta review as seriously as you want.
 
Last edited:
I've been playing SM more seriously over the last few months, coming from Natdex Doubles, here's my thoughts on the meta
Kartana -> T1. Reasoning: Grass stab annihilates fini, tailwind is good, generally puts out good damage. While it doesn't have good matchups like incineroar does (exaggerated but close enough), it's very slappable
Kingdra -> T2. Reasoning: Rain is broke, big numbers go brr
Kyurem Black -> T3. Reasoning: Ass typing, intimidate cycled to hell. Ice stab is cool but it's usually not the dragon you want
Diancie -> T3. Reasoning: gut feeling
Mew -> T2. Reasoning: fake out, bulk, rocks, tailwind. A LOT of stuff to have in 1 slot.
Lawnmower (Mega Scizor) -> T4. Reasoning: tried building around it, and gets intimidated really hard. And because of that, it can't pull off bullet punch sweeps, and the coverage move has its own problems - superpower is nice, but atk and def drops, bug bite is stronger but bug stab is kinda bad. Losing to incineroar is a big thing too. The sample team works though, so I can't be too hard on it.
Mega Diancie -> T4. Reasoning: gut feeling. I'm pretty sure it's better than suicune and most t5s and some t4s like nihilego.

My own tier list
View attachment 634292

https://pokepast.es/7477bab812f58697 (kingdra + megapert rain)
https://pokepast.es/b373dd3ca34e6c39 (HP Ice ZardY + Koko + Kommo)
https://pokepast.es/9198fcb705c42d23 (that Mega Salamence team that Sundays brought through doubles classic and thought was a sample)
https://pokepast.es/a32f33975a3285d2 (a really old fullroom team)
https://pokepast.es/9b06572f4af38294 (Gothitelle + Mega Diancie + Volcanion tailroom)

Rain might honestly be broken - while fini is indeed everywhere which helps, kingdra commonly causes trouble against the majority of mons in an average team. See umbry's sample team - most of it dies really fast to life orb rain muddy water.
There's a lot of DOU mons that aren't viable, though that doesn't mean much since locked tiers, which is a good thing. I guess more of them could be moved to 'DOU by Technicality'? idk how that works, i'm dumb.
Trick Room is pretty scary, though there's easily enough tools to deal with it so it's not a problem.
Incineroar being on rain teams is funny. This means nothing.
With a meta this centralised I'm expecting some random shitmon to come up and beat up all of t1.

Glory to SM and glory to 35pokes. Take this meta review as seriously as you want.
I've been contemplating making a Scizor-Mega teambuilding guide for this meta for a while, this post has inspired me to finally start writing it. I'll post a link here when done. I have a lot of experience building with Scizor and once took a Scizor team to >1700 on the ladder. It's potentially really good but does require specific supports and has some qualities that make it really hard to build around.
 
Well, it has been almost a year since my last comment on this thread. Time flies! Had a pretty good run in the SM DOU Cup. Getting top seed after the Swiss was cool. That said, like all tours, it's just a few sets once a year, and my greatest Pokémon enjoyment and accomplishments continue to revolve around the ladder. Just a couple years ago, the plan was to ditch the SM DOU ladder and replace it with the SS DOU ladder. Thankfully, that didn't happen, and now the most recent monthly usage data show that the SM DOU ladder currently enjoys about 3.5 times the usage of the SS DOU ladder. I would like to support all the old gen doubles ladders (I try to play each daily, and I've had several stretches where I've had an alt on top of all three simultaneously, including at the time of the initial posting of this comment), but SM DOU will always hold a special place in my heart. I'll share some thoughts on the tier below:

Viability Rankings: Won't put in the same effort as in years past, including referencing stats, since the Council doesn't seem to care about stuff like that, but will still make a few comments re: each tier. To begin with T1, it's ridiculous that Kart still isn't there (formal nom::kartana: Tier 2 --> Tier 1)--and yeah this is like the 4th year in a row I've made this nom! It's the most splashable steel type by a wide margin. Even the sample teams you guys picked have 4 Karts vs 2 Mega Metas. Honestly, I think most people are just doing it wrong.
A lot of people use what they believe is a "bulky" Kart set, but it ends up being not max speed, not close to max bulk and not that strong. Why put all that investment into speed just to maybe outspeed Kyub or Lele (if they are not Scarf), who may run from you anyway, when Kart really wants to just live long enough to be able to set TW and snowball attack boosts? A pinch berry is a terrible item for Kart, as it can never have that much special bulk and it takes little damage from switching into rocks. In contrast, LO Adamant Kart does insane stuff like OHKO a typical offensive Koko 75% of the time (netting an attack boost in the process). Here is a comparison of the "Bulky Attacker" sample set with a real bulky attacker with LO: Kart Comparison (pokepast.es). LO Kart has about 26% better special bulk, 12% better physical bulk and 38% better damage output. Scope Lens is risky, but also fits well with what Kart wants to be.
Fini is the best mon in the tier, especially given some fall off with Koko (its primary terrain setter competition) due to Zeraora (which is legit T2 still). I think Incin is still near the top of T1. Incin is better than Lando T, but Lando is T1, because there are only two good (non-Mega) intimidators. Personally, I would actually kick Mega Meta to T2, because it's not nearly as splashable as anything else in the tier, but I understand that's treated as crazy talk around here.

I think the best Mega is actually Mega Mence, so I believe it should be T2 (:Salamence-Mega: Tier 3--> Tier 2). It's both the perfect Mega partner for Kart and one of the best Kart checks out there. It has Intimidate in its non-Mega form, which is awesome. Aerilate is also amazing, making it probably the best mixed attacker in the game with a powerful, boosted STAB spread move. Tailwind good. Water and fire resistances make it a great weather check, and it is one of the few viable mons to be able to dominate Mega Venu. It is also ground immune (so many teams now try to stack Mega Meta with Incin and an Electric mon and wind up with no ground resistances or immunities). I believe Kommo-o is T2 worthy as well. I agree that Diancie probably belongs in T3. I think Kyub is near the bottom of T2, if not T3, as the 4th best dragon.

T3 mostly looks OK to me. Mega Charizard should be back in (:charizard-mega-y: Tier 4--> Tier 3). This gets a ridiculous amount of neutral kills with Overheat in its set and pairs very well with Goth and Zeraora. Also, I do think Ludi and Mega Pert belong there, right alongside the rain setters and Kingdra, but the tier leaders have massively disrespected non-Kingdra rain for years at this point, so it's whatever. Mega Scizor feels like T4 to me.

Would probably bump Bronzong up to T4 with Mega Camerupt. It's the most consistent Full Room lead setter and its sleep inducement can be huge. Mega Manectric seems more like T5 than T4 lately. Might put Deo-S up in T5, mostly for hazards. I see it more than Deo-A these days.

The Meta: I think the SM DOU Meta is in a good place, generally. Just had one big picture thought: The trend to dump Incin, and often just replace it with Volcarona, seems like it has gone too far in my opinion. I see some allegedly top teams disrespecting Room by running nothing slower than Fini. Room just isn't used as much as in the past it seems. That creates opportunity if you guess correctly (so much of high-level tour play is just bringing the right team and getting a good MU). I think Semi-room/Tailroom is probably the most consistent structure in the Meta, and it can often exploit these kinds of overly speedy teams with manageable risk. Mega Garde, Mew, Goth and Diancie can help anchor such efforts. Also, most teams continue to not really be Rain proof and people continue to not care much.

Teams: I still believe that many of my teams compare favorably with the sample teams selected by the Council. However, many players (even very good ones) seem to blindly use the samples (which everyone is familiar with at this point) when they don't want to build their own stuff. It was a real treat to see veti use a couple of my teams on her way to a top 4 finish in the SM DOU Cup. A competently piloted water team (with more than just one Swift Swimmer) can tear through a lot of the current Meta.

Anyway, here are a few more teams I'd like to share:

:charizard-mega-y: :Tapu Fini: :Zeraora: :Kartana: :Diancie: :Landorus-Therian:
zardy (pokepast.es)
After a fair amount of tinkering, I'd say this is probably my most complete sun balance team. It has Tailroom, two good pivots, rock placement and removal, Intimidate, Fake Out and weather, so it checks a lot of boxes and handles pretty well. I've recently tried with a bulkier Modest Zard, which feels pretty good in the Tailroom context.

:Tapu Lele: :Salamence-Mega: :Bronzong: :Togedemaru: :Diancie: :Tyranitar:
Classic 1: Copy of l1 toge fun (pokepast.es)

This began as an homage to Purple Rain Lele's iconic Level 1 Togedemaru team (which I don't believe I've seen posted, but which several people apparently recreated from replays for the ladder). Of course, I thought about how I could potentially improve upon it. This is my version. Mega Mence adds very useful coverage and resistances, Intimidate and a ground immunity. There is fun with putting people to sleep with Bronzong and destroying them with Toge of course, but it's also a sand team that gives Diancie a chance to shine. This team is very enjoyable to play and probably my favorite Full Room team. Have fun ruining the Meta with it!

:Camerupt-Mega: :Bronzong: :Incineroar: :Diancie: :Tapu Bulu: :Hoopa-Unbound:
Mega Camerupt Fullroom (pokepast.es)

This was initially based on the Full Room sample team. I was playing on ladder with someone who helped build that team some months back and he kept losing to this very competent, but not elite level, player who was using Mega Venu. I thought to myself it was pretty wild to have a Full Room team suffering for lack of Psychic coverage. Anyway, I experimented a bit and came up with this team using Hoopa-U. With P2 gone, it doesn't have the same longevity as the sample set, but it patches up some weaknesses and gets down to business with Hoopa. I like this variation. It's disappointing to me that so many people seem to mindlessly use the sample team, as if it's the only Full Room team out there. All I can really do is offer another option.
 
Last edited:
I'm still working on my Scizor video, which I kind of expanded into a larger video on my teambuilding philosophy, but figured I'd pop in to offer my two cents on the current meta a la variationonatheme. To be clear, I've been in a bit of a funk and am far from my top-ladder glory days, but still like to contribute to the community however I can.
I have a couple little issues with the current VR, but at the moment I don't feel confident enough in any particular assertions to make official nominations - I'll leave that to the people who have actually been playing in tours. That said, I do still feel quite confident in my teambuilding. While not near my previous peak of >1700 ELO on my main account a few years ago, I have broken the 1500 barrier a few times on two different accounts fairly recently using a few teams I've built (keep in mind that the average ELO has gone down significantly over the last few years). From these teams, I thought I'd offer two of my best up as potential samples. But first...

Incineroar's StrategyDex Set: I kinda don't care for the EV spread on the StrategyDex set. I've felt this for a while and decided I might as well say something at this point. The current spread aims to avoid the 2HKO from -1 Jolly Kartana Sacred Sword and outspeed uninvested Celesteela, all while maximizing special bulk. To the first point, the StrategyDex set runs HP / Def investment of 252 / 100, even though 252 / 96 and 248 / 96 also achieve the stated purpose while maintaining more EVs to be invested into Special Defense. To the second, outspeeding uninvested Celesteela strikes me as a very odd choice. The vast majority of Celesteela will opt to run a -Speed nature, since Celesteela is a bulky mixed attacker, with only the rare dedicated special attackers even possibly opting to use a different nature - and even then, -Speed may still be chosen for the improved matchup into Trick Room. As it currently stands, the 12 EVs being put into Incineroar's speed are more or less wasted, and could be directed into Special Defense instead.
Then there is the matter of the chosen Berry. Pragmatically, the only time your specific Berry matters is when it is either eaten, Knocked Off, or Bug Bitten - as this reveals information about your nature, and the latter also may or may not confuse the attacker. With Scizor-Mega and Araquanid being the only viable Bug Bite users, you will basically never be facing down a Bug Bite from any Pokémon not running a -SpA or -Spe nature, with the former being worth slightly more consideration due to Scizor-Mega being a more popular and stronger option compared to Araquanid. Generally speaking, you want to run Wiki Berry if your Pokémon is not likely to run a -SpA nature, Mago Berry if your Pokémon is likely to run -SpA but not -Spe, and then any of the other Berries if your Pokémon is likely to run either. While some players will opt for -Spe Incineroar, I believe this is not really justification not to run Mago Berry most of the time, for two reasons: one, -Spe Incineroar is entirely limited to Trick Room structures, so most teams with Incineroar will not lose much by revealing they are not running -Spe Incineroar. Two, -Spe Incineroar is kind of not good on said Trick Room structures, in my own opinion of course. On these teams, you often want to lead Incineroar to help get Trick Room up with Fake Out, then pivot out on the first turn of Trick Room to let in a sweeper via U-turn. Running -Spe Incineroar undermines both of these goals. A fast Incineroar will be able to prevent opposing lead Incineroar from using Fake Out on your Trick Room setter, while a slow Incineroar can do no such thing. Meanwhile, once Trick Room is set, slow Incineroar will pivot before opposing standard Incineroar, thus giving them a chance to respond to your switch, meanwhile fast Incineroar will do the opposite. All of this to say, I believe the chance to confuse Araquanid or Brave Mega Scizor is worth significantly more than the cost of revealing your Incineroar's nature when it uses its Berry.
Thus, with all of this, I would like to recommend one of the following two Incineroar sets to replace the current StrategyDex set.

:incineroar:
Incineroar @ Mago Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 SpD
Careful Nature
- Fake Out
- Flare Blitz
- Knock Off
- U-turn

A specially bulkier Incineroar with Mago Berry and no Speed investment.
:incineroar:
Incineroar @ Mago Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 40 Atk / 96 Def / 124 SpD
Careful Nature
- Fake Out
- Flare Blitz
- Knock Off
- U-turn

This Incineroar aims for the Special Defense benchmark of avoiding a 2HKO from standard Gastrodon Earth Power, then places the remaining 40 EVs into Attack to slightly increase its offensive firepower.

Now, with that out of the way, let's get to the teams I've prepared! Thanks all for reading!

:swampert-mega::tapu-koko::pelipper::ludicolo::landorus-therian::aegislash:
https://pokepast.es/70779b239dc71609

Eject Button Pelipper is used to potentially set rain twice, as I find this to be more impactful than extending the duration of Rain for these more hardcore Swampert-Mega Rain teams. I felt comfortable opting for Thunder on Tapu Koko thanks to EB Pelipper's ability to set Rain multiple times, but this can always be changed to Thunderbolt if the player prefers. Ludicolo is really nice for helping deal with opposing Gastrodon, which can be annoying for Rain, as well as blocking opponent attempts to disrupt your speed control via its Fake Out. Aegislash helps check Tapu Lele and Kartana, both of whom would be problems for this team otherwise. Though I considered Genesect for this slot, I ultimately opted for Aegislash, as I would rather have an additional Protect user to minimize collateral damage from Swampert-Mega's Earthquake.

:camerupt-mega::tapu-bulu::bronzong::incineroar::diancie::gastrodon:
https://pokepast.es/68d7a9a173ce2719

I've seen about a million different takes on the classic Camerupt-Mega / Tapu Bulu / Incineroar / Diancie core in my time, most of which also include Bronzong, and this is my personal favorite composition utilizing the core. This Tapu Bulu spread will live two Swampert-Mega Ice Punches after Grassy Terrain recovery and 2HKOs bulky Landorus-Therian with Wood Hammer after an Intimidate. The big difference here is Gastrodon. Most obviously, Gastrodon's Storm Drain synergizes fantastically with Tapu Bulu's Grassy Terrain to discourage opponents from clicking Earthquake or Water-type attacks, both shared weaknesses of Camerupt-Mega, Diancie, and Incineroar. Gastrodon also helps out against Rain and Landorus-Therian, thus significantly reducing the pressure on Tapu Bulu. It can also deal with Metagross-Mega without fear of its Stomping Tantrum, who is otherwise very scary to these teams while Trick Room is not set.
 
Hihi, I had a decent SM Cup run and a nice 7-2 récord on SMPL, so I thought on writing my thoughts on this pretty metagame. First of all, my personal take on the meta is the following (Thanks Veecy for having this public!)
1726325815972.png


You can basically run any type of combination from T1 & T2 and have a very good team. Some Pokémon from T3 have a pretty good matchups into some of the combinations from T1 & T2 (but have other unplayable matchups as well), T4 are fish Pokémon that can also do very well into some games but are pretty reduced, and T5 are just funny niche Pokémon.

My hot takes (Be warned I have 0 idea about usage statistic, I'm saying all this from what I saw, I might be wrong in some statements heh)

:tapu-bulu: : This thing can 1v5 a lot of teams if you remove the M-Metagross or the M-Mence from the game. Does amazing into most of the :tapu-fini: :zeraora: :landorus-therian: :volcarona: teams, and also matchups well into the recent rise of :zygarde: . Its great!

:kommo-o: : Probably the worse time to be Kommo-O. Everything has so much Special Defense, and everything somehow deals a good chunk of damage to it, plus Fini is basically the #1 Pokémon in the tier and it's a bit hard to remove it consistently for this dragon to do stuff.

:celesteela: : Another great Pokémon that can do amazing work by just spamming Leech Seed and laughing his ass off. A great example is this game (altough ngl, I probably could've played it a bit better, but ohwell it worked) . Once it gets a couple buffs, pray to god u crit it cuz you're not killing it otherwise.

:charizard-mega-y: & :diancie-mega: : These two are great if they get the matchup they want but cry if they don't. Diancie wants to face Mence, and Zard wants to Face gross, but struggle if they face the other mega. They can still put good work though since they both hit like a truck, but are easier to kill too (Also Zard needs extra hazard control while Diancie needs teammates to cheap everything before so it can KO stuff and not die in the process).

:politoed: Rain :kingdra: : Rain is also probably in its worse state. Again, everything packing spdef + AV, Tapu Fini #1, now you also add Tapu Bulu into the mix (And even MMence since you having to click Draco is super bad on rain) just makes a lot of rain teams struggle to be around. The best current rain team is probably that KyuB MegaPert Goth one, and only because it has physical abusers XD.

:bronzong: Trick Room :porygon2: : Not going to lie I think Trick Room still has a lot of room to grow. Altough the classic Z Hypnosis Bronzong team is still very good, I'd say it isn't the best. Whoever finds the formula for the best best Trick Room, idk, congrats ig, but I do think it can be optimized more.

T4 & T5 Megas: A lot of these Megas are usable don't get me wrong but they basically fish for everything. For matchup AND for the good sets. If you get these two things, they will absolutely carry the game, but yeah thats happening 1/10 games. Honorable Mention to Mega Venusaur cuz as a fellow Stall enjoyer I liked to abuse those fat teams, but thanks to recent development it isn't that usable anymore.

My general conclusion is this metagame isn't solved just yet as we thought it was last year/2 years ago. Ever since DPL, we got to see so many new archetypes and adaptations of old teams, and this just kept happening for both SM Cup & SMPL. It's good to see an old metagame in constant change, I hope it's still like this for more time!

I had typed more before the forum update but when it did it erased my draft so I'm mad and won't type more >:C

(I wanted to do a teamdump but I've realized that more than half of the teams I used were just stolen from another dump or very old teams LOOOL so I won't do one but if anyone is interested in one of the teams I used u can ask me for it and I can share! (hopefully I remember the original creator/where I stole it from......))
 
Why is hoppa-u unranked? He seems to be used in tours with a good niche and seems to be mentioned occasionally in this thread when people speak about viability. I just started playing serious and he seems insanely good when Im playing him, of course ladder players r mostly noobs and there's some demon adamant on running protect stall (confirmation bias probably). But even with that in mind it there doesn't seem to be anyone who doesn't like him on the threads when he is discussed.

Albeit now as I write this I realize it's been a year since a VR update and most of the discussion seems to be more recent so maybe next VR update our little protect breaker will have his time in the spotlight.
 
Back
Top