Metagame SM Doubles OU

Stratos

- OTL
is a Tiering Contributor
Format Rules
Banlist:

Doubles OU is a format in which both players have two Pokémon on the field at the same time. All Pokémon except those on the banlist (found below) can be used in Doubles OU regardless of the Pokémon's tier in singles play. Unlike in VGC, all Pokémon default to level 100 instead of level 50 and all 6 members of the team are brought each game.

Play Restrictions
  • Endless Battle Clause: Players cannot use any moveset on any Pokémon capable of intentionally causing an endless battle. Thus:
    • A Pokémon may not carry Recycle and hold a Leppa Berry in conjunction with Heal Pulse and Milk Drink, Moonlight, Morning Sun, Recover, Roost, Slack Off, Soft-Boiled, or Wish.
    • A Pokémon may not hold a Leppa Berry while carrying Recycle and Pain Split.
    • A Pokémon may not hold a Leppa Berry while carrying Recycle and Fling.
  • Evasion Clause: Players cannot use the moves Double Team or Minimize.
  • Moody Clause: Players cannot use a Pokémon with the Moody ability.
  • OHKO Clause: Players cannot use the moves Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Drill, or Sheer Cold.
  • Species Clause: Players cannot have two Pokémon with the same Pokédex number on the same team
Pokémon Restrictions
Players cannot use the following Pokémon:
  • Snorlax
  • Mewtwo
  • Lugia
  • Ho-oh
  • Kyogre
  • Groudon
  • Rayquaza
  • Jirachi
  • Dialga
  • Palkia
  • Giratina
  • Giratina-Origin
  • Arceus
  • Reshiram
  • Zekrom
  • Kyurem-White
  • Xerneas
  • Yveltal
  • Solgaleo
  • Lunala
  • Magearna
  • Marshadow
  • Necrozma-Dusk Mane
  • Necrozma-Dawn Wings
Move Restrictions
Players cannot use the following moves:
  • Dark Void
  • Swagger
Players cannot use the following moves on the same team:
  • Gravity and sleep moves with below one hundred percent accuracy
Item Restrictions
Players cannot use the following items:
  • Eevium Z
  • Gengarite
  • Kangaskhanite
Ability Restrictions
Players cannot use the following abilities:
  • Power Construct
 

Stratos

- OTL
is a Tiering Contributor



Art by AmirAlexander

>>Tier 1<<
Pokemon that dominate a large portion of the metagame. They are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon.
Incineroar
Landorus-T
Mega Metagross
Tapu Fini
Tapu Koko

>>Tier 2<<
Pokemon that are generally strong and can easily be placed on a variety of teams, but don't have the same level of prowess as the threats in Tier 1.
Mega Charizard-Y
Diancie
Genesect
Kartana
Kyurem-B
Volcanion
Zygarde

>>Tier 3<<
Pokemon that are generally strong, but can be dead weight in some matchups, don't have great matchups vs a lot of Tier 1 and 2, or are only particularly useful for checking a certain team style.
Amoonguss
Gothitelle
Kingdra
Kommo-o
Mew
Politoed
Porygon2
Mega Salamence
Mega Scizor
Tapu Bulu
Tapu Lele
Volcarona
Zapdos

>>Tier 4 & 4'<<
Tier 4Tier 4'
Pokemon that have broad applications on a variety of teams but are simply less effective than the Pokemon in higher tiers.Pokemon that, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require support but are still stronger than Pokemon in tiers below.
Aegislash
Mega Camerupt
Araquanid
Lurantis
Chansey
Pelipper
Mega Gardevoir
Mega Swampert
Gastrodon
Mega Latias
Mega Manectric
Nihilego
Scrafty
Suicune
Mega Tyranitar
Mega Venusaur

>>Tier 5 & 5'<<
Tier 5Tier 5'
Pokemon that can do their job on quite a few teams but often struggle to find matchups and situations where they thrive.Pokemon that serve a specific role and that can only perform effectively on certain teams, often with heavy support required.
Celesteela
Bronzong
Cresselia
Deoxys-A
Mega Diancie
Excadrill
Landorus
Ludicolo
Milotic
Pheromosa
Naganadel
Togedemaru
Necrozma
Tsareena
Tyranitar
Victini
Zeraora
 
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Stratos

- OTL
is a Tiering Contributor
Sample Teams

:politoed::kingdra::gardevoir-mega::incineroar::kartana::amoonguss:
Ezrael's rain
Politoed @ Eject Button
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Helping Hand
- Encore
- Icy Wind

Kingdra @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Muddy Water
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Draco Meteor

Gardevoir-Mega @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 212 SpA / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Trick Room
- Protect

Incineroar @ Figy Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 160 SpD / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Fake Out
- U-turn
- Knock Off

Kartana @ Grassium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Tailwind
- Detect

Amoonguss @ Occa Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 28 Spe
- Sludge Bomb
- Spore
- Rage Powder
- Foul Play
The gameplan with this team is to set up Trick Room and click Hyper Voice for a few turns. Then everything should be dead enough that you can sweep with Kingdra. Or, if you’re facing a Metagross team, you lead with Politoed Kingdra and use Garde later. Button Politoed feels really good because it gives you chances to set up rain and get Kingdra in safely for the next turn. It also gives you a safe switch in TR if you need it. This Politoed is really offensive for max damage, but you could change that around if you wanted to. It also speed ties Incin, which I find hilarious and refuse to change, but feel free.
Kingdra is specs because damage is good. Everything dies. You don’t even have to hit every muddy water, because you will be given a ton of chances to hit it.
Gardevoir has max hp, speed creeps slow Fini and Zapdos. I have Psyshock because it’s better vs Charizard, Volcarona, and Fini’s that have boosted. However, Psychic is better against Volcanion, so that would be a reasonable change IMO.
Incin outspeeds Tornadus in Tailwind because I lost a single test game due to it not doing that. It outspeeds Kartana because the team is Kart weak, and then from there you outspeed Metagross and then Torn.
Kartana has Grass Z to hit Volcanion, which the team is quite weak to, and also just general mons like Fini. Tailwind is really important for endgames.
Amoonguss is critical to protect Garde and help set up TR. Even though the team has no Tapu, Amoonguss finds its way to control by putting flying mons to sleep or sludge bombing tapus. It has foul play because one time in practice I was up 5-1 vs a Kartana behind a sub and almost lost because Shroom couldn’t touch it. I used to be Wiki, but switched to Occa because I didn’t have Protect. Foul play gets most of its use beating up Metagross and Genesect in TR, but makes it so Amoonguss doesn’t not touch kartana. You could switch to HP fire if you want, but I don’t especially recommend it.

:manectric-mega::incineroar::tapu fini::kartana::zygarde::mew:
Stax's Hazards + Pivot
Manectric @ Manectite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 132 HP / 124 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Snarl
- Protect

Incineroar @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Fake Out
- Knock Off

Tapu Fini @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 168 SpA / 32 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Muddy Water
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Protect

Kartana @ Grassium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 72 HP / 252 SpD / 184 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Substitute
- Protect

Zygarde @ Choice Band
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Thousand Waves
- Extreme Speed
- Superpower

Mew @ Mago Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 24 SpD / 220 Spe
Bold Nature
- U-turn
- Tailwind
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Beam
I wanted to make a good banded zygarde team for a long time so that is what the team is centered around. Initially, I started with the generic incineroar, tapu fini, kartana core around zygarde due to their perfect synergy and the general brokenness to that core. For the fifth slot i wanted a tailwind option to abuse zygarde's thousand arrows spam. As more testing occurred I decided that I also wanted stealth rocks on the team to punish the opponent for trying to pivot around zygarde's thousand arrows under tailwind. Mew was the only slot that could do both so it was added on the team. U-turn was initially a throw-away move but it proved incredibly valuable as a way to pivot into a more threatening pokemon under tailwind and to escape any potential shadow tag trap. For the mega slot I chose manectric as the team didn’t have great lead options and it was effective in neutering pokemon through intimidate and snarl from lead so that the tailwind plus stealth rock set up could work. Finally I tinkered with a few set changes like grassium sub kartana that outsped base 100’s for an extra tapu fini check ,which proved a bit broken with more testing, and sassy incineroar to get a slower u-turn versus opposing incineroar. The other sets and ev spreads are pretty self-explanatory. As for using the team, it’s pretty cookie cutter. You generally lead manectric and mew and set up tailwind while pivoting into zygarde. On the first turn of tailwind you set up rocks and spam thousand arrows. From then on you try to overwhelm with the arrows plus rocks pressure so that kartana or calm mind tapu fini can sweep. Incineroar is used as a glue mon and a nice lead vs gengar teams(though those don’t exist anymore). Your general goal for mew is to get rocks plus two tailwinds up to hammer away at your opponent. Rocks on the first tailwind turn is almost always my preferred sequence. Even though this is one of my favorite teams there are a few weaknesses. First off mega latias is extremely difficult to deal with as it can ohko zygarde and wall every member except for tapu fini which is generally defensive anyways. Next, opposing banded zygardes are annoying to due to their trapping ability with thousand waves being able to halt your momentum. Finally another weakness is that if the opponent can survive the tailwind onslaught with a combination of bulky or threatening pokemon they can often reverse sweep you due to the choice lock on zygarde and manectric, mew and incineroars passiveness. Unfortunately I don’t think there is a fix for these issues as pretty much every moveslot is needed for the team to function. I still love the team but it is meant to stomp someone or get stomped on.

:scizor-mega::kommo-o::tapu koko::volcanion::landorus-therian::gothitelle:
SMB's Kommo-o trap
Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 132 Atk / 36 SpD / 92 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Swords Dance
- Protect

Kommo-o @ Kommonium Z
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Clanging Scales
- Flamethrower
- Poison Jab
- Protect

Tapu Koko @ Magnet
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Dazzling Gleam
- Protect

Volcanion @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 188 SpA / 20 SpD / 52 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Heat Wave
- Sludge Bomb
- Protect

Landorus-Therian @ Yache Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 8 SpA / 32 SpD / 212 Spe
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock

Gothitelle @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Def / 104 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Psychic
- Trick Room
- Heal Pulse
- Protect

:camerupt-mega::bronzong::incineroar::diancie::tapu bulu::porygon2:
Everyone's fullroom
Camerupt-Mega @ Cameruptite
Ability: Magma Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Nature Power
- Protect

Bronzong @ Psychium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Hypnosis
- Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock
- Trick Room

Incineroar @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 1 Spe
- Fake Out
- U-turn
- Flare Blitz
- Taunt

Diancie @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Trick Room
- Protect

Tapu Bulu @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 208 HP / 64 Atk / 236 SpD
Brave Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Horn Leech
- Superpower
- Stone Edge

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 16 SpA / 108 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Toxic
- Ice Beam
- Trick Room
- Recover
Use this to ruin the meta

:charizard-mega-y::amoonguss::landorus-therian::cresselia::tapu koko::heatran:
MajorBowman's Bulky Charizard
Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Solar Beam
- Overheat
- Protect

Amoonguss @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 15 Spe
- Sludge Bomb
- Spore
- Rage Powder
- Protect

Landorus-Therian @ Groundium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 212 HP / 116 Atk / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock

Cresselia @ Electric Seed
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Def / 52 SpA / 16 SpD / 112 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Icy Wind
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Defog
- Protect

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 64 HP / 244 SpA / 200 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Protect

:landorus-therian::kyurem-black::metagross-mega::suicune::tapu koko::victini:
Mr.GX's Metagross + Koko
Landorus-Therian @ Mago Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 4 SpA / 12 SpD / 200 Spe
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 112 Atk / 144 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Protect
- Earth Power

Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Ice Punch
- Stomping Tantrum
- Protect

Suicune @ Mago Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 240 HP / 56 Def / 48 SpA / 108 SpD / 56 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Roar
- Snarl
- Tailwind

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Protect
- Volt Switch

Victini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Final Gambit
- U-turn
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
 
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The Gen 7 DOU ladder has been back up for over a month now, and we're going on 6 months since the last update to Gen 7/SM DOU viability rankings took place. I'm just hoping to get a conversation going re: keeping that current. So here are some ideas:

DROPS

Mega Metagross Tier 1 → Tier 2
Mega Metagross is good, but isn't what he used to be. He doesn't fit on many teams (the definition of tier 1). He hates water and fire and trick room, with its dark and ghost types, and his speed tier isn't really good for tailwind. The ever-present Incin eats him for lunch.

Genesect Tier 2 → Tier 3 Scarfed version is pretty predictable. Lacks the splashability of other mon in Tier 2.

Mega Scizor Tier 3 → Tier 4 Not used as much as before and not that easy to fit onto teams really--requires set-up to be effective and there's lots of hidden power fires searching for a Kartana or Genesect that would be happy to toast a Mega Scizor too.

Volcarona Tier 3 → Tier 4 It needs to set up to be effective, which makes it tricky to use. Currently, mostly seen on cheesy "dancer" teams and others trying to use pysch-up.

Landorus Tier 5 → UR Thoroughly outclassed by his other form. Almost never seen.


RAISES

Mega Charizard Tier 2 → Tier 1
The best Mega right now. Brings his own weather, has a boosted spread move in heat wave, has other good attack options and is one of a handful of viable tailwind setters.

Kommo-o Tier 3 → Tier 2 Almost always a threat to sweep and a wincon that needs to be dealt with--a major reason many teams carry Tapu Fini.

Mega Salamence Tier 3 → Tier 2 A great Mega that brings intimidate in his base form and a super powerful/versatile offense with Aerilate after mega evolution, in addition to being one of the fastest tailwind setters.

Mega Venusaur Tier 4 → Tier 3 An incredible defensive pokemon with thick fat. It can stall with leech seed or surprise with sleep powder. It terrorizes fairies with poison. One of the most reliable grass types. Frequently used on top teams.

Ludicolo Tier 4' → Tier 3/4 Ludicolo is at least as good as Kingdra in most circumstances. Grass coverage is critical for water teams and fake out adds versatility.

Stakataka/Bronzong Tier 5' → Tier 4/3 These are prime trick room setters and abusers. One sees them at least as much as Gothitelle or Porygon 2 these days.

Whimsicott UR → Tier 5/5' Whimsicott's got an incredible versatility of useful moves with priority, including tailwind, encore, taunt, fake tears and nature power (effectively providing a powerful priority move). Beat up can also be very viable as part of a team strategy that doesn't solely rely on it.

Anyway, those are some ideas. Let me know what you guys think of these and/or if you guys have others.
 
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Mega Gardevoir Tier 4 → Tier 3

To start, spread pixilate hyper voice is absurdly broken. Fairy type is ridiculously unfair offensively in doubles, pinning the few defensive switch ins to fairy is a very simple task. None of the fire types on the vr barring victini have a great garde mu, and incin's extremely high usage leads to many teams that carry it opting for 0-1 fairy resists. I'm not going to count poison for obvious reasons. This dilemma leads to scenarios where the chosen steel type is usually the only decent defensive and offensive answer to garde in a normal board position. The issue here is every "viable" steel type except metagross cannot reliably beat gardevoir + incineroar at -1. Incin pushes garde over the edge for me, dealing with it defensively is absurdly difficult when you have to factor in fake out and pivoting in combination with hyper voice pressure. Garde is such a flexible mega, it fits well on numerous playstyles, works with every tapu, and provides needed speed control for many teams. I'm definitely convinced garde is astronomically better than every other pokemon tier 4, especially when there's unviable garbage like scrafty there. I could honestly see it as a tier 2 mon in the future, but I think it's better to start with 3.
 
Absolutely agree re: Mega Gard, thinking about it, especially plus Incin (who instantly patches up her bad defense). She gives my teams lots of headaches frankly, especially because she can viably TR or just do an incredibly strong attack, so you're often stuck in a guessing mode at best. I routinely see her on top ranked teams and she's scarier than Diancie in my mind, especially with Mega Gross usage down a bit.

Yesterday, someone on Discord said Gen 7 Dou is "basically dead as far as... metagame development is concerned"..

The ladder is very much alive and there are noticeable trends. It's been over 6 months since the last update. No one's stopping folks from updating the rankings. I appreciate emforbes jumping in. Must be others with opinions too... Gen 7 DOU ladder usage was up last month to over 1/2 of what Gen 8 DOu is. maybe Gen 8 gets a lot better in the next month (sincerely hope so), but no need to ignore Gen 7 while it's around and flourishing. (And I get that some will think the 94,584 games played last month on the Gen 7 DOU ladder aren't useful at all in the development of the Gen 7 DOU Meta, and that only the 50 or so--please correct me if I'm significantly wrong about the number of official games played--Gen 7 DOU games played in official tournaments are important at all, but I very respectfully disagree with that assessment.)

(Also, I feel strongly that Whimsicott should at least get ranked. I'm not the only one who has recently led teams prominently featuring him to the top of the ladder, and there's no other mon in top 20 usage at the highest levels that is not ranked. https://www.smogon.com/stats/2020-05/gen7doublesou-1760.txt)
 
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Level 51

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Dropping in the team I used vs Croven in DPL since it's just one team so this should be fairly quick to write

:porygon2::volcanion::conkeldurr::amoonguss::kyurem-black::salamence-mega: (click me!)
Going into this match I absolutely expected, with some advice from qsns, that Croven would be bringing his Volcarona Sand team, since it seemed like the team of his that had the best matchup against the Shedinja team which had been literally the only team I'd used in SM DOU for like 9 months or something.

YoBuddy suggested that some form of semiroom with Volcanion would be pretty strong against that team, and I noted that Porygon2 was a pretty good TR setter next to it for being able to chunk Tapu Fini and Landorus-T on that team as well as basically always getting the set against it. From there, I added Conkeldurr for more Trick Room-y offense vs the Sand part of the team, which I hadn't covered very well, and I remembered the Poisonium Z set that I had been joking about near the end of SM. I thought it would be pretty funny to Acid Downpour a Tapu but alas that never came to be. After that it was just Amoonguss because it's cool on semiroom and Salamence because it looked right aesthetically. I had absolutely no idea what to put in the last slot and YoBuddy was going to bed soon so I just slapped on AV Kyu-B as a flex pick and then forgot to change it later.

In the end Croven brought cringe TR which I have no idea how to play against but it worked out ok because he missed a couple of Hypnosis shots, fortunately for me. I still probably should've just recycled Shedinja for that match.

Nicknames are all transadditions of CROVEN; they're all formed by adding one letter to the letters of CROVEN and rearranging them.

(That was a remarkably fast write-up, damn. I should do my writing at 2am more often.)
 

Stratos

- OTL
is a Tiering Contributor
We voted on the VR noms today

:metagross-mega: Metagross 1->2
Stratos: 1. this guy will basically never let you down. i cant imagine him not being tier 1

talkingtree: 1. Mega Metagross pairs so well with plenty of huge metagame threats like Koko and Kyub, is easily the most splashable Mega evolution, and is flexible enough with its coverage moves to take advantage of its bulk, power, and speed. Even Intimidate users like Lando-T and Incin aren't exactly save checks thanks to Clear Body and Ice Punch/Stomping Tantrum. Easy T1

SMB: 1. best mega and really splashable

emforbes: 1. it hasn't gotten any worse

MajorBowman: 1. easily top 1 mega, don't see any reason for this to drop

:genesect: Genesect 2->3
Stratos: 2. wiki berry is the best lele check other than mega metagross. i never can make use of scarf but whenever hes used against me i get massively trolled so he's probably cool too

talkingtree: 2. Choice Scarf isn't even Genesect's best set -- I'd say Wiki Berry holds that title. Strong, fast pivot that threatens so much of the meta and has *enough* bulk to not be useless

SMB: 2. i don't think anything has changed with gene, if anything it has gotten better

emforbes: 2. same as gross

MajorBowman: 2. Agree with stratos and tree, wiki genesect is hot and is definitely its best set, cool blanket check to a lot of mons

:scizor-mega: Mega Scizor 3->4
Stratos: 4. hes great in theory but he doesnt end up on many teams, basically just goth and rain. teams that can guarantee him a free setup turn and want koko dead BAD enough to spend their mega on it. so im fine with him moving to 4 unless he comes back in relevance

talkingtree: 3. Scizor is almost exclusively used on the sample team or slight variations of it, but that team is really good and Scizor itself is one of the few Pokemon that's a truly reliable check to both Kyurem-B and Kart. Has the bulk to stomach most HP Fires / random Fire coverage too.

SMB: 3. great bulky win condition with a decent mu vs a lot of common stuff, superpower sets beat its most common check so it's usually a really threatening mon for balance or bulky offense teams

emforbes: 5. rarely even decent

MajorBowman: 3. Pretty solid matchups against a lot of the top mons, definitely not a splashable mega you can just throw on any team but with the right mons around it Scizor is still pretty strong

:volcarona: Volcarona 3->4
Stratos: 3. rage powder volc is actually the best redirector in the meta by far. i dont think qd is great rn though

talkingtree: 4. Now that people are respecting Volcarona a bit more it isn't quite as powerful as it was when it rose to 3. Defog isn't too difficult to fit though, and redirecting sets still have slight utility so I wouldn't want to see it drop more than this.

SMB: 3. i still think quiver dance set is pretty good and sometimes forces you to run some unoptimal moves in order to check it properly, definitely tier 3

emforbes: 3. versatile and consistent

MajorBowman: 3. I'm still a big volcarona believer, both the quiver dance and rage powder sets can get a lot done over the course of a game

:landorus: Landorus 5->UR
Stratos: 5. this doesnt even share a role with lando t. he is uber fast scarfer that ohkoes metagross and kartana

talkingtree: 5. Scarf Lando has a pretty small niche, but it does that job well and punishes teams that try to just check Zygarde with Intimidate.

SMB: 5. rarely seen but solid enough for 5

emforbes: 5. ?

MajorBowman: 5. Lando gets a resounding "meh" from me but I can't deny that it has a decent niche as a scarf mon

:charizard-mega-y: Charizard Y 2->1
Stratos: 2. i too like requiring a defogger and getting flinched 18% of the time by the mega i'm "supposed" to cteam (if i don't just get thunderpunched)

talkingtree: 2. Zard is a little too restrictive in terms of team compositions to be Tier 1.

SMB: 2. requires too much support to be considered tier 1 imo

emforbes: 2. never

MajorBowman: 2. Zard needs a little too much help to succeed for it to be 1, zard teams all have some very specific elements and that's out of necessity and not just coincidence

:kommo-o: Kommo-o 3->2
Stratos: 2. yeah, i guess kommo is pretty good. also dumb that he is the only way to add a second check to himself without typestacking lol

talkingtree: 3. (went 2-3 in DPL btw) I think there are just a few too many restrictions on when Kommo-o is effective. You need to get off the setup, you often need Fairy-types removed, no other Z-Moves can be on the team, etc. I can't deny how good it is when those restrictions are met though, wouldn't be surprised to see this rise.

SMB: 3. great mon but again it requires some support to work, and if it doesn't work out it does nothing and you're using your z move on it

emforbes: 3. never

MajorBowman: 3 but actually UR. bad

:salamence-mega: Salamence 3->2
Stratos: 3. shitty mu vs almost all of tier 1 + half of tier 2. all this thing does is beat even worse Pokemon and troll modest koko users

talkingtree: 3. I think Mence is in the right spot. Speed of a TW setter doesn't matter much in SM anyway, and aside from Kart there aren't many metagame staples that Salamence loves to see on the other side of the field.

SMB: 3. closer to 4 than 2 :I

emforbes: 3. no

MajorBowman: 3. I wish :(

:venusaur-mega: Venusaur 4->3
Stratos: 4. mega venu lost to umbry bringing a fini koko team. i declare him UNVIABLE. u just get volt switched on and do nothing and watch your friends die

talkingtree: 4. Has to focus too much on remaining healthy to take full advantage of what are on paper lots of good matchups.

SMB: 4. too passive

emforbes: 4. no again

MajorBowman: 4. Too much of a do nothing mon, should probably even be 5 tbh

:ludicolo: Ludicolo 4'->3
Stratos: UR. Fuck this Pokemon. Yup I like missing my single target water moves and 4hkoing +1 fini

talkingtree: 5'. Usable on heavy rain but not many other places

SMB: 5'. swift swim mons that beat water types are nice

emforbes: 5'. way better than kingdra when people actually use fini

MajorBowman: UR. It's like...fine? Ludi is kinda cool and probably better than people give it credit for but it's the very definition of only good on one specific team

:stakataka: Stakataka 5'->3
Stratos: UR. This is a bait Pokemon. He looks ok but his winrate is atrocious.

talkingtree: 5'. Diancie took over most of its role as an offensive TR setter, but Stakataka still has that tiny niche that keeps it deserving of its rank imo

SMB: 5'. I think it can fit on some tr teams and do a good job, it's just the general framework for full tr always has diancie. Wouldn't mind dropping this to UR anyways since nobody uses it.

emforbes: UR. unviable setter, waste of a slot on a broken team

MajorBowman: UR. Tough one, I like Stakataka but its niche on full TR is just gone because diancie exists. It can do some cool stuff and hard checks some random top tier mons but otherwise pretty underwhelming

:bronzong: Bronzong 5'->3
Stratos: 5'. Fits on exactly one team. Does its job, but fitting on one team is core 5'

talkingtree: 5'. If you aren't using the fullest of fullrooms then your team has no business carrying a Bronzong

SMB: 5'. only fits in 1 playstyle and does its job = 5'

emforbes: 5'. no

MajorBowman: 5'. agree w stratos

:whimsicott: Whimsicott UR->5
Stratos: UR. bulk and damage are good in sm. disruption isn't really

talkingtree: UR. not good enough to justify ranking. I might not make fun of you for using this Pokemon but you probably shouldn't

SMB: UR. sees no usage and it isn't good

emforbes: UR. def not

MajorBowman: UR. Whimsicott has never been anything more than meme trash

:gardevoir-mega: Gardevoir 4->3
Stratos: 4. always feels less bulky than i want her to be. i get to trade exactly 1 time, then i need to outspeed, and her speed tier is bad for that. kartana-as-lele-check teams are the only ones that really struggle with garde much, and those are falling out of vogue

talkingtree: 3. awesome winrate recently, super dangerous to all non-Metagross teams. read emforbes' nom for more

SMB: 4. awkward speed tier, lacks bulk and requires support or a lot of offensive pressure to work

emforbes: 3. mine

MajorBowman: 4. I love Garde but I'm not sure I'd rank it highly overall, its great damage output is kinda checked by its blatant lack of bulk and it's a very one-dimensional mon

Moves:

:ludicolo: Ludicolo 4'->5'
:stakataka: Stakataka 5'->UR
 

Stratos

- OTL
is a Tiering Contributor
let me post my own vr noms ig:

Zygarde 2->3. Obvious odd man out in tier 2 at the moment; I really couldn't tell you why in a word but I don't think the current meta is kind to him. Everyone's got a Kingdra or a Kommo-o or something.

Kingdra 3->2. So wet right now. 7-2 in DPL including a mirror, granted probably a lot of that is thanks to Emilio's piloting. I'm maybe not 100% sold on this myself but specs Muddy Water deletes Koko-Lando which is the core to beat right now.

Tapu Bulu 3->5'. Did he win in DPL? No. Not once. 0 and 5, baby. He only works on cringe room.

Aegislash 4->5. Not a single use last DPL. I think he's still fringe viable (Memoric has that one Zard team, he got used 4x in Snake) but things in this meta are generally too bulky to fear his Shadow Balls that much and hit too hard.

There are other things that I'm not sure are in the right tier, but these are the ones I'm pretty sure are in the wrong tier.
 
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Well, I appreciate you folks taking the time to vote on all my noms. Honestly, I kinda received an FU, with 2 up noms I had actually going down, and nothing being accepted. It seems like the Smogon leadership treats the ladder and the tens of thousands of games on it every month like a running joke. That's frankly shocking to me, as, for most people, it's all the've got at PS. I guess you guys have been doing things your way for years and will continue to do so. You take a strange pride in your elitism and have a good laugh at the expense of folks on the ladder, while PRL gets a much higher GXE with Stakataka, and DRGpoke does the same with Mega Venu (respect). I don't know if it's a defense mechanism or what, as I imagine most of you have topped ladders at some point, because you are really good--just requires some modifications to win consistently against whatever the ladder might throw at you vs. just having a decent win percentage against the small group who plays in tours. Probably you all will lobby for the Gen 7 ladder to come down after the next Gen 8 drop (if not before), and overall doubles battles volume will drop significantly, you'll be getting more people hanging out in the doubles room asking for Gen 7 games again, but I suppose life will go on for everyone. Gen 8 is better than it used to be I suppose and hopefully will continue to develop and improve, but unless it tries to incorporate all the mons and items (mega stones and Z-crystals)-which would likely turn into a bit of a mess--it can't replace Gen 7. I still appreciate all Smogon does to educate people, myself included.

I'll personally look for opportunities to play the voters with my Gen 7 teams (so far, only had one chance at it--was a decisive win v. Stratos with Ludi, whom he things should be unrated). Stratos noms are fine, but Kingdra certainly doesn't dominate the ladder (the highest ranked rain teams, one of which is mine, don't feature him).

For Gen 7, I will reiterate another suggestion I have. It would be nice if there were scheduled room tours. Many people enjoy Gen 7 DOU, but the Doubles room tours seems to happen randomly, with only a few minutes notice, and to only attract those in the room who happen to be paying attention at the time. Most of the tours now are gen 8, which is fine and makes sense, but, for previous gens, it would be nice if there was some scheduling in advance so interested people could show up, and you would have some good competition from a wide range of players, not just regular tour players and discord commenters (unless that's really not of interest to you guys--and maybe that's the point I'm missing). Technologically, I would think such tours would be easy to set up. Appreciate you guys considering it. Believe it or not, though you guys think I'm a pain in the butt for daring to challenge the way things have been done, I'm just trying to think of ways to make the doubles experience better for more people.
 

Stratos

- OTL
is a Tiering Contributor
So that was you lol. I suspected it was, but it's nice to have proof... You crit my rain matchup (full health Sludge Bomb Wiki Volcanion) with -1 trapped Pert EQ on a turn I was heal pulsing it—

-1 252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 168-200 (46.2 - 55%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Volcanion on a critical hit: 384-452 (105.7 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

—the calc, for reference, then said "these predicts tho" and that the crit was evened out because you also like, missed hydro pump on my Landorus or some shit and trolled me for the rest of the battle. This experience did not make me rate the skill of the SM ladder very highly.

You are not witnessing meta evolution on that ladder, you are witnessing meta devolution as top players stopped playing it. DRGPoke who you cite explicitly regarding Venusaur (and let me clarify, I do respect him, he's a nice guy) was a constant presence in the mid-1600s throughout 2019 using the exact same Zeraora Venusaur team he still uses, and back then 1600s was a much lower score than it is now.

If you can place well in SM Cup with your accumulated Ladder Knowledge then I will be forced to admit this is a foot in mouth post
 
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Um, Stratos, it was just one room tour match long ago. Didn't involve trapped Pert, I'm afraid. So, I'm sorry, but it was someone else who made you stop laddering SM. It does seem like you took that loss very personally, when it was just some very bad luck (which happens to all of us). For our mental health, we gotta try not to do that.

Well, I respect DRGPoke BECAUSE he kept playing with the same team and still achieved so much (getting 1800+ and #1 on the ladder many times). Maybe he improved a bit? I'm sure the ladder misses a lot of good players. On the other hand, now to get to a high level you have to be really consistent beating all the 1300-1400 folks, who are skilled players in their own right with many on their way up, but if you lose it's a 30+ point hit and if you win you get like 4 or 5 points. I'll take more 1500+ games any day.

I take your point re: the ladder being different, but "devolution" isn't fair. There are a number of active players with GXEs higher than yours and many more who would be competitive I'm sure. The alternative is for us to say--well you know 8+ months out from the last update nothing has really changed in the Gen 7 DOU Meta because the Smogon leadership basically stopped playing, except for a few tour matches. The VR have basically been frozen in time. That said, you did put up your own noms, so I respect that.

I believe you guys voted in good faith on all the noms (you in particular were OK to accept a couple of mine), and I appreciate that. It's just you're coming at it from a different place by not having any regard for what's going on in the ladder. Following that logic, maybe you could have a disclaimer that the VR are tailored for those who want to compete in official tournaments and if you're just looking to play on the ladder (like most people) you could consider looking at ladder usage statistics (which aren't easy to find for most people by the way)? I personally think it would make more sense to have the people who vote on the rankings at least aware of what's going on in the ladder and taking that into account, but I understand you guys have a lot of other stuff going on and aren't getting paid for your service.
 

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Late reply to this because I just saw this post, but as much as Stratos' memory of roomtour games is kind of concerning I do think he has a point regarding the ladder. I'm genuinely not sure how coherent this post is because it's like 3:20am, but when I wake up tomorrow I'll probably read over it again and hopefully it will still make sense.
Well, I respect DRGPoke BECAUSE he kept playing with the same team and still achieved so much (getting 1800+ and #1 on the ladder many times). Maybe he improved a bit? I'm sure the ladder misses a lot of good players. On the other hand, now to get to a high level you have to be really consistent beating all the 1300-1400 folks, who are skilled players in their own right with many on their way up, but if you lose it's a 30+ point hit and if you win you get like 4 or 5 points. I'll take more 1500+ games any day.

I take your point re: the ladder being different, but "devolution" isn't fair.
As of right now I have won like 25 ladder games in a row -- most of them high-ladder games, mind you -- with the same Shedinja team I've been using all along, whose RMT is in my signature with EV spreads and movesets and everything. The ladder is nowhere near as active now as it was when SM DOU was the current generation; from what I've seen in the last few battles I've played around the 1600+ mark it has become something of an echo chamber of Rain teams and hard TR teams. Guess what has a great matchup against both of those, that's right, bulky Mega Venusaur balance (topped with whatever other techs he has for hard TR teams, because surely he has some). This is I think what Stratos means by devolution; since there are fewer strategies in popular circulation on the high end of the ladder (for example, I literally cannot remember the last time I ran into Zygarde/Kommo-o while laddering), teams generally don't need to prepare for as many things, and they can afford to get lazy in dealing with some matchups.

With the ladder the way it is, strong players who typically play in tournaments don't see the ladder as representative of the "true state" of the format, and therefore don't bother with it, so the ladder isn't getting an influx of this wider range of team ideas from tournament players. From what I've observed I feel like tournament players are the ones more incentivized to innovate the metagame -- a surprise move or set is much more effective when you're playing a one-off match against an opponent than when you have to run into the same guy 10 times on a small ladder and they'll know your sets inside and out after like 3 encounters. Without these innovations fueling the ladder, it grows even staler. This leads to a further "devolution" of the ladder meta; it's a vicious cycle.

variationonatheme said:
There are a number of active players with GXEs higher than yours and many more who would be competitive I'm sure.
Actually, as of the time of writing (a few days delayed, for sure), Stratos has a GXE of 93.4%, the third-highest on the ladder. But I really don't think that means anything either way; the problem with using GXE as a benchmark is, as above, it's hard to really prove that it means anything. It means you can play consistently well against the teams you face on ladder but... what does that mean?

variationonatheme said:
The alternative is for us to say--well you know 8+ months out from the last update nothing has really changed in the Gen 7 DOU Meta because the Smogon leadership basically stopped playing, except for a few tour matches. The VR have basically been frozen in time. That said, you did put up your own noms, so I respect that.

I believe you guys voted in good faith on all the noms (you in particular were OK to accept a couple of mine), and I appreciate that. It's just you're coming at it from a different place by not having any regard for what's going on in the ladder.
I do think that this is actually not a bad way of looking at it, though "not having any regard" is perhaps a little strongly-worded. The ladder, I think, is probably implicitly handled in the VR on a basic level (e.g. we can all agree Incineroar is Tier 1), since they're both after all based on the same format; however, the developments of the ladder meta and the tournament meta are skewed in pretty different directions due to the players' different "use cases". For what it's worth, I do agree with the voting outcomes; for example, I think most ladder teams I've seen Stakataka on would be improved if they tried Diancie in that slot instead. So, yes, maybe tournament players do not have any regard for the ladder, but perhaps the ladder players also do not have any regard for what is going on in the tournament scene, since they are in their own bubble as well.

(Aside: the ladder/tournament meta divide in this case is actually quite fascinating, if you think about it -- how two different groups of players develop a meta based on what outcomes they need to achieve: consistent play vs a one-off victory against a known opponent -- but that's for another post.)

variationonatheme said:
Following that logic, maybe you could have a disclaimer that the VR are tailored for those who want to compete in official tournaments and if you're just looking to play on the ladder (like most people) you could consider looking at ladder usage statistics (which aren't easy to find for most people by the way)? I personally think it would make more sense to have the people who vote on the rankings at least aware of what's going on in the ladder and taking that into account, but I understand you guys have a lot of other stuff going on and aren't getting paid for your service.
I quite like the idea of the disclaimer, actually. The gap between the SM ladder and SM tournament meta are in fact observably wide enough that I think this is a good idea.

If you can place well in SM Cup with your accumulated Ladder Knowledge then I will be forced to admit this is a foot in mouth post
All of that said, this line's phrasing has pretty mean implications. Ladder players are valid players too, and ladder knowledge is also Pokemon knowledge. Hope you prove Stratos wrong.
 
I've already taken up too much space on this forum, but, Level 51, your post is too thoughtful for me not to respond.

I agree with most of your points. Your Shed team is great. Fantastic for the ladder. I hope you bite the bullet and just go for number 1, if you haven't hit that milestone already. Though you've no doubt had a good run (a lot of which is luck--you've avoided the Terracott menace I guess), your GXE is quite impressive. You can always create an alternate account and just play a ton of games and not worry about GXE if that's a major concern. We put this stress on ourselves to be perfect, but, in the end, this should be something we have fun with, and we should make adjustments accordingly.

I noticed, after my last post, that Stratos had upped his GXE from where I had last seen it. I had taken a break from looking at the standings for a while. Good for him.

The Gen 7 DOU ladder has been a bit slower since the recent Gen 8 drop, and that's natural, though we'll see how things shake out in the medium-long term. It's still very playable most of the time, and waiting for a few minutes to get a game while you browse the news or something is a lot better than not being able to get any games or having to beg for them (as was the case when the ladder was down). I still see Kommo-o and Zygarde on the ladder, but there are more viable pokemon there no doubt. To me the wide variety of pokemon and strategies on the ladder keeps things interesting. Watching some of these tour matches recently, there seem to be significantly fewer in tours. Sure you might have a surprise set in a tour, but even that can't be repeated much if your opponents just learn to expect it.

The major point I've been trying to make here is that the number of players using the ladder dwarfs those in tours, and conscientious leadership would look out for those folks too, even if they're not the most vocal group. This recent SM tour had say 128 players, and it seems to be only once a week. Meanwhile, there have been thousands of players on the ladder every day if you look at the numbers. Designing VR just for tour players, when most users of the VR will be primarily ladder players, seems strange to me, but I guess the tour players are the ones in charge. So, yeah, maybe the disclaimer and a link to usage stats makes sense if that's how the VR are designed.

It is interesting how different laddering and tour play are, because the objectives are so different. Laddering is all about consistency, and a lot of/most laddering is done with one good team that is prepared to face all comers. That's the reality for most players. They will never win any major tours, but they may be able to hit 1400 or 1500 (or whatever milestones they set for themselves) on the ladder with practice and it makes it fun/worthwhile for them.

I can already see from the current tour that touring does not suit my playstyle or lifestyle. It's just a couple games a week until you lose, and those have to be rigorously pre-scheduled. So there's more waiting and stressing than just hanging out for a few minutes till the ladder finds you a match, and then it's all public. You really need to be able to play well with a variety of teams and think about specific team match ups. If you bring just one team, someone will just use a team that specifically counters it, unless it's super balanced (many fine ladder teams aren't). I don't pretend to be as good as Stratos and the like overall. Despite being relatively new to Pokemon, I'm an old guy, with work and young kids to deal with. I will play a couple games most days when I have time, and that's just fine for me. So I won't be proving Stratos wrong (it doesn't even sound like there's much substantive disagreement--the mons I nommed make sense in light of the current Gen 7 DOU ladder, but maybe not in Gen 7 DOU tours, which haven't had much opportunity to evolve)--I wish him luck tracking down the dude who beat him with the trapped Pert crit, if he doesn't have anything else to keep him up at night.
 

Stratos

- OTL
is a Tiering Contributor
I used to think bulky Landorus was a fucking terrible Pokemon but that is because I was using bad spreads. I've been converted. This is the only bulky Landorus-T spread I use (thanks Nails for the skeleton, though I touched it up a bit with my own preferences):

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 208 SpD / 48 dump [def spa spe]
Calm Nature
- Earth Power
- Protect / Stone Edge / Hidden Power Ice
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

Stop pretending like your special Landorus-T does damage. He sets stealth rock, intimidates, volt blocks, and pivots. This Landorus is optimized to do those things. If you want a Landorus that is worse at doing those things in favor of achieving an incredible 27% with its stab attack on tapu fini feel free to use the dex spread.

This Landorus lives every ice attack that isn't Cube or +0 Metagross and actually tanks many of them better than Yache because he can Wiki back. He also lives every attack that isn't ice type significantly better. Unless you really need to be able to set rocks on AV Cube t1 and have no better way to do it (this is actually true sometimes), do not run Yache berry. If you want to Yache through a Metagross ice punch t1 and earth power back, get your head checked.

Run Wiki and Mago berry whenever possible because of Bug Bite and Magician. I prioritize Wiki because Scizor is probably the most relevant threat of the three. You can run Mago on Lando if you are that scared of revealing your set but by the time your opponent sees a super sitrus proc you aren't fooling anyone. If you put Iapapa / Figy / Aguav on anything you are throwing.

Protect is very underrated on Landorus-T. It lets you lead him into fake out + ice attack and come out solidly on top. It also just gives you more options at all stages of the game because it's Protect, and Landorus's other options kind of suck anyway. If you are weak to Zard/Volc or very weak to opposing Landorus you can run the respective coverage move but Protect should be your default. That being said, Stone Edge to hit Zard from lead (trying to avoid your stealth rock) has a lot of merit too.

This is EV'ed to live timid Zard Overheat. It also happens to take exactly 75 min from Gene Ice Beam so you always wiki back. Tapu Lele Psychic does 71 min but you can't win em all.

I prefer to put the dump in Defense because every point increases your chance of living 0 Atk Kartana +0 Bloom Doom (at 48 def it's a 7/8 roll in your favor). Despite my railing against trying to do damage with Lando-T earlier, SpA dump increases your roll on 0/4 Tapu Koko from 43 to 75%. You could EV for 100% (92 SpA) and reduce your safety against Charizard but Tapu Koko is always getting chipped by rocks or life orb so I don't recommend it. Speed is OK especially if you're HP Ice but there's not a real benchmark to hit afaik.
 
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I used to think bulky Landorus was a fucking terrible Pokemon but that is because I was using bad spreads. I've been converted. This is the only bulky Landorus-T spread I use (thanks Nails for the skeleton, though I touched it up a bit with my own preferences):

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 208 SpD / 48 dump [def spa spe]
Calm Nature
- Earth Power
- Protect / Stone Edge / Hidden Power Ice
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

I prefer to put the dump in Defense because every point increases your chance of living 0 Atk Kartana +0 Bloom Doom (at 48 def it's a 7/8 roll in your favor). Despite my railing against trying to do damage with Lando-T earlier, SpA dump increases your roll on 0/4 Tapu Koko from 43 to 75%. You could EV for 100% (92 SpA) and reduce your safety against Charizard but Tapu Koko is always getting chipped by rocks or life orb so I don't recommend it. Speed is OK especially if you're HP Ice but there's not a real benchmark to hit afaik.
fwiw if you choose to dump 44 evs into defense you live -1 jolly mega metagross ice punch
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Landorus-Therian: 320-380 (83.7 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus-Therian @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Def / 4 SpA / 208 SpD
Calm Nature
- Earth Power
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock
- Protect / Stone Edge / Hidden Power [Ice] / Knock Off / Defog
  • -1 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Landorus-Therian: 320-380 (83.7 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Landorus-Therian in Sun: 322-379 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
So I was thinking about just deleting my posts above, after getting trashed on Discord. I thought maybe I'm just a weird interloper who knows nothing about Doubles or the community dynamics. Then, I happened upon this page, with player interviews 4 to 5 years old: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/doubles-ou-player-of-the-week-41-stax.3537370/ and it was, in a word... fascinating.

--I immediately saw that I recognized over half the interviewee names as people currently active and/or currently in leadership positions in the (Smogon/PS) Doubles community. Remarkably low turnover.

--These folks were overwhelmingly young men finishing up HS or in college, and now are in their early to mid 20s. It's still mostly the same group, apparently. (Edit: I don't intend to criticize people for playing Pokemon into their 20s. In case it wasn't clear, I'm much older. Just observing that, unless the demographics of PS users generally have remained centered on that group over those 5 years, you'd expect to see greater variety in an open system. I don't doubt that it could be personally rewarding being in a tight-knit, more closed group--just didn't realize the extent to which that's what the Doubles community has been for many years.)

--A lot of the talking points haven't changed in 5+ years. Almost all of the mons they were talking about during XY were still around in SM. When asked larger questions about the state of Doubles, many people noted it was a tight community, but one they worried could effectively exclude newcomers or said that they would like to increase the player base.

Here's a comment from a Stratos May 2015 interview (on page 2 of the link above), when he was asked about the future of the tier:

"the number one thing that's always on my mind is playerbase. I think we have a great metagame and a great community so the one thing I'm really looking at is trying to grow our playerbase..."

And yet, here's another comment from him in the same interview:

"...the majority of players on the ladder are stinking garbage. I'm 100% serious that I want to divulge [sic] tiering from ladder stats in DOU because there simply is not a weight you can set where the swarms of bad players outweigh the few good ones. the way I see it, the ladder is truly unsalvageable. It's sad, but true. Statistics are just not in our favor. Even at the literal #1 spot on the ladder half or more of your battles are against players with purely unviable teams."

I can at least say Stratos has been consistent regarding his position on the ladder over the years. However, he doesn't seem to realize the inconsistency with his expressed desire to increase playerbase. Does he think new tour players will appear out of thin air and are totally unrelated to the "stinking garbage" players on the ladder?

My experience playing on the ladder is just very different I guess. Even when battling the 1300-1500 types from a top 10 position on the ladder, I often feel like I learn important stuff and my teams are frequently tested (sometimes--shocker--I even lose). I wouldn't think of a team as "unviable" if it could potentially beat me, and playing only tournament "viable" teams would mean you'd never get exposure to a ton of commonly used tactics. Also, I've had many truly epic battles with great players on the ladder.

Recently, I had a couple other ideas for fun tours that might shake things up a bit:

One idea, have clusters of people sign up for time spots to fit their schedule (anonymously). Say you have 8 people, then each person plays the other 7 consecutively with one team (going 7-0 or 6-1 for instance). You'd learn a lot more about each team that way I think. The top 2 players (with ties being decided in a way similar to NFL playoff rankings are) move on to the next round and you could complete a 128 player tournament in 3 segments in a couple weeks instead of a couple months, and many people would come to see the prescheduled tour segments--maybe getting more people interested in participating.

Or another idea, have a "Ladder Tour". Hype it as Tour Bros vs. Ladder Heroes. Sort of like an extended suspect, people would have say 2 weeks to just rank as high as they can (with new teams with special identifiers, e.g., TBVLH1 X) on the Gen 7 DOU ladder. The Tour Bros would take over the top spots on the ladder mostly, but some Ladder Heroes would fight for them and the general quality of games would go way up. You guys would get to play more of the high quality matches you want at will during those weeks. You might even get more people involved from the ladder and Doubles chat room as well.

(Edit: Thanks to the folks letting me know Ladder Tours already exist. My bad. I really never knew what DLT stood for (a lot of acronyms out there). I guess I'd modify the above to say it would be great to try this for Gen 7 DOU now, as the ladder isn't too packed, so player quality could be higher with high Tour Bros infusion. As noted above, I would expect Tour Bros to dominate, but you could encourage current people active on the ladder (who would otherwise qualify as Bros) to play as Heroes. And maybe this and other events could be promoted/advertised more effectively (There's a lot of empty space on PS game screens that could more effectively provide targeted updates--especially for doubles players on the ladder. PS singles players should be a large potential market as well. The Doubles chatroom also doesn't do much active selling for tours, e.g., periodic messages with links to tour info tailored for those who have never been part of them). Also, not sure how DLT is scored (seems to me there wouldn't need to be "qualifying"), but if you just looked at final ladder ranking, instead of win/loss or GXE, then advancing on the ladder should be something good players can eventually do, even though you would run into a large number of very good Bros who might not be accurately ranked in the beginning of the LT.)

Then, when I read the pages linked above, it really sunk in that most of the folks here don't really want any change. The above would conflict with the regularly scheduled tours. I can expect that 5 years from now, mostly the same people will have the same system as before, same cycle of seasonal and annual tours... probably still reliving the glory days of DOU gens 5-7 (unless gen 9 takes a new and better path) and still arguing about what specs to put on Lando. Some may wonder why the player base doesn't expand more, but most don't seem to do much in practice to make any changes.

So Stratos thinks my ideas are crazy and many/most of you follow along. I get it. He's brilliant and a great player and doesn't want to take advice from someone who doesn't dominate tours with accumulated "Ladder Knowledge", but the best sporstball player isn't necessarily the best coach, the best soloist is not necessarily the best conductor and the best actor is not necessarily the best director. He's not the only national merit scholar here. Though I was one before he was born, my mind hasn't turned to mush yet.

Anyway, if anyone who is relatively new to this like me (less than one year in terms of being active in my case) stumbles upon this (hard to do, since google searches still take you to old rankings that don't allow new comments, and no one seems to want to drive traffic to Oldgens (though most of the Tour Bros don't even really like playing Gen 8 DOU themselves), I hope this will at least be thought provoking. Though I know I'll get more trash for this (and Stratos, please no self-harm--these are just observations I've made--maybe honestly ask yourself what you'd like the DOU community to look like in 5 years and how you can get there--Edit: and I'd ask that question to those who are/will be upset by this post as well--if this isn't the time and place for that question, when and where is the right time and place?), here goes nothing...
 
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marilli

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Ladder Tournament already exists, my man. I haven't got a horse in this race (if anything I would be the one speaking against the "DOU Community") but you really need to relax here. Disagreeing about Pokemon metagames is one thing but personal attacks like "wow you're 20 something and you still play Pokemon" isn't acceptable. You've won your r1 SM Cup and you can just keep winning to prove all the doubters wrong.
 
Or another idea, have a "Ladder Tour". [...] some Ladder Heroes would fight for them and the general quality of games would go way up. You guys would get to play more of the high quality matches you want at will during those weeks.
We've been doing this for a few years and surprise surprise, the Tour Bros dominate because they're actually competent. See DLT 2018 I, DLT 2018 II, DLT 2019, and DLT 2020. Whenever they can be bothered to ladder that is, because the matches on ladder still aren't high quality unless two Tour Bros happen to match against one another - something that just ends up being frustrating you because running into a Tour Bro who's ranking up a fresh account at 1300ish is going to be exponentially more difficult than running into a genuine 1300 player. I qualified for two of those DLTs by being European, thus allowing me to get online in the mornings at times where all the US Tour Bros which make up a majority of the DOU playerbase are offline (since it's the middle of the night in the US), which therefore means I just get to farm your ladder friends over and over instead of playing against real players, allowing me to get up there despite not really being that good. The ladder quality is so bad that whether you queue into ladder players or tournament players during DLT is a genuinely huge factor towards whether you qualify or not - and I know this, because I abused this fact myself to achieve results I realistically should not be qualified to reach. This is very evident when you compare my DLT results with my Seasonal or DPL or Classic or whatever else results. I'm a bottom of the barrel tourneybro and I still comfortably mop the floor with your goons.

The community is tight knit and difficult to break into because it's full of people who put a lot of effort into being good at pokemon and constantly getting better at their trade, and people who can't match that amount of dedication just struggle to keep up. The only trade you seem to put time into is making awful posts. Please redirect your efforts towards learning the game if you want your voice to be heard.
 

MajorBowman

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We really need to stop building up this false dichotomy of ladder players vs tournament players. Everyone is free to play DOU however they want, you don't have to pick between the ladder and tournaments. The differences between teams/players you'd find on the ladder and in tournaments are only statistical averages and not some traits that are identifiable or exclusive to one or the other. The fact of the matter is that people who take the time to practice for and participate in tournaments are very likely to have teams and opinions that are more sound and well-rounded because tournaments are generally where the best players go. Again, they aren't the best because they play tournaments, they play tournaments because they want to be the best.

Regarding your callout of Stratos, I don't necessarily think the two bits you quoted from his interview are antithetical. A community is a social group, one with a shared interest and common goal. If you were to somehow define the "DOU Community," including every person that has ever played a DOU game on ladder would be ridiculous because Random Player On DOU Ladder #824 has very likely not put in the time to learn how DOU works or made an effort to make personal connections. And that's totally ok! By no means is anyone who plays on the ladder expected or required to do those things. I probably wouldn't have used the same language he did, but I echo Stratos' sentiment that a lot of the teams you see on the ladder (particularly low/mid ladder) are either filled with memes or just flat out not good, which, again, is totally fine. People are free to enjoy DOU however they wish. You just have to understand that when it comes to determining what is "good" or "viable" in DOU, the average ladder team will probably not be taken into account. Tournaments will naturally carry more weight in these discussions because tournaments are what cause people to put the most thought into their teams and are generally where the best players (in any tier, not just DOU) will congregate. When we talk about growing the community, we mean that we'd love to have more people engaged in conversations and actively participating in every aspect of DOU. Playing 3000 games on the DOU ladder doesn't make you part of the DOU community any more than living in the same house for 30 years makes you part of that area's community. You have to branch out and do more than just exist in a given space to integrate into the community surrounding it.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and posit that the reason you've found the community unwelcoming so far has been your approach. You came into this thread as someone that no one really knew (obviously not a bad thing, everyone here did that) and shared some opinions that people generally didn't agree with. Instead of taking the response and trying to learn from it, you immediately turned it into an "us vs them" and claimed that no one cared about the ladder. Honestly, the fact that you suggested we run a tournament that we've been running since 2017 kinda shows how disconnected you are from DOU at large. Once again, I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, as you can choose to either interact or not interact with the community or the tournament scene at your leisure, but if you're going to start making sweeping statements about the community, it would make sense to at least try to understand it first, no?

I'm not particularly trying to single you out but this conversation has gone on long enough and needs to reach its conclusion. This thread is meant to be a place where we discuss the SM DOU metagame, not where we fight over who is the most qualified to speak. At the end of the day, how we choose to spend our time playing DOU is entirely up to us, and if your opinions don't line up with the masses then take it on the chin and move on. Keep on doing your thing, no one is trying to stop you.
 
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I did not want to post on this thread again, but I ran into another thread this weekend on which I had some thoughts relevant to Gen 7 DOU that I hoped might help people. It's a thread on teambuilding: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/doubles-ou-teambuilding-frameworks.3619759/

It hasn't been updated in almost a year and has had no serious activity for over 2 years. The intro is very welcoming, e.g., "Please contribute as much as possible," but when I try to post it says, "You have insufficient privileges to reply here." So I'm posting here (because it relates to Gen 7 DOU) but if someone can direct me to a more appropriate place, I'm happy to move this post.

I feel like teambuilding resources should be easily accessible for people (I just found the above link myself), especially if you want people to get better and get more involved. People are always asking about teambuilding in the Doubles chat room (and mostly they receive helpful, constructive advice/criticism). Why not add a link to teambuilding (and why not add links for Gen 7 DOU resources while the ladder is still up)? You could just remove the pic of Togekiss (or get rid of "Melmetal Banned" link, which is old news).

Anyway, the list provided is a fine start I think, but only has two general items plus a suggested immunity, with the rest being specific check suggestions:

  • 1 Mega Evolution
  • Form of speed control
  • At least 1 Ground immunity
  • At least 1 Steel Type check (you need to cover both Celesteela and Ferrothorn)
  • At least 1 Psychic Spam check
  • At least 1 Tapu Fini check
  • At least 1 Kyurem-B check
  • At least 1 Zapdos check
  • At least 1 Hoopa-U check
  • At least 1 Eruption Heatran check
  • At least 1 Venusaur check
  • At least 2 Rain soft checks (both for Swampert and Kingdra)

I have my own more detailed general list that I thought I'd share. Of course, all of these are suggestions and you don't need to do all of them to have a very successful team. They are based on my experience with the Gen 7 DOU ladder, but hopefully most would be applicable generally.

  • Good team synergy is the top overarching priority (i.e., mons that work together well).
  • Avoid duplicative typing where possible (except where synergy makes doubling up outweigh negatives, e.g., rain, psyspam--This makes optimal teambuilding very hard--e.g., If you have Mega Gross, then do you give up Kartana, as other good grass choices might be limited with the mega slot gone? If you have Volcanion are you foregoing Incin and Fini?) Mono teams are not competitive generally (though here, for example, is a team that kicked butt with 5 water types: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7doublesou-463045).
  • 1 Mega Evolution
  • 1 Z Crystal --Most of the time this item is too good to pass up. (I actually had a successful team with 2 Z Crystals on hand for necessary coverage, depending on the opponent.)
  • At least one, but preferably 2 mons with "speed control" defined broadly (very high level teams often have both a trick room and tailwind option, for example).
  • Trick room checks (unless you are using full room). Many good players build their teams to be fine in TR, but avoidance can work too. Phasing (e.g., Roar, Whilwind, Dragontail) is underrated and can combine with a fake out user to be pretty effective. Taunt works many times, but you run into herb users who will fry your brain as much as theirs.
  • 1 Terrain Setter (though 2 can work sometimes). So much in Gen 7 Dou revolves around terrains, you really want to be able to have control of this, particularly on the ladder where consistent wins are key. Fini and Koko fight sleep, which otherwise can be very tough (they are the main reasons mons no longer have to carry goggles around). They also fight psyspam. If you want to run sleep, carrying Lele or Bulu would make sense. There are teams running. e.g., Diancie or Mega Gard that don't double up on fairies (though many good teams do--and I would say Fairy is the most important type to have represented), but otherwise including one of the Island Guardians is definitely recommended.
  • Weather? If you don't bring it, someone else will--lots of rain and sun especially. You either need to be prepared to have weather imposed on you or invest something in this regard, which can be as easy as taking Mega Zard or selecting a mostly support rain setter plus one or two swift swimmers.
  • Between 3 and 5 mon running protect/detect. This really is a key move in doubles. Good candidates for foregoing protect are (besides choice item and AV holders) ones with fake out or ally switch and super bulky mon in less danger of being KOd when you lack speed control.
  • 1 or 2 mon with intimidate (good ones are Incin, Lando and Scrafty, joined by megas Manectric (post) and Salamance (pre) though there are a few others that are usable too). This ability is generally too strong to ignore.
  • 1 (or possibly 2) mon with fake out. It's very useful for controlling gameflow (e.g., setting up speed control and avoiding tricks from your opponent), though if you're running Lele, you might forego this move.
  • Priority Moves? For most good teams, 1 fake out user (and sometimes none) would be all they have in this regard. There are only a couple of ranked mon that commonly carry other priority moves. However, fitting in another priority move user can be worthwhile if your team is constantly getting on the wrong side of speed control and/or you need a mid-late game finisher.
  • Spread moves are good in doubles. They defeat redirection. So many times you have an easy KO, but can damage the other mon too if you have spread. At least 2 or 3 mon on your team should carry these as an option. Rockslide on a speedy mon (with possible flinches) can turn the tide when you are losing.
  • When consistent winning is needed (as on the ladder) 100% moves are strongly preferred as a Focus Miss (or the like) can ruin a game you otherwise had.
  • Speed Balance--A team composed of all fast mon could be pretty good a lot of the time, but it would be very bad in trick room. A full room team with no speed is in bad shape outside of room. You want a team that fares well in different speed conditions, so usually you will want to have a slow mon or two. Mons with middling speed who are very bulky (e.g., Fini) can perform their role in different kinds of speed conditions, so they are valuable.
  • Physical/Special attacker balance--optimal would be 2/4 or 2.5/3.5, though 3/3 usually works (i.e., special is slightly preferred). Physical attackers are generally weak to intimidate. If you don't carry any you'll be punished by some teams (hello Chansey), but if you overload you get wrecked by heavy intimidates.
  • Support Mons--Max of 1 or maybe 2. They can be good at helping others shine, but having too many will result in lackluster offense.
  • Pivots--it's good to have 1 or 2 of mon running these (uturn, volt switch or parting shot)--especially when combined with intimidate they can really break down physical opposition.
  • Pinch Berry Holders--Those berries that give back 50% HP are awesome if you can make use of them--that's why they got nerfed in Gen 8. It's good to have at least 1 or 2 bulky mons holding these.
  • Switches--this kind of goes with synergy, but try to pick mons that can reliably switch in for each other on your team. Lando and Volcanion are just one example of many, but switches into an immunity are golden.
  • One or two flying/levitating mons (good type to have and avoids ground moves)--but have too many and you lose benefits of terrain coverage.
  • One steel pokemon--so many resistances and poison immunity (I'm also a fan of carrying one dragon for the defensive benefits where possible).
  • Although broad attack coverage is important, ice, fire, fairy and grass are often especially important coverages to have because they hit common powerful mon with 4 times weaknesses who are resistant to most other stuff. Fighting is also important and can work instead of fire for some pesky steel types (e.g., in rain).
  • Way to deal with powered up mon (phasing or stat resetting--or possibly transform or psych up).
  • Way to deal with hard to kill stall mon (perish song or toxic could work, but a strong physical fighting attack can often do it for, e.g., a Chansey or Porygon)
  • There are lot of different tactics in use on the ladder (e.g., redirection, Klanger or more granular: CS final gambit lead suicides to allow L1 Bruxish to TR and then Frost Breath anger point Camerupt). A good team will have the ability to respond to most if not all of these ploys that could otherwise wreck a good team. I won't list specific mon checks, as, for each team, the problematic ones will vary--you just need to be able to patch up those problems as best you can.
  • Dedicated leads: It's OK to have these and many great teams on the ladder do. Unless you just wanna play all day, most teams you face on the ladder should be new to you. It's good to have a system that works under normal scenarios (e.g., one great team I've seen usually leads with Incin and Mega Gard, who have great synergy together). Fake out and speed control/set up is tried and true--and most TR teams will be setting up TR on the very first turn if they can. Of course, you need to be able to alter this if, e.g., you see a suspected trick room team and have different leads for dealing with that or you run into someone who knows you and feel the need to give them a different look.
  • Surprises: Having one or two up your sleeve is really useful. Most teams you play on the ladder will be new to you, so you can use these again and again with different players. It could be as simple as having an unexpected choice scarf or Z crystal or a complex, weird strategy, as long as it can work. For good players, especially, they will be good at covering the standard choices. So build a surprise or two on your team if you can (and it doesn't make your team suck).

And since I've shared this much, I might as well share some tips/secrets for ladder success (based on my Gen 7 DOU experience, but probably generally applicable--feel free not to click)
  • Go in stealth mode. I used to manually privatize most of my matches. Now they have an option that makes it easy to do, just click on "don't allow spectators". Keeping your games, and especially replays, private is helpful because a lot of people will scout to varying degrees. If you really want to achieve optimal ladder results, especially hiding your team's surprises and coverage, it's better if you don't have any public replays available. Of course, it's super fun to watch games and many players are good enough to achieve a lot on the ladder with very public teams, so if you can do that, great. Others appreciate it.
  • Scouting can help. Do what you're comfortable with. I think people who start a match and immediately go to your replays while you are waiting kind of suck, but it happens. It's definitely worthwhile to find top ladder players and study their games for your edification (also helps if you actually have to play them later of course).
  • Checking who is currently playing on the ladder is helpful since, particularly if you're higher up on the ladder, there may not be too many people near your rank. You can open two browsers and only sign into one and then use the other to see who is out there and watch games anonymously. If there's a team matchup that destroys yours or a team you've played before (and you think them knowing your team might help them) you can just opt not to seek ladder games for a while. Many people play multiple back to back games. So it's often possible to "ambush" a team sometimes if you know they are out there looking for games. You could also get ambushed in this way. (As more people privatize their games, this and the point above may be less of an issue--though it also means if you are not privatized your games will get even more attention).
  • Check your opponent's ranking before you start the match. It took me like a year of playing to figure this out for some reason, but if you hover over your opponent's icon during a match you see their ranking and that helps you determine a lot. For a mediocre player, thinking one step ahead of them and making the correct plays is usually fine. For a good player, you may have to think two steps ahead of them.
  • When playing a good player, surprises matter more, because that player will know your typical counterplay and work to counter that himself.
  • It's OK to keep playing the same team if you want to, as matches are assigned randomly. Most people on the ladder are using one team (which they may modify or replace periodically).
  • If you're good, you're better off not playing many games directly in a row to minimize the chance that you play the same person again (and they know your strategy/moves). On the other hand, you'll have to deal with ladder decay for every day after you hit 1500 ELO, which accelerates at higher levels. If you can play at least a game a day you'll avoid the worst effects of ladder decay. (If ELO doesn't matter to you, then don't worry about decay and focus on GXE or just getting good games.)
  • Pressure good players put on themselves to perform on the ladder is in their heads, but it's real for the perfectionist. Psychologically prepare yourself to lose a lot--it happens to even the very best--and try to have fun and set achievable goals (you can always set more when you achieve those).
  • Take your time. It's usually better to study your options, particularly at critical points in the game (like your leads and when it gets down to a competitive endgame).
  • Friendly conversation is fun and generally makes the experience better for both sides. If you start out the game saying GLHF, don't storm off when you get beat.
I don't pretend to be great at all, but I achieved more on the ladder than I thought was possible. It's been a lot of fun and I hope I learned some stuff. Anyway, hope these ideas may help someone someday...
 
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I used to think bulky Landorus was a fucking terrible Pokemon but that is because I was using bad spreads. I've been converted. This is the only bulky Landorus-T spread I use (thanks Nails for the skeleton, though I touched it up a bit with my own preferences):

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 208 SpD / 48 dump [def spa spe]
Calm Nature
- Earth Power
- Protect / Stone Edge / Hidden Power Ice
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

Stop pretending like your special Landorus-T does damage. He sets stealth rock, intimidates, volt blocks, and pivots. This Landorus is optimized to do those things. If you want a Landorus that is worse at doing those things in favor of achieving an incredible 27% with its stab attack on tapu fini feel free to use the dex spread.

This Landorus lives every ice attack that isn't Cube or +0 Metagross and actually tanks many of them better than Yache because he can Wiki back. He also lives every attack that isn't ice type significantly better. Unless you really need to be able to set rocks on AV Cube t1 and have no better way to do it (this is actually true sometimes), do not run Yache berry. If you want to Yache through a Metagross ice punch t1 and earth power back, get your head checked.

Run Wiki and Mago berry whenever possible because of Bug Bite and Magician. I prioritize Wiki because Scizor is probably the most relevant threat of the three. You can run Mago on Lando if you are that scared of revealing your set but by the time your opponent sees a super sitrus proc you aren't fooling anyone. If you put Iapapa / Figy / Aguav on anything you are throwing.

Protect is very underrated on Landorus-T. It lets you lead him into fake out + ice attack and come out solidly on top. It also just gives you more options at all stages of the game because it's Protect, and Landorus's other options kind of suck anyway. If you are weak to Zard/Volc or very weak to opposing Landorus you can run the respective coverage move but Protect should be your default. That being said, Stone Edge to hit Zard from lead (trying to avoid your stealth rock) has a lot of merit too.

This is EV'ed to live timid Zard Overheat. It also happens to take exactly 75 min from Gene Ice Beam so you always wiki back. Tapu Lele Psychic does 71 min but you can't win em all.

I prefer to put the dump in Defense because every point increases your chance of living 0 Atk Kartana +0 Bloom Doom (at 48 def it's a 7/8 roll in your favor). Despite my railing against trying to do damage with Lando-T earlier, SpA dump increases your roll on 0/4 Tapu Koko from 43 to 75%. You could EV for 100% (92 SpA) and reduce your safety against Charizard but Tapu Koko is always getting chipped by rocks or life orb so I don't recommend it. Speed is OK especially if you're HP Ice but there's not a real benchmark to hit afaik.
It should be worth noting that 8 EVs in Speed lets you outspeed Deoxys-Attack with Tailwind.
 

MajorBowman

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long post
The oldgen discussion forums are locked to everyone, so that's why you weren't able to post there and why it hasn't been updated. Once a new generations begins, mainstream support for oldgen DOU forum resources basically stops, with the contents of this thread being the exception.

The contents of the thread that you copied are definitely pretty outdated, the frameworks thread was a popular resource back in the day but slowly started to lose steam as Gen 7 progressed. The general teambuilding checklist is pretty telling, Hoopa-U, Eruptran, and Venusaur are nowhere near common enough to require their own mention, nor have they been since the first half of gen 7.

That said, this is definitely the right place to bring this kind of stuff up! Anything related to SM DOU is welcome here :D
 

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