Resource Doubles OU Teambuilding Frameworks


DOU Tour Champion
approved by Memoric

If you're stuck on where to go next when building a team, or unsure of where to start, you can check out this thread to find out what successful Doubles teams have looked like and what some of these teams have in common.

Viewing teambuilding frameworks can also be helpful to notice similarities and differences accross compositions to get a better grasp of building with a particular Pokemon or core or archetype.

If you want to contribute feel free to post similarities between successful teams that you've spotted. Your post can be a framework for me to add to the OP, or a comment on an existing framework. Please contribute as much as possible: good discussions are always healthy and welcome on the forums, and it's good practice in team analysis. Also feel free to suggest what team should be added to the frameworks if you think theres something i missed out on.

Tagging stax Level 51 Jhon qsns MajorBowman AuraRayquaza Matame miltankmilk marilli Demantoid talkingtree Memoric Z strats nvakna Nido-Rus Biosci EmbCPT Croven GenOne Kaori in case you want to share your thought process for making the teams. Thank you to all you guys, literally everyone that i asked agreed to share their movesets, which in my oppinion makes it so much better.

Mega Metagross
Aurarayquaza Electrium Zapdos

miltankmilk DD Zygarde

Frania Sand

Stax Cresselia BO

1: Metagross-Mega
2: Steel Type Check

Things like Ferrothron, Celesteela or opposing Metagross are very important to cover as they tend to be the go to Metagross answer. This mon is often viewed as the glue to the Landorus-Electric-Fini core. Victini offers revenge killing support, while Volcarona can act as a win condition. I went with Tyranitar that gives Excadrill sand support and allows it to fullfill both roles 2 and 3.
3: Ground Type
Another steel check, also covers things like opposing Tapu Koko. Landorus-T is the most common choice as it also provides Intimidate and a switch into opposing Landorus. Formes a strong defensive with Metagross as it breaks through steel and fire types for it, while Metagross can threaten ice type pokemon with its steel STAB move, while Excadrill provied an offensive with Swords Dance and also can works as a revenge killer. Zygarde can switch into Charizard Y and use its STAB alongside Metagross.
4: Tapu Fini Check
Dedicated water check, Tapu Koko offers the highest damage output, while Zapdos offers speedcontrol and a ground immunity.
5: Rain Check
The team requires a strong answer to Kingdra and other water types, while it also benifits from a consistant heatran switch in. Tapu Fini was the choice on most of the teams as its the strongest water type in the format, fulfilling both the tasks mentioned. When its paired with Zapdos it allows it to run Misty Seed, while for Tapu Koko it can change the terrain allowing it to make use of Nature Power. Stax went with Calm Mind Cresselia that can set up on all common rain sweepers.
6: Zapdos Check
Featured on most of the teams above, KyuremB just doesnt have a lot of viable alternatives on a playstyle like this. It offers secondary speed control via icy wind, helps check Mega Swampert and Zapdos finishing both the defensive and offensive core with its exceptional typing. In most chooses to run Hidden Power Fire as coverage allowing it to hit Ferrothorn/Kartana for the rest of its teammates. Miltankmilk went with Scrafty as it can endlessly switch into Zapdos and wear it down e.g. with the help of Zygarde.

Mega Salamence
Stax Tapu Koko Offense

Level 51 Icy Wind Suicune

Qsns Z Move Deoxys

Marilli Tailwind Mew

1: Salamence-Mega
2: Psyspam Check

Deoxys can be very problematic for fast, offensive teams, so either sand from Tyranitar or U-Turns from AV Genesect can go a long way in helping that match up.
3: Grass Type
Decidated rain check, is supposed to cover Kingdra and Swampert that threaten most of the other members. Also switches in and shuts down tapu fini. Amoongus / Ferrothorn help deal with trick room that most offensive teams struggle with.
4: Water Type
Secondary Kingdra check can switch in and take advantige of muddy water, also checks Heatran for Salamence. Suicune provides speedcontrol in Icy Wind for its teammates, while Volcanion can take advatige of the good synergy with Salamence and either set up subsitutes or threaten the opposing team. Qsns decided not to run a water type, trading his rain/Lando check for Deoxys that offers immidiate offensive pressure and can make up for the defensive synergies with its damage output.
5: Offensive Support
Here the teams differ the most, Marilli decided to go with Mew that helps out Salamence with fake out while supporting the team with tailwind, Stax went with Groundium Z Landorus that can set up stealth rocks while providing a substantial damage output. Qsns's Lando is AV providing a strong defensive pivot while L51 added aegislash to complete his defensive core.
6: Tapu Fini Answer
While the grass types may be checking Tapu Fini defensivly fast teams need a more direct way of dealing with it. Tapu Koko may deal a lot of damage/OHKO depending on its set, while Tapu Lele from Level 51 can set up Calm Mind and hit it with a boosted Psyshock.

Mega Gengar

Matame Pinch Lando

Jhon Psychium Tapu Lele

Demantoid KyuremB Balance

Kaori Rotom-W

Biosci Scarf Tapu Bulu

1: Gengar-Mega
2: Fire Type Check

Gengar can stuggle against specially bulky fire types such as Heatran or Volcanion and can be set up on by Volcarona.
3: Ground Type
Ground is an important aspect of the defensive backbone, making sure the team can switch into Tapu Koko or Mega Tyranitar. Intimidate from Landorus-T supports the the Shadow Tag trap and allows Gengar to stay on the field longer, its good offensive synergy with Gengar is part of the reason why it was picked on all of the teams above.
4: Landorus-T Check/Speedcontrol
Gengar is weak to ground so naturally it needs something that can switch into Landorus-T. All of the pokemons also provide speedcontrol that can be essential, while trapping.
5: Tapu of choice
Part of the reason to run Gengar is for its ability to trap opposing Terrain Setters and allow Tapu Lele to make full use of its offensive capabilities in Psychic Terrain, the same applies to Tapu Bulu in Grassy Terrain that Biosci run.
6: Steel Type
Mandatory answer to things like Scarf Tapu Lele or Deoxys that otherwise can threaten the team immensely. They help handle offensive steel types like Metagross under Tailwind.

Mega Scizor
miltankmilk Scizor + Scrafty

MajorBowman Icium KyubremB

Nido-Rus Gothitelle

Frania Sand

1: Scizor-Mega
2: Ferrothorn Answer

While Scizor itself isn't very much threatened by Ferrothrons STAB moves, it can get worn down by Leech Seed and its teammates appreciate a faster way of getting rid of it (most Scizor might struggle to KO it even at +4). I decided to run KyuremB to help against the ground types allowing me to run Heat Wave Zapdos in slot 5.
3: Ground Type
A ground type is almost mandatory on every Scizor team for its fantastic defensive and offensive synergy with the Mega. They switch in and threaten the fire and steel types, while Scizor takes advantige of ice type moves.
4: Water Type
They switch into Kingdra and fire types and check Landorus-T that might want to switch in to Intimidate the Scizor. Lv51 went with Volcanion that covers both Ferrothorn and Kindra and that allowed him to run Gothitelle in this slow to offer Trick Room support to its team members.
5: Electric Type
Electric Types hit bulky waters and improve the offensive pace of the teams with either immidiate damage output (Tapu Koko) or speedcontrol in tailwind (Zapdos).
6: Zapdos Check
Finallly something Scizor struggles against is Zapdos that either gets of a free Taiwlind against it or KOs it with Heat Wave. Tyranitar checks Charizard Y and KyuremB helps against rain and offers speedcontrol. Scrafty, while not a traditional counter, offers Fake Out support that allows Zygarde to beat Zapdos more easly.

Mega Manectric
EmbC Tornadus

Demantoid TW Kartana

miltankmilk BD Snorlax

Level 51 'VGC team'

1. Manectric-Mega
2. Rain Check

Most players opted to go for Tapu Fini, while miltankmilk went with Tapu Bulu. Both options are very common and consistent rain answers, they also help deal with ground types that Manectric might struggle with.
3. Speedcontrol
Even though Manectric base speed is pretty high as it is, you still need speedcontrol to support your teammates and to ensure you don't get outrun if you opponent is using it. The most popular option is to go with Gothitelle, due to the Shadow Tag ability that Manectric synergizes well with thanks to its Intimidate ability and wide coverage rage. Tornadus and Kartana are both offensive TW setters that allow for a TR-less alternative.
4. Ground Type
Ground types help hit opposing electrics and benifit from Manectric being able to hit bulky waters. Landorus-T was used the most as it provides the much wanted ground immunity, still Zygarde is an equally viable option that can make up for it with its ability to use its STAB move next to grounded partners and resistance to fire type moves.
5. Zapdos Check
While Manectric in regular form can redirect electric type moves from Zapdos the teams still need a direct way of hitting it, disallowing it from setting up Tailwind or using its overage. The teams that include TR decided to go with Snorlax as it can set up on it without taking much damage, others went with Tyranitar and KyuremB that can threaten it directly.
6. Steel Type
Steels round up the defensive core, making sure the team doesn't loose to Psyspam or Metagross also they provide a secondary switch into Salamence. Its worth noting that all players decided to run a slower, bulky pokemon in this slot, acknowledging that, while Manectric teams can run offensive, hard hitting mons, they always want a good defensive backbone.

Mega Tyranitar
Aurarayquaza 'fire team'

Stax Togekiss

Jhon Excadrill Sand

Memoric Scarf Lele + MTar

Frania Subsitute Celesteela

1: Tyranitar-Mega
2: Tapu Lele

"I would say scarf lele + mtar is a very good core too, being able to block bp from scizor and also outspeed + ko marsh is huge." - AuraRayquaza in DOU Effective Cores. Tapu Lele is on every featured team for a reason, its a fantastic check to all the fighting types and forms an unresisted core between its psychic and both Tyranitar STABs.
3: Intimidate / Landorus-T Switch In
Intimidate helps the DD Tyranitar set up, while Landorus-T needs to have a solid counter as its the biggest and most common answer to MTar. Jhon decided to go with Excadrill that doesnt switch into Landorus but provides extra offensive support, making use of Tyranitars Sand Stream.
4: Ferrothron / Grass Answer
Ferrothorn is one of the harders Tyranitar counters avaliable, while Amoongus can take take any of its moves even at +2 and put it to sleep with Spore. Volcanion gives the teams a secondary rain answer, while Heatran switches into Tapu Lele better. Celesteela can set up substitutes and hit steels with flamethrower, but what made me decide to run it was its ability to switch into Metagross lacking Thunder Punch.
5: Redirection / Rain Check
Redirection helps Tyranitar set up Dragon Dances and Amoongus as a grass type also helps check rain sweepers that can outrun it with Swift Swim and threaten with water moves. Stax decided to run Togekiss (that offers Follow Me) in his other slot so he decided to run Ferrothorn as it checks rain even better.
6: Tailwind
Tyranitar is naturally rather slow, so even with Dragon Dance the team requres another form of speed control that will allow it to deal with faster teams, weather sweers or to match opposing Tailwind.

EmbC Victini SemiTR

Marilli Screens Tapu Koko

MajorBowman AV Koko

Stax Mega Gyarados

1. Snorlax
2. Steel Type

Steels helps against the problematic Deoxys/Tapu Lele and can switch into Metagross and Salamence. Snorlax teams appreciate having a strong defensive backbone as it gives them time to position and set it up at the best possible time.
3. Electric Check
Tapu Koko is a big issue for all SemiTR teams and even though Snorlax can check it with High Horsepower it still can cause a lot fo trouble with taunt / its z move. Most players chose Landorus-T as it gives the team Intimidate and a ground immunity, while Stax decided to go for KyuremB as it has very good offensive synergy with Tapu Koko that hes running.
4. Rain Check
While Snorlax can check most of the rain attackers it would get overwhelmed if it had to do it by itself. Most players went with a rather an offensive option, with EmbC opting for the defensive Tapu Fini.
5. Electric Type
Electric types are used to check Salamence and threaten water types outside of Trick Room. Tapu Koko sets up electric terrain, which helps against sleep users, especially in TR, while Manectric provides Intimidate and coverage that can threaten most of Snorlax answers.
6. TR Setter
Trick Room is almost necessary on Snorlax teams, as it allows it to set up / attack first, also giving it control of when it wants to recycle. If you're running Belly Drum then TR is a must. All players chose a different setter: EmbC went with Victini that can threaten steel types, Marilli picked Mew that offers Fake Out and Transform support, while Stax went with Gothitelle that helps find Snorlax the best position to set up and can heal it with Heal Pulse. Finally, MajorBowman decided on HoopaU that is able to set up on plenty different special attackers and that can provide strong offensive pressure when TR is up.

Semi Trick Room
Demantoid Stakataka

miltankmilk Fire Punch Snorlax

marilli CS Tapu Lele

Frania Thunder Punch Mawile

SMB Camerupt

1: Mega Evolution
Most often SemiTr teams choose to run Salamence as their Mega of choice. It offers Intimidate, Tailwind with its mixed flying coverage it synergizes well with HoopaU and can offer a strong fast most option for this kind of team. Alternative options inlude Gengar that can revenge kill with its high base speed and allow the team to position better with Shadow Tag, while Gardevoir is able to set up Trick Room and check KyuremB. Mawile and Camerupt offer support to the Trick Room mode with their offensive pressure.
2: Salamence Counter
Due to the slower nature of the team a mixed sweeper like Salamence could be very problematic. Every team chooses a strong flying resists that can either take its hits comfortably or outspeed and OHKO it. Demantoid run HP Ice Gengar in slot 1, so he decided on a soft check in Tapu Fini, that can reward him in other areas.
3: Rain Check
A bulky water or grass is necessary for the team not to get overpowered by rain. Most players choose Tapu Fini as it also allows HoopaU to run Misty Seed, Amoongus is also an interesting option that helps set up Trick Room with redirection. KyuremB synergizes offensivly with Tapu Koko, while Assault Vest lets it funtion as a solid defensive answer to Kingdra and Swampert. Tapu Bulu can check all of the viable water types and threaten with terrain boosted attacks.
4: Trick Room Setter
The core member of the team, HoopaU is the most common choice, due to its fantastic special defense and ability to break protect with Hyperspace Fury/Hole. Porygon2 is an viable alternative that holds a better Landorus-T match up and can set up Trick Room more consistently thanks to its good bulk and access to recovery moves. Stakataka is more of an offensive option that trades the shaky defensive typing for very high damage output.
5: Fast Mode Suport
Helps function the fast mode outside of Trick Room. Players have a little bit more freedom here: Marilli decided to go with Tapu Lele allowing Amoongus to use Spore with Psychic Terrain Support, while me and SMB went with Landorus-T that offers Intimidate, Stealth Rocks and Knock Off for Snorlax. Matame and miltankmilk decided to go with Curse Snolax that can funtion both inside and outside of TR.
6: Ferrothorn/Metagross Check
Both steel types can threaten this kind of team offensively: the former in TR and the latter outside of it. Matame decided to forgo a direct way of hitting Ferrothorn, instead using it as a set up bait for Snorlax. There also funtion variants of the team where it turns Fire Punch over High Horsepower.

Full Trick Room
GenOne Double Steel

Croven Meloetta

Frania 3atk Mawile

Marilli Sky Drop Thundurus-T

1. Mega Evolution
The mega evolution tends to be the more important offensive member of the team and both Camerupt and Mawile are that - TR attackers. The former is the most popular option, is preferred for its strong synergy with Tapu Bulu and very high damage output, while the latter can break through a lot of offensive teams, with its coverage often teams don't have a proper counter.
2. Tapu Bulu
Every team has the same pokemon in slot 2 and that is Tapu Bulu. Its a perfect rain check, it threatens out Tapu Fini too, in general the fire+grass core seems to be very very effective on Trick Room teams as there isn't much that can handle grassy terrain boosted attacks if the other teammate can take care of the steel types.
3. Bulky TR setter
Every team above has a pokemon that can set Trick Room 'no matter what', meaning its bulky enough to take even super effective attacks and with the right ev's should be able to get it up at least once, especially if paired with Fake Out support. It allows the player to trade big damage on the pokemon the turn its set up for the momentum afterwards. Bronzong can also run Stealth Rock and put opposing pokemon to sleep with Hypnosis, while both Porygon and Meloetta are immune to ghost type attacks with the former having access to Recover and the latter being able to use Sing.
4. Offensive Support
Another dedicated TR attacker, GenOne and Croven decided to go with Stakataka as it can also function as another setter, i went with Safety Goggles Heatran to make sure i can get around Amoonguss. Marilli went with CS Thundurus-T that can try to revenge kill opposing pokemon and help set up TR with Sky Drop.
5. HoopaU
With its good bulk and ability to break Protect, while having access to Trick Room makes it a perfect attacker that is almost a necessity on most full-TR teams.
6. Scrafty
Scrafty provides Fake Out and Intimidate, two things that are considered clutch for setting up Trick Room. While people have thought and tried possible alternatives for this slot, none of them have proven to be consistent/worth running.

Nvakna Psychic Seed Milotic

Z Strats Mega Gyarados

Biosci Ludicolo Psyspam

Marilli Zygarde Psyspam

1: Tapu Lele
Terrain Setter.
2: Deoxys-A
Terrain Abuser.
3: Speedcontrol
While Deoxys and Tapu Lele (possibly Choice Scarf) make up for a fast duo already, they often need Tailwind to either outrun faster CS users or opposing weather sweepers. Nvakna decided to run better coverage on his Salamence over any speedcontrol options and rely on his defensive backbone to handle opposing sweapers.
4: Rain Check
The psyspam core is outspeed and ohko'd by any viable weather sweeper so naturally the team needs a way of checking them. Marilli decided not to run a traditional rain counter, instead he chose to have his own Draco Meteor Kingdra that at least forces a speed tie and a -2 drop in the worse case scenario. Biosci run a Ferrothron fulfills the requirement for both 4 and 6, giving him a 'free slot' where he decided to run Ludicolo, making use of rain that Politoed sets on his team.
5: Steel Type Check
Steel types are one thing that psychic types can't break through and while every team featured here uses a diffrent pokemon in this slot all are used to break though the most common steels. Biosci decided to run Gengar that only hits Metagross, with life orb Deoxys and other offensive movesets, he was hoping to overpower Ferrothorn and other steel types that he didn't have direct counters for.
6: Steel Type
Another member with defensive utility purpose, steel types help check opposing Scarf Lele/Psyspam teams. Metagross is a worth noting choice as it also benifits from the Psychic Terrain.

General checklist:
  • 1 Mega Evolution
  • Form of speedcontrol
  • At least 1 Ground immunity
  • At least 1 Steel Type check (you need to cover both Celesteela and Ferrothorn)
  • At least 1 Psychic Spam check
  • At least 1 Tapu Fini check
  • At least 1 Snorlax check
  • At least 1 Kyurem-B check
  • At least 1 Zapdos check
  • At least 1 Snorlax check
  • At least 1 Hoopa-U check
  • At least 1 Eruption Heatran check
  • At least 1 Venusaur check
  • At least 2 Rain soft checks (both for Swampert and Kingdra)
Individual player teambuilding process:

miltankmilk -
AuraRayquaza -
Level 51, Frania, GenOne -

The point of noticing frameworks like this isn't to limit creativity or say "you MUST build this way." this framework catalogue exists as a resource for when you're starting out on a new team to help you take a top level thing and put your own spin on it. - Stratos

I really want to make frameworks for Mega Diancie, Venusaur or Charizard Y, but you guys gotta start winning with them more, so i have some material. Hope you enjoy.


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please tell me you're seeing this too.
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Here are my teambuilding thoughts on some of my teams that were included
This team started from the idea of Specs Koko + Mega Abomasnow. Offensively this core is pretty potent with nothing resisting BoltBeam coverage while also covering a range of speed tiers, able to function in and out of trickroom. The next steps of the team were finding ways to better dent Steels like ferro and tran; my solution was a core of Z marsh and Volcanion. I've been loving Volcanion for a while and I felt it fit well on this sort of team with Trick Room support and good ways of breaking past bulky waters that can annoy Volc + a great koko answer in Aboma. Next step was to add trick room and I felt Aurora Veil/Trick room mew would do well here. I saw Jhon try this out as well as Level 51 so I thought I'd put my spin on it. Went with Psychic to hit harsh harder on the switch. Last was shuca Ice Beam tar. This was a glue mon that was able to soft check landorus-t while also handling Gengar via pursuit. Together I think its a pretty cool hail team.

This started pretty last minute but I think it ended up as a pretty complete team. Idea was to build around SD Scizor and see what came out of it. I went with a very fast scizor that outpaces neutral nature Volcanions because I knew I wanted tailwind on this team. I also liked it to generally outspeed Pokemon like Fini, Kyurem-B, Milotic; those sort of middle speed tier mons. Next step in building was CB zyg + zapdos, a balanced core that compliments Scizor quite well in that it deals with both fire types and bulky waters. Zap also gives tailwind and helps vs Lando-t which annoys the first 2. Tapu Fini also helps vs fires, gives Zapdos a misty seed boost and can heal pulse back Zygarde and Scizor. Scrafty provides intimidate and fit better than Lando because of weird type stacking with Zygarde. Fake out is also very nice here as well as knocking off berries for Zygarde and Zapdos. Counter provides a panic check to some physical attackers as well. Last mon was Z move volcanion which is a really cool nuke and sludge bomb lets you hit fini/bulu harder than its Stabs.

This team started with the idea of building lax semiroom. Lax was falling off a bit in usage but I still felt fire punch curse lax was very good. One of its best partners is hoopa because of its role as an offensive trick room setter which can often act as a natural redirection for lax, (that is where its hard for the opponent to not attack hoopa in fear of trick room going up, which can give Lax a free curse). Another pokemon that complimented this well was CB tar, a very strong pokemon that I felt does very well on semiroom teams. Heal pulse fini once again helps ttar/hoopa/lax survive longer and provides a good fighting type answer here. Salamence gives secondary speed control, a secondary fighting answer and generally compliments the weaknesses of ttar and hoopa quite well. Last mon is once again volcanion because of its ability to break steel types and eat up hits while still being very strong.

This was a bit of a weird team but I was inspired to use Z move deo + lele because of how powerful these two are. Kaori and I were also talking a lot about HP fire on Deoxys as a way to catch checks on the switch and not drop stats and keep a "potential sash" in tact. Lele is choice scarf here because the team otherwise lacks a scarfer but this could be changed to a taunt variant of tapu lele for a better trick room answer. Marsh is LO hp ice because I didn't feel shadow sneak fit very well on a psyspam team and Deo already had the team's z move. Amoonguss provided a way to soak up some hits and allow deo to fire off more attacks while also helping Salamence set tailwind. As mentioned, mence sets tailwind and helps to chunk pokemon for marsh and celesteela late game. The celes is a pretty cool set that works as a late game cleaner. Its able to be quite bulky with the Seed boost while also having the coverage to break down a weakened team late game.

hope this is helpful to some people!
Ill go into a bit more depth on the mgross + victini team since i rmt'd the m ttar team so my teambuilding process can be found there, with gyarados added by suggestion from stax and clear smog over tect to reflect that change since i needed a way to keep lax in check without lando.

So I built the team before facing toxigen for ssnl, so after metagross had gone 4-0 in snake. Id seen level 51 use hammer arm as coverage which i wanted to try out (originally had brick break for veils owo). I thought victini would be an interesting partner to help break steels and get some nice 1 for 1 trades to potentially give gross some momentum/free turns. Lando was the easy next choice with rocks + max hp to pivot around well and be a decent marsh switchin. Rocks also let gross/tini pick up some nice ohkos/2hkos like v create on marshadow and iron head 2hko on bulkier lando. I was then looking for rain/better mence checks so i added the fini zap core which gives me a nice bit of both. It was initially seed zap but then i realised i didnt have a z move and thought a faster electrium zapdos would be cool after jhon told me about it. Finally i added kyurem b just to solidify the mence/rain matchup, extra speed control and a good volcanion check with hp fire as another way to lure ferro.

Hope this helped!
I'm really happy to see this revived - in ORAS this was probably the resource that was most helpful for me to improve as a player.

Although I have a few nitpicks on the fine details of this revamped Frameworks thread, for the most part it looks great and Frania did a great job of compiling a list of solid, high-level teams, so thanks for all of this, Frania!

My first comment is, given how many good teams are in this thread, why not compile a "DOU Starter Pack" so those keen to get good at DOU (or even experienced users that just want a fresh perspective on the meta) can easily test and cycle through all these teams? I've conveniently gone ahead and compiled all of the above teams into a single Hastebin, in case people want to do a bulk download of all of them:

(To import these, go into your teambuilder, go down to the bottom, and select "Backup/Restore all teams." Paste the above hastebin content to the bottom of the text that shows up in your Backup/Restore text.)

Now, for my specific comments re: this initial version of the Frameworks:
  • Mega Salamence
    • Arguably, Tyranitar isn't a Psyspam check - especially now that Z Move Deoxys-A is more popular and doesn't care about sand chip damage. I think the teams you selected for this framework are great, but most of them already have Psyspam checks that aren't TTar. Level 51 had Aegislash, Marilli has Mew and Ferrothorn, and qsns has a Deoxys-A mirror. If there isn't another role you can assign to this slot, imo there's no harm in just making this a "filler" slot given Salamence builds tend to be pretty forgiving in terms of team composition, but "Psyspam Check" doesn't really resonate with me given that 3/4 of these teams are using TTar in this slot.
  • Mega Gengar
    • Where you mention Tapu Lele - another really important reason why all these teams run Lele is because Mega Gengar loses to Marshadow without protection against Shadow Sneak.
  • Psyspam
    • I'd just list another version of the rain Psyspam team that has Marshadow > Zygarde, since that's arguably the most common composition for this build. You could use Miltankmilk's version of this team since it's already a sample, but really, it's such a common build that there's probably no shortage of teams you could post here. But yeah, there should definately be a Marsh Rain Psyspam team here since Marsh arguably beats down Ferrothorn / steels more efficiently than Zygarde.


DOU Tour Champion
Thanks for the feedback GenOne, on the Salamence framework i decided to list Tyranitar as a Psyspam Check, since some of these teams appriciate sand breaking the Deo sash + a CS user that is able to rk it, as much as if they were to run a proper counter. You bring up a good point about Gengar, ill add that. While Marshadow is the more common option (featured on 3/4 rain teams) Zygarde has a case for itself, with its surperior bulk and diffrent typing. Marilli also runs Hammer Arm Metagross so Ferrothorn shouldn't be as much of a problem. I try to keep the teams diverse, so id rather avoid having two teams in one framework by the same builder.
I would recommend adding back the general checklist as well. Otherwise, great job!

General checklist as it was before:
  • 2 Fire resists/counters
  • 1 Ground immunity
  • 2 Steels checks
  • At MOST 2 pokemon that have difficulty dealing with Steel-Types
  • At least 1 Steel Type
  • At least 2 Soft Psychic Spam checks
  • Counters for both Celesteela AND Ferrothorn
  • At least 1 Hoopa-U counter
  • At least 1 Water-resist
  • At least 2 Mega Salamence counters


a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
I like the general checklist and I feel most of your issues with it arise from interpreting it as a stringent "must-follow" guideline, whereas it's more of an outline. Yeah, you don't always have to have a Ferrothorn counter, but generally you want to have one on most teams. The Roles Compendium first off fulfills a very different function while also not really giving you that checklist and degree to which certain things need to be dealt with. In addition, the Roles Compendium visually is a lot more "noise" or "data" than the general checklist is, in terms of how accessible they are as team building tools - it's more a tool of "ok what can I put when I think I have issues with x" rather than "what are all the boxes I need to check that I may be looking over for my team". The checklist ended up on frameworks mainly because it's both a useful teambuilding tool and also something that circled around but never had a thread to be put into (the original checklist was created and passed around by Stratos during gen 6 before being put into the thread).

Overall I don't think it hurts

also to address one thing

For example for offensive teams you probably always want a Zapdos check, but i wouldn't say it's needed for semitr teams
If the req being checked off in this example is "Zapdos Check" then having TR would be that zap check (ie hoopa beats zap easily both bc tr > twind and bc of coverage stuff)

Onto a more general comment on frameworks, I found it easier to understand if the clearer, more directly interactive roles were placed earlier (ie X-type, or literal X-mon) while things that were more nebulous or varied more between the teams were placed later. Also, could we retitle the semi-tr framework into a "Mence+Hoopa-U" fw? Ordering frameworks by approximate viability could be helpful (ie psyspam and rain before hail)

Overall loving this update, really glad someone took over the frameworks thread and did the work to give it a much needed revitalization!


DOU Tour Champion
- added checklist
- the order of the frameworks is: mega evolutions in terms of viability, then playstyles in terms of viability.
- if you have any ideas more specific on how to improve the team roles on frameworks i made so far feel free to suggest it here/pm me and ill concider it. only two frameworks (mence and hail) have a slot that isnt a very direct role and in both cases it is in the 5th slot, so i dont really see whats the issue is?
- i like the semiroom name better for the mence-hoopa framework just so i can add something thats not limited to that in the future. you can run hoopa on a salamence offense so i dont want people to be confused on why all the teams there include trick room
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DOU Tour Champion
ok so what i gathered from team dumps and other resources:

from Level 51:
Since I don't usually build teams around my speed control option, I had some vague idea that I wanted to use some sort of balance team with Suicune. Unoriginal and VGC-idea-thief Level 51 thus decided that it would be a good idea to run a version of the Sand balance archetype that dominated post-Worlds VGC 2015. Of course, it wouldn't be until semifinals that I actually had the balls to use the Pokemon that I personally called out in the same post in which I enthused about Gothitelle, and thus I eschewed it in favour of Tapu Lele as a "fast Sand abuser". In another departure from the standard choice, I also decided to use a Tyranitar with SR and Pursuit to put some dents in what I presumed would be a switch-heavy team from Jake[his Snake Draft opponent].

I've explained this like 2738492348 times to anyone who tries to shittalk Gothitelle, but Gothitelle + Scizor is amazing. Scizor is a Pokemon that does well against most of the format but struggles with a few things: it has a bad time with being chipped slowly due to its lack of a moveslot for Roost, it lands just on the wrong side of getting a few KOs, especially if it's Intimidated, and most importantly, it's 100% forced out by almost any Fire-type that switches into it. Gothitelle fixes both these problems, and more: it prevents Fire-types from switching in, usually; it traps Fire-types that are already in so that Volcanion and Landorus-T can take care of them; it pushes Scizor's offensive capabilities over the edge with Helping Hand; it provides healing for Scizor in the form of Heal Pulse; and it even offers the team an additional Trick Room option for Scizor and Volcanion to take care of. Volcanion in particular appreciates being able to make use of its neat Fire/Water STAB coverage without the opponent switching out a lot. Finally, there's the Koko / KyuB combination to round out the team and give it some immediate speed and bulk. I really like this team and I think it was my favourite from the whole of Snake, so props to Nido-Rus for that :P

Essentially, now that Marshadow is gone, GothLax has lost one of its biggest counters. The relatively soft-hitting metagame gives Gothitelle a lot of options on what to trap and Snorlax a lot of options on what to set up in front of. Manectric and Landorus-T are meant to cycle Intimidate while maintaining flexibility on the team with Volt Switch + U-turn, with Manectric also providing Snarl to neuter special attackers. These two Pokemon also feature the team's main ways to damage Ferrothorn, with Overheat and Tectonic Rage respectively. Meanwhile, Celesteela and Tapu Fini are both secondary wincons in themselves, especially Tapu Fini which can set up alongside Gothitelle's Heal Pulse support. Both Pokemon also provide reasonably hard checks for Rain (NB: Acrobatics on Celesteela OHKOs Ludicolo).

from Frania:
Metagross provides more immediate offensive pressure and can help excadrill get around bulky lando's with ice punch. This functions in the framework of the old metagross balance team. SD excadrill with the z iron head has been something i was trying to make work for a while now and im happy it provided me with another positive result. Its aimed to punish bulkier, balanced teams, meanwhile the bulky defensive backbone of kyurem-zapdos-fini helps against the more hyper offensive rain teams (and trick room).

It combined the rather new idea of using Mawile and P2 on serious teams, while showcasing a cool moveset in Thunder Punch with terrain support. I think its a very basic team, with z move landorus and tapu koko functioning as a fast mode that still can support the TR mons with rocks and electric surge and the expanded slow mode was able to get through most defensive match ups and it definitely works as the core of the team with p2 being able to set up multiple trick rooms if needed.

from GenOne;
The general idea with this team was to build a full-Trick Room team that leverages two offensive Trick Room setters, one bulky/reliable Trick Room setter and some slow sweeper mons. Bronzong is the a bulky and reliable Trick Room setter that can help create momentum in the early game by boosting its accuracy with a Psychium Z-boosted Trick Room, then spamming Hypnosis once Trick Room is set. In most scenarios, I'll lead this team with Bronzong as my goal is to set Trick Room as early on as possible. Generally I'll go for the Z Trick Room, but if you're faced against a Tapu Fini or Koko you might find it worth saving the z move for later in the match since Bronzong has enough bulk to set TR twice in a game given the right plays. Scrafty gives you obligatory Fake Out support against non-Lele teams. For Lele teams, I'll usually lead two of the three Trick Room setters, creating a 50/50 situation where one will set Trick Room and the other can either punch a hole in the opposing team (given the right matchup) or pivot out into a partner that can take the anticipated attack. Once Trick Room is set, your goal is to switch into strong attackers like Camerupt, Stakataka and Hoopa-U while Trick Room is still up. It’s worth noting that Scrafty and Tapu Bulu have very particular investments in Speed IVs; both are IV’d to move after Hoopa-U so that Hoopa-U can break protection ahead of Scrafty and Tapu Bulu’s targets. The extra speed on Scrafty also lets you win speed ties when clicking Fake Out against opposing min-speed Scraftys outside of Trick Room (e.g. during a lead). Given the good defensive typings on Bronzong and Stakataka (as well as the generally solid special bulk on Hoopa-U) you will find plenty of situations where you have two of these three TR setters on the field as your Trick Room is about to expire, with no opposing Pokemon that can KO either. If you're in this situation, click Trick Room on both setters; the first will cancel TR and the second will reset it, thereby giving you another 4 turns of TR while bypassing the one turn where your opponent can pressure you with faster attackers. Only attempt this play, however, if your two active TR setters are safe from all hypothetical opposing attacks or if you're willing to make a hard read that's well-informed.
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