Let me guess, the other 2 moves are Defog and Mortal Spin
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Nah, instead of Mortal Spin is Court Change.
I feel like a large bulk of this post is really hitting the nail on the head. As it stands in SV i think there's no real Chi level threats anymore for obvious reasons--But there are a lot of deeply 'unhealthy' things that exist and make playing the tier a bit miserable at times. I feel like if say, Spikes, were made less reliable to put down it'd go a LONG WAY towards making average Spikers more usable (maybe even chipping some Gilscor sets to make them run it, making it less violatile) but it'd make a headaches in the teambuilder, meta, etc slowly ease itself
I don't think Samu is obviously op for example, but the ease of which spikes are set really do feel like too much sometimes. Combine that with a lot of usual strong mons needing to run boots to cut their own power levels, and it creates an incredibly frustrating MU fishing comp at times lol. I don't even think Ghold is op by itself, but its ability to just nullify a lot of hazard removal is deeply frustrating. Especially when paired with Samu in the usual hazard stack comps.
Feels like part of the reason HO is good as it is, you care less about raw HP at times since outputting dmg regardless of % is usually the bigger goal. Rough!
Tidy Up and Strength Sap but they’re not really relevant because they only have one relevant user
Ceaseless Edge is bullshit but not because it’s powerful, it’s bullshit because it’s not 100% accurate. I can forgive you for not knowing this because of your inactivity but I am quite supportive of the attack, in fact.
Court Change is a funny move. Back when I was laddering with Ausma’s Kyurem team for reqs I used it to steal enemy Aurora Veils and screens.
Those are 5 and 4, but not Top 3
Insert poor Gholdengo joke here
My brother in christ, wtf
Agreed. With this in mind, the solution is clear. We need to unban Urshifu to end all this stupid cheese. Tera Ghost will send all these cheap strategies out of the tier and make the meta a better place. Blocks Rapid Spin, blocks Body Press, ignores Protect, and Wicked Blow and Surging Strike ignore the cheap Strength Sap Attack drops. That leaves Tidy Up, but sadly this broken move and all the powercrept Pokemon that learn it cannot be stopped. However, getting rid of four out of the five is a good start.
Love the post, and I’ve been saying be should be more willing to ban what is unhealthy/not fun for the sake of format enjoyment. Gliscor should go not because it’s the second coming of Arceus, but because it promotes bad play patterns while perpetuating SV hazards problem. With more and more Pokemon being created, and GF showing no signs of curbing power creep we need to reshape how we think/approach this game.
do you just love hazards or smt? do you hate heavy duty boots? why do you hate strength sap? i have so many questions
SU, or SubzeroUsed, is something that exists. Barely.
OU is explicitly meant to be the most permissive tier, allowing the maximum amount of "things" - moves, mons, items, mechanics, etc. - that is compatible with a competitive and not-overly-centralized metagame. Banning things for the sake of potential 'improvements' runs contrary to OU's most basic, fundamental concept, because then it wouldn't be allowing the most "things" possible.
Hazard prominence is a function of lack of removers, not a function of Gholdengo - banning the string cheese man adds Corviknight as a reliable Defogger, and that's it. No lower tier Rapid Spin or Defog mons are going to suddenly become OU-viable; Scizor is OK and would likely be usable, but it's not going to be a major OU presence.
Really. What other than an increase in Corv, and the odd Scizor appearing, is going to be used in OU for hazard removal without Gholdengo that isn't already used?
Hazard prominence is a function of lack of removers, not a function of Gholdengo - banning the string cheese man adds Corviknight as a reliable Defogger, and that's it. No lower tier Rapid Spin or Defog mons are going to suddenly become OU-viable; Scizor is OK and would likely be usable, but it's not going to be a major OU presence.
Really. What other than an increase in Corv, and the odd Scizor appearing, is going to be used in OU for hazard removal without Gholdengo that isn't already used?
Mandibuzz, and maybe(and I do mean MAYBE) Conkledurr could see usage with Ghold gone. Also even if it’s just Corv and Levitate Geezing just the fact that teams no longer have to worry about it relieves a lot of pressure.
Is anyone using tera stellar after we ban Tera Blast?
I know it would be "wah wah banning a whole thing just to allow a potentially balancing great mon to the game and we haven't made any decisions like that before except a few others that don't count!" But?
I've said this before and I'll say it again. If we address the hazard stack problem, it should be Hamurott/Ceaseless Edge because that is the one thing that would streamline counterplay. Spikes is the main problematic hazard. You take away the Spikes move that counters both Taunt and Magic Bounce, you suddenly have way more reliable denial across the board. Something like Iron Crown could also become a more reliable anti-lead without Hamurott around, for various reasons.
Banning Ghold frees up Corv as an OU level Defog option. That's basically it. Geezing is niche and already defogs on Ghold. And really, Corv is still good as a Defog mon. You just need to have an answer for Ghold like Ace or a team that doesn't lose with Webs on the field.
Banning Gliscor does nothing related to hazards when other bulky Spikes setters like Ting-Lu, Skarmory, and Clodsire exist. You would just have more teams replace it with a different bulky spiker.
As for HDB spam, we had this in gen 8 even though there were more Defog options and no Ghold to stop it. In fact, Blissey became better than Chansey because it could run boots instead of Eviolite. Boots would probably always be a team style since the ability to ignore hazards is good. But it's not strictly necessary even in gen 9, outside of maybe stall.
Banning Ghold frees up Corv as an OU level Defog option. That's basically it. Geezing is niche and already defogs on Ghold. And really, Corv is still good as a Defog mon. You just need to have an answer for Ghold like Ace or a team that doesn't lose with Webs on the field.
Banning Gliscor does nothing related to hazards when other bulky Spikes setters like Ting-Lu, Skarmory, and Clodsire exist. You would just have more teams replace it with a different bulky spiker.
As for HDB spam, we had this in gen 8 even though there were more Defog options and no Ghold to stop it. In fact, Blissey became better than Chansey because it could run boots instead of Eviolite. Boots would probably always be a team style since the ability to ignore hazards is good. But it's not strictly necessary even in gen 9, outside of maybe stall.
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There are a few mons who use it sporadically, such as greninja, zamazenta and slither wing (apparently????, I got these from the usage stats). There's probably others like iron boulder, iron valiant and iron moth that I've heard about.
It is definetely niche though, I won't lie.
S
I do think we should be more willing to ban. But I think with as truly as complex as this game is it should be more than a game of subtraction until we're satisfied.
I feel like as much as they focus on doubles Nintendo does give us the tools to make a decent singles game and we may determine it needs some tweaking but our dogma of playing purely whole pokemon subtraction feels dated!
I get not making it extremely complex but uh I think there's SOME wiggle room
I agree it's a good post and I agree but id say his ideal meta goes back further than this gen? Or last even!?
I do think we should be more willing to ban. But I think with as truly as complex as this game is it should be more than a game of subtraction until we're satisfied.
I feel like as much as they focus on doubles Nintendo does give us the tools to make a decent singles game and we may determine it needs some tweaking but our dogma of playing purely whole pokemon subtraction feels dated!
I get not making it extremely complex but uh I think there's SOME wiggle room
personally i've used tera stellar as a non-blast tera type on hilligant, deo-s, valiant, darkrai, and a few others. i imagine there are other late-game mons who would appreciate the boosts and are capable of ending games efficiently enough that they wouldn't mind losing them after one use each. it's been over a year but i still think that stellar is very very underexplored
I've tried them too. It was uh fine but not usually worth using rather than saving my tera for kingambit.
In an effort to be -least complex- a stellar ban could be put into place for the turtle rather than the SUPER COMPLEX no mega evolve rayquaza rule used in the past.
I'd be fine with either. Im fine with neither currently. I'm just talking here. Turtle isn't my priority but as people mention its potential utility without the stellar turtle I'm just encouraging exploration of that thought train.
The turtle can only tera stellar, it has no other choice
I meant stellar ban for everything -for- the turtle to then be viable in OU. Since that would be, by my understanding of smogon dogma, less complex than banning the use of stellar for the turtle alone.
With Tera blast banned, stellar tera type would hardly be missed.
Just talking here
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From a tiering policy standpoint, you'd need at least one other mon to be problematic with Tera Stellar, even though the collateral damage is close to zero.
Changing tiering policy w/r/t targeted bans, with Terapagos as an exhibit of the benefits, is possible (if really unlikely), but that's a topic for Policy Review, not OU Metagame Discussion.
Changing tiering policy w/r/t targeted bans, with Terapagos as an exhibit of the benefits, is possible (if really unlikely), but that's a topic for Policy Review, not OU Metagame Discussion.
honestly i'm more impressed than anything, i don't think i've ever seen a post get haha'd, angry'd, wow'd and sad'd before a single like or love react
Banning Garg would streamline counterplay against physical walls but I don't see anyone besides myself talking about that
In an era where we have the most stupidly overpowered (in terms of ability to remove hazards) hazard removal ever seen I find it hilarious that people are still mad about this. No, you do not get to complain about spikes when all it takes to remove hazards is to throw Great Tusk or Iron Treads at literally fucking whatever is in the way.
my brother in christ. first, you complain about Choice Scarf. Then Rapid Spin. Now you're saying that I can switch my Great Tusk in on a Gholdengo or my Iron Treads in on a Zamazenta and let it use "the third most annoying move in the game". Is there anything remotely healthy? Please? Guys?