Tera Blast isn’t a retest??? And I didn’t say it’s only that month — simply that it works out the cleanest. We had a retest in February last gen, for example
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
The reason to do a retest when there's no tournament is that a retest changes the current ladder.
Even if you ban the thing being retested in Tournament X, practice games on the ladder are going to feature it, and feature a metagame that includes it, so prep becomes more difficult.
Meanwhile a suspect test doesn't change anything unless a ban actually happens, so there's no collateral damage to running it alongside a tournament.
Even if you ban the thing being retested in Tournament X, practice games on the ladder are going to feature it, and feature a metagame that includes it, so prep becomes more difficult.
Meanwhile a suspect test doesn't change anything unless a ban actually happens, so there's no collateral damage to running it alongside a tournament.
I have to 2nd this sentiment. If you really dont wanna have Palafin unbanned then go out and ladder for it. Don't go all "it is gonna get unbanned anyway" or "this meta is cooked", it is gonna turn into a self fulfilling prophecy. I do not say this with any malice to any of you, I completely understand you guys plight but reality is what it is. The Kyurem suspect should have shown you that your one vote absolutely matters. There were also a couple of suspect regulars or good players that wanted Kyurem banned but didnt get reqs for various reasons, their vote would have absolutely mattered and could have made this meta a better place.
As for Palafin himself I am kinda indifferent. In a meta as offensive as this, I feel like Palafin can be "okay" since one of his big weaknesses is finding the right turn to "waste" on since he starts off with his weak-form. In a meta where you can tun one free turn into setup opportunities that can win you games that is pretty fatal and actually a big weakness. Even things like giving them free hazards can be devestating against faster paced teams. So yeah, offense will be fine with setup dragons like Dragonite, Bolt, Moon or Kyurem, breaker like Waterpon and sun has Wake. He has priority but it really isn't anything groundbreaking and a lot of offense structures have a lot of resilient water resists anyway.
Bulky/fat teams will probably struggle really hard as anything slower can be slowly worn down with combination of Palafins powerful stat+ taunt shutting down any defensive capabilities in the long run. It is also very capable to run lure sets to make way for sweepers like grass knot to lure Dozo and make way for Gambit/Tusk for example or even some tera blast sets. Not to mention that one turn wasted doesn't make as much of a difference against fatter teams since they don't win games immediately on the spot unless your MU is really bad. CB is also a good wallbreaker of course.
As for me I haven't played since I voted in the Gliscor suspect. I figured that working on myself and pursuing other things in life just make me a much happier person. Lifting weights, learining a language, trying other games feels much more fulfilling then malding that I lost a game because my Walking Wake missed a Draco and then tilting from 1800s to the 1500s because of that. Some people can do all that while also being competent at mons but I am simply not talented enough for that. I have to put way too many hours at this game to be at a competent level while others don't play for a long time and still destroy people left and right.
I wish you guys all the best and a soon to be Merry Christmas. Don't take anything going on these forums too personal please. Cheers.
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Think everyone should try Bulk Up Palafin with a defensive focused Tera. Could be BU3A or even BU Taunt — 3A feels stronger right now. This type of Palafin is really excelling in games I see
ANYWAY...
So, Palafin. I thought SpDef Bulk Up would be the oppressive set, and I... wasn't entirely correct. I think that set's a little too weak initially to get going and doesn't appreciate the ubiquity of Wellspring right now.
That being said, the offensive Bulk Up sets (the max Speed, generally also max Attack ones) are absolutely terrifying. Palafin's movepool is extremely expansive outside of the obligatory Jet Punch (which every Palafin should run), and it has niche tech outside of options you'd expect to see if you REALLY wanna nail stuff hard.
Just theorycrafting a general "offensive Bulk Up" set for Palafin lets you come up with some pretty crazy results:
Palafin @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers / White Herb
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Grass / Dragon / Fire / Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch / Close Combat
- Ice Punch / Encore / Taunt / Acrobatics
I would argue that this is the "standard" Offensive BU Palafin. Bulk Up and Jet Punch are obligatory, and some form of Fighting-type coverage helps (Drain Punch for longevity, CC for brute force), but what you can do from there is very interesting and drastically alters Palafin's matchup spread, making it so stuff like Ogerpon-W, Dondozo, Primarina, Raging Bolt, etc. can't quite pin this mon down as well as you'd think.
+1 Ice Punch always 2HKOes Defensive Zapdos which cannot OHKO it in retaliation, and the damage is high enough to generally leave it in Jet Punch range anyway. Raging Bolt is 2HKOed on the switch by Ice Punch too, although Palafin is typically sent packing by the threat of a TClap since Booster TClap is an easy OHKO.
Encore and Taunt are generally just incredibly disruptive moves into bulkier teams. Mons thinking they can just set up on Palafin can find themselves getting curbstomped by it instead, particularly if they're locked into a passive option by Encore.
Finch already highlighted Acrobatics as a pretty scary option, and I think on Webs teams this is far and away Palafin's most terrifying set when paired alongside White Herb CC (or even Air Balloon lmao). This is abysmal into Raging Bolt, but it has a very strong matchup into Zamazenta and especially Wellspring. If a team isn't packing a healthy DNite, Bolt, or Mola ready to have to fish for a Scald burn and lets this mon get a Bulk Up off with Webs up, they're in deep shit unless they have an emergency Tera specifically to stop this mon from sweeping. Tera Flying is a nice option on this too; if Webs are up, Palafin can OHKO Zama with Tera Flying Acro if they're evenly boosted, and stuff like Tusk will literally never click Ice Spinner into Palafin so it can pick up a BU on Tusk too.
I've even seen Tera Dragon+Outrage once or twice. I wouldn't really run this, but that Outrage hits very hard.
This set's Tera options are basically limitless. Tera Grass and Dragon improve its defensive matchup into Wellspring and generally flip its weaknesses upside-down, making it a little scarier for Bolt or Zapdos to pressure it. Tera Fire makes Cinderace, Pult, Darkrai, and Moltres incapable of getting an emergency Burn off on Palafin to cripple it. Tera Ghost is good because literally every team needs either a Ghost-type or a Tera Ghost mon and this mon can pretty severely pressure Zama with Encore+Tera Ghost to punish an ID or Press attempt and set up. And then you have other, more situational options; Tera Water is a nice little damage boost, as is Tera Fighting, while Tera Flying does what I described above. Tera Steel and Poison can handle Pecharunt, while Tera Electric gives it a Paralysis immunity and lets it completely wreck Zapdos while giving it a stopgap against Bolt (and Tera Ground could do something similar). Tera Fairy's cool as a generic defensive typing, and you could even make an argument for something dumb like Tera Ice to really give Zapdos or Bolt hell offensively. Figure something out; this mon's got serious options!
And then if you wanna run some really cursed lure options...
Palafin @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Grass / Dragon / Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch / Close Combat / Ice Punch
- Grass Knot / Boomburst
0 SpA Palafin-Hero Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 256-302 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah, so this is something Palafin can just do against Dondozo if you really want it out of the way.
Similarly, if you really don't like Alomomola (which takes much less from Grass Knot) and you still want a good hit into Dondozo's Tera, you could try this:
0 SpA Tera Normal Palafin-Hero Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 294-346 (55 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tera Normal Palafin-Hero Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 223-264 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO
This incredibly cursed lure option also has the added benefit of 2HKOing max-HP Lando and Tusk on the switch, in case they're trying to wear you down with Helmet chip. SpDef Gliscor does a lot better into this, though.
Why does bro have 106 SpA, hello?
Anyway, I think this mon's kinda cracked (Acro on Webs is definitely crazy; this mon just usurped Wellspring on Webs squads and definitely put Manaphy out of business overnight). But these are just the options I've toyed with thus far. Pretty cool that we get to take Palafin for a spin, but this thing's preeeeeeetty stupid LMAO
So, Palafin. I thought SpDef Bulk Up would be the oppressive set, and I... wasn't entirely correct. I think that set's a little too weak initially to get going and doesn't appreciate the ubiquity of Wellspring right now.
That being said, the offensive Bulk Up sets (the max Speed, generally also max Attack ones) are absolutely terrifying. Palafin's movepool is extremely expansive outside of the obligatory Jet Punch (which every Palafin should run), and it has niche tech outside of options you'd expect to see if you REALLY wanna nail stuff hard.
Just theorycrafting a general "offensive Bulk Up" set for Palafin lets you come up with some pretty crazy results:
Palafin @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers / White Herb
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Grass / Dragon / Fire / Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch / Close Combat
- Ice Punch / Encore / Taunt / Acrobatics
I would argue that this is the "standard" Offensive BU Palafin. Bulk Up and Jet Punch are obligatory, and some form of Fighting-type coverage helps (Drain Punch for longevity, CC for brute force), but what you can do from there is very interesting and drastically alters Palafin's matchup spread, making it so stuff like Ogerpon-W, Dondozo, Primarina, Raging Bolt, etc. can't quite pin this mon down as well as you'd think.
+1 Ice Punch always 2HKOes Defensive Zapdos which cannot OHKO it in retaliation, and the damage is high enough to generally leave it in Jet Punch range anyway. Raging Bolt is 2HKOed on the switch by Ice Punch too, although Palafin is typically sent packing by the threat of a TClap since Booster TClap is an easy OHKO.
Encore and Taunt are generally just incredibly disruptive moves into bulkier teams. Mons thinking they can just set up on Palafin can find themselves getting curbstomped by it instead, particularly if they're locked into a passive option by Encore.
Finch already highlighted Acrobatics as a pretty scary option, and I think on Webs teams this is far and away Palafin's most terrifying set when paired alongside White Herb CC (or even Air Balloon lmao). This is abysmal into Raging Bolt, but it has a very strong matchup into Zamazenta and especially Wellspring. If a team isn't packing a healthy DNite, Bolt, or Mola ready to have to fish for a Scald burn and lets this mon get a Bulk Up off with Webs up, they're in deep shit unless they have an emergency Tera specifically to stop this mon from sweeping. Tera Flying is a nice option on this too; if Webs are up, Palafin can OHKO Zama with Tera Flying Acro if they're evenly boosted, and stuff like Tusk will literally never click Ice Spinner into Palafin so it can pick up a BU on Tusk too.
I've even seen Tera Dragon+Outrage once or twice. I wouldn't really run this, but that Outrage hits very hard.
This set's Tera options are basically limitless. Tera Grass and Dragon improve its defensive matchup into Wellspring and generally flip its weaknesses upside-down, making it a little scarier for Bolt or Zapdos to pressure it. Tera Fire makes Cinderace, Pult, Darkrai, and Moltres incapable of getting an emergency Burn off on Palafin to cripple it. Tera Ghost is good because literally every team needs either a Ghost-type or a Tera Ghost mon and this mon can pretty severely pressure Zama with Encore+Tera Ghost to punish an ID or Press attempt and set up. And then you have other, more situational options; Tera Water is a nice little damage boost, as is Tera Fighting, while Tera Flying does what I described above. Tera Steel and Poison can handle Pecharunt, while Tera Electric gives it a Paralysis immunity and lets it completely wreck Zapdos while giving it a stopgap against Bolt (and Tera Ground could do something similar). Tera Fairy's cool as a generic defensive typing, and you could even make an argument for something dumb like Tera Ice to really give Zapdos or Bolt hell offensively. Figure something out; this mon's got serious options!
And then if you wanna run some really cursed lure options...
Palafin @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Grass / Dragon / Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch / Close Combat / Ice Punch
- Grass Knot / Boomburst
0 SpA Palafin-Hero Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 256-302 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah, so this is something Palafin can just do against Dondozo if you really want it out of the way.
Similarly, if you really don't like Alomomola (which takes much less from Grass Knot) and you still want a good hit into Dondozo's Tera, you could try this:
0 SpA Tera Normal Palafin-Hero Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 294-346 (55 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tera Normal Palafin-Hero Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 223-264 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO
This incredibly cursed lure option also has the added benefit of 2HKOing max-HP Lando and Tusk on the switch, in case they're trying to wear you down with Helmet chip. SpDef Gliscor does a lot better into this, though.
Why does bro have 106 SpA, hello?
Anyway, I think this mon's kinda cracked (Acro on Webs is definitely crazy; this mon just usurped Wellspring on Webs squads and definitely put Manaphy out of business overnight). But these are just the options I've toyed with thus far. Pretty cool that we get to take Palafin for a spin, but this thing's preeeeeeetty stupid LMAO
My post came from my experience of attempting reqs for the first time and then laddering. So quick to discredit.
Okay wtf don't say this shit cmon. We're better than this.
Palafin WILL be broken. Bulk Up Taunt is still insane as ever (2KOing bold Gholdengo at +2 with Jet Punch), with the choice of Leftovers, Boots (often with Encore), and Cloak to invalidate Tera Water Garganacl.
Banded in Rain uses the Gouging method and 2KOs Dondozo with a resisted move.
"Oh Raging Bolt checks it"
>252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raging Bolt: 203-239 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
"Oh Rillaboom checks it"
>252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 204-241 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
"Oh Ogerpon-"
>252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 182-215 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The CB set cannot be switched into while the BU set is a terrifying sweeper (think better Okidogi.)
Having the ability to hit like a Banded Gouging Fire while also having insanely good sweeper sets, and simultaneously having no switch-ins and REQUIRING a switch-in depending on the set is uhhhh
Ban Palafin lmao
unserious post, 'so quick to discredit' ??? u were the one that said u stopped playing ladder..
Also much better arguments against palafin than calcs with no context
me when i try to switch in my counter on the BU set but it's CB and it just dies
also my response to ruft was me saying "aight im done" AFTER playing on ladder bc ladder is ass dogshit rn
Can you post how much hp loss palafin has when using wave crash too tho?
Not saying you're right or wrong but its important to note in these calcs
As far as Palafin experimentation, has anyone found success with an item besides the standard Band/Leftovers or rare HDB? I'd be curious if it could make something like Expert Belt work given it has okay coverage into the less-paper things on the viability rankings with Water/Fighting staples, maybe it could afford the power drop for move flexibility when utilizing things like Grass Knot into Fat Waters. Maybe Mystic Water on Rain to just go whole-hog on Wave Crash and Jet Punch neutrally?
that's fair tbh
however, if your BU palafin check is taking 70% from CB wave crash, it's uh
(19.7 - 23.3% recoil damage) into rilla
(19.6 - 23.1% recoil damage) into bolt
lmao
covert cloak definitely, it beats garg
>Doesn't want Hellspawn
>Suggests Annihilape in a Tera meta
I won't say Palafin is balanced this early but I trust the Angry Ape even less right now.
2-0 against Palafin, this game using Palafin himself on a webs team in place of a Wellspring. Feels a bit awkward because you need to swap it out and webs is ho, but with Araquanid, balloon Gholdengo and Zamazenta it seems doable. Idk I made this team but it doesn't look very good. What would you say are the best Palafin partners in Webs?
this pokemon shit get serious be ready to die behind it
anyway...
yeah, this is what does it for me. as funny as it would be to unban this thing...fuck no LMAO
"It's over, Finch. We have you cornered."
"Never. It's not Palafover until it's Palafover."
"You'll regret this."
...
*dramatic pause*
...
*credits roll*
(season 3, episode 19)
initial thoughts on palafin:
Never been more disappointed in a banded mon, such a monstrous attack stat just to hate being locked into any move
in my opinion, from the little i played palafin is kinda ass??Like it sounds insane to say and its more than likely that i havent ran into it enough nor have an actual team to use it with but it feels like it has some variation of 4 moveslot syndrome, assuming youre running a bulk up set:
ice punch is a good for dnite, glis, lando, bolt(assuming its coming in), sinistcha probably moon too, drain punch is good for healing but also the immediate power of cc REALLY works wonders especially since you dont have a strong move to hit waterpon, and as for your main water type move?In all honesty you have a lot of options, jet punch is great for a priority move but lacks power, wave crash does recoil which you might not be able to afford in longer games assuming you dont have a wishpasser or leftovers or something, i havent seen anyone use liquidation though so maybe we’ll see those
palafin feels Weird right now, its more than likely because i just havent played enough games with it, and as stated i dont have a good team for it, but it just feels underwhelming, im sure in a couple days if i find a good team i’ll change opinions entirely but right now?its eh, dont feel a certain way on it staying or leaving the tier again
Never been more disappointed in a banded mon, such a monstrous attack stat just to hate being locked into any move
in my opinion, from the little i played palafin is kinda ass??Like it sounds insane to say and its more than likely that i havent ran into it enough nor have an actual team to use it with but it feels like it has some variation of 4 moveslot syndrome, assuming youre running a bulk up set:
ice punch is a good for dnite, glis, lando, bolt(assuming its coming in), sinistcha probably moon too, drain punch is good for healing but also the immediate power of cc REALLY works wonders especially since you dont have a strong move to hit waterpon, and as for your main water type move?In all honesty you have a lot of options, jet punch is great for a priority move but lacks power, wave crash does recoil which you might not be able to afford in longer games assuming you dont have a wishpasser or leftovers or something, i havent seen anyone use liquidation though so maybe we’ll see those
palafin feels Weird right now, its more than likely because i just havent played enough games with it, and as stated i dont have a good team for it, but it just feels underwhelming, im sure in a couple days if i find a good team i’ll change opinions entirely but right now?its eh, dont feel a certain way on it staying or leaving the tier again
"Never been more disappointed in a banded mon, such a monstrous attack stat just to hate being locked into any move"
That is every banded mon
That is every banded mon
someone plz drop the palfin team (i'm too lazy to build one)
banded palafin is literally the Walking Wake Effect or alternatively the Barraskewda theorem. absolutely insane wall breaking power but you lock into water move in front of Wellspring and you feel like absolute shit. 50/50 every turn whether you click water move or predict Ogerpon. it's very much a noobtrap imo, non-choice sets are so much better.
After running into Palafin, I can conclude that it's... pretty mid.
Good stats, and theoretical sets of it are strong, but the meta is much more punishing with that 1 wasted turn of it. That alone is enough.
Good stats, and theoretical sets of it are strong, but the meta is much more punishing with that 1 wasted turn of it. That alone is enough.
yeah i mentioned this in natdex discussion when they were discussing a palafin retest post-tera but it's applicable here too: banded palafin isn't the thing breaking the mon, and this remains true whether or not you consider palafin broken. it has to commit way too hard when it clicks a move so you have to play perfectly every turn or you just thud into waterpon, and even after you get a kill that's just free entry to waterpon anyway. this also applies to raging bolt and rillaboom to a lesser extent, but mostly waterpon. anyway, my point is, band palafin is a nuke, but it's a nuke that requires some actual brainpower and positioning and support to get the kind of value out of that other broken choice breakers historically got by themselves. i think the best application for band besides "extremely telegraphed rain breaker" is as a lure with some sort of tera blast, but even then i still think bulk up is just generally a way better option
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my summarized thoughts
palafin is broken because it's an unwallable breaker that does things into every style, as well as having stupid ass BU sets
forcing every bulky team to run dondozo or mola is insanely limiting
palafin is insanely limiting
we don't need MORE insanely limiting breakers
at least in my opinion
palafin is broken because it's an unwallable breaker that does things into every style, as well as having stupid ass BU sets
forcing every bulky team to run dondozo or mola is insanely limiting
palafin is insanely limiting
we don't need MORE insanely limiting breakers
at least in my opinion