Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Considering how awful is the current metagame, people should ask for BANNING mons instead of unbanning others, which will create even more problems. Using that 50% +1 policy is controversial considering the previous suspects results that were aberrants, its quite a random and "unprobable" situation yes, but having 2 unhealthy mons that have avoided ban due to a lil % < 60% and then purposing an unban with >50% +1 is a bit controversial, even if its an unprobable situation. I can completely understand how angry are some people rn, its fair.

Edit : After having playing against it and testing it several times myself, I'll be voting Ban without hesitation

One of the biggest complaints, all generation long, has been the wide range of offensive threats that makes defensive team building a challenge - Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kyurem, Gholdengo, and Zamazenta all have very different counterplay, with nothing reliably covering three of the four, never mind covering all of them. Stall can make it work, but it takes all six mons to do it reliably, so even fat balance can struggle to have a defensive answer to everything. At the other extreme, HO also makes it work by answering everything offensively instead, happily trading one mon to weaken a challenging opponent into range for another to beat.

It's everything in between, ranging from regular offense to the fattest of balance, that can't cover it all with a three or four mon backbone. There's just too much variety in attackers.

A centralizing mon or two can actually help with this problem. Dropping Zamazenta offered a blanket check to physical attackers, being able to 1v1 everything except a handful of specific Tera Ghost mons; Volcarona, while it was in the tier, offered a blanket check to many special attackers, though Volcarona itself was enough of a problem to answer that it ended up getting banned.

Palafin has the potential to blanket check fast, frail mons by using its powerful priority and good bulk. Iron Valiant challenges? Chip it down and Jet Punch can do the last 40% even without offensive investment. Kyurem running over your team? Bulky Drain Punch does about 50%, and the set can take a Choice Specs Freeze Dry if healthy. Kingambit being scary? Encore sets can lock into Sucker Punch and then click Jet Punch, or for banded sets, Tera Fighting survives a +2 5 Fallen Sucker and is favorable to kill with Wave Crash. Ogerpon a problem? Run Close Combat over Drain Punch and a neutral Tera (again, probably Fighting for overlap with other answers) and you can take a +0 Power Whip or Play Rough.

All of these techs are viable, all of them have an opportunity cost that weakens Palafin offensively so it isn't overbearing, and all of them can check multiple threats. Palafin returning would benefit Sinistcha as well, which also covers a good range of offensive mons without being a problem itself, which might further help in adding a little centralization to the tier.

Lastly, if Palafin's reintroduction pushes a few mons out of OU by reducing their viability, that's probably a good thing - reducing the number of offensive threats means it's easier to build defensive cores, and Palafin has enough answers of its own, that are good mons anyway, that it doesn't apply too much building pressure itself.
 
It's not as though people haven't been doing this? However, community sentiment hadn't reached enough to properly ban Kyurem or Gliscor from the tier, and to be frank I simply do not think the support is there for other things in the tier like Kingambit, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Roaring Moon, Gholdengo, Raging Bolt, or Zamazenta to be banned via suspect at this time. The only thing that could maybe, and I mean maybe, garner enough community support at this time to be banned at all, is Tera Blast, in my opinion. However, this is just a test to drop a mon that people bring up a lot as being potentially balanced, and if it turns out to be broken, maybe people won't talk about it anymore. That's all there is to it.
Wtf bro are u talking about "sentiment" for kyurem and gliscor, u main stall and u voted DNB on both Kyurem and Gliscor, why are you saying that lol ? Never Palafin will be balanced enough, as it was said before, it's just that people are overprepped for it right now because no one wants to be defeated. But it will not be the case all the days, I don't think playing slowbro sinistcha will deal with current SVOU.

This being said, merry christmas to you and to yall, even if we totally disagree on this mon
 
Again, what I'm failing to see a lot of defenders say is why releasing Palafin is actually a benefit to the tier. What does Palafin actually accomplish for the meta
Nothing should be, and unless you count DPP Machamp, afaik was, tested on whether or not it benefits the tier. Is it broken/stupid uncompetitive like evasion or iron bundle's overclocked speedy gonzales ass 2-slot perfect coverage? Ban. If not, but still quite concerning, like Baxcalibur? Suspect.
They both benefited the tier by providing amazing offensive options. Too amazing, even, as enough people thought.
I think Palafin, though quite strong, is just another brick in the wall when it comes to SV OU, among the likes of Roaring Moon and Raging Bolt when it comes to offensive power, something that, despite having no shortage of, isn't alone indicative of being a problem.

Edit:
Screenshot_20241225_120213_Chrome.jpg

Merry Christmas, Finch
 
Wtf bro are u talking about "sentiment" for kyurem and gliscor, u main stall and u voted DNB on both Kyurem and Gliscor, why are you saying that lol ? Never Palafin will be balanced enough, as it was said before, it's just that people are overprepped for it right now because no one wants to be defeated. But it will not be the case all the days, I don't think playing slowbro sinistcha will deal with current SVOU.

This being said, merry christmas to you and to yall, even if we totally disagree on this mon

I am in the Ban side for Palafin, but I disagree with the stance that it can never be Balanced enough. Despite the Stats, the movepool and the typing, Palafin can have enough counterplay, on any style. The main problem is that at the same time we have to prepare for 32324342 other offensive threats. If we Ban Waterpon, Raging Bolt and maybe Kyurem, despite all of them being (unreliable) checks to Palafin, preparing for it would become way easier, since we won,t have to spend resources for other big threats.
Suspect is however based on current Meta, not an hypotethical one, therefore right now Palafin (in my opinion) has to be banned. Storm Zone (with whose opinions I tend to hard disagree most of the time) has written in the Suspect Qualified thread a good post regarding why Palafin is making current metagame worse, I recommend reading it.
 
Merry Christmas from your friendly resident lurker who has played a total of 5 SV OU games. Even though this thread is a clown fiesta a majority of the time and the last 2-3 pages were nonsense, we are all still people behind our screens that are hopefully enjoying their day with their families and loved ones.

Also free Palafin bro is funny.
 
Palafin has the potential to blanket check fast, frail mons by using its powerful priority
I never really understood this stance as it implies we currently don’t have this in the tier. So what happened to Dragonite, or Kingambit, or Raging Bolt, or Rillaboom? Heck throw in Cinderace, Meowscarada, Samurott-H, and even shit like Scizor! My point being OU has a plethora of strong priority users that can fit on all but stall so why do we need Palafin? It’s just adding more fuel to the fire, and it’s biggest reasoning that people come up with for being good for the tier already exists in the tier. So what am I missing?
 
They both benefited the tier by providing amazing offensive options. Too amazing, even, as enough people thought.
I think Palafin, though quite strong, is just another brick in the wall when it comes to SV OU, among the likes of Roaring Moon and Raging Bolt when it comes to offensive power, something that, despite having no shortage of, isn't alone indicative of being a problem.

Right so this doesn't really answer my (actually Srn's suspect) question

What does palafin actually positively bring to the meta that isn't just "even better bigger stronger button clicker/setup sweep" because yet another incredibly polarizing scary threat is not only not what OU needs, it exasperates the current metas problems.
 
Right so this doesn't really answer my (actually Srn's suspect) question

What does palafin actually positively bring to the meta that isn't just "even better bigger stronger button clicker/setup sweep" because yet another incredibly polarizing scary threat is not only not what OU needs, it exasperates the current metas problems.
Strong priority for opposing HO + strong anti-tera capabilities vs a good number of sweepers like Tera Flying / Ground Moon, Fairy Raging Bolt, Tera Fire / Ground Kyurem, poison Apple, etc.
 
Dragonite: People do use Dragonite, access to Extreme Speed is a primary reason it's used in OU. However, non-STAB Extreme Speed is a fair bit weaker than Palafin's Jet Punch:

252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 98-116 (28.7 - 34%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO
8 Atk Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 99-117 (29 - 34.3%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO

Fully invested ESpeed versus almost-uninvested Jet Punch, and Jet Punch is still a hair stronger. Water is also a better attacking type than Normal; you don't get blocked by Tera Ghost, and you hit Kingambit neutrally instead of resisted.

Kingambit: Kingambit is one of the mons that people want priority to beat, and it resists its own priority move besides.

Raging Bolt: Again, people do use Raging Bolt for its priority, though it's less essential to the mon than Dragonite's ES. Even without the Proto boost, it's significantly stronger than Jet Punch, so yes, absolutely, this is a direct competitor to the role.

Rillaboom: It's falling out of style because Grass is such a flawed attacking type, mostly.

252+ Atk Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in Grassy Terrain: 127-150 (37.2 - 43.9%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

That's a bit stronger than even 252 Jet Punch, but Grass being resisted weakens it a lot, such as Kingambit. Also, Rillaboom doesn't offer enough outside of priority, while Palafin offers either a strong wincon with Bulk Up, or a strong breaker with Choice Band.

Scizor: I genuinely think Scizor has enough good qualities to be used more than it does, but Bullet Punch is both a bit weaker than Jet Punch (due to Palafin's superior Attack stat) and a much worse attacking type that, again, Kingambit resists.

Cinderace, Meowscarada, and Samurott-H don't have priority, and so aren't direct competitors.

Hitting Kingambit neutrally is a big, important part of Palafin's value over the other options. Being able to serve in the role of "Can stop Sucker Punch sweeps" is important for team building.
 
Palafin brings a TON to the tier. Revenge kills Iron Moth, disrupts Kingambit Sucker Punch shenanigans with Jet Punch + Encore, and is able to stop booster spam by taking out Ground Roaring Moon, chipped Valiant, and Boulder. It also makes Rain a lot better.

Does that mean it should be OU? No, not necessarily. Just boils down to if there is enough counterplay to it or not. If it is broken, it should stay banned.
 
Cinderace, Meowscarada, and Samurott-H don't have priority, and so aren't direct competitors.
Just being nit picky, but is Sucker Punch not considered priority, or we saying because it’s not common it doesn’t count? Also Samurott-H does have both Aqua Jet and Sucker Punch so I don’t know where this is coming from unless you mean people don’t generally use these mons for their priority.
 
No, that's not being nit picky, that's on me for a mix of poor phrasing and not properly explaining, an entirely valid callout.

Samurott-H runs Sucker Punch reasonably often on the lead set, but as a suicide lead, it's not going to be around later in the game to revenge things. Meowscarada simply doesn't run the move, full stop; it has mild 4MSS syndrome already. I've never seen Sucker Punch off a Cinderace, even though it's slashed as a move; that could be sample size, but my existing belief is that it's simply a very rare move.

In any case, none of them are going to be brought for their priority moves.
 
Merry wishmas to everyone, I hope you spent your likes on good stuff


:cobalion:
Hazard santa returns (Cobalion) @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 124 HP / 132 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Volt Switch
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
- Taunt

This time, we shall use a set that takes advantage of Justified a bit, using it to increase the power of close combat, this is because this set can’t afford iron press and this acts as a good knock absorber
 
Me: enjoys Christmas and Hanukkah with family

The fuckin nolife OU discussion thread: yes I will post 300 things for raine to read uwu
well you don't have to read them, some people here post arguments without even reading the posts they're replying to. hell, some people don't even read their own posts before clicking the post button. you think "honestly i would use duraludon over it" or "ou monarchy" or "gen 9 has too much hazard control" would have happened if the posters had realized how ridiculous they sounded?
 
well you don't have to read them, some people here post arguments without even reading the posts they're replying to. hell, some people don't even read their own posts before clicking the post button. you think "honestly i would use duraludon over it" or "ou monarchy" or "gen 9 has too much hazard control" would have happened if the posters had realized how ridiculous they sounded?
I fw your actual comment but seeing daddybuzzwole say that is like seeing BKC call somebody pretentious
 
Gen 9 has too much hazard control. Great Tusk is not the only Pokémon that can abuse R*pid Sp*n and take over a game in a single turn and people are really underselling how frustrating it is to fight back against spinners. Pecha and FRAUDcha are at most somewhat reliable, with basically every spinner having Ice and Dark coverage there's basically no way to reliably spinblock in the long run. "Just use priority bro" if that fixed the issue, I would not be complaining. And that's not even mentioning the Roosters, which, are as annoying as ever to deal with, but still balanced, but alas, they too add to the oversaturation of hazard control in this generation.
 
oh no, i'm a different and more exciting category of problem. i proofread all my posts several times over to ensure they sound as ridiculous as possible
This is significantly funnier

Gen 9 has too much hazard control. Great Tusk is not the only Pokémon that can abuse R*pid Sp*n and take over a game in a single turn and people are really underselling how frustrating it is to fight back against spinners. Pecha and FRAUDcha are at most somewhat reliable, with basically every spinner having Ice and Dark coverage there's basically no way to reliably spinblock in the long run. "Just use priority bro" if that fixed the issue, I would not be complaining. And that's not even mentioning the Roosters, which, are as annoying as ever to deal with, but still balanced, but alas, they too add to the oversaturation of hazard control in this generation.
My autistic, confused ass realizing seraphyde was a complete larper and baiter for the first time in my life genuinely changed me as a person. I saw God. Jesus was there. He held my hand and we danced in the sunlight basking in glory told only in mythical tales
 
Gen 9 has too much hazard control. Great Tusk is not the only Pokémon that can abuse R*pid Sp*n and take over a game in a single turn and people are really underselling how frustrating it is to fight back against spinners. Pecha and FRAUDcha are at most somewhat reliable, with basically every spinner having Ice and Dark coverage there's basically no way to reliably spinblock in the long run. "Just use priority bro" if that fixed the issue, I would not be complaining. And that's not even mentioning the Roosters, which, are as annoying as ever to deal with, but still balanced, but alas, they too add to the oversaturation of hazard control in this generation.
hey uhh you could also use scarfers :)
 
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