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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
great tusk had to take over 80% just to keep hazards off and would have died to any good move and you're mad about that ?
Oh is the OP deleted
I nuked it because I felt like it was a useless post
My point is that it's an example of how Great Tusk can take over a game after a single Rapid Spin, if my opponent wasn't dumb enough to be running fucking Earth Power and no attack investment then I would have been screwed
I don't care that Great Tusk gets nuked, I care that it was able to spin in the first place, if Great Tusk merely gets to spin then it won the matchup in my eyes
everyone has told you already but complaining about rapid spin is crazy. do you just want to have unpunished hazards or something? especially in this gen where applying hazards and keeping them on field has been the easiest since gen 4
from what i've gleaned of him, seraphyde appears to believe that non-offensive playstyles should be unviable and that the best way to achieve that is unmitigated hazard dominance. this of course ignores the fact that one of the core requirements of stall is...
I don't care about hazard removal that much, because you don't see me complaining about Defog despite how relatively easy it is to Defog. It's the speed boost that pisses me off because 1. Great Tusk is nearly impossible to OKO without something named Iron Valiant 2. Great Tusk can easily defeat offensive spinblockers with its coverage, bulk, and power and 3. A Speed boosted Great Tusk is nearly impossible to out-offense without your own speed boost
If you are a balance or stall player, Rapid Spin will not be as big of a big problem for you, but for offense (once their "defensive core" is down) and hyper offense, Rapid Spin is extremely annoying, you'll usually have methods to punish it, but even then, unless your countermeasure is specifically named Air Balloon Tera Fairy Gholdengo, it's not guaranteed to work because Great Tusk is just THAT consistent at spinning or paving the way to spin.
Why don't we ask DaddyBuzzwole to use his crystal ball to look into the timelines where 1. Rapid Spin was never changed to give a speed boost and 2. Great Tusk never came into existence and 3. Great Tusk and Iron Treads never came into existence (because he’s gonna day for 2 that Iron Treads just took Great Tusk’s place)
a +1 255+ tusk only reaches 450, which is absolutely not unmanageable. maybe +2 gets harder, but greedy rapid spin usage can be punished pretty easily (and if you let it get free rapid spins thats usually from playing badly). Even at +1 it can get scared by zama, landy, moltres because it often comes out of it heavily chipped (see the 80% loss from your glimm) and have to either just die then and there or retreat which gives you momentum.
Idk, theres plenty of ways to approach even a boosted tusk, and it cant coverage away its checks and counters
Espathra was UU
Usage cutoff is so easy to reach for even top rated mons I sometimes wonder if the cutoff needs looked at.
I remember we increased it back in SWSH's dexit but I don't remember ever decreasing it as new mons came in. Could also be a byproduct of variety since there's just many mons that comfortably sit in the same usage and thus few particular ones are actually 'overly used'.
aight bet
- basically nothing changes prior to this gen—the change happened in gen 8, and that gen's hazard removal consisted almost entirely of defog. this gen, not much changes besides tusk and treads using booster speed a little bit more often. the hazard game is virtually unaffected because no one was actually running rapid spin for the speed boost
- with the best and most consistent hazard removal gone, the meta starts out even more heavily destabilized than it already did. iron treads fills some of the hazard-removal ecological niche, but not nearly enough. gholdengo is on the second tiering radar and narrowly avoids a ban, but does get banned on the third radar, leading to corviknight becoming a meta staple due to being the only viable defogger. electric-types are way better at first—iron hands is ou for a good while pre-home due to filling some of tusk's bulky-fighting niche, and magnezone briefly becomes an actual thing on hazard stack due to trapping corv, though ultimately both of these fall off when lando shows back up. without tusk to check it, kingambit is suspected months sooner and ends up being overwhelmingly banned. a lot more discussion is had about hisuian samurott when home drops, but ultimately nothing comes of it besides hamurott being a consistent option on tiering surveys. lando-t ends up filling a decent chunk of the vacuum that tusk left behind in non-hazard-related places. surprisingly, gliscor actually avoids a ban in dlc1 thanks to gholdengo not existing and corviknight being everywhere. overall, hazards end up dominating the sv landscape a lot less in this timeline, but only because of the gholdengo ban and the existence of iron treads. there's a sub-iteration of this timeline where the ghold ban doesn't go through and it's not pretty
- most non-hazard things go similarly to the previous timeline, but the hazard meta is even worse than before. gholdengo is banned on the second radar, but hazards dominate the scene anyway. corviknight is consistently top 2 in usage for the whole generation and bootspam is by far the most common archetype, but it isn't enough. spikes appear on several tiering surveys and hover around 3.0-3.2 but never gain enough support for a suspect. talk of suspecting ting-lu takes place but never goes beyond just talk. hamurott is suspected post-home but avoids a ban, causing controversy for the rest of the gen. gliscor's and firepon's bans swap places—gliscor is quickbanned early in dlc1 (and doesn't come back), while firepon is banned later via suspect. excadrill becomes an ou staple when it drops in dlc2, which mitigates the hazard issue somewhat, but it falls drastically short of filling the void left behind by the lack of tusk and treads. kyurem is never suspected. archaludon's suspect takes place significantly later because rain teams struggle to get a foothold without treads for hazard removal and without tusk's presence giving pelipper an easy entry point against a third of all teams. gouging fire is only suspected once (the second time) and banned by a much less hilarious margin. the likeshop results in a suspect of spikes that ends in very narrow failure. in short, things are very very bad. but apparently tiktok shut down in mid-2023 in this timeline so at least we have that going for us
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Random question for us, but do we think Gen 10 (haha Ben 10 joke) is going to be as bad as this one? It's the start of 2025, and this is the year that game releases by GF standards.
Second question: What do we think of the meta going into the start of 2025? I personally think its fine, but I'm not you guys
Second question: What do we think of the meta going into the start of 2025? I personally think its fine, but I'm not you guys
So, you're saying that we're not in the ideal timeline? Tell me what happens in the timeline where Great Tusk exists but not Iron Treads.
1. No idea. I don't think anyone anticipated how much of a shitshow this gen would be.
2. If Palashit stays banned, I think it might finally be stabilizing, especially if Tera Blast gets banned as well. If the Palashitters get their way, the meta might be doomed.
This might come off as a derp moment, but it finally sank in why Rapid Spin grants a +1 Speed boost after I ran a Webs team for the Palafin reqs (which I was unsuccessful). Imagine getting rid of the webs on your field, only for your spinner to still be stuck at -1. What I thought was an arbitrary buff is actually an nice QoL change to the hazard removal game. Though like the Gen 7 Burn nerf indirectly buffing Guts + Facade shenanigans, it does come with the consequence of sometimes staring down a Tusk with its Speed cranked up.
Though most of the time, Tusk is crammed with utility tools like Rocks or Knock so the things it can run over are limited. Plus, I think it deserves a speed boost for doing its job as a treat for holding the metagame together.
Though most of the time, Tusk is crammed with utility tools like Rocks or Knock so the things it can run over are limited. Plus, I think it deserves a speed boost for doing its job as a treat for holding the metagame together.
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Yes, let's talk about a future metagame that we literally know 0 about
didnt mean to aggress mb i was /lh
seraphyde moment
chat is this my writing????????? omg :3
what are u doing man
That depends. What generational gimmick do they have, if any, and does it actually have limits like taking up an item slot? If the answer to that is yes and no, gen 10 is likely screwed. If not, we'll see. GF isn't exactly known for great balance.
As for the current meta in gen 9, I'm kinda aggravated by it. Palafin is annoying in the builder unless you are going more offensive. It's not that there aren't checks to it. It's that those checks tend to become more necessary in the builder and this can overcentralize certain mons. Players can then take advantage of this in the builder for offensive teams by having Palafin's teammates beat its checks. Kyurem in particular can hit every single Palafin check with Freeze Dry. Even without that, you can do something like use a Flying type attacker Grass mons and one of the many Ground types for Bolt. Etc.
This is obviously just my opinion, but I don't find balance or other more defensive styles very fun to play in this meta. It's just too overcentralized. I also believe it's a bit too easy to take advantage of that overcentralization from an offensive perspective. Even if you aren't using a Palafin team, you can take advantage of all those Palafin teams existing.
It's also kind of annoying seeing Wellspring and Bolt (a mon I actually really like) on like every team. Wellspring was already good, but the usage rate has skyrocketed. The uptick in Wellspring is also bad for stall, which might otherwise benefit from some of Palafin's other consequences. I enjoyed it more when Grasspon and Rockpon were more justifiable. Cornerstone especially has been hit hard.
I really enjoyed the brief time we had Kyurem banned because it felt like diversity in the builder was much higher. To see another stressor in Palafin being added is going in the wrong direction. What I would like to see is a tier without Kyurem and Palafin. This would take us back to that meta I personally preferred, though I wouldn't quite stop there. Roaring Moon should go and then several other things at least deserve more consideration.
No I meant more of like, judging from this meta and previous others that you have witnessed, how do we think gen 10 is going to pan out? Prolly a bad idea to talk about the future when it didn't even happen, but like... I PERSONALLY cannot help but be concerned for the enjoyability of the game, Aerion
Yes, but, judging from this meta and previous others, we have 0 idea of what the next generational gimmick is going to be, what the particular dex-selection is going to be, what new mons are going to be like. Literally 0 info, and in this case you can't use past information to predict the future.
No, it's not a bad idea to talk about the future when it didn't happen. Theorising and guessing is fun, but only when there is something to talk about.
I quite literally never get tired of doing this. everyone spamming webs on ladder is just giving away free elo when they refuse to swap out that fucking spider turn one. I'm starting to think us Mousers are coming in hot with this one...
252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Araquanid: 270-330 (79.4 - 97%) -- approx. 2HKO
Araquanid supremacy
(Bold araquanid is underrated, people should use it more. Ask Duckular or Joltinjoe for more resources, they're the GOATs)
Also, to further this point, because I love talking about stall and the stall bible, having Hazards + Knock Off is a quintessential part of a stall team. While the stall bible says that they aren't "required", think of it as a soft requirement on every stall team that isn't trying to be special or just trying to farm ladder. Spikes and Stealth Rock are so ridiculously important for stall, and stall teams don't even need removal (see supagmoney's amazing zong stall), so if you banned Rapid Spin, I think stall would be pretty happy all things considered. It would only really remove Cyclizar as a semi-common stall option, as the main hazard removal on stall is Corviknight, Talonflame, and Weezing-Galar, all of which are far more common than Cyclizar. Plus, removalless stalls with Gliscor, Clefable, Corviknight, Hydrapple, Alomomola, and Muk are totally fine with just eating Knock Off forever.
TLDR, ban rapid spin, and stall is significantly happier because it's MUCH harder for balance/offense to remove hazards while it's not that much harder for stall to do so.
things don't change super drastically like they do in tusk's absence. the leads that treads counterleads get better, bolt gets better, rain gets worse, arch suspect happens a little later but not much, and excadrill occupies a lot of the space treads left behind. raging bolt gets a suspect in this timeline but it doesn't pan out. other tiers are affected more—uu is in turmoil for most of the gen because of the lack of treads (which was uu for quite a while) and excadrill being firmly ou, and the first miraidon suspect goes through in ubers
also, the 2024 hurricane season is significantly worse. by the end of the year south carolina is basically gone. inexplicably, florida doesn't get hit by a single one
incidentally, it's actually quite hard to find timelines where only one of tusk or treads exists without the other (or a close analogue). they're not just counterparts, they're also integral parts of the arven subplot, so you have to go through quite a few degrees of separation before you hit on a determinative set where you get one or the other without their "quaking earth titan" counterpart being an ou-relevant ground-type that fills a similar role as the main timeline's version
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I believe Finchinator's suggestion that mons being retested outside of a DLC should have a settling period where you can't get reqs is a good idea as it gives time for players to optimize to an extent the suspected mon's sets. If players had waited longer, Walking Wake may not have even needed to be suspected when it first arrived.