Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

EpicGuy321 said:
Taunt stops Roar. MolaCroak is interesting, but croak is unfortunately an old mon and thus is bad because powercreep. It’s a shame, I liked using him in Pokemon Go PvP.
Click to expand...
hmb4bq74k0da1.jpg

Dragonite would like to kindly speak to you :)
 
EpicGuy321 said:
Dragonite IS powercreep. Dragon Dance in gen 3, Espeed in gen 4, Multiscale whenever it got that, Tera in gen 9 (massive)
Click to expand...
It got Multiscale in Gen 5.

How good is Palafin? Idk how consistent it'll be since you would think there will be a ton of water absorb mons on ladder now.
BolTingBlazie said:
remember that dragonite was, in fact kinda mid until gen 4 as far as OU goes. It was stuck in BL hell until gen 4 gifting it espeed, and was even uu in gen 1
Click to expand...
Lol as far as I know in GSC it used to be very rarely used on hard stall teams with like reflect haze rest talk just to stop phys attackers. Idt it's used anymore though. Gen 3 it has a small niche over mence because it has heal bell and haze.
DaddyBuzzwole said:
not every old mon is "bad because powercreep". we have 7 mons in ou that are at least as old as toxicroak (:clefable::zapdos::moltres::dragonite::deoxys-speed::gliscor::darkrai:), several of which have been kicking around ou for a decade or more, and some of which have improved from the powercreep. if we widen the spectrum out to "decent or better in ou", which i would consider b- or above on the vr, we also get 16 more (:venusaur::ninetales::scizor::skarmory::blissey::tyranitar::blaziken::pelipper::torkoal::latias::latios::garchomp::weavile::rotom-wash::heatran::manaphy:) from gen 4 or before. so we can't just automatically assume everything old is bad because of power creep
Click to expand...
Bro, Darkrai doesn't count lmao.
 
Last edited:
EpicGuy321 said:
Taunt stops Roar. MolaCroak is interesting, but croak is unfortunately an old mon and thus is bad because powercreep. It’s a shame, I liked using him in Pokemon Go PvP.
Click to expand...
not every old mon is "bad because powercreep". we have 7 mons in ou that are at least as old as toxicroak (:clefable::zapdos::moltres::dragonite::deoxys-speed::gliscor::darkrai:), several of which have been kicking around ou for a decade or more, and some of which have improved from the powercreep. if your argument is "but since they were improved by the powercreep that proves my point" (???), then keep in mind that some of these mons have instead suffered drastically from the powercreep—zapdos lost defog this gen, and darkrai and deo-s suffered so much that they're not even ubers anymore—but that doesn't make them bad

if we widen the spectrum out to "decent or better in ou", which i would consider b- or above on the vr, we also get 16 more (:venusaur::ninetales::scizor::skarmory::blissey::tyranitar::blaziken::pelipper::torkoal::latias::latios::garchomp::weavile::rotom-wash::heatran::manaphy:) from gen 4 or before. so we can't just automatically assume everything old is bad because of powercreep
 
Last edited:
EpicGuy321 said:
Using both is asking to get owned by stupid broken Woger.

—

I don’t think Palafin is broken, but it sure as heck isn’t necessary. To me, this mon seems like evil Scizor who resists Fire and has a +1 omniboost
Click to expand...
Yeah, it is probably not necessary and maybe not the healthiest thing in the world, but there are definitely more unhealthy things in the tier I think personally in comparison
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
not every old mon is "bad because powercreep". we have 7 mons in ou that are at least as old as toxicroak (:clefable::zapdos::moltres::dragonite::deoxys-speed::gliscor::darkrai:), several of which have been kicking around ou for a decade or more, and some of which have improved from the powercreep. if your argument is "but since they were improved by the powercreep that proves my point" (???), then keep in mind that some of these mons have instead suffered drastically from the powercreep—zapdos lost defog this gen, and darkrai and deo-s suffered so much that they're not even ubers anymore—but that doesn't make them bad

if we widen the spectrum out to "decent or better in ou", which i would consider b- or above on the vr, we also get 16 more (:venusaur::ninetales::scizor::skarmory::blissey::tyranitar::blaziken::pelipper::torkoal::latias::latios::garchomp::weavile::rotom-wash::heatran::manaphy:) from gen 4 or before. so we can't just automatically assume everything old is bad because of powercreep
Click to expand...
zapdos and moltres may have lost defog, but they gained boots. clef became a fairy, gliscor got tera (avoiding se hits is huge for a mon that heals off neutrals), deo-s and darkrai were ubers until this gen which says something. toxicroak didn’t really gain anything significant as far as I know and wasn’t ou caliber to begin with
 
EpicGuy321 said:
zapdos and moltres may have lost defog, but they gained boots. clef became a fairy, gliscor got tera (avoiding se hits is huge for a mon that heals off neutrals), deo-s and darkrai were ubers until this gen which says something. toxicroak didn’t really gain anything significant as far as I know and wasn’t ou caliber to begin with
Click to expand...
toxicroak was ou in gen 5, although its not good in the tier nowadays
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
not every old mon is "bad because powercreep". we have 7 mons in ou that are at least as old as toxicroak (:clefable::zapdos::moltres::dragonite::deoxys-speed::gliscor::darkrai:), several of which have been kicking around ou for a decade or more, and some of which have improved from the powercreep. if your argument is "but since they were improved by the powercreep that proves my point" (???), then keep in mind that some of these mons have instead suffered drastically from the powercreep—zapdos lost defog this gen, and darkrai and deo-s suffered so much that they're not even ubers anymore—but that doesn't make them bad

if we widen the spectrum out to "decent or better in ou", which i would consider b- or above on the vr, we also get 16 more (:venusaur::ninetales::scizor::skarmory::blissey::tyranitar::blaziken::pelipper::torkoal::latias::latios::garchomp::weavile::rotom-wash::heatran::manaphy:) from gen 4 or before. so we can't just automatically assume everything old is bad because of powercreep
Click to expand...
Buzzwole is 100000% correct. Most "powercrept" mons in SS/SM OU were just nerfed. Heatran, Torn-T, Pex, Slowbro, Ttar, and more. Anyways, happy new year, guys! :3
 
soupeater said:
Ttar is OU in SwSh despite losing knock off that gen though, right?
Click to expand...
Lost pursuit; it was just a matter of time when it fell at the 8 fucking ground types didn't help (similar to heatran).

A lot of people confuse powercreep with unfriendly metagame and nerfs. Heatran hates the 8 fucking grounds and hates losing Toxic. Ttar hates the grounds and losing suit. Torn lost defog and Toxic.

The MAJOR case of true powercreep rn is garchomp. Even then it's only UUBL with a strong niche in OU. In fact, I'd say it's underrated rn.
 
montegom said:
I don't know how good is to accept that the metagame will be less healthy due to the presence of :Palafin-Hero:. I am not going to pursue reqs, I have no time during this period of the year, but I would not be sure of what to vote. On the one hand, I consider that :Palafin-Hero: has more options that the ones that we are used to see (at least in the low-middle ladder where I habit xD) and it is limiting the team-building part of the game. Last team I encountered was using SpA Palafin with Boomburst and literally destroyed me... On the other hand I agree that the metagame could adapt to its presence and that we have options to stop it like :Ogerpon-Wellspring:, Water Absorb :Clodsire: ... However I agree that this same problem ocurred with :Kyurem: and :Gliscor: during their resepctive suspects tests and know nobody is complaining about them (maybe because :Gliscor: is having troubles to find a place in a crowded :Palafin-Hero: metagame).
Click to expand...
Oh, I didn't say I wasn't voting Ban. I don't want Palafin in the tier or anything, as of now. I just don't like it when narratives about how oppressive it'll be are pushed super hard.
 
Last edited:
DaddyBuzzwole said:
so, folks, what's the thing you most want to see happen in ou this year? i'm hoping we can finally band together to fix this mess and destroy kingambit once and for all
Click to expand...
I hope that policy stops being so nebulous and, as Jimmer Collins said, Kafkaesque, and we realize that perhaps the broken signature ability is worth banning over the mon, keyword being Signature. I see no reason beyond current policy, whatever that's written as, if it's written, for something like Galarian Darmanitan (I had no other ideas off the top of my head that weren't either obscenely broken outside their signature, or only had that ability) to be shackled down because it could run a scarf&band simultaneously. Then again, if it turns out to be too much without it, then yeah I'll take the L.

Either that, or Likeshop 2.0 brings back Terapagos by banning only its Stellar Form.
 
KamenOH said:
I hope that policy stops being so nebulous and, as Jimmer Collins said, Kafkaesque, and we realize that perhaps the broken signature ability is worth banning over the mon, keyword being Signature. I see no reason beyond current policy, whatever that's written as, if it's written, for something like Galarian Darmanitan (I had no other ideas off the top of my head that weren't either obscenely broken outside their signature, or only had that ability) to be shackled down because it could run a scarf&band simultaneously. Then again, if it turns out to be too much without it, then yeah I'll take the L.

Either that, or Likeshop 2.0 brings back Terapagos by banning only its Stellar Form.
Click to expand...

On the other hand, Gorilla Tactics is strictly inferior to Huge Power or Pure Power, so how can a worse ability be broken when a stronger one isn't? The real difference is the mon it's on; Azumarill, Medicham, and Diggersby have very low Attack stats, Galarian Darmanitan has 140 Attack. Mega Mawile got booted to Ubers with a 105 Attack in XY, and that was item locked and took up the Mega slot.

If we're going the route of "ban the broken move/ability" then there needs to be a strict definition of what qualifies, and setting that definition is basically impossible. If you have a functional one that I can't easily poke holes in, great - I'll post the suggestion on Policy Review for you.

Right now, moves and abilities only get booted for being uncompetitive, not for being overpowered, and given the (seeming?) impossibility of turning the eye test into written policy, I don't see it changing.
 
are we allowed to celebrate over araquanid OU in the discussion thread or...

in seriousness im super happy that these two mons rose; they both deserved this status. pecharunt especially, this thing is basically a tier staple now. hopefully it'll be a full-on OU mon for the rest of the generation, it's insanely good. 252 Speed saves this mon fr.
 
KamenOH said:
I hope that policy stops being so nebulous and, as Jimmer Collins said, Kafkaesque, and we realize that perhaps the broken signature ability is worth banning over the mon, keyword being Signature. I see no reason beyond current policy, whatever that's written as, if it's written, for something like Galarian Darmanitan (I had no other ideas off the top of my head that weren't either obscenely broken outside their signature, or only had that ability) to be shackled down because it could run a scarf&band simultaneously. Then again, if it turns out to be too much without it, then yeah I'll take the L.

Either that, or Likeshop 2.0 brings back Terapagos by banning only its Stellar Form.
Click to expand...
i don't think garm is the best example in the world for this. zen mode has chien-pao's speed and only a marginally smaller damage output, and if you run belly drum you can activate it on command while gaining +6 attack. sure, it does require getting a free turn, but even regular unboosted garm has a big enough damage output to force switches against a lot of things slower than base 95. so i think garm has a pretty decent shot at still being broken outside of gorilla tactics just based on that incredibly stupid stat spread alone. i don't think there are really any good examples of a mon that's broken exclusively because of its signature ability but that can also run other abilities that make it not broken (except maybe kingambit). if i were looking to bring about a policy change like this, i'd be focusing more on the signature-move or near-signature-move aspect and pointing at things like archaludon and annihilape, but that's a discussion that should probably be had closer to the end of the generation or the beginning of the next
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top