Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Ok, this is the last message I am sending, because this conversation is going nowhere. In the first place, you were the one to attack me, I wasn't talking to you, and I was responding to a video that was sent in here saying I agree, apparently, you can't even do that. I see. In the post I responded to it also asked for opinions on the video, but apparently, I cannot say mine since I don't agree with you. Welp. You can keep this tread and this tier for yourself, I am not that interested. Normally one should be able to express their opinion freely but I guess this isn't the case


I never said any of this. I just said that it's quite hard to predict what Valiant will do since there are an insane amount of sets for it and a lot of teras that are viable on it. Making it hard to predict what it will do. Never said anything about it running away with games.
Also, sorry for coming off wayyyy too aggressively, that's my bad. I'm just really tired of all the same criticism that's been thrown at SV since its release, especially when a lot of it (idt yours is in hindsight) is bad faith clearly located in the "current Gen is always bad, long for the old days" camp.
 
Tera is a silver bullet. Once per match, one of your Pokemon will beat a Pokemon it isn't supposed to. It's much healthier and more effective in game to simply view Tera as a delete 1 mon button than it is to view it as changing type.

6v6 singles skill has always been, and still is, about checkmating your opponent where none of their plays can beat yours anymore. Predictions are a gamble when this isn't possible safely.

So when you're planning a strategy for a gen 9 game, stop building your strategy around "I'll predict their tera and the turn they use it." Figure out how to checkmate them despite their Tera swing turn. Basing your whole plan around these predictions is low skill and will drive you insane emotionally too.
 
Tera is a silver bullet. Once per match, one of your Pokemon will beat a Pokemon it isn't supposed to. It's much healthier and more effective in game to simply view Tera as a delete 1 mon button than it is to view it as changing type.

6v6 singles skill has always been, and still is, about checkmating your opponent where none of their plays can beat yours anymore. Predictions are a gamble when this isn't possible safely.

So when you're planning a strategy for a gen 9 game, stop building your strategy around "I'll predict their tera and the turn they use it." Figure out how to checkmate them despite their Tera swing turn. Basing your whole plan around these predictions is low skill and will drive you insane emotionally too.
I agree except the "delete 1 mon button" part. Tera Dark Blissey (the main viable tera) isn't deleting a Gholdengo, but it is preventing progress from being made. Otherwise, you're right. "Once per match, one of your Pokemon will beat a Pokemon it isn't supposed to" is a pretty good summary of why people like/hate it.
 
Iron Valiant sets:
-Choice Band (fake)
-Choice Specs
-Choice Scarf
-SD (Booster atk or spe)
-CM (Booster SpA or spe)
-Mixed (Booster spe or lorb)

Dragapult sets:
-Sash double status
-Standard boots (wisp/twave + ddarts + hex)
-Special boots (Draco + hex + twave)
-Dragon Dance (Life Orb or Leftovers or Boots or sash)
-Choice Band
-Choice Specs
-Choice Scarf (kinda fake)

Idk man pult has just as many as ival. But I get what you mean tbh, ival has less sets but more options within those sets.
Does changing one move make it another set for pult? Because we're leaving out things like encore and destiny bond for val. I'd nearly call booster speed vs spatk different sets too considering the pult sash double status will probably have the same moves as boots. Val is way more diverse, in my perception.
 
Does changing one move make it another set for pult? Because we're leaving out things like encore and destiny bond for val. I'd nearly call booster speed vs spatk different sets too considering the pult sash double status will probably have the same moves as boots. Val is way more diverse, in my perception.
The sash dual status set is completely different for pult than the standard hex set. It plays very differently and is intended more so as a lead/anti-HO tool compared to standard hex pult which is more of a utility breaker

The draco meteor set plays similarly to the mixed set, but it runs a different nature and move. They're similar, though, so I can acknowledge this.

Booster Speed/Attack is a non factor. 9/10 times, similar to nature, the Booster is a preference. Wake can run booster speed or spa, band Moon can do the same but with attack, etc. I see what you mean though.
 
just watched pinkacross video about waterpon and i hope it encourages his viewers to finally promote waterpon suspect and make the tier better, if we get rid of waterpon the other water types like barraskewda (rain will be viable), primarina, rotom wash, manaphy, keldeo and im pretty sure even suicune (classic) with quaquaval can find a place in the tier without waterpon

otherwise the future of sv ou is sad, remember about ss ou and finally start banning really broken things
 
I agree with this. Mola without Pon still has to deal with Clodsire and Volcanion. The first one spams hazards and status, the second one is a good breaker that bypasses Mola unless it uses Mirror Coat. There are other decent Water immune Mons such as Poliwrath (Knock Off + Circle Throw + epic typing that checks every Dark Mon except Moon), Toxicroak (Rain Mon that has impressive movepool and interesting typing), Gastrodon (Clodsire but without the Poison moves and typing), Vaporeon (the Regenless Mola that has much better special bulk and offensive presence while invalidating Mola) or Tatsugiri (spinner than can also sweep with NP sometimes). Apart from that, there is also the general Mola passivity that lets many Mons to take advantage of it, you don,t have to run immunities to prevent it from doing its job.

Manaphy has an even worse case. Its RUBL. It not only is balanced and with almost no usage in OU, but its also balanced and almost no usage in UU. So, in the unlikely case it starts to look problematic (which won,t happen, cause OU has a lot of Grass types, Electric types, Kyurem, Water + coverage resists, special walls, strong and faster revenge killers, etc.) in OU, we just go to UU Tier, see what Mons are giving troubles to Manaphy there for it to have such low usage and chances are at least half of them will be viable in OU.

Waterpon is currently (at least for me) the most problematic OU Mon, more than Kyurem ever dreams to be. Hopefully the survey ends up reflecting that.
Mola can easily tech for Volcanion, esp if its an Offensive set, with Mirror Coat and blow it back. Mon is also getting worn down fast by hazards if it runs another set like specs. In fact, a good number of Volcanion's sets will be struggling to make Progress against Mola. In general, it will only beat Mola with the Fire Spin Taunt set, which is good, but a bit specific.

As for Clodsire, that mon is just too passive. You Wish with Mola and switch out for free. Admittingly, the hazards clod can set up can be annoying, but one of Mola's best partners, G-Weezing, can just Defog them away & Wisp clod for its trouble. Gliscor also completely destroys clodsire, which Mola will often end up being paired with, as do several other breakers that it will be paired with like Ursaluna and Great Tusk (you get Toxic'd but Mola Wishes to heavily alleviate the chip damage from that). Most of the time, Clodsire will struggle even making progress against a Mola team since they are filled with boots mons, though I suppose you could capitalize on this with Weavile or your own Gliscor. And let me just say, that Mola enables FAR more degenerate wallbreakers since it gives them recovery to complement their crazy bulk. Even with Waterpon around, dealing with some of these Mola comps is a nightmare, and I'd imagine it being banned would only make dealing with them worse.

As for manaphy, half the mons you listed are not checks. Grass-types lose to Ice Beam, Kyurem loses to Alluring Voice, Waters all lose to Energy Ball, and even other guys like Raging Bolt and Pex can lose to Tera Blast Tera Ground (which I've faced a few times). And lets not forget the cheap Acid Armor Stored Power sets that can also ignore status and toxic as well. Manaphy's higher item Versatility and wider array of Tera types make it nastier to deal with than Ogerpon-W IMO (for Balanced teams anyways) and its higher effectiveness in OU is attributed to the top mons (Lando-T, Tusk, Gliscor etc.) being food for it. All that said, I could see some of the guys that it struggles with in UU, like Lokix, Latios, Torn-T rising to combat it, but it has better partners in OU to deal with those foes like Raging Bolt, Corv or Ting-Lu. IMO this Pokemon hasn't so much as fallen off - rather it has just been under the radar, since its been very potent whenever I've used it (kinda like Garchomp which I think is similarly crazy still).

There may have been a time I wanted Waterpon banned (back after Arch was banned), but a lots changed since then. I've learned to sequence against the mon better (setting up hazards is key), put it into annoying 50/50s (getting it into more situations where its forced to click Power Whip so Corv / Skarm can deal chip to it with Rocky Helmet, clicking Ruination with Ting-Lu instead of immediately setting up hazards, etc.), running more speed Control mons like Dragapult and Zamazenta (which Ogerpon-W has to awkwardly sequence around), more soft checks like Raging Bolt on balance / bulky offense, alternative Tera-types on mons like Samurott-H or Ting-Lu (which are useful in other match-ups like against Iron Valiant), and I've gone from hating the mon to actually appreciating its presence in the tier given its utility with Encore, ability to actually threaten unbreakable mons like Ting-Lu and Alomomola (which IMO are FAR more cancerous than Ogerpon-W), while also possessing a clear, notable weakness in the Item / Tera lock, middling bulk, and mild 4MSS. If it was suspected, I probably wouldn't vote ban at this time.
 
I agree with everything he said, I cannot stand current Gen 9, it's the most frustrating and unbalanced experience I have ever had, I'd argue Gen 2 is more fun than whatever this is. Every game is decided by 50-50, power creep is out of the roof and you cannot predict anything consistently, this tier is terrible, to say the least, I know I sound a bit mad but I genuinely cannot play this tier anymore, and I was in wcop, these are all personal opinions but it is a fact that this gen power creep is through the roof (which is NOT a good thing, and instead of banning broken mons we ADD MORE, I do not understand how this happened. genuinely.) we can also argue that tera is fundamentally broken. Taking valiant as an example as he did with the amount of sets and teras that thing can run it's more like a 10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10 than a 50-50. I am at my limit. This tier has no saving and it's not gonna get better I am pretty sure, I shall play old gens and pray Gen 10 comes fast (and doesn't get completely ruined like this one) Even if we ban 6 Mons right now Gen 9 is not even gonna get that much better, we need to ban tera, I get fun and let's all be more casual! But genuinely this tier is torture, and I don't want to see it ever again, this is the opposite of fun. LOL welp. Please ban or restrict tera (ban it)
A survey is coming next week, but honestly, I am not hopeful at all, let's see what happens.


schizoposting on main: done
In this entire post you managed to complain about SV and the only evidence you provided is the set variety of a mon the literal OU tier leader said was incredibly balanced. Everything else you said had no evidence to back it up whatsoever.
which is NOT a good thing, and instead of banning broken mons we ADD MORE, I do not understand how this happened. genuinely
What are you talking about? The Palafin retest? Can you at least say what we unbanned?
Please ban or restrict tera (ban it)
You don’t even explain why except “haha unpredictable 10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10”

Overall this sounds like a rage bait but it’s probably not one.
 
just watched pinkacross video about waterpon and i hope it encourages his viewers to finally promote waterpon suspect and make the tier better, if we get rid of waterpon the other water types like barraskewda (rain will be viable), primarina, rotom wash, manaphy, keldeo and im pretty sure even suicune (classic) with quaquaval can find a place in the tier without waterpon

otherwise the future of sv ou is sad, remember about ss ou and finally start banning really broken things
Naming a Rain HO fiend (that playstyle being viable will surely make the meta better...), an A ranker, and Keldeo (already considered good and has been seeing use on very successful teams like the CTC Keldeo build) as mons that don't have a place in the tier just because of Wogerpon is kinda craaazy. Personally I dig Wogerpon limiting the potency of playstyles like Rain cause it allows more flexibility in the builder when dealing with them. This Wogerpon talk just seems like people really wanting to ban something good instead of a Kyurem or Tera Blast who are actually broken.
 
Naming a Rain HO fiend (that playstyle being viable will surely make the meta better...), an A ranker, and Keldeo (already considered good and has been seeing use on very successful teams like the CTC Keldeo build) as mons that don't have a place in the tier just because of Wogerpon is kinda craaazy. Personally I dig Wogerpon limiting the potency of playstyles like Rain cause it allows more flexibility in the builder when dealing with them. This Wogerpon talk just seems like people really wanting to ban something good instead of a Kyurem or Tera Blast who are actually broken.
Kyurem and Tera Blast are broken (CTC Keldeo back again because you see Kyurem in 1/10 games XD, remind me how often this team was used when SubTect Kyurem was really popular and when Kyurem was banned)

I just checked the stats for the last month and the only Tera Blast users are Landorus (crazy set), Dragapult, Dragonite, Enamorus and Iron Moth, 5/38 mons in OU have Tera Blast sets, absolutely unhealthy move. If Dragonite, Pult and Landorus had stab-moves instead of Tera Blast, would you suggest banning them?
 
If Dragonite, Pult and Landorus had stab-moves instead of Tera Blast, would you suggest banning them?
Could you scrap the bad faith attitude please? It's doing nothing for your post and the rest of it also misses the point with Tera Blast entirely. Commonly attempting to dismiss action against Tera Blast because "it's not that commonly used", when the real issue is that it enables pokemon to on a whim, handpick counterplay that it shouldn't be able to. We saw this with Volcarona, we see this with Kyurem at high level play (more and more honestly), Kingambit sometimes runs it with Tera Fairy, there's probably way more I'm forgetting too.

The move as a whole doesn't bring anything to the tier but needless volatility in allowing these already dangerous, tough to answer threats to further reduce the scope of overlapping counterplay.

That said,

This Wogerpon talk just seems like people really wanting to ban something good instead of a Kyurem or Tera Blast who are actually broken.
I'm also lost on what this is meant to mean? Kyurem is broken, there's not much to argue about there, but Wellspring still is a polarizing pokemon with rather specific answers, and both of these mons can be problems.
 
Iron Valiant sets:
-Choice Band (fake)
-Choice Specs
-Choice Scarf
-SD (Booster atk or spe)
-CM (Booster SpA or spe)
-Mixed (Booster spe or lorb)

Dragapult sets:
-Sash double status
-Standard boots (wisp/twave + ddarts + hex)
-Special boots (Draco + hex + twave)
-Dragon Dance (Life Orb or Leftovers or Boots or sash)
-Choice Band
-Choice Specs
-Choice Scarf (kinda fake)

Idk man pult has just as many as ival. But I get what you mean tbh, ival has less sets but more options within those sets.
im sorry but this post is such bad faith, no, dragapult does NOT have more sets than ival.

Saying SD and CM as if theres only 2 sets, Atk/SpA or Spe is disingenuous.

SD Has: Stabs + Knock
CC Knonk Encore
Liquidation CC Knock tera water
Tera dark knock spirit break encore
Thunder Punch ice punch CC
taunt + stabs
etc.

these sets i have seen in tournament play and high ladder, and all of these sets serve different purpose. Liquidation sets are the bane of moltres gliscor balance, cc knock encore are the bane of bulky offense, stabs + knock beats opposing offense, taunt + stabs beat ting lu dnite balances. All of these, while Iron Valiants inherent strength of being an amazing anti offense pokemon persists.

Thats just the SD sets, and most people know SD is not a great iron valiant set that is match-up fishy, outclassed by utility and cm sets. CM has double the sets with some broken 'new' discoveries like SubCM Thunderbolt Moonblast, CM Tera Blast Ground Vacuum Wave Moonblast, and CM Tera Flying Taunt.

I share the same opinion with procorphish that iron valiant needs a bit too much support to become ban-worthy broken, but saying that it has "less sets" is incredibly underselling what iron valiant can do.
 
Commonly attempting to dismiss action against Tera Blast because "it's not that commonly used", when the real issue is that it enables pokemon to on a whim, handpick counterplay that it shouldn't be able to. We saw this with Volcarona, we see this with Kyurem at high level play (more and more honestly), Kingambit sometimes runs it with Tera Fairy, there's probably way more I'm forgetting too.
We saw this with Volcarona, we saw this with Regieleki, we saw this with Gouging Fire, we banned all these mons, because we prefer to ban 3 mons than 1 move, and now we still want to ban Tera Blast, when the tier has literally no more mons who use it.

Not looking for logic here because it makes no sense, if someone wants to ban Tera Blast after losing to Tera Blast Kingambit once, random pics will be better than any words here.
 
We saw this with Volcarona, we saw this with Regieleki, we saw this with Gouging Fire, we banned all these mons, because we prefer to ban 3 mons than 1 move, and now we still want to ban Tera Blast, when the tier has literally no more mons who use it.

Not looking for logic here because it makes no sense, if someone wants to ban Tera Blast after losing to Tera Blast Kingambit once, random pics will be better than any words here.
*asks you not to post in bad faith*

*you continue to post in bad faith*

It's not like opinions and viewpoints can't change with time. Or how the general community hasn't offered the support to act on TB even though tourney plays have wanted to for some time. The tier "literally" has no more mons who use it? Kyurem was already mentioned (you can snarkily ignore its impact but that's just being disingenuous), Kingambit isn't some lolwhatever random happenstance once, it's something the mon can and does run on occasion to snipe supposed counterplay. The previously banned mons that used it, and I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting that also sometimes run it on their sweeping sets. Matter of fact, as I type this I seem to remember some whispers about a TB Fairy Roaring Moon set somewhere (could be remembering wrong or thinking of a different mon).
 
im sorry but this post is such bad faith, no, dragapult does NOT have more sets than ival.

Saying SD and CM as if theres only 2 sets, Atk/SpA or Spe is disingenuous.

SD Has: Stabs + Knock
CC Knonk Encore
Liquidation CC Knock tera water
Tera dark knock spirit break encore
Thunder Punch ice punch CC
taunt + stabs
etc.

these sets i have seen in tournament play and high ladder, and all of these sets serve different purpose. Liquidation sets are the bane of moltres gliscor balance, cc knock encore are the bane of bulky offense, stabs + knock beats opposing offense, taunt + stabs beat ting lu dnite balances. All of these, while Iron Valiants inherent strength of being an amazing anti offense pokemon persists.

Thats just the SD sets, and most people know SD is not a great iron valiant set that is match-up fishy, outclassed by utility and cm sets. CM has double the sets with some broken 'new' discoveries like SubCM Thunderbolt Moonblast, CM Tera Blast Ground Vacuum Wave Moonblast, and CM Tera Flying Taunt.

I share the same opinion with procorphish that iron valiant needs a bit too much support to become ban-worthy broken, but saying that it has "less sets" is incredibly underselling what iron valiant can do.
Oh, but I didn't say that, did I? I expressly stated that the amount of sets ≠ the amount of options within the sets. Calling someone a bad faith poster while deliberately misunderstanding their post to make them seem bad faith is insane.

Dragapult has band, specs, scarf, ddance, sash, and boots.
Ival has SD, CM, specs, scarf, and mixed.

That's more sets. The difference is ival having more options within those sets which is part of the point I was trying to make.

We saw this with Volcarona, we saw this with Regieleki, we saw this with Gouging Fire, we banned all these mons, because we prefer to ban 3 mons than 1 move, and now we still want to ban Tera Blast, when the tier has literally no more mons who use it.

Not looking for logic here because it makes no sense, if someone wants to ban Tera Blast after losing to Tera Blast Kingambit once, random pics will be better than any words here.
Tera blast is uncompetitive. The point is that free coverage at any time is inherently unhealthy (much like anti-Tera argues say Tera is) and a common argument is that it's a way to turn Tera into a more healthy mechanic.

"The tier has literally no more mons who want to use it."

1) the point is to bring volcarona back to give healthy kyurem counterplay as well as other mons. Also because volcarona is a fun mon

2) Lando-T Roaring Moon, Kingambit, Rillaboom, Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, Dnite, Kyurem, Enam etc.

We didn't start the fire

Also Tera Fairy Roaring Moon is starting to pick up steam. Storm Zone was quoted to say "If I bring this in a tourney scene, this mon is gonna get banned." (In a random showdown battle against Sire Clod LMAO) so there's definitely merit behind it. Remains to be seen, however. (I think it's a good set.)


I'd like for people in this discussion thread to actually engage in good faith with SV OU discussion (not attacking any users here) because the amount of bad faith "I hate SV OU" or "Ban Tera" or "Unban fuckin whatever" posts are obscene and it makes this thread a nightmare to read and participate in.
 
Storm Zone was quoted to say "If I bring this in a tourney scene, this mon is gonna get banned." (In a random showdown battle against Sire Clod LMAO)
People larp all the time during battles. Are you unironically using this as evidence of a move being broken lmao.
I'm using it as evidence that Tera Fairy Moon being a viable set. Also the battle was a bulky Tera Fairy Moon absolutely destroying poor widdle Sire Clod uwu someone.
Pretty much any shitmon can dominate a matchup, that's not special
 
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I'd like for people in this discussion thread to actually engage in good faith with SV OU discussion (not attacking any users here) because the amount of bad faith "I hate SV OU" or "Ban Tera" or "Unban fuckin whatever" posts are obscene and it makes this thread a nightmare to read and participate in.
This is quite funny because the amount of whining regarding Tera Blast is off the charts; meanwhile, someone comes into the thread with a complaint about Tera or explaining how they dislike the state of SV OU now and gets flamed for it by the very same people regurgitating the same posts regarding Tera Blast over and over again.
 
This is quite funny because the amount of whining regarding Tera Blast is off the charts; meanwhile, someone comes into the thread with a complaint about Tera or explaining how they dislike the state of SV OU now and gets flamed for it by the very same people regurgitating the same posts regarding Tera Blast over and over again.
The point is that tblast is a minor quality of life change that allows us make Tera slightly less annoying and barely changes shit, whereas Tera ban completely uproots the metagame, makes stall borderline unviable, and causes like a chain of unbans to happen
 
The point is that tblast is a minor quality of life change that allows us make Tera slightly less annoying and barely changes shit, whereas Tera ban completely uproots the metagame, makes stall borderline unviable, and causes like a chain of unbans to happen
Banning Tera Blast would be more than a minor quality of life change. It would (hopefully) allow us to bring back Volcarona to use Tera Grass Giga Drain to shit all over G*rg. That is more than minor.
 
The point is that tblast is a minor quality of life change that allows us make Tera slightly less annoying and barely changes shit, whereas Tera ban completely uproots the metagame, makes stall borderline unviable, and causes like a chain of unbans to happen
I feel like people like this should be ignored because gen 9 has had to handle the same two arguments about Tera 50/50s and power creep since day 1. Like these issues have been baking in the oven since before flutter mane was banned to ubers. Idk. Maybe spout some new arguments when nobody really cares to listen to these old ones anymore.

Gen 9 is a fun metagame to me, it's dynamic and has a multitude of viable playstyles, stall is varied but centralized and not that hard to break, HO is varied but not varied to the point where it's broken, Tera is dynamic and creates fun and skillful prediction scenarios, the paradox mons are cool, etc. Gen 9 is really fun to me! I think coming here just to complain about the same two issues is really dumb and a massive waste of time.
"You're not free to shut me up" shut up

If all you're gonna do when entering forums is complain, why are you even here? Come back when shit you want is actually changing.

Okay but whats wrong with that? i just read these series of argument against kibo and they're aggressive for no good reason.

this is Metagame Discussion afterall, im still in the middle about tera ban but i think a lot of people agree that a suspect is overdue be it a full on tera suspect or something minor like tera blast. It is a fair critique of the meta even tho i disagree with some sentiments. Don't forget that the metagame we play is made by the community and mostly run by the community aswell. If someone like Kibo comes in to say "i dont like this meta because its unbalanced and it needs changes" they don't do it out of malice, rather love for the game. Towards the end of Gen 8 OU being current gen i extensively complained about the meta on how it can be changed to be less same-y with the same few balance and bulky offense threats being top tier creating a safe, boring meta game that doesn't express the same creativity or skill like it did during the better parts of the metagame. Why did i do that? because i enjoyed gen 8 ou before it was optimized, and when i saw the amount of regen spam and shifu future sight it lead to (in my opinion) a much more boring metagame centered around regenerator. So i went to the metagame forums to propose potential fixes to the metagame.

So why should we sit back when a metagame is not to our desire? why wait a non-disclosed amount of time for something to happen. I get the council has lives outside of forums but why is it wrong asking questions and complaining about whats wrong with the meta and suggesting potential fixes?

Why should we just ignore whats wrong with the meta and even worse, ignore other peoples gripe with the meta? if anything this should always be at the forefront of discussion before we can continue discussing what we can do with current meta. People play smogon's pokemon for the love of the game and as a hobby so it is within their right to complain about the meta and suggest changes, so that last post saying to come back when stuff you want is actually changing makes no sense when you yourself say to stop complaining about everything.

I do enjoy the current metagame but we should be open minded for potential changes and see if it can make for a better meta or not. I'll post about my thoughts at a later date but for now i just want to say this to prevent unecessary gatekeeping that has been going on here.
 
Metagame circumstances make different types of Tera shine in different ways; as such, I wanted to rank each Tera type based on their OU presence and how reliable they are at filling their designated roles.


What do you think? Do you agree/disagree with my rankings? If so, what do you feel is at the top of the food chain?
 
Ogerpon - Wellspring is an interesting pokémon to look at and analyze if she should be banned. I honestly still think that Kyurem, Gliscor and Kingambit are stronger contenders for a ban (If a ban was to be made in the first place tho). Waterpon has clear drawbacks ( predictable on set, weak to hazards, not that bulky pre-tera, not resisting any type of priority except Scizor BP which still is a 3HKO without counting hazards btw).


But it also decimates non-amoonguss stall teams, balance teams and key pokémon from every single team style by herself. It's really splashable and I actually use her a lot since her ability to also have tools like Knock Off or Encore is extremely valuable in the tier. Even her signature move (Ivy Crudgel) is insane. It has 16 PP so it can be spammed for some time, no drawbacks, it doesn't make contact and it even has 1/8 crit chance on a 100 BP move. One of the best moves in the game tbh.
It can even use her strong pressence to lair out Spikes, so yeah, she's really good.

Of course without her Rain would be better, some high tier pokémon like Alomomola or Landorus, as well as the top tier Great Tusk. But I think that that's just on paper an deeper metagame evolutions are too complicated to just theorize.

Due to Palafin being dropped to OU when it was tested, I suggest that if a Pokémon is to be suspected, it should be temporarly restricted to be used in OU, or we should get an alternative ladder / open tournament without the Pokemon. It's just a suggestion in good faith.

As for Tera, I feel like the same discussion has been brought upon since the suspect test fiasco. I'm anti-tera, I've been it for years, but I don't hate it. I just think that, if more than half of the bans in OU (Maybe the number's wrong mb, but from the top of my head: Gouging Fire, Volcarona, Terapagos, Regieleki, Sneasler, Palafin, Firepon, Archauludon, Baxcalibur, Annihilape, Esparthra) I do not mean we should unban every single one of those mons post - Tera. What I mean is that tera is a huge reason why those Pokémon were banned in the first place. were due to tera /tera was a big factor, most of the problematic Pokémon in the tier (Kingambit, Kyurem, Waterpon, Gliscor and Raging Bolt to a minor extent) are a problem due to tera, and the topic gets brought time after time, something should be done. A suspect test maybe? Idk, that's everything I want to add about the topic.
Please don't use my first point as an Uber dropping starting point. I do not mean to drive the conversation towards that point since it leads to nowhere. Thanks for reading
 
when the real issue is that it enables pokemon to on a whim, handpick counterplay that it shouldn't be able to.
RIP Hidden Power

Gens 3-7

I was playing Gen 7 yesterday (after taking up the format some days ago) and I won vs a top 50 player in part because turn 1 I was able to delete his Landorus with my own Landorus using HP Ice. And I got to keep my Ground-Flying typing. Same team also has a Volcarona with HP Ground that can 6-0 teams if it can boost twice with QD.

I don't see how Tera Blast is worse. Yes it's stronger, but you need to commit your tera, become vulnerable to other types and waste a moveslot in case you have to tera another mon. Fair tradeoffs to me.

The only thing that's egregious is the defensive type change that allows you at least 1 free turn to set up (Tera Fairy Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire) and that's a problem of Tera, not Blast.

Actually ban Tera Blast, ban Tera and retroactively ban Hidden Power. It's true, you are right, having any coverage you can choose is stupid.
 
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