★ Ironic - Iron Crown Suspect

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Felucia

Felucia

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After receiving quite a bit of support for tiering action on the recent metagame survey, and being the hot topic of many conversations across the 1v1 community, Iron Crown is being suspect tested. Iron Crown stands strong as one of the best Pokémon in the metagame, with its Weakness Policy and SpA booster sets being very reliable into top metagame threats. However, its power does not end there, Iron Crown can run a variety of items and EV spreads that together narrow down its reliable counters to only a handful. Its good speed and defensive stats, next to its strong typing, mean it can EV for a large amount of counters, and even moreso if you consider it can have booster energy to buff any of Defense, Special Defense, Speed, and Special Attack. This gives it a oppressive role in both the teambuilder and on team preview.

That does not mean it's without reliable counters. Generally, Iron Crown struggles against bulky Fire and Dark types. Skeledirge, Moltres-Galar, Volcarona and Volcanion easily survive any hit Iron Crown can throw at them, and can reliably KO back before they fall to Crown's power. Other Pokémon like Zapdos, Urshifu, Zarude, and Chien-Pao can beat a majority of its sets, even if it's possible for Iron Crown to run a set that beats them.

What do you think? Does Iron Crown's strong base set and set diversity push it over the edge as an unhealthy influence, or is it a strong but healthy Pokémon keeping the metagame together? Post any thoughts you might have about Iron Crown on this thread or the 1v1 Metagame discussion thread!

In order to become a qualified voter, you need to achieve 2850 COIL on the 1v1 ladder.

Alt registration process
  • Make any new account on PS, there's no requirements for name prefix these days.
    • You may use an existing alt, but only if it has never been used to play Gen 9 1v1 ladder games before.
  • At any point, you can use the command /linksmogon and follow the instructions to link your alt to your Smogon account
  • When you've reached reqs, verify that your alt is listed on the Suspect Page and let me know if you're not.
  • As per usual, do not play on the alt after reaching reqs
Let me know if you have any questions about this process.

The deadline is Friday January 31st at 09:59am UTC.
 
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ok quick yapfest after getting reqs

this mon sucks. i hate him. he has like fifty different sets and they're all annoying in the builder and they somehow become even MORE annoying in play. spdef wp, physdef wp, speed booster, specs, def booster, av.... the list goes on, just feels so insane when im using it and so impossible when playing against it. feels like the only somewhat reliable checks are the fires (volcanion, voclarona and dirge. i have seen this guy beat some unspeakable things, like rmoon, hoopau and goltres. pls vote ban :pray:

(and yes i know i dont have to psot my proof but old habits die hard)
 
This is why we SHOULDN'T ban Iron Crown in SV 1v1.

Iron Crown is the literal definition of S rank in 1v1. It is an amazing Pokemon which is blessed by great typing and great stats, plus it has many amazing tools in its moveset. It's no surprise that people are afraid of it and want to limit the interaction with it on preview but this fear doesn't justify the ban.

1) Iron Crown checks are linear, diverse, and not rare. Iron Crown typing is a double edged sword, it has an amazing defensive synergy however this leaves it open to the many Dark-, Fire-, and Ground-type Pokemon that roam in the tier. A lot of these Pokemon are also viable outside of checking Iron Crown, which means they are not specifically used to beat Iron Crown, they offer much more to that. Think of Pokemon like Volcarona, Skeledirge (p sure it beats the majority majority of sets), Landorus-T, Garchomp, Roaring Moon, Hoopa-Unbound, Arcanine-H, Volcanion, Urshifu-Single, Moltres-G, a lot of Ursalunas. Adding to that the other types that have a great matchup against it and can only lose to some very specific sets; Manaphy, Corviknight, Registeel, Spectrier, Chien-Pao, Ogerpon-W, Spectrier, Metagross, Icy Wind Encore Prim... There's literally a lot of diverse Pokemon from different typing that even synergize together and can force Iron Crown into the backfoot 1-2 matchup in a lot of teams. Now, yes Iron Crown can tech the Pokemon but the opportunity cost is high, which is my second point;

2) Iron Crown diversity comes at an opportunity cost. This Pokemon can beat its checks with some sets or niche moves mainly X-Scissor, Focus Blast, Anti-Volcanion spdf, Specs... but its set has its own opportunity cost. First, booster reveals that Iron Crown isn't WP which makes you play the game differently and can result in a win for Iron Crown's foe. This is specifically a very important point. Iron Crowns that are WP are too weak to beat boosting moves Pokemon, and cannot beat Dark-types reliably. Iron Crowns that are offensive fails to check the hard hitting Pokemon i.e the one it relies on CM/ID to beat... This Pokemon can end up losing to things it's not even supposed to lose to i.e Ground move Regidrago by just being the wrong set.

Additionally, not only booster energy is revealed in-game, the sets can be guessed on preview. Spe Booster Crown isn't used if the team isn't weak to Encore Prim, Chien Pao, Meowscarada for example. Spa Booster Focus Blast or anything X-Scissor isn't used if the team isn't struggling against Dark-Type Pokemon, plus X-Scissor doesn't beat all Dark-types, and Focus Blast doesn't beat all Dark-types. This diversity stretches Iron Crown too thin specially when the opponent builds diversly and synergized two Iron Crown checks on one team which is natural and easy to do.

For the above reasons 3) Iron Crown is healthy to the metagame. Iron Crown pushes creativity, better building, and better preview guessing. It pushes smart building, and smart playing. Iron Crown doesn't force you to run a specific set of 5 Pokemon so it doesn't restrict building nor hides all its sets and cheese wins from you. Au contraire, it's a healthy element of the metagame as much as an S rank can be. It allows some Pokemon to flourish and become an integral part of the metagame, it keeps in check problematic Pokemon in the game while being an added value.

4) Iron Crown is a victim of the metagame dynamic and not the issue. The reason the metagame is restricted and the way it is is because of Regidrago and not Iron Crown. The aforementioned Iron Crown checks written above all can fit easily on teams, as core of two, and as trios even but are held back by the presence of Regidrago. With that element gone, Iron Crown diversity will be held back by the abundance of its checks.

I urge everyone to vote DNB on Iron Crown as it is an extremely healthy S rank in the metagame and it being gone would actually remove a positive added value. Feel free to reply with questions and I might expand more on my opinion.
 
DEG said:
This is why we SHOULDN'T ban Iron Crown in SV 1v1.

Iron Crown is the literal definition of S rank in 1v1. It is an amazing Pokemon which is blessed by great typing and great stats, plus it has many amazing tools in its moveset. It's no surprise that people are afraid of it and want to limit the interaction with it on preview but this fear doesn't justify the ban.

1) Iron Crown checks are linear, diverse, and not rare. Iron Crown typing is a double edged sword, it has an amazing defensive synergy however this leaves it open to the many Dark-, Fire-, and Ground-type Pokemon that roam in the tier. A lot of these Pokemon are also viable outside of checking Iron Crown, which means they are not specifically used to beat Iron Crown, they offer much more to that. Think of Pokemon like Volcarona, Skeledirge (p sure it beats the majority majority of sets), Landorus-T, Garchomp, Roaring Moon, Hoopa-Unbound, Arcanine-H, Volcanion, Urshifu-Single, Moltres-G, a lot of Ursalunas. Adding to that the other types that have a great matchup against it and can only lose to some very specific sets; Manaphy, Corviknight, Registeel, Spectrier, Chien-Pao, Ogerpon-W, Spectrier, Metagross, Icy Wind Encore Prim... There's literally a lot of diverse Pokemon from different typing that even synergize together and can force Iron Crown into the backfoot 1-2 matchup in a lot of teams. Now, yes Iron Crown can tech the Pokemon but the opportunity cost is high, which is my second point;

2) Iron Crown diversity comes at an opportunity cost. This Pokemon can beat its checks with some sets or niche moves mainly X-Scissor, Focus Blast, Anti-Volcanion spdf, Specs... but its set has its own opportunity cost. First, booster reveals that Iron Crown isn't WP which makes you play the game differently and can result in a win for Iron Crown's foe. This is specifically a very important point. Iron Crowns that are WP are too weak to beat boosting moves Pokemon, and cannot beat Dark-types reliably. Iron Crowns that are offensive fails to check the hard hitting Pokemon i.e the one it relies on CM/ID to beat... This Pokemon can end up losing to things it's not even supposed to lose to i.e Ground move Regidrago by just being the wrong set.

Additionally, not only booster energy is revealed in-game, the sets can be guessed on preview. Spe Booster Crown isn't used if the team isn't weak to Encore Prim, Chien Pao, Meowscarada for example. Spa Booster Focus Blast or anything X-Scissor isn't used if the team isn't struggling against Dark-Type Pokemon, plus X-Scissor doesn't beat all Dark-types, and Focus Blast doesn't beat all Dark-types. This diversity stretches Iron Crown too thin specially when the opponent builds diversly and synergized two Iron Crown checks on one team which is natural and easy to do.

For the above reasons 3) Iron Crown is healthy to the metagame. Iron Crown pushes creativity, better building, and better preview guessing. It pushes smart building, and smart playing. Iron Crown doesn't force you to run a specific set of 5 Pokemon so it doesn't restrict building nor hides all its sets and cheese wins from you. Au contraire, it's a healthy element of the metagame as much as an S rank can be. It allows some Pokemon to flourish and become an integral part of the metagame, it keeps in check problematic Pokemon in the game while being an added value.

4) Iron Crown is a victim of the metagame dynamic and not the issue. The reason the metagame is restricted and the way it is is because of Regidrago and not Iron Crown. The aforementioned Iron Crown checks written above all can fit easily on teams, as core of two, and as trios even but are held back by the presence of Regidrago. With that element gone, Iron Crown diversity will be held back by the abundance of its checks.

I urge everyone to vote DNB on Iron Crown as it is an extremely healthy S rank in the metagame and it being gone would actually remove a positive added value. Feel free to reply with questions and I might expand more on my opinion.
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counterargument: 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quark Drive Iron Crown: 302-356 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Aco2PlaysShowdown said:
https://pokepast.es/c1b03611329c7e36
20 or so crown sets all of them beat something all are viable besides lorb all of them are reasons why crown should be banned
If u vote dnb on crown its painfully obvious u dont know a single thing about the metagame and its quite obvious (people like big chuchu who say defense booster isnt real)
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Why don't you show us your immense metagame knowledge instead of attacking others for having an opposite opinion. Go ahead tell us how Iron Crown is restricting and how that these sets have zero opportunity cost and beat everything.

Posting 20 sets doesn't actually add anything since every Pokemon can have 20+ sets. Deeper things matter in these stuff like opportunity cost, how restricting it is, and its synergy within the metagame. If you want to learn more I'm happy to help!
 
Aco2PlaysShowdown said:
https://pokepast.es/c1b03611329c7e36
20 or so crown sets all of them beat something all are viable besides lorb all of them are reasons why crown should be banned
If u vote dnb on crown its painfully obvious u dont know a single thing about the metagame and its quite obvious (people like big chuchu who say defense booster isnt real)
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>20 or so sets
>look inside
>rest stall
>physical LO electric terrain

posting a lot of sets doesn't mean anything and it means even less if you post random shitty sets.

1737230228492.png

beats both lando formes and okidogi
 
Aco2PlaysShowdown said:
Fifth, u claim that most of crowns sets are fake/ bad. If this is the case then we should unban other mons that have been banned for having too many sets like necrozma because clearly not all of them can be real
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This is a really bad attempt at trying to argue crown's set diversity.

Every set has opportunity cost: What it must give up to gain something. You've posted many crown sets that have high opportunity costs: they give up a lot. That tachyon-less stall might beat av volcanion ( a single set lol) but it's losing to whimsicott lmao.
Mons like Arch, which had insane set diversity, could gain many matchups while maintaining core matchups, or gaining a new matchup spread just as good as another set. Notice how this is not true for max max rest stored power iron crown!

The entire point is that nicher archaludon sets WERE real and could work well ona. team while electric terrain crown might as well be in challenge cup 1v1.

Seventh, u claim I am attacking other players when infact I dont want people who clearly lack knowledge about the metagame/ the suspected mon telling me that im wrong when Im not
Im tired of "respected players" thinking they know stuff about the metagame and then not being able to back it up like you Deg
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Whats with the random ego? Deg made a good post detailing his points and backing them up. You posted a paste with shit sets, insulted others and didn't defend anything properly. Argue properly and stop flaming players that are much better than you.

I would actually like to see your immense knowledge of the metagame as well. U claim that fire and dark types "roam the tier" when in fact iron crown can beat most of these dark types and fire types that "counter it"
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You can tech almost any mon into beating one of its checks with a fake set. But Re: opportunity cost. Also please look up the difference between a check and a counter.

Thirdly, u claim that regidrago is the real problem, which is nowhere close to true as regidrago has a plentiful amount of counters
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Me when I don't read any of the arguments about drago so I think the arguments against it are about it not having enough counters.

Fourthly, u claim that 252/252+ crown is not real, when it very much is.
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Me when I flame others for "not backing up their points" then don't back up my points


TL;DR : Fake sets are fake, opportunity cost exists, and stop flaming better players when you have nothing to show for yourself. Building a bunch of fake sets and then pasting the clerica box on top does not make you Socrates.

I wrote this on mobile so mb for the weird formatting.
 
I did skip wc like a hoodlum but I think my handle on SV in a tour context is pretty good from last pl+umpl+keeping up with replays. It's my opinion that SV is in a really good spot right now (likely the best it's ever been) and does not need any changes. There's no strategies that feel impossible to punish and theres a high amount of flexibility when it comes to approaching prep. This is the opposite of how I felt during hearthflame+gouging meta.

On the topic of Iron Crown, it might have a claim to being one of the healthiest s-tiers that a 1v1 gen has seen:
  • It's one of the few mons that can punish the SV godsquad of volcanion, valiant, filler.
This point isn't about how banning crown will make a future meta worse. It's about how crown currently offers an essential role to the metagame. It's absolutely critical for 1v1 metas to have avenues to punish the best structures, look at old ORAS where zardx/mgross/gren was almost completely unpunishable. Crown being able to specialize to beat typical steel checks provides an healthy dynamic to the meta and discourages lazy prep.
  • It has a solid amount of counters that differ in strategy while still being strongly viable - volcarona, hoopa, zapdos, spectrier, metagross, encore leech wellspring.
Part of what makes a mon like Jirachi, which employs similar strategies to crown, so backbreaking is access to tools like encore/trick (blanks all non-attacker strategies) and coverage like moonblast (blanks the best dark type). Jirachis fully reliable counterplay is basically limited to fire type attackers. Iron Crown counters have a mix of attackers, av tanks, setup, stall and stallbreakers. It simply does not restrict teambuilding to the point where nearly all viable structures will have a mon with the same type/role in order to not autolose to it.
  • It's strong checks require specialization for it to beat - corviknight, dragapult, urshifu, chien-pao, manaphy
Yes, speed booster flips a lot of b-tier matchups, spa booster focus blast can nuke corv/some urshifu and lunas but each of it's sets come with a very sizable oppurtunity cost. Dropping weakness policy loses a ton of core matchups and running bulky spreads in general comes with their own cost. A lot of people throw around 252+ modest and max bulk calcs, but speed is a critical stat for Iron Crown and a lot of it's matchups get decided by who moves first.
Throwback: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2173065882-rw01fyjaatsunnmbyf4at3p1runnhh6pw

Crown has received more development but my opinion on it's place in the meta has not really changed since my last post. It's position as an s-tier is based more on the surrounding meta than crown's strength as a mon (which is definitely high to be clear). I joked to radu that I need to see this beat an av urshifu in tour to be convinced to vote ban but honestly I think that is close to what it would take. I will be voting do not ban.
 
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Mentality said:
Deg made a good post detailing his points and backing them up
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i mean some of the examples are bad, but at least he IS justifying his points:

harcanine is terrible, but its not even beating crown anyway idt?
(loses to faster id -> procs wp and dies, or just blown up by specs focus blast [or the compgen steel beam special])
shifu single idk if it can beat both specs and def wp in a single set? av eats steel beam and chople eats focus blast so its a setguess for shifu/crown?
av luna gets idef'd and procs wp and loses.
cb luna gets idef into idef and dies to sp
guts can just die to specs focus blast and still has to play games but will usually win (its still the most uncommon of the three luna sets though)
chople bmursa loses to specs steel beam, and loses to wp clicking cm as it procs wp and dies (even without a boost u cant kill with ep -> vacuum wave)
scarf bmursa procs wp and dies 87.5% of the time
av bmursa lets it cm twice and gets brutally murdered by sp after proccing its wp.
registeel loses (specs focus blast hitting twice vs physdef OR giga boost war vs both sets and regi loses)
waterpon can be ev'd for and doesn't always win depending on its set and crown's set (a very common theme don'tcha think)
corviknight omegalol, this guy loses to so many sets (specs focus blast, specs volt switch, spa booster cm volt switch, spa booster cm focus blast )
chien pao loses to speed booster or def booster
prim clicks icy wind and proceeds to die to specs
cb & lo lando-t gets cooked by fast wp clicking id (or specs clikcing steel beam, tachyon is a roll to ko)
av lando-t gets idef'd on and then sp'd twice and dies

like in general crown's consistent counterplay is extremely limited, and while u can setguess, i personally just dont think the counterplay to it is reliable enough for me to want to keep it around.

also on the point of blaming drago. this is a crown suspect thread, not a drago one. drago failed its suspect and got voted dns on its latest vote, and while i dont think thats the end of action on drago, its not the focus of this, and its DEFINITELY not the reason crown is so strong. (also drago really isn't that restricting regardless, since 99% of teams are running a steel or fairy anyway, and it hasn't felt that strong in practice or the builder).

also i could totally have overlooked something here and feel free to ping me if i have, but i'll be voting ban as said earlier.

also can we plz be respectful thx guys
 
I don't believe crown to be a negative asset to the tier, it allows for more flexibility in archetypes than most top tiers in the tiers history and I don't believe any set to be a genuine hassle to play around.

While crown CAN run many different sets the legitimate diversity you see in tour is not an endless list here, with specs, av, and speed booster generally being very niche applications. Crown has really strong core matchups and having a multi-hit move that isn't useless actually gives it an insane niche in denying sub mons without having to slot the weaker psychic noise. Both physical and special WP are great, alongside special attack booster since it gives u better opposing cm mon matchups such as bolt as well as bulking faster knock mons. Despite this, it does face a lot of adversity.

A lot of the strength crown gets is due to being really bulky, as well as having great typing, however it has a lot of weaknesses (not remedied by sets it can feasibly run) that do often get exploited. WP cannot simultaneously be fast and slow, and matchups/sequences do change a lot based on it. Alongside the fact that non boosting item crown is way weaker than the boosted variants, often due to most of the spreads optimizing bulk over damage but most opposing setup that can play around a weakness policy or just don't trigger it entirely will just win outright. Most matchups for this mon are not so explicit either. While crown does have outs into a lot of matchups due to opponents overbulking other matchups and not being able to kill or just not calcing, I don't find that to be an issue of crown being broken or able to flex these matchups but more of ok the crown user played their outs or the opponent did not calc (sometimes both).

Crown is not unpredictable in game, it does have strong core reliable matchups but the sets that DO try to cheese wins like speed or defense booster are not thrown onto structures outside of general luring. Alongside the fact that most of these lure sets are made to match up into less used mons, they will not be broadly seen unless someone has insane usage of something like chien pao.

I have not really mentioned the positives like flexibility in archetypes, but being a steel that is not just a dud into most electrics is a really nice asset for the tier, and the speed tier does keep other potential bum mons in line like drago or pecharunt.

Once I have gotten reqs I will be voting do not ban, and if you have any issues with my points above then start a discussion with me since most threads for 1v1 tiering tend to echo chamber and it's fairly boring when the point is to make arguments T_T.
Imperial said:
prim clicks icy wind and proceeds to die to specs
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252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 206-246 (61.1 - 72.9%) -- approx. 2HKO this is just the basic calc custap spread but prim will be able to encore you turn one then just win the next turn by clicking hydro
148+ SpA Torrent Primarina Hydro Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Crown: 340-402 (105.9 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
if they run icy wind they can and will outspeed after it since that is the only real niche / reason as of right now that it is used and they run less bulk which allows them to immediately be in torrent instead of needing the extra endure turn.
Imperial said:
shifu single idk if it can beat both specs and def wp in a single set? av eats steel beam and chople eats focus blast so its a setguess for shifu/crown?
Click to expand...
av shifu beats both sets consistently since weakness policy doesn't boost crown enough for it to ever kill, and urshifu can just click close combat against any variant and still win the next turn by either clicking sucker on specs variants or wicked blow on wp if you do not want to risk it being wp focus blast. (set that i have never seen run before)
 
DripLegend said:
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 206-246 (61.1 - 72.9%) -- approx. 2HKO this is just the basic calc custap spread but prim will be able to encore you turn one then just win the next turn by clicking hydro
148+ SpA Torrent Primarina Hydro Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Crown: 340-402 (105.9 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
if they run icy wind they can and will outspeed after it since that is the only real niche / reason as of right now that it is used and they run less bulk which allows them to immediately be in torrent instead of needing the extra endure turn.
Click to expand...
292 evs in offense/hp leaves 216 for speed and you commited nature, so you're 210 real spe? whereas crown is 324 real speed, at -1 thats 216 so its... still faster???

also half those rolls dont even proc torrent, im very confused
also doesn't get into custap range, but yes enduring will get you to beat it, but you're icy wind encore so u dont have endure....
 
Imperial said:
292 evs in offense/hp leaves 216 for speed and you commited nature, so you're 210 real spe? whereas crown is 324 real speed, at -1 thats 216 so its... still faster???

also half those rolls dont even proc torrent, im very confused
also doesn't get into custap range, but yes enduring will get you to beat it, but you're icy wind encore so u dont have endure....
Click to expand...
yeah I blanked and did custap for half the post and deg only said icy wind encore oops! But fast (max speed / 240) life orb prim (most common variant of fast icy wind encore prim rn to my knowledge) does win vs specs since the recoil will put you into torrent range anyway. There may need to be a few hp evs necessary to avoid random psyshock rolls but icy wind encore prim is a fairly consistent crown answer at the moment apologies for blanking completely on the one set mentioned LOLOL.
 
DripLegend said:
yeah I blanked and did custap for half the post and deg only said icy wind encore oops! But fast (max speed / 240) life orb prim (most common variant of fast icy wind encore prim rn to my knowledge) does win vs specs since the recoil will put you into torrent range anyway. There may need to be a few hp evs necessary to avoid random psyshock rolls but icy wind encore prim is a fairly consistent crown answer at the moment apologies for blanking completely on the one set mentioned LOLOL.
Click to expand...
np, and ty for lmk about av ursh
 
Every time we have a mon on the radar, people will pull some... let's say "interesting" movesets, to give more weight to their argument.

So let's see what was actually used in the World Cup, the latest completed competitive environment:

ReplaysItemMoves
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2245884394-kdu9zngcrmimd1mc6jj54b8o0ayat3rpwunrevealed, likely WPID, Tachyon (lost to Focus Energy Drago btw)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2246926488Booster SpATachyon
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2248432152-t7iw0srirjtxfnbe6mg22vf20qq7z88pwWPID, Stored Power
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2248440681-trk6h58qle7ucvtgb9dpqtoistv2rrcpwBooster SpAPsyshock
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2249742045Booster SpeedCM, Psychic
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2250191781-s9zhggm1pv5pdigorntckzk6snkp61fpwSpecsTachyon
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2250209864-2dr1iug748rdz3wo73nhx3hu63v1vjvpwunrevealed, likely WPID, Tachyon
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2250429153Booster SpATachyon Cutter
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2252867124Booster SpACM, Psyshock
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2253458853Booster SpATachyon
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2254582905Booster SpACM
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2256892457WPCM ID, Stored Power
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2256897106Booster SpAPsychic Noise, Focus Blast
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2257341241unrevealed, likely WPID
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2258568869Booster SpAFocus Blast, Tachyon Cutter
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2258643241Booster SpAPsyshock
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2258652570Booster SpACM, Psyshock
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2258689622-bwoq81o414orla4pjtekek3fyxvoj6dpwunrevealed, likely WPCM ID, Tachyon Stored Power
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2258924525Booster SpeedCM, Psychic Noise
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2258997456-5ksyak45ow4vxrad23htzdx5a5noy02pwunrevealed, likely SpecsPsychic
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2259148679WPCM Stored Power
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2259259285unrevealed, likely WPCM, Stored Power
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2263437487unrevealed, likely WPCM, Stored Power
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2263685603Booster SpACM
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2263719016Booster Speed (bulky)Focus Blast
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2267874248unrevealed, likely WPCM, Tachyon
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2271433649-iwtqckpzpdp52mch1hwkxf8gzo4j0tipw????
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen91v1-805971WPID, Tachyon
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen91v1-808193WPCM, Stored Power
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen91v1-808655????
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen91v1-808920unrevealed, likely WPCM
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen91v1-809314unrevealed, likely AVMetal Burst
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen91v1-809484WPCM, Tachyon
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen91v1-809489Booster SpATachyon

No booster Def, no booster SpD, no booster Atk (kek). Maybe they stayed on the bench? But then, why? Not good enough? Opportunity cost too high? Both?
It's predominantly booster SpA and WP, the same sets that you can find on ladder. A couple of Booster Speed and Specs. One instance of Metal Burst, kudos for daring it. The only slightly unusual set I noticed is a bulky booster Speed from Happysh, unfortunately we couldn't see what it does.

So yes, there is some sort of variety, but is it varied enough to be banworthy? Iron Crown has been in the meta for a while now, but the innovation doesn't strike me as wild.

Regarding Iron Crown's usage (as a lead) and winrate in the World Cup:
Code: 
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Leads                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Volcanion               |   61 |   6.93% |  50.82% |
| 2    | Primarina               |   43 |   4.89% |  37.21% |
| 3    | Iron Crown              |   36 |   4.09% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Iron Valiant            |   36 |   4.09% |  44.44% |
| 5    | Ursaluna                |   30 |   3.41% |  53.33% |
| 6    | Zapdos                  |   29 |   3.30% |  65.52% |
| 7    | Urshifu                 |   27 |   3.07% |  51.85% |
| 7    | Regidrago               |   27 |   3.07% |  48.15% |
| 9    | Raging Bolt             |   26 |   2.95% |  61.54% |
| 9    | Iron Hands              |   26 |   2.95% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Hoopa-Unbound           |   25 |   2.84% |  40.00% |
| 12   | Corviknight             |   24 |   2.73% |  45.83% |
| 13   | Volcarona               |   22 |   2.50% |  45.45% |
| 14   | Meowscarada             |   20 |   2.27% |  35.00% |
| 15   | Moltres-Galar           |   19 |   2.16% |  42.11% |
| 15   | Sylveon                 |   19 |   2.16% |  42.11% |
| 17   | Metagross               |   17 |   1.93% |  70.59% |
| 17   | Haxorus                 |   17 |   1.93% |  35.29% |
| 19   | Walking Wake            |   16 |   1.82% |  56.25% |
| 20   | Ogerpon-Wellspring      |   14 |   1.59% |  64.29% |
| 20   | Roaring Moon            |   14 |   1.59% |  64.29% |
| 20   | Great Tusk              |   14 |   1.59% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Ninetales-Alola         |   13 |   1.48% |  69.23% |
| 23   | Landorus-Therian        |   13 |   1.48% |  61.54% |
| 25   | Goodra-Hisui            |   12 |   1.36% |  41.67% |
| 25   | Spectrier               |   12 |   1.36% |  41.67% |
| 25   | Chien-Pao               |   12 |   1.36% |  33.33% |
| 28   | Sneasler                |   11 |   1.25% |  72.73% |
| 28   | Scizor                  |   11 |   1.25% |  72.73% |
| 28   | Manaphy                 |   11 |   1.25% |  72.73% |
| 31   | Donphan                 |   10 |   1.14% |  60.00% |
| 31   | Diancie                 |   10 |   1.14% |  40.00% |
Good stats, but nothing overwhelming. Looks fairly balanced to me.

Ultimately I do not care if it gets banned (I do enjoy rebuilding), but I am not convinced that Iron Crown is a problem in the current meta. It is extremely strong, but this is what S ranks are supposed to be.
 
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I voted no suspect, and I'll probably be voting DNB as well. I don't really think there's a lot of genuine justification for any ban on this pokemon.

Instead of repeating what DEG, Drip, and Crow Crumbs said I'll just respond to some loose threads.
Imperial said:
View attachment 705486

ok quick yapfest after getting reqs

this mon sucks. i hate him. he has like fifty different sets and they're all annoying in the builder and they somehow become even MORE annoying in play. spdef wp, physdef wp, speed booster, specs, def booster, av.... the list goes on, just feels so insane when im using it and so impossible when playing against it. feels like the only somewhat reliable checks are the fires (volcanion, voclarona and dirge. i have seen this guy beat some unspeakable things, like rmoon, hoopau and goltres. pls vote ban :pray:

(and yes i know i dont have to psot my proof but old habits die hard)
Click to expand...
I think Crown is definitely boosted by its ability to be EV'd in so many effective ways, but I don't think it's so overbearing in that regard that you should feel so restricted in teambuilder. Fire-types are always good. Dark-types are always good. Ground-types are less effective but the right set with the right pokemon should usually work. As for the funny sets. They're funny, and if you're really good yeah I'm sure you can definitely pick up a handful of wins on ladder and maybe a tour game or two, but like God does it feel bad to load a bad version of an S tier pokemon. Unboosted Crown does super mediocre damage, and you lose way more valuable matchups then whatever ones you do flip.
Imperial said:
i mean some of the examples are bad, but at least he IS justifying his points:

harcanine is terrible, but its not even beating crown anyway idt?
(loses to faster id -> procs wp and dies, or just blown up by specs focus blast [or the compgen steel beam special])
shifu single idk if it can beat both specs and def wp in a single set? av eats steel beam and chople eats focus blast so its a setguess for shifu/crown?
av luna gets idef'd and procs wp and loses.
cb luna gets idef into idef and dies to sp
guts can just die to specs focus blast and still has to play games but will usually win (its still the most uncommon of the three luna sets though)
chople bmursa loses to specs steel beam, and loses to wp clicking cm as it procs wp and dies (even without a boost u cant kill with ep -> vacuum wave)
scarf bmursa procs wp and dies 87.5% of the time
av bmursa lets it cm twice and gets brutally murdered by sp after proccing its wp.
registeel loses (specs focus blast hitting twice vs physdef OR giga boost war vs both sets and regi loses)
waterpon can be ev'd for and doesn't always win depending on its set and crown's set (a very common theme don'tcha think)
corviknight omegalol, this guy loses to so many sets (specs focus blast, specs volt switch, spa booster cm volt switch, spa booster cm focus blast )
chien pao loses to speed booster or def booster
prim clicks icy wind and proceeds to die to specs
cb & lo lando-t gets cooked by fast wp clicking id (or specs clikcing steel beam, tachyon is a roll to ko)
av lando-t gets idef'd on and then sp'd twice and dies

like in general crown's consistent counterplay is extremely limited, and while u can setguess, i personally just dont think the counterplay to it is reliable enough for me to want to keep it around.

also on the point of blaming drago. this is a crown suspect thread, not a drago one. drago failed its suspect and got voted dns on its latest vote, and while i dont think thats the end of action on drago, its not the focus of this, and its DEFINITELY not the reason crown is so strong. (also drago really isn't that restricting regardless, since 99% of teams are running a steel or fairy anyway, and it hasn't felt that strong in practice or the builder).

also i could totally have overlooked something here and feel free to ping me if i have, but i'll be voting ban as said earlier.

also can we plz be respectful thx guys
Click to expand...
Idk the context to this conversation but

:arcanine-hisui:
Scarf Arc-H is pretty consistent into WP Crown
252+ Atk Arcanine-Hisui Flare Blitz vs. 240 HP / 12 Def Iron Crown: 390-462 (102.3 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (fast or spd get kinda blown up)

252 HP / 108+ Def is your bench to live this hit btw or 72/240+ if you're just going pure defensive first
but then like you also need some SpA cause
+2 0 SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arcanine-Hisui: 306-362 (92.4 - 109.3%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO
so like
+2 92 SpA Iron Crown Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arcanine-Hisui: 331-390 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But this is a Arcanine-H thing because I've seen it all with this funny pokemon, and you may very well be running your defensive WP Crown into a Jolly Band Arc-H or maybe you just always beat the AV Arc-H. Really depends on what your opponent is thinking.

:urshifu:

252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Crown Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 184 SpD Assault Vest Urshifu: 292-344 (85.6 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Am I missing something here?

:ursaluna:

Yea av ursaluna loses to standard WP, but like band uhh

188+ Atk Choice Band Ursaluna Earthquake vs. +2 240 HP / 12 Def Iron Crown: 270-320 (70.8 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
188+ Atk Choice Band Ursaluna Earthquake vs. +4 240 HP / 12 Def Iron Crown: 182-216 (47.7 - 56.6%) -- 82% chance to 2HKO

This isn't really bulkable, nor like killable
+2 252 SpA Iron Crown Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 152 HP / 164 SpD Ursaluna: 435-513 (99 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

and

252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Crown Focus Blast vs. 168 HP / 144 SpD Ursaluna: 382-450 (86.2 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (50% chance to OHKO after burn damage)

My guts ursaluna has like a 50% chance of dying to specs, which is not great, especially when I could potentially make the play to just protect if I have it and win.

:Registeel:
Physdef by definition 50/50s vs Specs Crown. Spdef wins vs Specs.

WP vs Registeel is kinda interesting idk, maybe you know the sequence better than me but it seems set dependent.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2286370242
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2286371636

:corviknight:

Corvi taunts on 1

252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Crown Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Corviknight: 210-248 (52.5 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

maranga pops specs is reveal in damage calculation

corvi is slower and roosts

252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Crown Focus Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 16 SpD Corviknight: 141-166 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Specs Focus blast is pp stalled

Other sets win tho



Damn I thought there would be more pro-ban posts.

I'd know I'd really appreciate some to argue with
 
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