★ Ironic - Iron Crown Suspect

Status
Not open for further replies.
Just got reqs and for the first time in my tenure with 1v1 this is a clear cut Do Not Ban for me. There's nothing I can really add here that hasn't been said by people who can say it better than me, the mon does not feel oppressive in its versatility or raw power and niche-r sets (anything that isn't wp or spa booster honestly) have such heavy opportunity cost that I could not find them worth running.

One thing I will add that hasn't been mentioned is that I think the timing and reasoning on this test is horrible. Crown was mentioned only twice in the otr thread and once in metagame discussion (the metagame post being made by one of the posters in otr) and scored lower on the most recent survey than drago did on its. Despite this, a suspect was pushed forward by the council almost unanimously? Why? If we are now using suspect tests as the barometer of banworthiness and not endless forum discussion, why couldn't drago get the same treatment with nearly 5x the support from the playerbase? The suspect feels like a rushed job to make it seem like the council is actually listening to the community after the last fiasco.
 
Blanched said:
Just got reqs and for the first time in my tenure with 1v1 this is a clear cut Do Not Ban for me. There's nothing I can really add here that hasn't been said by people who can say it better than me, the mon does not feel oppressive in its versatility or raw power and niche-r sets (anything that isn't wp or spa booster honestly) have such heavy opportunity cost that I could not find them worth running.

One thing I will add that hasn't been mentioned is that I think the timing and reasoning on this test is horrible. Crown was mentioned only twice in the otr thread and once in metagame discussion (the metagame post being made by one of the posters in otr) and scored lower on the most recent survey than drago did on its. Despite this, a suspect was pushed forward by the council almost unanimously? Why? If we are now using suspect tests as the barometer of banworthiness and not endless forum discussion, why couldn't drago get the same treatment with nearly 5x the support from the playerbase? The suspect feels like a rushed job to make it seem like the council is actually listening to the community after the last fiasco.
Click to expand...
Speaking as an individual and not on behalf of the council as a whole

I understand your sentiment, and I wouldn't be surprised if this was something of an over-correction by others, where after seeing the response to a lack of action in general, they felt more pressured to do something.

I never explained my vote, being very tied up when the vote occurred, (but also I'm the lone dissenter so y'know), but strictly speaking I know I weighed what others had said (or more precisely the lack of what had been said on the forums), the latest survey result, and my own personal knowledge to determine whether this was an appropriate suspect or not. My personal opinion has been pretty "yea it's strong but not oppressive", and without a lot of argumentation beyond tour-hypothetical and low ladder usage sets, I wasn't really convinced that this suspect was necessary.

Iron Crown, however, is arguably one of the best if not the best pokemon in the current metagame, and as such I'm still going to engage with the whole process. All else I'll say is that if these are the standards that we're setting for Iron Crown having a suspect test, then I encourage my fellow council members to have this same openness for other pokemon in the future.
 
I have just gotten my reqs, I will be voting DNB. Here are my thoughts.

I have never found Iron Crown overwhelming when it comes to teambuilding, like in the sense where I have to run some niche move or Pokemon to beat it ( like how I am running U-Turn on Thundurus/Talonflame/Landorus-T to destroy Hoopa-U but that is a story for another time). My main flaws why Iron Crown is a great but not overwhelming comes down to three reasons.

1. It is very setup-reliant: Crown's best sets involve Iron Defense and Calm Mind, which requires a lot of boosts to keep Stored Power at a respectable. Most common items are Weakness Policy and Booster Energy, the former enables more boosts at the cost of being vulnerable to faster attackers like Iron Moth, Garchomp, and Meowscarada, while the latter enables the outspeed on those attackers but at the cost of needimg more boosts to get the KOEs. The lack of recovery doesn't do it any favor, because it can't recover off the damage to get consistent boosts. Not to mention being reliant on status moves makes it very vulnerable to Taunt and Encore users.

2. 4 Move-Slot Syndrome: Iron Crown really wants Tachyon Cutter, Psychic Move ( Usually Stored Power, but I've seen Psychic Noise and Psyshock as well ) and Focus Blast for Offense. It it drops Tachyon Cutter for Focus Blast, it significants worsens the Iron Valiant matchup and ruins the FEAR matchup. On the other hand, dropping Focus Blast means Meowscarada, Darkrai, and Greninja, live hits even at +1 and can KO back. Speaking of types...

3. Steel/Psychic is a poor attacking combo: Steel/Psychic is not a very hard combination to resist, all Steel types and certain Pokemon and Greninja resist both combinations, while high bulk Pokemon like Hoopa-U, Volcarona, Galarian Moltres resist one and have the bulk to take the other. Not to mention speed tier is awkward if not using Booster Energy, allowing Pokemon like Greninja, Volcarona, Spectrier, Garchomp, Iron Moth to KO non-booster sets easily. Faster disruptive Pokemon like Encore Ogerpon-W and Eerie Impulse Zapdos can also stall Iron Crown before it has a chance to set up even Crown has a speed boost for the latter.

If Steel hadn't been nerfed, I would probably be voting ban, but I am not for the reasons mentioned above, and you should vote DNB too!
 
DreamPrince said:
I have just gotten my reqs, I will be voting DNB. Here are my thoughts.

I have never found Iron Crown overwhelming when it comes to teambuilding, like in the sense where I have to run some niche move or Pokemon to beat it ( like how I am running U-Turn on Thundurus/Talonflame/Landorus-T to destroy Hoopa-U but that is a story for another time). My main flaws why Iron Crown is a great but not overwhelming comes down to three reasons.

1. It is very setup-reliant: Crown's best sets involve Iron Defense and Calm Mind, which requires a lot of boosts to keep Stored Power at a respectable. Most common items are Weakness Policy and Booster Energy, the former enables more boosts at the cost of being vulnerable to faster attackers like Iron Moth, Garchomp, and Meowscarada, while the latter enables the outspeed on those attackers but at the cost of needimg more boosts to get the KOEs. The lack of recovery doesn't do it any favor, because it can't recover off the damage to get consistent boosts. Not to mention being reliant on status moves makes it very vulnerable to Taunt and Encore users.

2. 4 Move-Slot Syndrome: Iron Crown really wants Tachyon Cutter, Psychic Move ( Usually Stored Power, but I've seen Psychic Noise and Psyshock as well ) and Focus Blast for Offense. It it drops Tachyon Cutter for Focus Blast, it significants worsens the Iron Valiant matchup and ruins the FEAR matchup. On the other hand, dropping Focus Blast means Meowscarada, Darkrai, and Greninja, live hits even at +1 and can KO back. Speaking of types...

3. Steel/Psychic is a poor attacking combo: Steel/Psychic is not a very hard combination to resist, all Steel types and certain Pokemon and Greninja resist both combinations, while high bulk Pokemon like Hoopa-U, Volcarona, Galarian Moltres resist one and have the bulk to take the other. Not to mention speed tier is awkward if not using Booster Energy, allowing Pokemon like Greninja, Volcarona, Spectrier, Garchomp, Iron Moth to KO non-booster sets easily. Faster disruptive Pokemon like Encore Ogerpon-W and Eerie Impulse Zapdos can also stall Iron Crown before it has a chance to set up even Crown has a speed boost for the latter.

If Steel hadn't been nerfed, I would probably be voting ban, but I am not for the reasons mentioned above, and you should vote DNB too!
Click to expand...
wait ur telling me the psychic type loses to the fast offensive dark types (mind blown)
crown doesnt suffer from four slot syndrome bc u are never running focus blast on set up wp or sometimes ur not even running set up moves bc u can run specs or spa booster
I dont know where u got the idea that it needs set up moves it has 122 base spa
also steel/psychic typing allows it to beat both fairy and fighting which is not something many good mons can do so I wouldnt say thats a poor attacking type.
 
i dont really know what I wanna say but im gonna say it so I dont forget
if crown is getting voted dnb (which seems to be whats going to happen) then I think we should unban other mons (or at least sus test them) since some of these mons have been banned for 2 dlcs and havent been given a chance and it would be really nice if I had gholdengo or chi yu to beat this thing and maybe we can unban arch too bc hes super cool but prob not but maybe it would be cool



In reality what makes crown and chi yu any different. Crown has way more diversity, way better typing, better stat spread.
 
Last edited:
Aco2PlaysShowdown said:
i dont really know what I wanna say but im gonna say it so I dont forget
if crown is getting voted dnb (which seems to be whats going to happen) then I think we should unban other mons (or at least sus test them) since some of these mons have been banned for 2 dlcs and havent been given a chance and it would be really nice if I had gholdengo or chi yu to beat this thing and maybe we can unban arch too bc hes super cool but prob not but maybe it would be cool



In reality what makes crown and chi yu any different. Crown has way more diversity, way better typing, better stat spread.
Click to expand...

Please read any old thread about a banned mon before you bring it up.
Iron Crown loses a lot more matchups by being defense booster or physical LO than Chi-Yu did by going AV or WP. The thing could cover the entire meta with very viable sets, that maintained core matchups.
Gholdengo was even worse. Good as Gold means you cant status, taunt or encore it. Again, unlike crown, and like Chi-Yu it could start checking its checks without losing its best matchups. This is not even close to true for crown. Not only is it not difficult to find a good, consistent check for Crown on your team, niche sets have to sacrifice a lot more than Ghold did by going between Scarf, Specs and Weakness Policy.

Crown does not have "way more diversity", you just made a bunch of fake sets. Stop using unsets as an argument. I could make a pokepaste full of awful meowscarada sets that beat 1 mon each but that wouldn't make it a bannable mon.

Aco2PlaysShowdown said:
I dont know where u got the idea that it needs set up moves it has 122 base spa
Click to expand...

https://calc.pokemonshowdown.com/

enjoy
 
lost heros said:
Speaking as an individual and not on behalf of the council as a whole

I understand your sentiment, and I wouldn't be surprised if this was something of an over-correction by others, where after seeing the response to a lack of action in general, they felt more pressured to do something.
Click to expand...

If the council is taking action due to some arbitrary pressure to take action, instead of taking action because of community support or obviously broken threats, it's not going to be a functional path for future tiering.
To me, the obvious course of action, after the drago suspect vote resulted in a Tie (Not a majority DNS!), seems to be to bring it forward to the community. OTR threads and metagame discussion are fine as methods of collecting data but Regidrago should have been on a survey.

If we can't have a suspect for a mon with much discussion around it, atleast create a way to collect information about opinions en-masse. Removing it from a survey seems like a cheap deflection strategy to avoid further backlash from blocking a drago suspect due to a Tie vote, as does this Iron Crown suspect. It would have made sense if the community was used as a tiebreaker, but instead we are wasting time suspecting a mon with three whole posts about it. You cannot, in good faith, say that Iron Crown is the mon the community wanted a suspect for after intentionally excluding a mon that people thoroughly discussed. If certain parts of the community's opinion is not only being ignored, but actively shut out, then the tier does not have a great future.
 
Mentality said:
Please read any old thread about a banned mon before you bring it up.
Iron Crown loses a lot more matchups by being defense booster or physical LO than Chi-Yu did by going AV or WP. The thing could cover the entire meta with very viable sets, that maintained core matchups.
Gholdengo was even worse. Good as Gold means you cant status, taunt or encore it. Again, unlike crown, and like Chi-Yu it could start checking its checks without losing its best matchups. This is not even close to true for crown. Not only is it not difficult to find a good, consistent check for Crown on your team, niche sets have to sacrifice a lot more than Ghold did by going between Scarf, Specs and Weakness Policy.

Crown does not have "way more diversity", you just made a bunch of fake sets. Stop using unsets as an argument. I could make a pokepaste full of awful meowscarada sets that beat 1 mon each but that wouldn't make it a bannable mon.



https://calc.pokemonshowdown.com/

enjoy
Click to expand...
sure u could run av and risk losing to thinks like ursa bloodmoon while still not beating strong fightings like speed tusk/ the shifus and lose to iron moth
sure u could run snarl and risk losing to any bulky phys attacker or any fast physical attacker
sure u could run wisp and lose to bulky spa
sure u can run scarf/specs but every attacker can run scarf/band or specs its not game breaking
some of these mons havent been tested in 2 years and the meta has changed alot since then with many new mons.
for reference nalei, smely, and rosa (yikes) were on council when this thing was banned
this is like if an ominipotent figure had to build a 1v1 team out of species on earth and looked at humans 200k years ago and decided they were worthless and never used them again even as we evolved and gained new technologies (idk if this analogy makes sense ngl but I thought it was clever)
and you didnt even give a reason why crown cant run specs when mons like sylveon/landorus/greninja run boosting items w worse spa
 
Aco2PlaysShowdown said:
sure u could run av and risk losing to thinks like ursa bloodmoon while still not beating strong fightings like speed tusk/ the shifus and lose to iron moth
sure u could run snarl and risk losing to any bulky phys attacker or any fast physical attacker
sure u could run wisp and lose to bulky spa
sure u can run scarf/specs but every attacker can run scarf/band or specs its not game breaking
some of these mons havent been tested in 2 years and the meta has changed alot since then with many new mons.
for reference nalei, smely, and rosa (yikes) were on council when this thing was banned
this is like if an ominipotent figure had to build a 1v1 team out of species on earth and looked at humans 200k years ago and decided they were worthless and never used them again even as we evolved and gained new technologies (idk if this analogy makes sense ngl but I thought it was clever)
and you didnt even give a reason why crown cant run specs when mons like sylveon/landorus/greninja run boosting items w worse spa
Click to expand...
If you’re that pressed for a retest just wait for the Ubers project to feature the mons you are referencing, if anything use the metagame discussion thread instead of derailing the suspect thread fnr.
 
making a post since bums will not ladder n get reqs so this mon has an actual chance of being banned
this shit is like the most normal 1v1 s tier like idk why set diversity is such a scary concept(especially when u only really have speed, wp, spatk, maybe av) to worry about and like if you cant setguess at least semi consistently thats highkey a skill issue
like compared to other semi-recently banned pokemon like gouging crown is not nearly as scary
the problem w goug wasnt that u could run all kinds of niche sets like spdef booster or noble roar
the problem was u ran attack booster and changed around evs and moves to beat whatever u wanted to beat most of the time bc u didnt have to sacrifice much at all
crown cannot do that bc even running its best sets like wp u will just lose to a lot of shit
If you're legitimately worried about like tournament unsets like band x scissor/specs steel beam like crown gives up so fucking much for that like choice iron crown literally loses to valiant!! and ninetales!! like why is my steel losing to the best fairies in the metagame
Besides solid checks alr listed like guts ursa, hoopa(w the slightest amt of bulk), sd landot(if i get specs steel beamed idk i just got outplayed like go next lol), goltres, volc, av shifu single, etc, crown also just like can lose to a bunch of common mons (prim, leech or just reg oger, slower wp can straight up just like lose to urshifu rapid, av meta usually just wins, non av/spatk dies vs scarfcress, taunt bolt)
this mon is super reliant on getting boosts and feels v weak w/o it or a boosting item
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2182374090-ki3umoz5igjv1c2fliey09t59gk04vepw (this shit lost to lorb goodra!!! what da hell)
 
bo_bobson27 said:
RADU bern Murm neomon Lumii LongRat RTM Indi01 fake tom numbers crow crumbs BigChuchu Kala chasmah Nuxl Kaif DripLegend
get reqs :)
Click to expand...
1738006399184.gif

The numbers represent hours spent on 1v1 ladder
 
bo_bobson27 said:
RADU bern Murm neomon Lumii LongRat RTM Indi01 fake tom numbers crow crumbs BigChuchu Kala chasmah Nuxl Kaif DripLegend
get reqs :)
Click to expand...
1738215953117.png

just did!

now for the moment you've all been waiting for...

This mon's fine. i don't think i can say anything that hasn't been said, i pretty much wanted a suspect because i wanted to see people experiment with the mon and see if something came out of it, alas nothing has been found. the mon isn't one-dimensional but at the same time it's not overbearing, its counters are few and far between, yes, but it needs to be stretched thin. as an example that Blanched brought up in meta discussion in the discord, you need specifically Focus Blast and SpA Booster for Goodra-Hisui (and also for it to hit twice which is like, yeah it's Focus Blast it's not gonna happen often, CB Earthquake from it is a 2HKO while Focus Blast is also a 2HKO so 49% chance good luck!), and that's a lot of opportunity cost you're wasting for just one pokemon, you'd rather be using stuff like WP to handle stuff like some of the ground types like CB Lando if you're faster or Donphan if you're invested in special attack, there's a lot to costumize but at the same time there's a lot of opportunity cost when it comes to EVs, moves, etc.

there's really no much else to say, cuz like, again, everything else has been said, but i thought i might as well share my opinion because there is a council i am a part of so yeah. long story short i'll be voting DNB on Iron Crown.
LongRat said:
View attachment 708437
The numbers represent hours spent on 1v1 ladder
Click to expand...
also i'd like to say something about this.
ladder is genuinely awful. screw cteamers, god i hope LT is better or i get to host it and i hope any future suspects get better as well.

now go get reqs you have like 24 hours LongRat also MattC (Banned) :)
 
The suspect deadline has passed and voting has opened. You can now vote on the Suspect Page. Cast your vote for Iron Crown - Ban or Iron Crown - Do Not Ban. You do not get to change your vote, so make sure you click the right one.

bern
DEG
bo_bobson27
Bomb21XD
Call me PK
DreamPrince
Blanched
King Griffin
delemon
lost heros
Nunnbetter
UwU1v1
happysh
recti
Aco2PlaysShowdown
deddd
Mentality
Imperial
clerica

Thanks very much for participating in the suspect process, I'll be locking this thread and get back to you with the results once they're available.
 
Voting has reached a conclusion

Despite there still being time until the voting deadline, with the current number of votes it is impossible for Iron Crown to reach the 60% super majority needed for a ban. As such, Iron Crown will remain unbanned.
  • Iron Crown - Ban (4/14 = 28.57%)
  • Iron Crown - Do Not Ban (10/14 = 71.43%)
  • Votes remaining: 5
  • Max ban%: 9/19 (47%)

Voting will remain open until sunday (48 hours after suspect deadline)
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top