Announcement Sunshine Baby - Heat Rock Suspect

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"Back seat, driving with my sunshine baby
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SV LC has decided to suspect Heat Rock.

While the best option to tier around Sun has been hotly debated across past generations, we’ve chosen to suspect Heat Rock instead of Chlorophyll — this is because of the extra turns of Sun that Heat Rock provides make Sun more difficult to stall out with defensive checks, especially when Sun sweepers often do enough damage to trade favorably. Given the inherent strength of Fire-types even outside of Sun, action solely targeting Bulbasaur seemed insufficient, too. Sun is a classic offensive archetype that has emerged with consistency in every LC generation since Pokemon Black and White introduced auto-Sun setting via Vulpix's Drought. The LC community has deemed Sun overwhelming in one generation after another, and Vulpix sits banned in a majority of them, including SV LC. In one of the two exceptions, SS LC, Vulpix was freed from tiering jail by way of banning the Chlorophyll sweepers instead because of the strength of manual Sunny Day teams (and, as veterans of the post-Vullaby ban meta can tell you, Vulpix Sun teams returned with a force without any need for the the Grass-types). For the second generation in a row, manual Sunny Day hyper-offense has become a powerful and potentially problematic team structure, despite it taking time to emerge as such.

Sun hyper-offense has risen in earnest since the Voltorb-Hisui ban and the beginning of the LCBC tournament. As in other generations, Sun’s strength derives from the combination of fast dangerous Weather Ball Chlorophyll sweepers like Bulbasaur and strong STAB-move-spamming Fire-types like Torchic and Growlithe-Hisui. Experimentation with Sun sixes is still afoot, but the common elements tend to be the reliable hazard lead and Sun-setting combination of Diglett-Alola and Prankster Shroodle, Bulbasaur, at least one strong Fire-type, and a strong secondary sweeper that can play the clean-up role after Sun, such as Shellder or Bulk Up Timburr. The core danger of Sun teams is how they force opponents to Terastallize defensively as not be swept by Bulbasaur and then abuse that lack of defensive flexibility thereafter. Defensive Tera Dragon has made a return, but those Pokemon often struggle to check Sludge Bomb Bulbasaur, and Shellder is particularly excellent at punishing this specific Tera. Add in Bulbasaur healing off chip damage with Growth-boosted Giga Drain and the sheer strength of Sun-boosted Fire-types, which can often brute-force their way through resists, and Sun becomes extremely constraining both in the teambuilder and in-game.

Despite Sun's strengths, it is not a flawless strategy, and therefore comes with some innate weaknesses. As discussed previously, Sun's team structure is quite linear and has little room for customization. As such, it's not entirely impossible for standard teams to adapt to a more Sun-centric metagame if players know exactly what to expect. However, how healthy, and how metagame warping will this required adaptation be? These are the questions we hope to find answers to in this Heat Rock suspect test, and we encourage anyone who has an opinion to both participate in discussion and voting.

Editing credit goes to kythr

...

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:


  • Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in LC before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played LC before the test, full stop.)
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
  • Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, Coconut, or a staff member.
  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me/Coconut or post here!

NEW
The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2800 with a B-value of 7.

The suspect test will be ending on Sunday, February 2nd at 10:59 pm (GMT -4). Have fun laddering!

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I'll be voting ban. The counterplay to Sun is very tough and borderline impossible to answer without greatly sacrificing your other matchups. Even then if you prep for sun, it takes the odds of you losing from like 100% to 60%. I feel like every time I watch this playstle, even in games where it really has no serious right to win, it just wins.

Heres a short list of replays and my personal opinions on all of them too
LCBC
Bleahey vs Feen - Bleahey won this game but it is almost certainly a win for sun. Feen choked this p hard vs the Glimmet with Bulbasaur. 100% win
Sufys vs Mok3s - Sun rolling over a very standard team despite a strong lead koing both a sun setter and Torchic. Great example of sun just blowing past its counters long-term too
DC vs vooper - Good techs on voopers side hitting, but definently shouldn't be the norm. First real loss though
Juan vs ghost - Another example of sun just muscling through its teams checks easily. Bulbasaur 1v1ing Chespin and forcing a KO on Mareanie secured this pretty easily in Juan's favor
Django vs Corckscrew - Sun once again winning pretty easily. Django outplayed early game but was never really been improved. Sun Timbur might be kinda epic
Sufys vs Always Edgy - Nah Sun beat Meowth LMAOO. Sufys got lucky this game but he also made a bunch of misplays that if didn't happen he just won this pretty easily. Ex. not Giga Draining the mudbray that Edgy needs.
Gawain vs Nashrock - Gawain didn't play this great and definently pulled a poor matchup. This matches up fine-ish into literally anything else though. I'd say good example of sun being Restricting
Fille vs BIG TONY 2014 - Fille kinda just won this one. I don't really have any input from this. Rare sun flop
Teamballo
Hacker vs MichaelDerBeste - I'd say I was in pretty good control of this game and was just able to muscle through with my breakers despite a poor somehow mf Salandit of all things matchup. Pretty easy sun win
Envy vs PigWarrior - Shellder masterclass lmfao but there was no way for Envy's perfectly reasonable team to beat Shellder + Bulbasaur after Shellder forcing tera early game. Very dominant win

ban sun please and drifting while at it. i hope everyone has a good time laddering !
 
Just thought I would share, sun got me a win in the Duraladon cup without even using Duraladon. This was long before anyone was using sun, crazy to see how it has exploded recently.

Link

That being said, I currently don’t like the idea of banning heat rock. I would be more open to suspecting something else related to sun that makes it troublesome like chlorophyll. From what I've been reading, it seems that bulbasaur is a much bigger problem than other sun threats like charmander, cyndaquil, or growlithe. From my experience playing with sun this also feels to be the case.

Banning heat rock would make sun completely unviable. There is historical data (especially from SM and SS) where lower tiers banned heat rock or damp rock and it completely killed the weather strategies. This tier already struggles a lot with meta diversity, as many of the mons available in the tier are straight up bad, and I think banning heat rock is not to correct approach to deal with sun.

That being said I have not been as active in this tier the past couple months, so my opinion could easily change and I also may not even make reqs as I haven’t been as active which would mean none of this rambling matters anyways.
 
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I do not think Sun/Heat Rock is uncompetitive. I do think however, that it will be banned anyways because people including myself do not like playing against it.

In most of the recent replays Sun looks amazing in, it is because player error. Whether it’s their piloting during the battle, the team choice made before the battle starts, or just simply not knowing the matchup well, Sun only looks as good as it does to the failures of the people going against it. When looking at the same replays that Hacker listed, here are the conclusions I came to:
Bleahey vs Feen - I don't think Bleahey played great. He should have lost but feen choked the endgame.
Sufys vs Mok3s - Mok3s chokes the game and loses because of it.
DC vs vooper - DC burnt Tera early for the quick dopamine hit of OHKOing Vullaby, and proceeded to lose to Mareanie.
Juan vs ghost - Ghost clicked bad on Turns 3 and 4 to lose momentum and then loses the game since he somehow has nothing for Bulbasaur with 5 mons alive and Tera. JuanSG is that good of a player that even just getting a couple of turns wrong can lead to losing.
Django vs Corckscrew - Django played better in the beginning and Corck ran had a terrible Tera, but Corck is still making enough progress through his bad clicks that he’s able to win eventually.
Sufys vs Always Edgy - If I was Sufys in this game, multiple people would have called me lucky and bad. Most people would win their game with this kind of fortune regardless of the team.
Gawain vs Nashrock - Gawain brought a not great-looking team IMO and also got most turns wrong. Bringing bad and playing bad leads to losing.
Fille vs BIG TONY 2014 - How most Sun games should be going against good players. Fille knows the matchup since the Sun gameplan has not changed much in SV, he makes better clicks than his opponent, and he isn’t hampered by having a bad team.
Teamballo
Hacker vs MichaelDerBeste - Michael just brought a team that loses to Torchic.
Envy vs PigWarrior - Envy commits an early Tera that ends ups making him lose to Pig’s Shellder. With the threat of Tera and Shellder in the back, Envy probably shouldn’t be Teraing his Mienfoo Turn 4.

Sun reminds me of Rain and Snow from our previous metas, where people lost to it a lot for brief periods of time before players learnt the matchup and stopped losing to it. I believe that same will happen again for Sun where the teams and players will get better in order to not lose to it. It’s a bit sad that out of all the things that could have been suspected it’s Sun, but I won’t miss the archetype when it gets banned.
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Sun reminds me of Rain and Snow from our previous metas, where people lost to it a lot for brief periods of time before players learnt the matchup and stopped losing to it. I believe that same will happen again for Sun where the teams and players will get better in order to not lose to it.
i really disagree with this portion through actively playing against it on ladder. as you, the player adjust on how to beat sun it can adjust on hwo to beat you. what set suns apart from other stuff that could be suspected is that while being a fairly linear strategy theres a lot of room for optimization for both parties
Sufys vs Mok3s - Mok3s chokes the game and loses because of it.
This is simplified too much. If Sufys Weather Balls the Mienfoo and it dies, we just lose. Also, Hisuian Growlithe and Timburr in this endgame are terrifying. When we tera the Foongus to beat Growlithe, Bulk Up Timburr just wins from there. The lines taken clearly weren't optimal as seen by how the game went, however its not as simple as you make it seem.
DC vs vooper - DC burnt Tera early for the quick dopamine hit of OHKOing Vullaby, and proceeded to lose to Mareanie.
Player objectively misplaying doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things
Juan vs ghost - Ghost clicked bad on Turns 3 and 4 to lose momentum and then loses the game since he somehow has nothing for Bulbasaur with 5 mons alive and Tera. JuanSG is that good of a player that even just getting a couple of turns wrong can lead to losing.
I certainly wouldn't call trying to prevent Sun from going up bad clicks. Also, Juan is great at this tier but what skill did he show this game LOL
Django vs Corckscrew - Django played better in the beginning and Corck ran had a terrible Tera, but Corck is still making enough progress through his bad clicks that he’s able to win eventually.
Getting outplayed and "playing worse" and still winning doesn't really scream competitive to me. Sun minimizes the better player winning
Sufys vs Always Edgy - If I was Sufys in this game, multiple people would have called me lucky and bad. Most people would win their game with this kind of fortune regardless of the team.
Optimal clicks don't require needing fortune to win this game. The Weather Ball crit was really bad for Edgy, but if you Weather Ball because you don't need Bulbasaur dead anyways first it will just die anyways. HJK miss was pretty bad too but I think trying to check Timburr and Torchic in this endgame is impossible
Fille vs BIG TONY 2014 - How most Sun games should be going against good players. Fille knows the matchup since the Sun gameplan has not changed much in SV, he makes better clicks than his opponent, and he isn’t hampered by having a bad team.
Turn two Fille just coinflips his Magby dying. This could have gone very south very fast. Beyond that, I don't really like how BIG TONY played this game. Bulbasaur is Sun's greatest threat and could have had a chance at winning late game with Sun up. Especially if Tony traded his Torchic for Mudbray earlier in the game. Definently isn't like a completed game then and there but this does get really dangerous really fast
Envy vs PigWarrior - Envy commits an early Tera that ends ups making him lose to Pig’s Shellder. With the threat of Tera and Shellder in the back, Envy probably shouldn’t be Teraing his Mienfoo Turn 4.
What do you do when Growlithe Flare Blit's through your entire team. The only thing is Shellos which takes a ton in the Sun and just allows Bulbasaur to growth and claim a bunch. You will have to Tera and lose to shellder eventually
even if you will be voting to ban sun i wanted to set the record straight on on these games and my overall opinions. i too, will not miss sun if it gets banned
 
i really disagree with this portion through actively playing against it on ladder. as you, the player adjust on how to beat sun it can adjust on hwo to beat you. what set suns apart from other stuff that could be suspected is that while being a fairly linear strategy theres a lot of room for optimization for both parties
This is simplified too much. If Sufys Weather Balls the Mienfoo and it dies, we just lose. Also, Hisuian Growlithe and Timburr in this endgame are terrifying. When we tera the Foongus to beat Growlithe, Bulk Up Timburr just wins from there. The lines taken clearly weren't optimal as seen by how the game went, however its not as simple as you make it seem.

Player objectively misplaying doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things

I certainly wouldn't call trying to prevent Sun from going up bad clicks. Also, Juan is great at this tier but what skill did he show this game LOL

Getting outplayed and "playing worse" and still winning doesn't really scream competitive to me. Sun minimizes the better player winning

Optimal clicks don't require needing fortune to win this game. The Weather Ball crit was really bad for Edgy, but if you Weather Ball because you don't need Bulbasaur dead anyways first it will just die anyways. HJK miss was pretty bad too but I think trying to check Timburr and Torchic in this endgame is impossible

Turn two Fille just coinflips his Magby dying. This could have gone very south very fast. Beyond that, I don't really like how BIG TONY played this game. Bulbasaur is Sun's greatest threat and could have had a chance at winning late game with Sun up. Especially if Tony traded his Torchic for Mudbray earlier in the game. Definently isn't like a completed game then and there but this does get really dangerous really fast

What do you do when Growlithe Flare Blit's through your entire team. The only thing is Shellos which takes a ton in the Sun and just allows Bulbasaur to growth and claim a bunch. You will have to Tera and lose to shellder eventually
even if you will be voting to ban sun i wanted to set the record straight on on these games and my overall opinions. i too, will not miss sun if it gets banned

To add some context to my game, Big Tony straight up threw a 100% MU out the window. I ran through some games with Vooper afterwards and he basically found a sequence to guarantee a win essentially from turn 1, despite me having 3 fat mons and a natural water type and foongus and goth for after sun.
 
I spoke about this yesterday but heres my opinion without having to scroll through discord

I think sun is a bad archetype but its more of a symptom then a core issue and banning helps in no way to solve the core issue:

TERA ENABLES OFFENSE A LOT AT LVL 5

Basically its often more efficient in this format to use tera to strike at the heart of the opponents team, either by nuking something with tera blast or tera stab enhanced move, shifting ur defensive profile to set up a sweep or using a defensive tera to bait an important pokemon into commiting for a ''safe'' attack and hitting it for big damage.

This is an issue because imo there is very limited safe and reliable ways of dealing with this, the best defense is a good offense often time, but having small game with a mechanic that provides big swings inbeded into it is a recipe for disaster.

Sun itself has 2 things that make it good imo

1. safe spammable attacks with few natural resistances (the fire type boosted by sun)

2. multiple fast options (bulba, torchic, magby too, scarf dog)

It isnt an outlier, its the logical endpoint of a tera metagame, ur never getting more safe spammable moves and more speed then with sun.

That being said, with sun gone u just revert back to the same principal with a different set of pokemon


ABOUT LITTLE CUP IN GENERAL


I have said my piece about this having the same cookie cutter mon as always, but i think were kinda trying to put a square in a circle shaped hole here. TBH this isnt really the councils fault, i get we have to work with what gamefreak gives us, but atm the tier is neither intersting nor constistent nor fun (imo). I think theres a clear lack of vision here. The good ''safe'' options for balance are hyper restricted and basically always fold to the wrong threat.

Idea 1:

U ban tera. Simple as that. the whole thing, not just tera blast. This will result is something that is likely more boring then what we have atm, but it would be more competitive imo and more reliable.


Idea 2 (my personal favorite):

Ive been told lc was ''supposed to be an offensive fast paced tier''. Good, then embrace that, if ur gonna have an issue with any new offense that pops up and need to ban them all to keep balance somewhat relevant, then dont bother trying to force the same tier as always.

The goal in this timeline is to accept that balance might not be fully functionning given the mechanics of the tier and say :

''If you cant make offense fair with balance, you at least try to give the player multiple different flavors of offense''

Veil, webs, maybe some other fun unbans! The tier might still be a swingy, but it would at least have a sense of identity, it would probably be much more expressive and it would be a lot of dynamic imo. I think OU is a good reference tier, as gen 9 ou clearly has a much higher power level then older gens and i think thats something we should be more open too.
 
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