Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Alternator said:
In addition to what DaddyBuzzwole said, there's a second factor, one which hazard uptime factors into: Life Orb is only worthwhile if it lowers the number of attacks you need to kill the enemy.

When your base damage is 40% to an enemy, Life Orb turns a 3HKO into a 2HKO. When your base damage is 60%, it turns a 2HKO at +1 into an OHKO at +1. You're taking less damage from Life Orb recoil than you would from taking an extra attack, so the item is beneficial. It's also good on a cleaner or revenge killer, where you don't know how much damage you'll need, and so more is better; needlessly taking Life Orb recoil when it wasn't required is far less punishing than leaving the enemy alive.

However, if hazards are everywhere, then any opponent not wearing HDB is going to take hazard damage and get OHKO'd at +1 anyway, or the 2HKO from a 40% hit. In that situation, all you're doing is costing yourself an extra 10% health on each attack, on top of being vulnerable to the opponent's entry hazards. The Life Orb isn't just useless, it's actually a liability.

As offensive power creep increases, there are fewer situations where the enemy would survive in the first place, which also makes Life Orb a useless item - dead from a 105% roll is the same as from a 135% roll, and between increasingly min-maxed stat spreads, wider access to boosting moves, and items like Booster Energy, those scenarios are increasingly common.

Life Orb still has its niche, but mons that appreciate it are less common. It's to the point where the item is starting to benefit from surprise value, scoring unexpected KOs.
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Taking this into account, would you say that Expert Belt has more value with Life Orb being less practical? It lacks the recoil and might bluff your item once in a while. Or is that wishful thinking on my part and Darkrai and Deoxys-Speed are the exception to the "rule", rather than the norm?
 
Cyber-DJ said:
Taking this into account, would you say that Expert Belt has more value with Life Orb being less practical? It lacks the recoil and might bluff your item once in a while. Or is that wishful thinking on my part and Darkrai and Deoxys-Speed are the exception to the "rule", rather than the norm?
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Deo-S runs life orb almost out of necessity because its base stats are lacking- it needs life orb to have a lot of offensive presence

Rai has strayed away from using LO sets, oftentimes using boots or lefties for the increased longevity allowing rai to setup or spread damage more efficiently

deo-s is definitely one of the few exceptions to this, rai less so as it shifts to more longevity-based items
 
Yes, but no.

Expert Belt is a great item when it works, but whether it works is heavily reliant on the set, so it all but requires three attacks and massively benefits from an all out attacker set. You want to specifically be going for super effective coverage rather than neutral coverage, so 'safe' moves like Knock Off and U-Turn greatly reduce the item's value since you're usually clicking them into a neutral target, or even a resistant one, there's a lot of good mons that will resist Dark and half of OU resists Bug.

On the other hand, if you're Darkrai running the AoA set, Dark/Poison/Fighting/Ice hits most of the metagame for super effective damage, and Expert Belt will be active all the time, and Deoxys-S is similar. Anything that runs four attacks is likely a viable user of the item.

So yes it helps, as potential users of Expert Belt would probably have just slapped on Life Orb in past gens, but no it's not really making the item better, because it's still too situational to just slap on most sets.
 
Cyber-DJ said:
Taking this into account, would you say that Expert Belt has more value with Life Orb being less practical? It lacks the recoil and might bluff your item once in a while. Or is that wishful thinking on my part and Darkrai and Deoxys-Speed are the exception to the "rule", rather than the norm?
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It has more value than Life Orb for sure but there's an opportunity cost to running it. The extra breaking power is nice in certain matchups but in matchups where the boost doesn't matter, you effectively don't have an item. Darkrai likes the extra breaking power into fat teams, but if it comes at the cost of being chipped by hazards by those same teams, then boots is more valuable because it also helps into other matchups. Valiant giving up Booster Speed makes it worse into offense when it's no longer out speeding everything. Zama has the same problem as Darkrai in that Leftovers, Boots, Chesto, etc all give it more consistent utility than just the matchups where belt's boost matters. Expert Belt has always been kinda unexplored but that's almost by design; an item that only functions in specific cases is of course only used in specific cases. It's up to players to decide whether those cases outweigh the more general utility that you get from more general items.
 
One more aspect of life orb I haven't seen brought up yet is how prevalent strong priority is this gen. In previous gens, you could get chunked to 50% while setting up and life orb could still sweep.

In this gen, every team will have multiple strong priority options you're trying to stay out of range of for your sweep and life orb will sabotage that.

Tera means the dragon dancers will always have a free turn to set up, so you can't revenge kill with speed anymore, it has to be with priority. I recently cut Venusaur from my sun team because 600 speed is just too slow in this meta.
 
Where can I read about why suspect reqs were made harder? I’ve seen the post annoying the change, but not the discussion leading up to it.
 
BobbyHill said:
Where can I read about why suspect reqs were made harder? I’ve seen the post annoying the change, but not the discussion leading up to it.
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3d

Partially Implemented Thread 'SV OU Suspect Reform'

So as finch alluded to in the mess of a kyurem suspect thread, there are ongoing discussions about changing voting reqs and I would like to weigh in with a proposal: adding 2 gxe points to the current system, allowing reqs to overlap and possibly implementing a game & alt maximum.

The gxe requirement seems most logical and clean cut to me. Using Excel I found out that the average GXE was about 78.3% on the top500 ladder. Keep in mind lots of people are playing casually, memeing, and in general clicking hard and the average is still 78.3%. Yes there are high outliers in the high 80s low...
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Finchinator said:
3d

Partially Implemented Thread 'SV OU Suspect Reform'

So as finch alluded to in the mess of a kyurem suspect thread, there are ongoing discussions about changing voting reqs and I would like to weigh in with a proposal: adding 2 gxe points to the current system, allowing reqs to overlap and possibly implementing a game & alt maximum.

The gxe requirement seems most logical and clean cut to me. Using Excel I found out that the average GXE was about 78.3% on the top500 ladder. Keep in mind lots of people are playing casually, memeing, and in general clicking hard and the average is still 78.3%. Yes there are high outliers in the high 80s low...
  • Like
  • Haha
  • Wow
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Thanks. While I understand there was a large group calling for harder reqs, I wish Ausma was listened to more. Newer/inexperienced players really don’t have an avenue to attempt reqs.
 
BobbyHill said:
Newer/inexperienced players really don’t have an avenue to attempt reqs.
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I’d argue this is, unfortunately, by design. Not to alienate newer players or inexperienced players, but rather those without sufficient level of play and understanding — that is the brutally honest core of the issue.

I will say though that the GXE floor has been the same and the amount of people who have gotten reqs has been virtually the same, but it does take a few more matches.
 
Finchinator said:
I’d argue this is, unfortunately, by design. Not to alienate newer players or inexperienced players, but rather those without sufficient level of play and understanding — that is the brutally honest core of the issue.

I will say though that the GXE floor has been the same and the amount of people who have gotten reqs has been virtually the same, but it does take a few more matches.
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I of course don’t mean fresh players. Ausma mentioned players in the 1600-1750 range. I think that range probably has a decent understanding of the meta. I’m in that range and definitely don’t even have a chance at reqs now.
 
BobbyHill said:
I of course don’t mean fresh players. Ausma mentioned players in the 1600-1750 range. I think that range probably has a decent understanding of the meta. I’m in that range and definitely don’t even have a chance at reqs now.
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Players in the 1600-1750 range can absolutely make 1750 if they can get to 80 GXE, which was already the minimum before we changed reqs. The change did not impact rigor so much as force players to play 3-5 more games against high ladder opponents using real teams rather than reqs being almost only against low ladder.

If you were already at 80 GXE, I guarantee you with a few tries you can get reqs now if you did before.
 
I never really saw an issue with the ease of getting reqs. The main issue with the original system was that it was possible for one guy with too much time on their hands to make like 10 alts and give them to other people for reqs (y'all are never gonna guess what happened lol) but the smogon linking stuff fixed that problem and it seems like a bit too much to change the requirements on top of that. To be fair I've been too busy with schoolwork/finals to actually go out of my way and get reqs since the change so I don't have personal experience on how hard reqs are to get post-change but from complaints and stuff i've seen it seems like the lower end of reqs getters aren't a huge fan.

Fortunately my schedule is freed up and hopefully will still be by the time the next suspect comes around. Expect an actual opinion then.
 
ArcadianSkies said:
Given how steep power creep has been this generation, and the relative prevalence of entry hazards and other forms of residual damage, chip damage on offensive pieces can be ill-afforded, perhaps moreso than any generation before, especially chip damage voluntarily accepted and entertained by running Life Orb.

Outwith Sheer Force cases, it gets a little harder to justify running over a choice item, or Booster Energy for those that can use it, or even Boots to avoid chip damage from hazards
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it's quite simple: Most of the pokemon in OU just simply don't need it. Kingambit's ability literally gives it a free choice band if its the last mon alive, you don't need a life orb boost to cleave through everything
 
LO is a very weird item, in the sense you cant just slap it on any Mon and have your day. The legit LO uses I have found so far are:
1. Magic Guard Mons.
2. Sheer Force Mons.
3. Offensive grounded Mons supported by Rillaboom.
4. Mons with a move that hits extremely hard and recovers health (think about Yveltal with Oblivion Wing, but for OU equivalents).
5. Rain Dish/Dry Skin offensive Mons (these are very few).
6. Regenerated offensive Mons (Torn or Mienshao).
7. HO with LO Spam (many LO Mons on the same teams, not just one).
8. Trace Gardevoir, but for this one to work, meta needs to be full of Regenerator and Magic Guard Mons, threatened by Garde. This worked for me in SS DLC 1 (mid 2020, was best SS Meta, DLC 2 ruined the tier forever) and very early in SV OU, when I managed to peak 1 on the ladder. Currently it wont work well, probably have to wait for early Gen 10, with limited Dex and Glowking absent.
 
I’m back from the lab with a brand new, specially tailored Gapdos set.

:zapdos-galar:

Zapdos-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 196 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Brave Bird
- Thunderous Kick
- Substitute

Enough speed for modest :raging Bolt: and if you tera Fairy, :Clefable:’s Moonblast can’t break sub. :Iron Valiant: can’t OHKO and you OHKO back. Anti-Stall unit, can beat :Dondozo: if [:zapdos-galar:] gets a headstart. Beats :Iron Moth: and obviously :Kingambit: (base).

:zapdos-galar::zapdos-galar::zapdos-galar:
 
EpicGuy321 said:
I’m back from the lab with a brand new, specially tailored Gapdos set.

:zapdos-galar:

Zapdos-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 196 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Brave Bird
- Thunderous Kick
- Substitute

Enough speed for modest :raging Bolt: and if you tera Fairy, :Clefable:’s Moonblast can’t break sub. :Iron Valiant: can’t OHKO and you OHKO back. Anti-Stall unit, can beat :Dondozo: if [:zapdos-galar:] gets a headstart. Beats :Iron Moth: and obviously :Kingambit: (base).

:zapdos-galar::zapdos-galar::zapdos-galar:
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this is the kind of cooking i hope we see more of. never even considered spd gap could live hits like that. only issue is gholdengho, who makes you cry with this set. Defo gotta pack smth for that if u run this
 
Quackborg said:
this is the kind of cooking i hope we see more of. never even considered spd gap could live hits like that. only issue is gholdengho, who makes you cry with this set. Defo gotta pack smth for that if u run this
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yeah for sure. every team needs like 2 or 3 good ghold checks or lure coverage because Ghold is one of those mons where if you don’t prepare for it either purposely or accidentally, it’ll bully the whole team
 
TurquoiseLink said:
At least Gholdengo is the easiest mon in Pokemon history to lure. All you have to do is try to remove hazards and it'll come in on a suicide run to stop you. Booster Attack Great Tusk usually does a pretty good job, and Temper Flare crushes the balloon variants that are most popular these days.
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personally i prefer knock over temper flare. it's a stronger immediate punish if you predict the balloon ghold switch-in and serves as a generally better click than temper flare if it's non-balloon or something else switches in. temper flare's nice and all, and i especially fw it on sun, but i really like how well knock off can ease the burden of prediction in the tusk-ghold matchup. luv me midgrounds, simple as
 
You're all thinking about Life Orb too hard. I see funny numbers and call it a day. Like this shit?
252+ SpA Life Orb Enamorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Very nice. Idc if you're grounded w/grassy terrain or using draining moves or have regen etc etc. Just kill stuff you usually can't and we're gravy

Enamorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Ground / Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Mystical Fire / Substitute
- Healing Wish / Draining Kiss
 
Rekka's Backend said:
Give me your slightly unorthodox moves/sets for common OU mon. I'm talking like Thunderbolt/Flamethrower Dragapult type shit, I need some heat for a team but I am unsure what to fill some slots on it just yet and I want to be inspired. :blobuwu:
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:quagchamppogsire: While I think it's gaining some popularity, sub Ogerpon-W is still considered unconventional and can catch some opponents off guard.
:ogerpon-wellspring:
Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Horn Leech
- Substitute

:quagchamppogsire:This one is a unconvential lead where instead of puking out spikes before you die (Ting-Lu does that now), you try to leave a dent or even get a kill or two before dying (or even sweep lol).
:ogerpon-cornerstone:
Ogerpon-Cornerstone (F) @ Cornerstone Mask
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Trailblaze
- Encore / Knock Off / Superpower
 
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Rekka's Backend said:
Give me your slightly unorthodox moves/sets for common OU mon. I'm talking like Thunderbolt/Flamethrower Dragapult type shit, I need some heat for a team but I am unsure what to fill some slots on it just yet and I want to be inspired. :blobuwu:
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araq is a mon that can run its standard set to good sucess, but tapping into its movepool lets it completely destroy its general bad mu into every dd user. Duckular came up with the bold reflect that lives moon acro, but i've been trying pounce/lunge over endure (still on special sets) and it works very well to stop the moons and kyus and dnites.

I just recently theorycrafted this (and have yet to be able to test it in a real game), but tera fire throat chop gambit can totally sit on roar molt, which is huge vs teams that rely on that to deal with it.

but my personal favorites of my wacky sets are the two i've cooked for iron treads. The first is the standard HO suicide lead, with a slight twist.
Iron Treads @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 248 Spe
Modest Nature
- Steel Beam
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
tera stellar modest steel beam and ep actually hits a lot of notable targets (naive pult ace pecha zama) pretty hard. its not some crazy change considering it still runs all the same moves, but it improves your passivity a lot without sabotaging the speed tiers that much.

but my new fav treads set is the one, the only, larpdorus-therian
Iron Treads @ Soft Sand
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Spinner
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
theres only one specific calc this set has in mind, which is that tera ground does minroll 50 to offensive tusk, but in general the idea of the set is make treads not passive. And the way to do that is stack a few multipliers and watch the damage rack up. tusk, clef, pult, nothing likes switching in on this eq (besides corv). it obviously competes with both tusk and lando for this set, but speed tier can differentiate it from both, and hitting gliscor is better than lando
 
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