Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[tommytt22]

132 SpA Iron Moth Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 180-214 (35.7 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
132 SpA Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 142-168 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Quark Drive Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 201-237 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Even if its booster special attack, dozo can still take its hits alright. Only issue would be if its special attack booster+e-ball, which honestly, isn't the most uncommon thing, but not every moth is going to be it. A lot are speed booster, which dozo does fine against. A lot aren't energy ball and are either d-gleam or tera blast ground. And its job isn't to set curses on these special attackers, but to set up on weaker physical attackers (or even weaker special attackers) and then take one or two decently strong special attackers to contine sweeping.

Specially defensive can still take physical attackers on pretty fine, as after a curse or two, it takes so little damage. But it comes with the added benefit that it can take on a few special attackers briefly to contine sweeping.

252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 157-186 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- 73% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Iron Crown Psychic Noise vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 111-132 (22 - 26.1%) -- 7% chance to 4HKO
+2 0 Atk Dondozo Waterfall vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 110-130 (34.2 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 0 Atk Dondozo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Crown: 172-204 (53.5 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If primarina is even a bit chipped, then it doesn't beat dozo 1v1. Valiant is not switching in on it as it takes way too much from waterfall to be comfortable, while walking wake is mostly restricted to sun (heavy duty boots variants do like 45% max with draco).

At what area of ladder are you using this set exactly? Because anyone letting it get +2 with zero chip or status isnt very good. Max def primarina WILL beat it down with psynoise and draining kiss, not everyone uses assault vest.

Also waterfall does 35 to valiant? Unless you switch in on curse in which case you encore it immediately. I would love to see some replays of this in action, unaware Pokemon are notorious for farming low ladder but if you can pilot this against a competent player then by all means I'll concede.

At the end of the day you need to setup a curse on someone physical, these are the calcs you need to be concerned about:

252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 249-294 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 246-289 (48.8 - 57.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Protosynthesis Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 228-268 (45.2 - 53.1%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo on a critical hit: 272-324 (53.9 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

240 Atk Soft Sand Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 186-220 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Let's hope your dozo takes zero chip.

 

[Heatranator]

These calls aren’t impressive like you might think they are. Given Don’s propensity for prior chip it will very quickly be forced to rest, and it’s not a very threatening sweeper when so many teams have mons that force it out.

Again, as I have stated before, you take out the mons that can threaten dozo for large amounts of damage, so you can endgame sweep. Iron Moth most likely is getting off one attack before being OHKO'd by +1 dondozo. Those calcs are to show, that in endgame scenarios, pokemon such as iron moth don't immediately threaten out sp.defense dozo, when comparitevely, phys.defense dozo has to switch out.

I’d also question how Dondozo is hitting +2 at all as I said, it’s difficult to sit and stay in with it unless it’s very late game where ideally its checks are weakened or gone.

That's kinda the whole point of specially defensive dozo teams. Chip down all of its checks/remove them, and then sweep late game.

Plus Primarina has Encore to just lock it into Curse (many mons do actually), and that Iron Crown scenario is off because Dozo is realistically at +1 as Crown comes in, Crown Psychic Noises, then Volt Switches out, and your Don is heavily chipped.

I checked the 1825 stats, and Encore isn't even listed on Primarina (yes, I know its a viable move, but its one prim can struggle to fit). As for other encore users, its dragonite at 12.141% (can struggle to fit it), wellspring with 16% (but sp.defense dozo teams try to take it out before dozo tries to sweep), Iron Valiant at 26% (but valiant doesn't like switching into dozo), Hamurott at 18.238% and Tinkaton at 96% (but wtf is tink doing to dozo, taking its lefties or boots ig?). There are others such as the ninetales that also have it, but those are much more niche options.
Iron crown is doing a lot with psychic noise+volt switch, sure, but even a +1 dozo is doing a lot of chip to crown, and if they don't (49% of crowns don't), then its going to struggle a lot more into it, at best setting up future sight, and then pivoting out (which the dozo can rest off a large portion of the damage btw).

(this is without considering that running mono attacking don with just water stab is a recipe for disaster in a tier with Wellspring)

Which is why you pair it with teammates such as pult or latios along with spikes from gliscor or skarm in order to answer it, slowly chipping it down over the course of a game).

At what area of ladder are you using this set exactly? Because anyone letting it get +2 with zero chip or status isnt very good. Max def primarina WILL beat it down with psynoise and draining kiss, not everyone uses assault vest.

Also waterfall does 35 to valiant? Unless you switch in on curse in which case you encore it immediately. I would love to see some replays of this in action, unaware Pokemon are notorious for farming low ladder but if you can pilot this against a competent player then by all means I'll concede.

At the end of the day you need to setup a curse on someone physical, these are the calcs you need to be concerned about:

252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 249-294 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 246-289 (48.8 - 57.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Protosynthesis Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 228-268 (45.2 - 53.1%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo on a critical hit: 272-324 (53.9 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

240 Atk Soft Sand Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 186-220 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Let's hope your dozo takes zero chip.

Val doesn't like wasting its booster and that's still sizeable chip against it.

Also please stop cherry picking calcs. Those are some of the strongest moves in the game, sp,defense dozo teams aren't going to be making it tank those insanely strong hits, they are going to be supporting it with pokemon such as gliscor.
Here's some more reasonable calcs that you would find:
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dondozo: 175-207 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dondozo: 181-214 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dondozo: 165-195 (32.7 - 38.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 145-171 (28.7 - 33.9%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
Even these insanely strong hits it can take well enough, at least to set up a curse or two. Showing a meowscarada calc against dozo (btw, meow beats phys.defense dozo too, so not a point against sp.defense dozo) is honestly, extremely disingenous. Yes, if you put sp.defense dozo against the strongest attacks in the game, it will look ass. But if you actually support it with teammates, then it will work well.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-821961
Here's a tour game showing of sp.defense dozo. It basically won endgame once ting+pecha was chipped.

 

[Moyashi]

Again, as I have stated before, you take out the mons that can threaten dozo for large amounts of damage, so you can endgame sweep. Iron Moth most likely is getting off one attack before being OHKO'd by +1 dondozo. Those calcs are to show, that in endgame scenarios, pokemon such as iron moth don't immediately threaten out sp.defense dozo, when comparitevely, phys.defense dozo has to switch out.

That's kinda the whole point of specially defensive dozo teams. Chip down all of its checks/remove them, and then sweep late game.

I checked the 1825 stats, and Encore isn't even listed on Primarina (yes, I know its a viable move, but its one prim can struggle to fit). As for other encore users, its dragonite at 12.141% (can struggle to fit it), wellspring with 16% (but sp.defense dozo teams try to take it out before dozo tries to sweep), Iron Valiant at 26% (but valiant doesn't like switching into dozo), Hamurott at 18.238% and Tinkaton at 96% (but wtf is tink doing to dozo, taking its lefties or boots ig?). There are others such as the ninetales that also have it, but those are much more niche options.
Iron crown is doing a lot with psychic noise+volt switch, sure, but even a +1 dozo is doing a lot of chip to crown, and if they don't (49% of crowns don't), then its going to struggle a lot more into it, at best setting up future sight, and then pivoting out (which the dozo can rest off a large portion of the damage btw).

Which is why you pair it with teammates such as pult or latios along with spikes from gliscor or skarm in order to answer it, slowly chipping it down over the course of a game).

Val doesn't like wasting its booster and that's still sizeable chip against it.

Also please stop cherry picking calcs. Those are some of the strongest moves in the game, sp,defense dozo teams aren't going to be making it tank those insanely strong hits, they are going to be supporting it with pokemon such as gliscor.
Here's some more reasonable calcs that you would find:
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dondozo: 175-207 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dondozo: 181-214 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dondozo: 165-195 (32.7 - 38.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 145-171 (28.7 - 33.9%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
Even these insanely strong hits it can take well enough, at least to set up a curse or two. Showing a meowscarada calc against dozo (btw, meow beats phys.defense dozo too, so not a point against sp.defense dozo) is honestly, extremely disingenous. Yes, if you put sp.defense dozo against the strongest attacks in the game, it will look ass. But if you actually support it with teammates, then it will work well.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-821961
Here's a tour game showing of sp.defense dozo. It basically won endgame once ting+pecha was chipped.

In an endgame scenario where most of its checks are removed, just about anything OU viable is threatening. Don is not special, and its flaws are a massive chore to accommodate in the builder.

Also aside from the cherry picked Moon calc (moon would knock off not use acro), every calc you show illustrate how it’s very easy to force into resting with just one big attack (Tusk Headlong? Gotta rest or you risk being 2HKOd next time. Black Glasses Gambit? 3HKOd so you gotta rest). See my point? You have to work way too much in builder and battle for so underwhelming a Pokémon on any team that isn’t stall or very specific fat builds, when you can just use any better bulky water that does more during a game (cough Mola cough).

Again I ask, if this set is supposedly good (outside stall) then where is it? Don has very little presence in SPL (like SUPER small and I’m fairly certain most of its appearances are stall, though I could be wrong).

 

[Heatranator]

In an endgame scenario where most of its checks are removed, just about anything OU viable is threatening. Don is not special, and its flaws are a massive chore to accommodate in the builder.

Well, its because typically, all you need to remove for dozo is:
Waterpon (spikes chip is good and waterpon isn't the most longevity prone mon)
Raging Bolt and Zapdos (raging bolt has been falling off lately, while zapdos is a fair point)
Hydrapple (which is def a difficult matchup)
Kyurem (chip prone and something such as treads can help, also dozo can tera on it if needed)
Encore mons (which realistically is val, tink and sometimes hamurott and d-nite)
Iron crown (which is chip prone)
This isn't an insanely large list, so yeah, I would say that dozo is a bit special in that department, because it truly does end games once its checks are chipped sufficiently. (maybe I'm missing something, but correct me if I'm wrong).

Also aside from the cherry picked Moon calc (moon would knock off not use acro), every calc you show illustrate how it’s very easy to force into resting with just one big attack (Tusk Headlong? Gotta rest or you risk being 2HKOd next time. Black Glasses Gambit? 3HKOd so you gotta rest). See my point? You have to work way too much in builder and battle for so underwhelming a Pokémon on any team that isn’t stall or very specific fat builds, when you can just use any better bulky water that does more during a game (cough Mola cough).

252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 192-226 (38 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I mainly showed the acro calc because that is the consistent damage that moon is doing to it. Also dozo would then curse up, then rest (again, this is in an endgame scenario, so dozo would be able to take the next hits). But that's my b for not showing what the knock calc was first. A lot more moons are also going more defensive, so this calc could potentially be less.
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 117-138 (23.2 - 27.3%) -- 60.3% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 121-144 (24 - 28.5%) -- 97.3% chance to 4HKO
Just as an example btw. Dondozo stands out as a bulky water that can threaten to sweep, which the pokemon in that category is primarina (doesn't have good physical defense), azumarill (outclassed by prim 99% of the time and has to lose 50% of its health to sweep) and manaphy (which commonly needs a lot of boosts to get going and can't heal itself)

Again I ask, if this set is supposedly good (outside stall) then where is it? Don has very little presence in SPL (like SUPER small and I’m fairly certain most of its appearances are stall, though I could be wrong).

Dozo has more usage then pokemon such as Latios, Hydrapple, Volcanion and Keldeo, so don't think its really that little of a presence. Yes, it doesn't have much presence in stuff like tourneys, idk why. I'm guessing its because the amount of resources scares people to not try it out. I've only got that one tour game replay, but from what I've seen of others using it on high ladder, it is definetely good.

 

[milkaccordion]

I remember SupaGmoney brought a Dondozo balance team in OST Round 4-A, and also earlier in round 2-B.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-821594?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-821605?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-819213?p2

The conversation at the end of game 2 seems relevant lol.

 

[Moyashi]

Well, its because typically, all you need to remove for dozo is:
Waterpon (spikes chip is good and waterpon isn't the most longevity prone mon)
Raging Bolt and Zapdos (raging bolt has been falling off lately, while zapdos is a fair point)
Hydrapple (which is def a difficult matchup)
Kyurem (chip prone and something such as treads can help, also dozo can tera on it if needed)
Encore mons (which realistically is val, tink and sometimes hamurott and d-nite)
Iron crown (which is chip prone)
This isn't an insanely large list, so yeah, I would say that dozo is a bit special in that department, because it truly does end games once its checks are chipped sufficiently. (maybe I'm missing something, but correct me if I'm wrong).

no offense but this isn’t a compelling argument. Saying many checks are chip weak, again, applies to most wincons this isn’t don exclusive and you also assume you’ll be playing perfectly with it in any given scenario.

You also left off Sinistcha as a hard stop, Primarina who can encore and psychic noise it, Latios (nicher but quite viable) which just Luster Purges or Psychic Noises, Pecharunt, Walking Wake (boots sets especially mess over Dondozo), Volcanion can sit on it forever, and there’s probably even more.

Also dozo would then curse up, then rest (again, this is in an endgame scenario,

The game is not just endgame, you have to realize that until that state assuming you even reach it, you’re playing with a very exploitable Mon that you have to babysit and not let get crippled which inhibits its usefulness. You can’t just hold it back until then, you are just playing 5v6 at that point and then you’re really better off running something else.

Yes, it doesn't have much presence in stuff like tourneys, idk why. I'm guessing it’s because the amount of resources scares people to not try it out. I've only got that one tour game replay, but from what I've seen of others using it on high ladder, it is definetely good.

Most high ladder Don usage is on various stall and specific fat teams, the specific styles Don is good on (see its common teammates for this). Also given that fact and how stall sometimes tends to be more common at high ladder, this isn’t surprising. It’s very hard to build with because of its flaws. Unviable? Definitely not, I’m just saying don’t sell it for more than it is. If it works for you, more power to you. But yeah. That’ll be my last bit on this side topic so as to not keep filling the forums.

 

[Finchinator]

Dozo has seen some usage on balance and is viable there. The main issue is that you either run Lefties with substantial removal or need a Knock Off swap as once it’s taking hazards consistently, you’re a few pivot loops away from being out into countless 2HKO ranges (or 3HKO rangers with sleep factored in).

It also enables FS and positioning loops from GKing, so teams with it need a pretty durable or proactive plan for that. Doesn’t mean it’s unviable or discouraged, but you just need to be very particular with Dozo given passivity and what it enables/is discouraged by.

 

[tommytt22]

Again, as I have stated before, you take out the mons that can threaten dozo for large amounts of damage, so you can endgame sweep. Iron Moth most likely is getting off one attack before being OHKO'd by +1 dondozo. Those calcs are to show, that in endgame scenarios, pokemon such as iron moth don't immediately threaten out sp.defense dozo, when comparitevely, phys.defense dozo has to switch out.

That's kinda the whole point of specially defensive dozo teams. Chip down all of its checks/remove them, and then sweep late game.

I checked the 1825 stats, and Encore isn't even listed on Primarina (yes, I know its a viable move, but its one prim can struggle to fit). As for other encore users, its dragonite at 12.141% (can struggle to fit it), wellspring with 16% (but sp.defense dozo teams try to take it out before dozo tries to sweep), Iron Valiant at 26% (but valiant doesn't like switching into dozo), Hamurott at 18.238% and Tinkaton at 96% (but wtf is tink doing to dozo, taking its lefties or boots ig?). There are others such as the ninetales that also have it, but those are much more niche options.
Iron crown is doing a lot with psychic noise+volt switch, sure, but even a +1 dozo is doing a lot of chip to crown, and if they don't (49% of crowns don't), then its going to struggle a lot more into it, at best setting up future sight, and then pivoting out (which the dozo can rest off a large portion of the damage btw).

Which is why you pair it with teammates such as pult or latios along with spikes from gliscor or skarm in order to answer it, slowly chipping it down over the course of a game).

Val doesn't like wasting its booster and that's still sizeable chip against it.

Also please stop cherry picking calcs. Those are some of the strongest moves in the game, sp,defense dozo teams aren't going to be making it tank those insanely strong hits, they are going to be supporting it with pokemon such as gliscor.
Here's some more reasonable calcs that you would find:
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dondozo: 175-207 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dondozo: 181-214 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dondozo: 165-195 (32.7 - 38.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 145-171 (28.7 - 33.9%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
Even these insanely strong hits it can take well enough, at least to set up a curse or two. Showing a meowscarada calc against dozo (btw, meow beats phys.defense dozo too, so not a point against sp.defense dozo) is honestly, extremely disingenous. Yes, if you put sp.defense dozo against the strongest attacks in the game, it will look ass. But if you actually support it with teammates, then it will work well.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-821961
Here's a tour game showing of sp.defense dozo. It basically won endgame once ting+pecha was chipped.

Its absolutely not cherry picking calcs when I've ommited any super effective moves, barring choice scarf meowscarada. No one used tera in those calcs either. For example, choice band tera grass meowscarada is an OHKO. not really a common choice though is it?

They're Pokemon that will come in, get a kill, and you'll have to decide what to send out afterwards. Physdef dozo can come in and setup. Spdef dozo can't. Neither of them can setup on a special attacker unless it's choice locked. That's my point.

 

[Heatranator]

Its absolutely not cherry picking calcs when I've ommited any super effective moves, barring choice scarf meowscarada. No one used tera in those calcs either. For example, choice band tera grass meowscarada is an OHKO. not really a common choice though is it?

They're Pokemon that will come in, get a kill, and you'll have to decide what to send out afterwards. Physdef dozo can come in and setup. Spdef dozo can't. Neither of them can setup on a special attacker unless it's choice locked. That's my point.

252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 186-219 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo on a critical hit: 200-236 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 181-214 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 168-198 (33.3 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
240 Atk Soft Sand Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 138-163 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

All of thse force dondozo to rest and waste its PP, or tera (besides lando, but sp.defense dozo still doesn't do bad into that), but at that point we should allow sp.defense to also tera, which would mean mons such as kingambit and meowscarada then can't beat it.
So in fact, yes, you are trying to cherry pick calcs without using more realistic calcs (meowscarada is niche, most tusks aren't booster attack, most gambits run lefties and they usually have only 2 or 3 fallen, only a zama on a sample is banded etc) but also it shows that phys.defense dozo doesn't really take there hits well. My point was never that it can set up on strong special attackers, but that it could take those hits in order to continue sweeping.

 

[tommytt22]

252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 186-219 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo on a critical hit: 200-236 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 181-214 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 168-198 (33.3 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
240 Atk Soft Sand Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 138-163 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

All of thse force dondozo to rest and waste its PP, or tera (besides lando, but sp.defense dozo still doesn't do bad into that), but at that point we should allow sp.defense to also tera, which would mean mons such as kingambit and meowscarada then can't beat it.
So in fact, yes, you are trying to cherry pick calcs without using more realistic calcs (meowscarada is niche, most tusks aren't booster attack, most gambits run lefties and they usually have only 2 or 3 fallen, only a zama on a sample is banded etc) but also it shows that phys.defense dozo doesn't really take there hits well. My point was never that it can set up on strong special attackers, but that it could take those hits in order to continue sweeping.

In every case there if dozo is full he can curse once, rest, then win (aside from meowscarada). You really can't afford to switch in with dozo if you're using it as a sweeper because it has to be full hp to pull it off.

That replay you showed... That guy.. didn't have a single super effective move to hit a water type with. I don't know whether he's a respected player or not, but his team was asking for trouble. Substitute primarina would've torn him apart as well. Frankly it seems like poor team building that caused that loss

 

[Quackborg]

for the record, tera dark is extremely common on spdef dozo, specifically because of psynoise. dozo can tailor its tera to have a better mu into some of those things

 

[gephicka]

Dozo has more usage then pokemon such as Latios, Hydrapple, Volcanion and Keldeo, so don't think its really that little of a presence. Yes, it doesn't have much presence in stuff like tourneys, idk why. I'm guessing its because the amount of resources scares people to not try it out. I've only got that one tour game replay, but from what I've seen of others using it on high ladder, it is definetely good.

I think this like most things can be attributed more to the tournament meta, specifically SPL’s Bo1 format. Are you really gonna blow your one game playing stall in a notoriously anti-stall generation? (not to say that non-stall dozo is bad, just extremely niche) Not to say that it cannot be done ofc, but as you’re only prepping one team a week you’re incentivized to bring more consistent styles (i.e BO, Balance) which is why Ting-Lu/Pech/Zama etc are all so high because they fit on those consistent structures so well

 

[JackRG]

This is a good example of a spdef dozo team I made a little while ago: https://pokepast.es/9c2fab3953b31f99 (also yes, it has an entei on it!)

 

[Kerfishsea]

This is a good example of a spdef dozo team I made a little while ago: https://pokepast.es/9c2fab3953b31f99 (also yes, it has an entei on it!)

Why the Geezer (Galarian Weezing)?
If you don't mind me asking, I don't want to come off as rude.

 

[JackRG]

Why the Geezer (Galarian Weezing)?
If you don't mind me asking, I don't want to come off as rude.

Normally on a team like this I’d use ace + corv but since ace overlaps with entei too much, Gweez allows me to fit both defog and a way to remove on ghold in one slot.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I used to run this Dondozo set on I semi stall team I built a while back



Dondozo @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Liquidation
- Body Press
- Rest

Chesto Rest allows it to run two attacks as well as give him a one time, one turn full recovery move. This makes it more difficult to overpower 1v1 and just makes it overall more consistent than the Rest Talk set imo

Are the Protect variants still a thing? I was thinking of running Leftovers + Protect with Dive for extra Leftovers recovery a while back. Although Dive might give certain teams free switch ins, this set also has an extra attack slot to work with (two if you choose not to run Curse)

 

[JackRG]

Tbh this seems cool ill give it a go, maybe tera fighting is better tho?

 

[lemonademaker]

Is there any reason why we can't have a Baton Pass Stat Clause to have free baton pass in the same vein as gens 4 & 5. It would be nice to give some mons a pivot that don’t have another option.

The main problem would be sub passing but i doubt that would be unfair cause 1) its barely used in gens 4 & 5 right now, and 2) it requiring two turns and two move slots really makes it inefficient, its a lot worse then shed tail. But even if sub passing turned out to be unfair, we could just ban it on sets with baton passing just like boosting stats

I guess a contrary mon fishing for a webs team or a stat drop from an opponent's move could be problematic, but the only contrary mon with baton pass is malamar and relying on your opponent to bring/use a specific move is never really a good Strat. The contrary mon would basically be a waste of a slot if it does not get this boost, since it would not be able to run self lower stat moves cause of the clause

 

[FayaWizard]

Is there any reason why we can't have a Baton Pass Stat Clause to have free baton pass in the same vein as gens 4 & 5. It would be nice to give some mons a pivot that don’t have another option.

The main problem would be sub passing but i doubt that would be unfair cause 1) its barely used in gens 4 & 5 right now, and 2) it requiring two turns and two move slots really makes it inefficient, its a lot worse then shed tail. But even if sub passing turned out to be unfair, we could just ban it on sets with baton passing just like boosting stats

I guess a contrary mon fishing for a webs team or a stat drop from an opponent's move could be problematic, but the only contrary mon with baton pass is malamar and relying on your opponent to bring/use a specific move is never really a good Strat. The contrary mon would basically be a waste of a slot if it does not get this boost, since it would not be able to run self lower stat moves cause of the clause

We are not adding an unnecessary clause for a move that is notorious for finding new ways to be broken. There has been zero support for a Baton Pass clause this gen, and without substantial support and a clear need for it, there is no reason to modify the game just to free a move that most, if not all OU pokemon wouldn’t use anyways.

Currently in OU, there are seven potential users of Baton Pass: Alomomola, Cinderace, Clefable, Dragapult, Gliscor, Hatterene, and Zapdos. Of the 7, 5 already have pivot moves, and only Alomomola would potentially run Baton Pass to evade Ogerpon-Wellspring’s Water Absorb. Of the remaining two, Clefable doesn’t have the move slots to run Baton Pass, and the potential Wish Pass niche is already taken by Alomomola. Meanwhile, Hatterene may see some usage on Eject Button sets, but even then the ability to run Nuzzle/Healing Wish instead can outweigh the utility of Baton Pass.

A Baron Pass clause would be a complex ban for little reason, no support, barely any upsides, and the high potential for cheese.

 

[gephicka]

A Baron Pass clause would be a complex ban for little reason, no support, barely any upsides, and the high potential for cheese.

not even 10 minutes later already proven right

anyways how are feeling about how Ogerpon-W's set variety has evolved over the last few months?

 

[JackRG]

Is there any reason why we can't have a Baton Pass Stat Clause to have free baton pass in the same vein as gens 4 & 5. It would be nice to give some mons a pivot that don’t have another option.

The main problem would be sub passing but i doubt that would be unfair cause 1) its barely used in gens 4 & 5 right now, and 2) it requiring two turns and two move slots really makes it inefficient, its a lot worse then shed tail. But even if sub passing turned out to be unfair, we could just ban it on sets with baton passing just like boosting stats

I guess a contrary mon fishing for a webs team or a stat drop from an opponent's move could be problematic, but the only contrary mon with baton pass is malamar and relying on your opponent to bring/use a specific move is never really a good Strat. The contrary mon would basically be a waste of a slot if it does not get this boost, since it would not be able to run self lower stat moves cause of the clause

One of the main reasons dry passing is legal in gen 4 and 5 is because it lets you escape pursuit, which unfortunately was removed

 

[Rekka's Backend]

Does Poison Fang stack with Toxic Chain? Or are they separate roll chances?

I ran into a weird Okidogi set I wasn't quite sure as for the reason for Fang over Gunk or Jab, wasn't really quite sure as to why at all.

 

[Eeveeto]

For what is worth, I support completely unrestricted Baton Pass and would support just Dry Pass too, I would like pivoting Eeveelutions and other niche Mons and also like the match-up fishing aspect of full BP chains, since they end up affecting much more to other players than to me. Or at least that was it in ORAS and SM, I don,t know how I would adapt if its introduced today, and probably never will.

That being said, you have to know the reason why BP is allowed in Gen 3, 4 and 5: Some OU Mons there (Celebi, Zapdos, Mew, Vaporeon, Jolteon, etc.) learn Baton Pass. They are relevant in OU in at least some of the metas. They have been relevant for several decades at this point, so the players of those Tiers don,t want to remove the Mons, they just remove the "cheesy", "match-up fishing" aspect of it. In contrast, SV (and SS), have never had Baton Pass, for those Tiers it would be a completely new thing. Therefore, the only way for BP to be tested is if a HUGE ammount of people are in support of it. This obviously is very unlikely to happen, especially if we consider complex Bans are very unpopular nowadays.

In other news, Gliscor and Roaring Moon are being talked about in the Views From the Council thread. I have always supported Gliscor being removed from OU, and I don,t mind Roaring Moon being gone too, since its one of the "many big offensive threats you have to account for" even though I think its Scarfer set adds some good value for the meta. Looking forward for any of the Suspect and if I get the reqs, would vote Ban for either.

 

[milkaccordion]

Does Poison Fang stack with Toxic Chain? Or are they separate roll chances?

I ran into a weird Okidogi set I wasn't quite sure as for the reason for Fang over Gunk or Jab, wasn't really quite sure as to why at all.

I think they're separate roll chances. The only reason to run Poison Fang is that it badly poisons vs regular poison, along with the higher poison chance.

On another topic, I recently have been trying to experiment with making a rain team work in OU- Barraskewda seems great in practice right now, out speeding even +2 Roaring Moon under rain, but with all the priority running around and having to dedicate a team slot to Pelipper with rain not having other good abusers (Raging Bolt and Tornadus Therian benefit a little but not a ton) it seems I can't get it past upper mid ladder. Anyone have suggestions or also been experimenting with rain?

I've been experimenting with Hatterene on rain, and it feels pretty solid. People have been using it on veil teams, and I remember Pinkacross had a couple of rain teams in SS OU with Tapu Lele. However, I was having issues with Slowking-G until I ran this set.


Hatterene @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic Noise
- Draining Kiss
- Psyshock

Check out this calc:
+2 0+ SpA Life Orb Hatterene Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Slowking-Galar: 378-446 (95.9 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Has anyone had any success reviving playstyles that are considered not that great, like rain, grassy terrain, or Slowking snow?

 

[tommytt22]

I think they're separate roll chances. The only reason to run Poison Fang is that it badly poisons vs regular poison, along with the higher poison chance.

I've been experimenting with Hatterene on rain, and it feels pretty solid. People have been using it on veil teams, and I remember Pinkacross had a couple of rain teams in SS OU with Tapu Lele. However, I was having issues with Slowking-G until I ran this set.


Hatterene @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic Noise
- Draining Kiss
- Psyshock

Check out this calc:
+2 0+ SpA Life Orb Hatterene Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Slowking-Galar: 378-446 (95.9 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Has anyone had any success reviving playstyles that are considered not that great, like rain, grassy terrain, or Slowking snow?

Define slowking snow. I carry a slowking on my aurora veil team to help with weather wars and keep kyurems defense up. But never without a ninetails as well.

I may give grassy offense another go (I wish breloom got grassy glide)

Kyurem 6-0 off lead LMAO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2315680177