Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Bold School]

ngl, imo either we should get rid of tera blast from the tier or suspect roaring moon I personally feel the variety different tera's it can run plus ev's it runs is is too stupid to counter. Tera fairy is busted with blast is almost an auto win, ground can be so stupid if not prepared for, fire is a legit tera now which is crazy and flying is always going to be threating. What do y'all think am I tripping?

I've been preaching to the choir on Roaring Moon since they unbanned the thing. Disgusting mon. It has the same BE + DD + Tera cheese that Gouging Fire had, except less bulk and more speed and power. And it still has HP and special defense in the base 100s.

The main thing I disagree with you on is that a Tera Blast ban wouldn't stop Moon from being dumb since it has enough coverage moves. It would mainly just nerf the Tera Fairy sets. That is not a small thing, but RM has a lot more other options than it is often given credit for outside of just Teraa Flying acro. And Fairy would still be a good defensive Tera option on it while it sets up extra DDs.

I would still want to see Tera Blast, though this is mostly related to its own issues than RM specifically.

 

[Finchinator]

Pokemon recently discussed in the council chat:

• has been a metagame staple since returning. It was initially banned during the first full year of SV OU, but was brought back with the second wave of releases. Another suspect happened last year, but Gliscor narrowaly remained OU. Some council members think the SD / Facade / Knock / Protect set is a bit much right now and one other council member noted that they find the Toxic variants to be hard to play around. No suspect is imminent, but talks have picked up scheme in both the public and private sphere this week
• has shown off diversity in Tera usage and set mix recently. Tera Fairy is able to flip the dynamic against Zamazenta and Great Tusk while still resisting Sucked Punch, for example. Ground, which has been common for a while now, is still going strong. Classic Flying Roaring Moon has actually lost some steam, but is still plenty viable as well. The overlap in counterplay between sets isn’t great and we find it winning a lot of games. Definitely on the radar more than previously.

 

[UltraSword]

I've been preaching to the choir on Roaring Moon since they unbanned the thing. Disgusting mon. It has the same BE + DD + Tera cheese that Gouging Fire had, except less bulk and more speed and power. And it still has HP and special defense in the base 100s.

The main thing I disagree with you on is that a Tera Blast ban wouldn't stop Moon from being dumb since it has enough coverage moves. It would mainly just nerf the Tera Fairy sets. That is not a small thing, but RM has a lot more other options than it is often given credit for outside of just Teraa Flying acro. And Fairy would still be a good defensive Tera option on it while it sets up extra DDs.

I would still want to see Tera Blast, though this is mostly related to its own issues than RM specifically.

So what do you think about Dragonite then? I would consider Dragonite as better than Roaring Moon and I have been hearing some discussion about it being really annoying lately. Do you consider Dragonite worse? I am just asking because I find that interesting.

 

[prav33n]

So what do you think about Dragonite then? I would consider Dragonite as better than Roaring Moon and I have been hearing some discussion about it being really annoying lately. Do you consider Dragonite worse? I am just asking because I find that interesting.

I’ve been using both moon and nite a lot my Tera fairy moon team peaked #4 and my game plan was 60% of the games was to Tera with moon and sweep. The bulky moon set is a bet too overpowered fast enough to outspeed most of the meta with one dd dance and hit like a truck even after one ddance. Nite just feels like a worse moon imo it’s really amazing don’t get me wrong with versatility in Tera’s and ev sets but by having a mediocre speed stat it feels like there dilemma with running jolly or adamant. Adamant you’re slower than most booster mobs even at plus 2 and jolly you’re missing a bit of the attacking threat which forces you tera and dd twice to possible win. Overall moon is just better than dnite at the things it’s does, but Tera fly nite is crazy I got swept by it in my round 5 ost game.

 

[658Greninja]

I’m glad someone brought up Tera Fairy Moon, cause Tera Blast is a fucking problem.

It makes otherwise healthy sweepers like Gambit, Dnite, Kyurem, and Moon frustrating to deal with. There’s no worse feeling in SV OU than midgrouding vs Gambit with Zama, and realizing you never stood a chance anyways because the bastard was Tera Fairy Blast Gambit. Banning Tera Blast would make checks like Zama, Tusk, and Corv more consistent at their job with checking all these steroid-abusing DD sweepers and Gambit.

I wouldn’t mind suspecting it and possibly even Waterpon in the future.

 

[prav33n]

I’m glad someone brought up Tera Fairy Moon, cause Tera Blast is a fucking problem.

It makes otherwise healthy sweepers like Gambit, Dnite, Kyurem, and Moon frustrating to deal with. There’s no worse feeling in SV OU than midgrouding vs Gambit with Zama, and realizing you never stood a chance anyways because the bastard was Tera Fairy Blast Gambit. Banning Tera Blast would make checks like Zama, Tusk, and Corv more consistent at their job with checking all these steroid-abusing DD sweepers and Gambit.

I wouldn’t mind suspecting it and possibly even Waterpon in the future.

I agree t blast is too much on the sweepers you’ve mentioned

 

[UltraSword]

I’m glad someone brought up Tera Fairy Moon, cause Tera Blast is a fucking problem.

It makes otherwise healthy sweepers like Gambit, Dnite, Kyurem, and Moon frustrating to deal with. There’s no worse feeling in SV OU than midgrouding vs Gambit with Zama, and realizing you never stood a chance anyways because the bastard was Tera Fairy Blast Gambit. Banning Tera Blast would make checks like Zama, Tusk, and Corv more consistent at their job with checking all these steroid-abusing DD sweepers and Gambit.

I wouldn’t mind suspecting it and possibly even Waterpon in the future.

I would personally be fine with Tera Blast being banned. But that is because I want Dragonite to dominate the meta even more with tera normal extreme speeds that hit like a truck and not because I think it is broken.

 

[TurquoiseLink]

I’m glad someone brought up Tera Fairy Moon, cause Tera Blast is a fucking problem.

It makes otherwise healthy sweepers like Gambit, Dnite, Kyurem, and Moon frustrating to deal with. There’s no worse feeling in SV OU than midgrouding vs Gambit with Zama, and realizing you never stood a chance anyways because the bastard was Tera Fairy Blast Gambit. Banning Tera Blast would make checks like Zama, Tusk, and Corv more consistent at their job with checking all these steroid-abusing DD sweepers and Gambit.

I wouldn’t mind suspecting it and possibly even Waterpon in the future.

Tera Fairy Kingambit only wins if Zamazenta has to switch in on a swords dance with several supreme overlord boosts. Otherwise Iron Defense tends to just power through it anyway.

 

[Delta4]

Tera Fairy Kingambit only wins if Zamazenta has to switch in on a swords dance with several supreme overlord boosts. Otherwise Iron Defense tends to just power through it anyway.

I think this overlooks the fact that someone piloting Tera Fairy Kingambit has this in mind and would save it as a surprise late game threat, when they would have those Supreme Overlord boosts and could get a SD off- I think 658 Greninja is right in that Tera Blast is a large factor in some of the BS late game threats that seem really overpowered, because the added variance is just to much to safely account for across a game

On another topic, I recently have been trying to experiment with making a rain team work in OU- Barraskewda seems great in practice right now, out speeding even +2 Roaring Moon under rain, but with all the priority running around and having to dedicate a team slot to Pelipper with rain not having other good abusers (Raging Bolt and Tornadus Therian benefit a little but not a ton) it seems I can't get it past upper mid ladder. Anyone have suggestions or also been experimenting with rain?

 

[JackRG]

So what do you think about Dragonite then? I would consider Dragonite as better than Roaring Moon and I have been hearing some discussion about it being really annoying lately. Do you consider Dragonite worse? I am just asking because I find that interesting.

I feel like if tera blast goes dragonite is fine, weak stabs and low bp on its moves in general hold it back quite a bit, even if its still really good

so this isn't a one liner: What do people think of SpD dondozo? Been spamming it a lot, really amazing blanket check especially with tera imo

 

[Kerfishsea]

On another topic, I recently have been trying to experiment with making a rain team work in OU- Barraskewda seems great in practice right now, out speeding even +2 Roaring Moon under rain, but with all the priority running around and having to dedicate a team slot to Pelipper with rain not having other good abusers (Raging Bolt and Tornadus Therian benefit a little but not a ton) it seems I can't get it past upper mid ladder. Anyone have suggestions or also been experimenting with rain?

Have you tried Greninja? I don't use rain teams often but I did use one with Gren like a few months ago? (I do not have the paste for that team lol, I have the spread for this Gren because its from smogon X) ) with pretty alright results
A very good walkbreaker in rain and even moreso after the Battle Bond Boost I chose Surf over Hydro Pump because I prefer the accuracy of it

I hope this helps
Greninja-Bond (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam

 

[nerdynewt]

I’m calling it now that bulky hydrapple utilizing dragon breath will be a thing. 30% paralysis is nothing to take lightly.

A shame that terapagos probably won’t last in the tier since it’s unlikely the forms will be tiered separately. OU could really use a bulky unpredictable spinner like that.

Hyped to see just how useful psychic noise is or not, there’s potential it’s incredibly powerful being able to shut down walls.

guess you were wrong. dragon breath hydrapple never became a thing.

 

[JackRG]

I think this overlooks the fact that someone piloting Tera Fairy Kingambit has this in mind and would save it as a surprise late game threat, when they would have those Supreme Overlord boosts and could get a SD off- I think 658 Greninja is right in that Tera Blast is a large factor in some of the BS late game threats that seem really overpowered, because the added variance is just to much to safely account for across a game

On another topic, I recently have been trying to experiment with making a rain team work in OU- Barraskewda seems great in practice right now, out speeding even +2 Roaring Moon under rain, but with all the priority running around and having to dedicate a team slot to Pelipper with rain not having other good abusers (Raging Bolt and Tornadus Therian benefit a little but not a ton) it seems I can't get it past upper mid ladder. Anyone have suggestions or also been experimenting with rain?

I've been messing around with a support toxicroak set with max hp and def and foul play as a wellspring counter, been working aight

 

[Bold School]

So what do you think about Dragonite then? I would consider Dragonite as better than Roaring Moon and I have been hearing some discussion about it being really annoying lately. Do you consider Dragonite worse? I am just asking because I find that interesting.

I don't personally think D-nite is that problematic. Roaring Moon actually invalidates things like psychic terrain with its presence. D-nite doesn't seem to be that way. The speed tier is slower, it doesn't use booster energy, and the priority it uses is naturally non-STAB.

Since you will generally into a fair amount of Ghost and Steel types, most teams will have a way to resist that on some level. The items choice also forces a dilemna. You either need boots for multiscale or better hazard support to consistently get the setup opportunities. The former means you generally need to get up more than the single DD multiscale helps you with. The latter means your team comp will either be more telegraphed or D-nite will be less consistent. Getting up only a single DD also makes you more E-speed reliant against faster teams, which has counterplay.

I personally like Life Orb D-nite a lot, but it requires hazard support and none of the moves I run on it are natural STABs. Moves like Ice Spinner and EQ. Some run Fire coverage, but I feel that is actually inferior for most teams unless you plan to go Tera Fire to stop burns. There are always trade offs with D-nite sets and the choices you make. Running 3 attacks means you can't use Encore. Etc.

Anyone have suggestions or also been experimenting with rain?

I have tried Choice Specs Hurricane Talonflame awhile back, but I don't know how that would fair in the current meta.

What do people think of SpD dondozo? Been spamming it a lot, really amazing blanket check especially with tera imo

That sounds like it might be more tuned for balance than stall. Is that correct? I don't really play stall, but I also find the catfish to be too passive for most of my balance teams. It was just a momentum sink. I stopped using Clodsire for a similar reason. Although, if you had to pick one of the two, Dozo would probably be better. Of all the threatening sweepers in OU, most of the scariest ones are physical or mixed. I guess a sp. def Dozo might handle mixed sets better besides Freeze Dry Kyurem.

 

[JackRG]

That sounds like it might be more tuned for balance than stall. Is that correct? I don't really play stall, but I also find the catfish to be too passive for most of my balance teams. It was just a momentum sink. I stopped using Clodsire for a similar reason. Although, if you had to pick one of the two, Dozo would probably be better. Of all the threatening sweepers in OU, most of the scariest ones are physical or mixed. I guess a sp. def Dozo might handle mixed sets better besides Freeze Dry Kyurem.

yeah its exclusively for balance, stall always wants physdef. I've found dondozo is actually really good on balance despite its passivity because it just checks so much, which tbh makes up for it

 

[Moyashi]

yeah its exclusively for balance, stall always wants physdef. I've found dondozo is actually really good on balance despite its passivity because it just checks so much, which tbh makes up for it

Not really? What does it check anymore with spdef (especially check better than other Pokémon meant to check special threats)? Even if you might switch into something, it’s still so passive and a momentum sink that it doesn’t amount to much if anything, and it’s very easy to be forced into exploitable loops as a Dondozo user if it’s not stall.

 

[Delta4]

Have you tried Greninja? I don't use rain teams often but I did use one with Gren like a few months ago? (I do not have the paste for that team lol, I have the spread for this Gren because its from smogon X) ) with pretty alright results
A very good walkbreaker in rain and even moreso after the Battle Bond Boost I chose Surf over Hydro Pump because I prefer the accuracy of it

I hope this helps
Greninja-Bond (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam

Thanks I actually hadn't thought of Greninja, perhaps it could fill the special attacker role on the team over Thunderous-Therian to make the team more offensive- I'll try it out and hopefully it works!

 

[Heatranator]

Not really? What does it check anymore with spdef (especially check better than other Pokémon meant to check special threats)? Even if you might switch into something, it’s still so passive and a momentum sink that it doesn’t amount to much if anything, and it’s very easy to be forced into exploitable loops as a Dondozo user if it’s not stall.

Specially defensive dondozo can take on Pokemon such as iron moth a lot more effectively, basically becoming a win con after a couple of curses. Dozo's teammates are mainly there to remove Pokemon such as raging bolt or waterpon that may threaten dondozo immensely. There's a little joke that for sp.defense dozo teams it's sack 5 and then win with dozo.

 

[tommytt22]

Specially defensive dondozo can take on Pokemon such as iron moth a lot more effectively, basically becoming a win con after a couple of curses. Dozo's teammates are mainly there to remove Pokemon such as raging bolt or waterpon that may threaten dondozo immensely. There's a little joke that for sp.defense dozo teams it's sack 5 and then win with dozo.

Dozo cannot curse on iron moth, even with max spdef careful nature, it takes too much from energy ball, god forbid it's a spA booster which im seeing more frequently. If moth teras you lose to it as well. I think it's far more reliable to just run max def curse. Once special attackers are off the field it's game over. Sometimes easier said than done but using dozo early game as bait to lure booster Pokemon, then carrying Pokemon that can force them out 100% of the time like iron treads vs bolt is a decent strategy.

You really need special attackers gone since even Pokemon like primarina and iron crown can beat the spdef set down via psychic noise regardless, and what's dozo doing back to them? Valiant can encore it and beat it. Walking wake can spam draco on unaware.

The surprise factor is there for end game I guess but really if you're playing against dozo you need to draw it out early to chip it and it'll be pretty obvious something's up via the calcs.

 

[Heatranator]

Dozo cannot curse on iron moth, even with max spdef careful nature, it takes too much from energy ball, god forbid it's a spA booster which im seeing more frequently.

132 SpA Iron Moth Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 180-214 (35.7 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
132 SpA Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 142-168 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Quark Drive Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 201-237 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Even if its booster special attack, dozo can still take its hits alright. Only issue would be if its special attack booster+e-ball, which honestly, isn't the most uncommon thing, but not every moth is going to be it. A lot are speed booster, which dozo does fine against. A lot aren't energy ball and are either d-gleam or tera blast ground. And its job isn't to set curses on these special attackers, but to set up on weaker physical attackers (or even weaker special attackers) and then take one or two decently strong special attackers to contine sweeping.

I think it's far more reliable to just run max def curse. Once special attackers are off the field it's game over.

Specially defensive can still take physical attackers on pretty fine, as after a curse or two, it takes so little damage. But it comes with the added benefit that it can take on a few special attackers briefly to contine sweeping.

You really need special attackers gone since even Pokemon like primarina and iron crown can beat the spdef set down via psychic noise regardless, and what's dozo doing back to them? Valiant can encore it and beat it. Walking wake can spam draco on unaware.

252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 157-186 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- 73% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Iron Crown Psychic Noise vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 111-132 (22 - 26.1%) -- 7% chance to 4HKO
+2 0 Atk Dondozo Waterfall vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 110-130 (34.2 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 0 Atk Dondozo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Crown: 172-204 (53.5 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If primarina is even a bit chipped, then it doesn't beat dozo 1v1. Valiant is not switching in on it as it takes way too much from waterfall to be comfortable, while walking wake is mostly restricted to sun (heavy duty boots variants do like 45% max with draco).

 

[JackRG]

Not really? What does it check anymore with spdef (especially check better than other Pokémon meant to check special threats)? Even if you might switch into something, it’s still so passive and a momentum sink that it doesn’t amount to much if anything, and it’s very easy to be forced into exploitable loops as a Dondozo user if it’s not stall.

Its really good against ghold, val, iron moth, darkrai, and a few others, and it doesn't really lose out on any of things it checks with physdef (albeit its a little worse and taking physical hits). If you are being forced into exploitable loops you haven't used it enough or you aren't building around it correctly. Ting Lu and pecharunt (I like to go tera grass to really bully pon) are good partners to help patch up the problematic pon and bolt MUs

 

[EpicGuy321]

Its really good against ghold, val, iron moth, darkrai, and a few others, and it doesn't really lose out on any of things it checks with physdef (albeit its a little worse and taking physical hits). If you are being forced into exploitable loops you haven't used it enough or you aren't building around it correctly. Ting Lu and pecharunt (I like to go tera grass to really bully pon) are good partners to help patch up the problematic pon and bolt MUs

Not Darkrai because Bad Dreams actually makes it beat you if you rest, not to mention flinch chance.

---

I've been playing around with Ting-Lu recently, and it feels pretty good. It can force stuff out pretty well which is nice. Feels bad into teams with Flying types, though. I've lost games that came down to last mon Ting-Lu at max HP vs 38% HP Lando-T because I can't touch it.

 

[Finchinator]

The SV OU tiering council is discussing Roaring Moon and Gliscor in the current metagame!

Be sure to take a look and even drop your thoughts if you feel strongly: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/views-from-the-council.3733223/page-29#post-10469580

 

[Finchinator]

The SV OU tiering council is discussing Roaring Moon and Gliscor in the current metagame!

Be sure to take a look and even drop your thoughts if you feel strongly: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/views-from-the-council.3733223/page-29#post-10469580

I also want to note that stuff like this is largely why I found it hard to prioritize retest discussions. I was not really able to commit a ton to discussion of these two and only these two Pokemon yet, but the last few weeks saw a big trend in this direction regarding tiering discussions internally and in some tiering adjacent circles, so this is a pretty big priority in my eyes. I am sorry that this came off as dismissive without anything concrete back then -- that was not fair, but I will try to be better at communicating next time.

 

[Moyashi]

132 SpA Iron Moth Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 180-214 (35.7 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
132 SpA Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 142-168 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Quark Drive Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 201-237 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Even if its booster special attack, dozo can still take its hits alright. Only issue would be if its special attack booster+e-ball, which honestly, isn't the most uncommon thing, but not every moth is going to be it. A lot are speed booster, which dozo does fine against. A lot aren't energy ball and are either d-gleam or tera blast ground. And its job isn't to set curses on these special attackers, but to set up on weaker physical attackers (or even weaker special attackers) and then take one or two decently strong special attackers to contine sweeping.

Specially defensive can still take physical attackers on pretty fine, as after a curse or two, it takes so little damage. But it comes with the added benefit that it can take on a few special attackers briefly to contine sweeping.

252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 157-186 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- 73% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Iron Crown Psychic Noise vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 111-132 (22 - 26.1%) -- 7% chance to 4HKO
+2 0 Atk Dondozo Waterfall vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 110-130 (34.2 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 0 Atk Dondozo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Crown: 172-204 (53.5 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If primarina is even a bit chipped, then it doesn't beat dozo 1v1. Valiant is not switching in on it as it takes way too much from waterfall to be comfortable, while walking wake is mostly restricted to sun (heavy duty boots variants do like 45% max with draco).

These calls aren’t impressive like you might think they are. Given Don’s propensity for prior chip it will very quickly be forced to rest, and it’s not a very threatening sweeper when so many teams have mons that force it out. You say it still takes physical hits, but it actually just ends up forced to rest quicker vs those threats, making it easy to exploit and even without that fact, the reality remains that most physical attackers naturally have ways of abusing Don which is why it struggles to do anything of late, as the one role it’s supposedly good for, it can struggle with (and yes I’m referring to knock off mainly but there are other scenarios)

I’d also question how Dondozo is hitting +2 at all as I said, it’s difficult to sit and stay in with it unless it’s very late game where ideally its checks are weakened or gone. Plus Primarina has Encore to just lock it into Curse (many mons do actually), and that Iron Crown scenario is off because Dozo is realistically at +1 as Crown comes in, Crown Psychic Noises, then Volt Switches out, and your Don is heavily chipped.

(this is without considering that running mono attacking don with just water stab is a recipe for disaster in a tier with Wellspring)

Its really good against ghold, val, iron moth, darkrai, and a few others, and it doesn't really lose out on any of things it checks with physdef (albeit its a little worse and taking physical hits). If you are being forced into exploitable loops you haven't used it enough or you aren't building around it correctly. Ting Lu and pecharunt (I like to go tera grass to really bully pon) are good partners to help patch up the problematic pon and bolt MUs

That’s an awfully bold claim to suggest I’m just not using it correctly? If Don is supposedly good why has its usage been so low and its tourney presence almost nonexistent (and when it is brought, it’s almost always stall which covers the passivity flaws). Legit any other bulky water is a better choice on Balance that Don, since they contribute more utility and don’t drop momentum just from switching in (on top of having terrible moveslot issues).