Unpopular opinions

leafsaber47 said:
Toxic as a limited TM now is pretty nebulous in the fact that Umbreon can learn it in Scarlet/Violet (poisonous sweat) but not in BDSP.

Also on the topic of Toxic, I ran it on Sawsbuck during the January 2025 metagame of 35 Pokes because I nicknamed it after a character from Reverse: 1999, Jessica, that is also a deer like Sawsbuck, but has a huge poison theme and Toxic was basically the best move to make that nickname fitting. It was actually somewhat useful to put threats to my team in a Catch-22 situation I feel like: get the hell out of dodge, get Sawsbuck out of their face, or deal with the Toxic timer. Outside of that, there's no real justification for Deerling and Sawsbuck learning Toxic from their debut to USUM.
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Jessica mention!
 
CPU said:
Okay, I'll play this game, since you chime in every single time someone brings up Toxic's reduced distribution (which is a good change, IMO).

First, I'll account for partial trapping moves. I can't be bothered to check how many of these are TMs in Gen 9, but types with a non-exclusive move of this sort are Normal, Fire, Water, Ground, and Bug. These are removed after a few turns or when the user switches out or is KOed.

Toxic, or just the Poison status in general, isn't the only status condition to deal DOT. Burn also exists for Fire and kind of for Ghost. Frostbite also did this for Ice in L:A.

Then there's weather effects! Currently only Sandstorm does this, with a nominal typing of Rock but also benefitting Ground and Steel types. Hail was the more general option for Ice types before the weather got changed to feckless Snow.

Entry hazards come in two flavors: grounded and... floating, I guess. Spikes is Ground-type but has never been specifically tied to it. Toxic Spikes doesn't do direct damage but inflicts [Bad] Poison. Three separate types are immune to this as a result, with it also having the unusual property of disappearing if switched onto by a grounded Poison type. Stealth Rock is a big residual damage move that actually deals typed damage. The only-tied-to-GMax-Copperajah Steelsurge is very similar, but deals Steel-typed damage instead.

Leech Seed is pretty unique; it's learned almost exclusively by Grass Pokémon, and that same type is the only one that's immune to the move (perhaps a little strange, given that it's based on parasitic mistletoe). Curse when used by a Ghost Pokémon is also fairly unique, sacrificing half of the user's health to cause the target to lose 1/4 of it's total HP per turn. Quite substantial, and there are no type immunities to save you from it.

Okay, with all that listed, which types don't have some sort of themed indirect or DOT damage move?

  • Electric: making Electric types immune to Paralysis tells me that the devs want to tie the type to the status, and if they're focusing on Paralysis, it's kind of hard to give it another unique DOT effect. Partial trapping exists in the form of Thunder Cage, but that's exclusive to Regieleki. I think they want Electric to be a Speed-control type, rather than a chip-you-down type. And going first usually gives a pretty notable advantage.
  • Ice: it had Hail as a low-power chip damage source from Gens 3-8, and Frostbite was a fun analog to Burn in L:A. They could add some sort of wintry damage move to the type, but I think the easier solution is to incorporate Frostbite again. As long as Freeze is Ice's only status condition in the main series games, I think it's unlikely that they're going to get a major DOT overhaul.
  • Fighting: assuming that there is some sort of "type code" that Game Freak uses to give types some sort of identity, it seems likely that Fighting probably isn't supposed to rely on DOT. It has a lot of strong STAB options that deal hefty damage, and Fighting Pokémon usually have good coverage options. Even its supporting moves like Brick Break and Rock Smash work to increase direct damage for later attacks. This seems to put defensive Fighting Pokémon in a rough position when they need to try and break through bulky Pokémon, but Body Press is a really clever move addition that allows the type to still be a direct attacker while still benefitting from a tank build. There's also the Fighting-typed Seismic Toss. Set-damage moves may not be a conventional DOT option, but I think they fit the spirit by giving Pokémon without offensive presence the ability to still make progress at a steady rate.
  • Psychic: the lack of passive damage here strikes me as a little odd, as Psychic does have a reputation as a supporting type, but I think there are a few moves to note. The first is Future Sight. Once it got changed to deal typed-damage and had its power increased by half (and its accuracy fixed) it became a nice progress-making move (or at least makes opponents consider the incoming damage). The newly-added Psychic Noise is a direct way to strike back at Pokémon trying to heal off damage (works better than Heal Block ever did). I also have the probably unusual opinion here that Psywave should be re-added as a TM. Its Gen 1 variant had a couple of major issues, but keeping its more modern level-based but variable set damage (along with fixing its accuracy) could make it an interesting damage source for passive Pokémon.
  • Dragon: this type is mostly in the same boat as Fighting with high power STAB moves, and has one of the highest BST averages across types (particularly in offensive stats). Dragon Cheer even exists to make the whole team more powerful now. I don't think they plan on giving the type good residual damage as a whole
  • Dark/Fairy: I'm lumping these together because they both have sneaky, shifty vibes with a lot of their attacks, but lack consistent DOT, which does feel strange, similar to Psychic. I suppose Game Freak might feel like their support moves and additional effects (hello, Knock Off) give them ways of making progress without indirect damage.
  • Steel: It's a bit of an odd type, with its defensive profile being well-known, but lacking type-tied passive damage (I'm going to ignore Steelsurge because it's unlikely to be implemented again until Dynamax returns). Recent gens have given the type a good number of powerful options, even if some of them are niche or sacrificial (Gyro Ball, Heavy Slam, Steel Roller, Steel Beam). The type also benefits quite a bit from Body Press, even if it's not STAB.
That's less than half of all types lacking some well-distributed, typed DOT option. Most of these types either have thematic reasons for lacking them (Fighting, Dragon), or other ways to make progress without it (Psychic, Steel, Dark, Fairy).

RPGs traditionally put heavy emphasis on status effects and passive damage. Pokémon isn't hugely different, but with only 2/5 major status conditions actually inflicting damage, and ways to clear the singular major status condition slot being rare, taking Paralysis to avoid getting hit by Toxic/Wisp (or Poison/Burn generally) later has been a strategy since Gen 1. Pokémon's design a team game also makes DOT effects less generally useful, since you aren't taking that damage when not on the field, and stuff like Confusion, Leech Seed, and Curse are removed by just switching out. I don't watch much VGC but my understanding of doubles is that offensive gameplay is usually much more productive and capable there than singles, giving less room for DOT strategies.

In earlier gens, defensive Pokémon relied a lot on Toxic to make progress, especially in the lower tiers, but I think that was more a result of movesets being more barren and options being simpler. Type interactions have always been king in this game; the more ways Pokémon have to put potential counters at risk, the less you need residual damage (coverage to a point, of course). What I want to see in movepools going forward are more options for debuffing or discouraging setup (or enabling Pokémon to challenge a boosted sweeper once). Give me more tactical ways to deal damage to or scare off a major offensive threat. DOT can be a part of that! I just don't think the situation is nearly as dire after Toxic's distribution culling as you think it is.
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The primary reason I don't personally consider partial trapping a usable replacement is because they are also cleared on the user leaving the field, so they're pretty limited at scaring off a big chunk of stats that can just KO. Somewhat similarly, while I love hazards for other reasons, they very much aren't forcing anything out. Funnily enough, if I could guarantee it would have consistent availability Darkrai might have been enough to give Dark a pass, but that's a separate battery I'm sticking to.

It is worth noting that I consider this to be an issue for ingame as well, which means that GF needs to step up their enemy design for something like Knock Off to swing a type. On the other hand, increasing action denial would work fine ingame but I'm pretty sure the PvP scene will riot if Sleep gets stronger.

Dragon, to me, is the perfect example of why poison worked as the unaligned option while we're waiting for the fixes to get implemented (At the moment I'm only convinced on Poison, Fire, Grass, and Ghost, maybe Ground, Rock, or Electric if I'm feeling generous). Yes, it's designed for brute force (and imo the less enjoyable for it). At the same time, a good number of big mythic reptiles had venom and/or poisonous blood, so to me it never felt out of place from a flavour perspective. I don't feel that Poison (type) needs to have a monopoly on poison (status) to have it as a major part of its identity. There's Toxic Spikes, Venoshock, and Corrosion for that. At some level, I think that Poison's dominance here is only really shown if Toxic is widely distributed: how is anyone supposed to notice that a Poison type uses Toxic better than a non-Poison type if there are barely any non-Posions that can use it at all?
 
My thing about the Eeveelutions is that their lack of coverage gets more and more limiting on their design space if they're just a "type" rather than focusing on other aspects of what they are or look like. Not even just useful coverage the adamant refusal to do more than dip their toes.

Sylveon with Mystical Fire is obviously a useful one, but what about something playing on its Feeler Ribbons, like Power Whip or Wrap since it's shown using them in a prehensile manner in the anime? It wouldn't be "strong" but would give moves that play into Sylveon's design and identity besides "random Fairy". Maybe Espeon can have Detect since multiple dex entries mention its Psychic Powers and sensitive Fur/Tail allow it to anticipate opponents moves/movements, and Detect is a Protect clone based on evading an attack rather than perfect blocking it.

Karxrida said:
I mean they're the exception that proves the rule or whatever. Like 99% of the rest of the list is made up of Pokémon with hands.
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Isn't the only natural learner of FB (i.e. outside TMs or inheritance) a bird?
 
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Flufekinsdworb said:
Guys does snap trap actually do anything?

Like would u run it mabye

I mean ur not using stunfisk-galar anyways but what if
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In SS ZU, it is an option. So yes, you could use it.
 
Karxrida said:
I am being absolutely serious when I say I think Espeon isn't allowed to have Focus Blast because it doesn't have hands.
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The musketeers, Yveltal, Dialga, Arceus, Escavalier, Mudsdale, Solgaleo, Lunala, Falinks, Zacian, Zamazenta, Iron Leaves, and Iron Crown would disagree. Iron Boulder however doesn't.
Bakugames said:
im going thru sickness rn so i cant reply to most things individually but i think to me its a mix of both things. "make new cute pokemon that stay cute if cute pokemon are struggling in meta relevancy" (since new pokemon are easier to balance than buffing old shitters that probably need +500 bst thousand arrows close combat and gen 1 amnesia to be relevant again), even though I think theres more cute pokemon than listed like bolt, chiyu, chienpao. amoonguss, terapagos and tatsugiri but thats my version of cuteness

but also like. if you give espeon/sylveon mystical fire it makes flareon redundant. The correct answer on who to give ice beam to is always vaporeon and never glaceon. i think eeveelutions should never step on the toes of another move wise. If my view is too radical I think eeveelutions can get good coverage, as long as its none of the types of another eeveelution. give them all close combat and earthquake idc
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Flareon is a physical attacker, giving the others a special Fire move doesn't step on its toes at all.
ant4456 said:
Last time you talked about Eeveelutions you kinda just said they're boring and you hate them so I'm not surprised you have this take, but like here's a few counter-arguments:

1. I think Eeveelutions should be allowed to be good competitively because I believe more cute Pokemon should be allowed to be good competitively.

We play in a game where 90% of the good Pokemon are either ugly shitters or just Charizard. It's rare that Game Freak designs cute Pokemon that are good - especially in Doubles where the cute Mythicals are, of course, banned.

I believe every type of design should be at least somewhat represented in the competitive balance. That may sound dumb, but I think it's just better for the game, and it's something Unite does well. If you go to the competitive tier lists for Unite, scrimblos like Gengar, Psyduck, Absol, Aegislash, Zacian and Slowbro can all be top tier.

When you go down the list of usage stats on Pikalytics for this VGC season, number 8 slot is the first Pokemon I think you could argue for, Ogerpon-Hearthflame, which has a crucial flaw: when it Teras the mask hides like 80% of the design. In fact Ogerpon is cute but in any competitive sense its design is hidden behind the "Cool" masks that are supposed to designate the better forms. Before Tera, I would agree and say I like this one.

Next, 14 is Ogerpon-Cornerstone, then 17th Whimsicott. There will be no disputes there, Whimsicott is cute and I'm glad it's here. Indeedee is 19th, though I think that's a rarer mon to enjoy. 26 is Clefairy, 31 is Ogerpon-Wellspring, and that's all for top 40 usage.

So out of the 6 I listed, 3 are just different Ogerpon forms, and there is only one attacker here (which is just the Ogerpons.) Not a lot of variety on this front, and that's 1/10 Pokemon if we count base species.

This isn't a terrible thing or anything, this isn't a travesty. But I do think it's clear that it's the least represented category. Now you can disagree with this, but I think that for such an extremely broad category of Pokemon design it kinda sucks that it's mostly absent from competitive, and the Cute Mon Enjoyers have to latch on every time. Youtubers like Alpharad make Whimsicott their favorite Pokemon because he likes cute shit and it was the only one in the initial Gen 8 format to actually be good pretty much, setting up Fish.
2. Why Eeveelutions

I'm biased of course, but I'm going to give a very practical argument: I understand from prior conversation that you dislike the role Pokemon like Pikachu take in the series, being mostly mascot-fuel corporate PR plastered-plastic upon the walls of each and every corner of the IP. Pikachu appeals broadly to a way that can be almost annoying, its sole purpose is to get a baseline "That's cute" reply, or maybe a rare "That's cool" like its exclusive moves from the anime.

But that's just the thing, most of the "cute mon" archetypes we get in Pokemon media widely are pre-evolutions and obviously shit, Clefairy as an exception.

I'd argue there are 8 fully-evolved (or single stage, in the original Dex; ie. Chansey counts here) broadly understandable "Cute Pokemon" in the entire Kanto dex, and even then I think you could cut it. ie. if you believe Ninetales is more regal and "elegant" than cute, I'd not necessarily disagree. This includes shitters like Wigglytuff (also was meta in Unite btw, that's where I started to like the Pokemon when I mained it) and the three Eeveelutions included.

There simply aren't that many cute final evolutions in Pokemon, as anyone who broadly prefers Cute Pokemon would probably find trying to teambuild. And of those that exist, most of them are dogshit. Meganium, Furret, Ampharos, Azumarill, Quagsire, Espeon and Umbreon, Blissey. We got a few winners in here, mostly in singles - Blissey has not had much a career in VGC, and Azumarill has existed in short bursts. Quagsire is not needed in the official format whatsoever, and in singles it's still a Pokemon that goes all around. Ampharos is depressingly shit, Meganium is a Pokemon known for being bad unlike its two "cool" and "terrifying" cousin starters, Furret is probably one of the worst rats if not the worst rat in series history - while also being one of the cutest.

Delcatty is dogshit. Mawile is bad without its Mega. Flygon is vastly outclassed. Altaria without its mega is shit, and even with it its still a bit underwhelming at times. Milotic is good, if you count it, Absol is bad, Mega included. If you want some good Hoenn Pokemon though you can pop out with a Swampert, Metagross, Salamence, Pelipper, Blaziken, etc.

I don't dislike those Pokemon, but like there is a disparity.

So this doesn't really get at the question because you can easily say "Just make these Pokemon good instead" and I actually agree, but in a lot of these cases it just doesn't fit the Game Freak Buff Purview. Delcatty would need probably several-hundred BST increase, or just super optimized. Mawile they're not gonna buff again, Mega reliant for life, and it can't get an Evolution either. Hopefully Flygon gets its Mega, but I doubt it. Altaria hasn't been buffed outside of moves in a long time, and Milotic is fine. Absol would need a large BST increase and maybe even a second STAB, hopefully a Mega buff.

TLDR: Eeveelutions are actually in a pretty good place because most of them, with Flareon exceptions, only really need moves or abilities. Glaceon has Kyurem Special Attack but it's walled by NU because it has Water Pulse to hit Fire-Types and Mud Shot for Ground-Types, plus needs to make a prediction, and its abilities are ass.

Espeon is really not that far behind say, Alakazam or other Psychic contemporaries on the surface. 110 Speed is a classic speed tier that is still used for plenty of new viable Pokemon to this day, like Ogerpon. Magic Bounce is pretty good, though mismatched for its role, and 130 Special Attack is a doozy. But what it lacks with its single STAB is a reliable way to actually get past its checks. It has coverage on paper, like Glaceon actually, but it's all really low level versions of coverage that only really help enough with 4x weakness. Alakazam gets a lotta bullshit, probably the most notable being Focus Blast, obviously an amazing move for an Offensive Psychic that is frail to be able to use. Without it, it just gets walled by most Darks - Alluring Voice (new addition, before it had to rely on Draining Kiss) is not stopping Kingambit from switching in and absolutely dominating it.

When Hidden Power was around, Jolteon had the interesting niche in singles of its Speed with Hidden Power to mix up its coverage. With them gone, it has no real options. It's actually in a not terrible spot for its typing and build - Regieleki has proven that the solo-Electric screen setter with speed control can do it, and while it is obviously outclassed by Regieleki in every way right now, giving it some coverage would help it not be entirely unviable, and likely give it a niche in Doubles. And give it Reflect too while you're at it lol.

I'll go a step further than just the competitive scene.

Even in the context of the singleplayer games, the Eeveelutions are dogshit. Let alone the fact that all of the Cute Mons I've previously listed are support roles in Doubles or a Legendary Pokemon. Okay, you wanna use them in singleplayer - yeah, every Pokemon can technically do the job, sure.

But have you fucking seen Scarlet/Violet movepools? Playing Radical Red recently taught me how much random shit you get just by leveling up nowadays.

Floragato gets Seed Bomb at Level 20 (excellent STAB), U-Turn at Level 24 (EVEN IN SINGLEPLAYER VERY USEFUL), Play Rough at 42 or if you evolve it first you get that at Level 47. Then you get Knock Off at Level 52, which is still not even the endgame in Scarlet/Violet. Through TMs it gets basically fucking anything too.

Well, that's just a Starter, right? Think again lol look at Salazzle.

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In Scarlet/Violet you can get this encounter near the early parts of the game. Now, ignoring the fact that this literally has *almost* a set for you, if you were to do a normal training of this mon... You level it up to 25 in a game with Exp. Share and it gets fucking Nasty Plot. 5 more levels and you get Incinerate. 7 more and you get Venoshock. Both mid sure I guess, but then they make up for it by giving you Dragon Pulse through Level Up soon after, and Flamethrower at 51 which finishes out your 4 moveslots for you.

Game Freak just hands you a sweeper competitive moveset that's basically finished lol.

You do have mid AF mons like Tsareena still nowadays, and Gen 7 being slow in general haha the meme. But uh, that's why they buffed it with good moves. Beyond that non-point, yes they should buff other non-Cute Pokemon too Yes,

Eeveelutions are lowkey dogshit look at this:

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This is Sylveon's level-up movepool in Generation 9. This is the most viable competitive Eeveelution and it gets it sfirst STAB move at Level 30. It gets its second at Level 50.

It's not even good at showcasing the archetype of the type, which I'm sure will be an argument. "Eeveelutions have to embody their type so it's against the design to give them coverage" in a singleplayer context it's so bad that they don't even get their STABs.

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As a counter-example, Vaporeon is better getting actual STAB moves and Haze is interesting, I do not have that many problems with this one especially since it still has the Ice Beam TM, it feels like a fairly solid bulky Water in the context of a singleplayer playthrough.

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Here is the like 5th most Popular Pokemon as of TPC's official 2020 public poll. This shit's ass and frankly Umbreon doesn't even really function like most Dark-Type Pokemon, so I still don't agree with anything like "It needs to have the sanctity of its original purpose".

Its design isn't even for Dark-Type they made it for Poison anyways!

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Even if you would say this is "ok" this is frankly dogshit with modern Pokemon, including Vaporeon.

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Nowadays we have signature bullshit moves on every new Pokemon and they get half their coverage with zero TMs. Your Palafin is walled by a Grass-Type? No problem here is Acrobatics, plus one of the strongest Base Power physical Water moves. For TMs you get all the coverage under the sun.

"Palafin is hard to get and it has to switch out"

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Here is Clawitzer, two-stage mon (where the first stage isn't useless) that just gives you all of the coverage for free.

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Azumarill gets Bounce coverage (genuinely useful in PvE), Superpower, 90 BP physical move at level 21 (or Bubble Beam at Level 6, which matches Vaporeon's Water Pulse at like Level 25) and it has a second STAB + Huge Power.

What I'm trying to say is Eeveelutions are fucking washed and they need help. They barely even reflect their types because half of them have the wrong spreads and half of them are outclassed by Pokemon you get on the first route.

The time of Eeveelutions being pristine "solid" picks that round out a singleplayer team are long behind us. I wouldn't recommend literally any Eeveelution for a Singleplayer team outside of you just liking the Pokemon, because why pick Espeon when you can pick up Gardevoir and it's lowkey easier to train than Eevee -> Espeon.

You know what Fairy AND Psychic type gets Mystical Fire?!?!?!

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Calm Mind Psychic Moonblasts Mystical Fire just from level up btw.

3. How I'd buff Eeveelutions

Frankly, most of them are lost causes even with buffs but I'd like Sylveon to get Mystical Fire back, Jolteon to get some coverage (not sure which), Espeon to get something that hits Tyranitar holy fuck its 2025, and I'd like just about all of them to get buffs to their movesets for singleplayer too.

Espeon should also get Mystical Fire to be fucking frank, they literally made merchandise of a Mismagius Outfitted Espeon.

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It is genuinely harder to train most Eeveelutions than 3-Stagers with bad babies because most of them take forever to get "online".

Leafeon should be given at least a shot with Chlorophyll since its stats are solid, give it something like Weather Ball for a mixed attack or some other Fire Coverage, maybe give it Victory Dance or something. Anything! Ice Spinner??

Give Umbreon Knock Off for fucks sake, it already does 0 damage at least that's some interesting utility that also represents the Dark-Type better, and give it Nasty Plot. Not because it's probably even that good, but because that's more interesting for the mon and represents the type.

I'd like most Eeveelution secondary abilities to change if it fits. I've never felt that Umbreon's HA makes sense, Inner Focus does not seem to do anything for it or ever come up in its design. If you want to lean into the Poison origins, especially in 2025 companies love that kind of thing, give it Poison Point. Jolteon's first ability is significantly better than its HA and that's fine, but I feel like it should likely be given Static instead. etc. etc. etc.

4. Some Other Cute Pokemon I Want Buffed

-Give Ampharos its Part Dragon Type from the Mega, also give it a buff to SpA, and give it a bulk buff in both forms

-Can we please just make Altaria Dragon Fairy for realsies, maybe giving it Pixelate too. It's not like this invalidates the mega since it still has bad stats. It'd transition well with being an old Normal Type.

-If you're like me who thinks Ninetales is cute, can we give them some fucking Special Attack please. Using them in Singleplayer is genuinely dreadful, their movepool is hard to work with especially in the early days and they're generally immediately outclassed. I'm not a fan of Arcanine but that mon is just objectively better than Ninetales in every way in singleplayer, and honestly in competitive it still has a better history of success.

-Give Delcatty literally anything

-Why does Bellossom exist as it is

-I tried to use Pachirisu in BDSP with level caps and it was fucking atrocious. Please make at least some of the Pika clones not dogshit

-Can we give Furret a crumb of stats and ability

-Meowstic is genuinely awful in singleplayer while also not being good in competitive either. Please buff this mon


Also if we're gonna start giving out Mythicals like candy can we let them be in VGC now. Please ty
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Espeon has always, since the move's creation, been able to learn Dazzling Gleam. It was never reliant of Draining Kiss for Fairy coverage.

Meowstic was good in gen 6 and kind of 7, it just fell out of favor when Indeedee came in gen 8 and was just it but better.
CPU said:
Okay, I'll play this game, since you chime in every single time someone brings up Toxic's reduced distribution (which is a good change, IMO).

First, I'll account for partial trapping moves. I can't be bothered to check how many of these are TMs in Gen 9, but types with a non-exclusive move of this sort are Normal, Fire, Water, Ground, and Bug. These are removed after a few turns or when the user switches out or is KOed.

Toxic, or just the Poison status in general, isn't the only status condition to deal DOT. Burn also exists for Fire and kind of for Ghost. Frostbite also did this for Ice in L:A.

Then there's weather effects! Currently only Sandstorm does this, with a nominal typing of Rock but also benefitting Ground and Steel types. Hail was the more general option for Ice types before the weather got changed to feckless Snow.

Entry hazards come in two flavors: grounded and... floating, I guess. Spikes is Ground-type but has never been specifically tied to it. Toxic Spikes doesn't do direct damage but inflicts [Bad] Poison. Three separate types are immune to this as a result, with it also having the unusual property of disappearing if switched onto by a grounded Poison type. Stealth Rock is a big residual damage move that actually deals typed damage. The only-tied-to-GMax-Copperajah Steelsurge is very similar, but deals Steel-typed damage instead.

Leech Seed is pretty unique; it's learned almost exclusively by Grass Pokémon, and that same type is the only one that's immune to the move (perhaps a little strange, given that it's based on parasitic mistletoe). Curse when used by a Ghost Pokémon is also fairly unique, sacrificing half of the user's health to cause the target to lose 1/4 of it's total HP per turn. Quite substantial, and there are no type immunities to save you from it.

Okay, with all that listed, which types don't have some sort of themed indirect or DOT damage move?

  • Electric: making Electric types immune to Paralysis tells me that the devs want to tie the type to the status, and if they're focusing on Paralysis, it's kind of hard to give it another unique DOT effect. Partial trapping exists in the form of Thunder Cage, but that's exclusive to Regieleki. I think they want Electric to be a Speed-control type, rather than a chip-you-down type. And going first usually gives a pretty notable advantage.
  • Ice: it had Hail as a low-power chip damage source from Gens 3-8, and Frostbite was a fun analog to Burn in L:A. They could add some sort of wintry damage move to the type, but I think the easier solution is to incorporate Frostbite again. As long as Freeze is Ice's only status condition in the main series games, I think it's unlikely that they're going to get a major DOT overhaul.
  • Fighting: assuming that there is some sort of "type code" that Game Freak uses to give types some sort of identity, it seems likely that Fighting probably isn't supposed to rely on DOT. It has a lot of strong STAB options that deal hefty damage, and Fighting Pokémon usually have good coverage options. Even its supporting moves like Brick Break and Rock Smash work to increase direct damage for later attacks. This seems to put defensive Fighting Pokémon in a rough position when they need to try and break through bulky Pokémon, but Body Press is a really clever move addition that allows the type to still be a direct attacker while still benefitting from a tank build. There's also the Fighting-typed Seismic Toss. Set-damage moves may not be a conventional DOT option, but I think they fit the spirit by giving Pokémon without offensive presence the ability to still make progress at a steady rate.
  • Psychic: the lack of passive damage here strikes me as a little odd, as Psychic does have a reputation as a supporting type, but I think there are a few moves to note. The first is Future Sight. Once it got changed to deal typed-damage and had its power increased by half (and its accuracy fixed) it became a nice progress-making move (or at least makes opponents consider the incoming damage). The newly-added Psychic Noise is a direct way to strike back at Pokémon trying to heal off damage (works better than Heal Block ever did). I also have the probably unusual opinion here that Psywave should be re-added as a TM. Its Gen 1 variant had a couple of major issues, but keeping its more modern level-based but variable set damage (along with fixing its accuracy) could make it an interesting damage source for passive Pokémon.
  • Dragon: this type is mostly in the same boat as Fighting with high power STAB moves, and has one of the highest BST averages across types (particularly in offensive stats). Dragon Cheer even exists to make the whole team more powerful now. I don't think they plan on giving the type good residual damage as a whole
  • Dark/Fairy: I'm lumping these together because they both have sneaky, shifty vibes with a lot of their attacks, but lack consistent DOT, which does feel strange, similar to Psychic. I suppose Game Freak might feel like their support moves and additional effects (hello, Knock Off) give them ways of making progress without indirect damage.
  • Steel: It's a bit of an odd type, with its defensive profile being well-known, but lacking type-tied passive damage (I'm going to ignore Steelsurge because it's unlikely to be implemented again until Dynamax returns). Recent gens have given the type a good number of powerful options, even if some of them are niche or sacrificial (Gyro Ball, Heavy Slam, Steel Roller, Steel Beam). The type also benefits quite a bit from Body Press, even if it's not STAB.
That's less than half of all types lacking some well-distributed, typed DOT option. Most of these types either have thematic reasons for lacking them (Fighting, Dragon), or other ways to make progress without it (Psychic, Steel, Dark, Fairy).

RPGs traditionally put heavy emphasis on status effects and passive damage. Pokémon isn't hugely different, but with only 2/5 major status conditions actually inflicting damage, and ways to clear the singular major status condition slot being rare, taking Paralysis to avoid getting hit by Toxic/Wisp (or Poison/Burn generally) later has been a strategy since Gen 1. Pokémon's design a team game also makes DOT effects less generally useful, since you aren't taking that damage when not on the field, and stuff like Confusion, Leech Seed, and Curse are removed by just switching out. I don't watch much VGC but my understanding of doubles is that offensive gameplay is usually much more productive and capable there than singles, giving less room for DOT strategies.

In earlier gens, defensive Pokémon relied a lot on Toxic to make progress, especially in the lower tiers, but I think that was more a result of movesets being more barren and options being simpler. Type interactions have always been king in this game; the more ways Pokémon have to put potential counters at risk, the less you need residual damage (coverage to a point, of course). What I want to see in movepools going forward are more options for debuffing or discouraging setup (or enabling Pokémon to challenge a boosted sweeper once). Give me more tactical ways to deal damage to or scare off a major offensive threat. DOT can be a part of that! I just don't think the situation is nearly as dire after Toxic's distribution culling as you think it is.
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Clamp and Whirlpool no longer exist. Clamp as of SwSh and Whirlpool as of SV. All other binding moves bar Fire Spin and the Regieleki exclusive Thunder Cage are bad, inaccurate and weak.
 
AztecCroc said:
Clamp and Whirlpool no longer exist. Clamp as of SwSh and Whirlpool as of SV. All other binding moves bar Fire Spin and the Regieleki exclusive Thunder Cage are bad, inaccurate and weak.
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Move removal is bad and I would like to ignore it as much as possible :psyglad:. And uh, Whirlpool exists in SV, it's in the base game and is even a TM after the DLC. If you're going to "um actually" me please take the time to double-check what you're trying to correct me on. Clamp is removed, but it had 5 learners total and is kind of worse than Whirlpool as it's a contact move (though I suppose Barbaracle could make "use" of that with Tough Claws).

Also Sand Tomb/Whirlpool have identical stats to Fire Spin so I'm not sure what you're saying. Infestation is worse for damage, but perfect accuracy is actually a pretty big deal for partial trapping moves. Wrap and Bind are mediocre (Wrap at least has marginally better accuracy than Fire Spin and its elemental ilk) but direct damage isn't really the point of these moves (not that it hurts).
 
Flufekinsdworb said:
Guys does snap trap actually do anything?

Like would u run it mabye

I mean ur not using stunfisk-galar anyways but what if
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Trapping moves are always fun for messing up opponents.

It's a shame they're usually very weak and inaccurate. The damage is kind of fine, they're not supposed to be your main STAB outside of lol Thunder Cage and Magma Storm, but for example, this is what Rental Lapras could do in Stadium 2.

1742890466470.png

:row: This is devious work :trode:

Even without obvious bs like that, the momentum you get off a trap is tremendous because you can switch something into an advantageous position unless they have a pivoting move.
 
girazard said:
Flareon, Espeon and Umbreon getting Zap Cannon in gen2 was rad as hell. Let them have coverage but make them niche as - Zap Cannon, Mystical Fire, Foul Play, Bullet Seed, Psychic Fangs...cool shit.
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Wait, Flareon got it in Gen II? Wtf, how have I only just learned this.

...probably because I've never actually used Flareon in GSC, actually. But that's a really cool addition.

Am definitely in "let them have more" camp though. Jolteon has always kind of sucked as an attacker because its movepool is so barren: it's always had Pin Missile and Double Kick, but even if its Attack wasn't so poor they'd still be awful. Pretty much its only other options are Signal Beam and Shadow Ball which are better than nothing but it's very much a one-trick pony/dog/thing.

pika pal said:
Maybe Espeon can have Detect since multiple dex entries mention its Psychic Powers and sensitive Fur/Tail allow it to anticipate opponents moves/movements, and Detect is a Protect clone based on evading an attack rather than perfect blocking it.
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Apologies if I'm telling you something you know already, but Detect has been an egg move for Eevee since gen V (though it would, admittedly, be nice if Espeon learned it naturally). I feel like Wish is a move Eevee should learn by itself too (perhaps at an absurdly high level as a twisted reward for keeping it unevolved so long, it's a far better prize than Trump Card) but maybe I'm letting my irritation at how long breeding Wish Eevee takes in most games override my judgement.
 
QuentinQuonce said:
Apologies if I'm telling you something you know already, but Detect has been an egg move for Eevee since gen V (though it would, admittedly, be nice if Espeon learned it naturally). I feel like Wish is a move Eevee should learn by itself too (perhaps at an absurdly high level as a twisted reward for keeping it unevolved so long, it's a far better prize than Trump Card) but maybe I'm letting my irritation at how long breeding Wish Eevee takes in most games override my judgement.
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Admittedly I didn't check the closest since I was just looking for quick ideas that didn't appear in their level up movepool to go over the overall point (and also why my Sylveon examples were flavor focused since even Mystical Fire was a TM, albeit a fitting one). Detect does feel odd as an Egg Move vs an Espeon Level-up Move so I half-count it, but that was an oversight on my part.
 
The Eeveelutions having bad coverage feels like a relic from an era when movesets had a lot more care put into them and weren’t homogenized to hell and back. It’s just incompatible with the current way movesets are put together. If GF isn’t willing to go back and revise movesets, then I don’t think there’s a compelling reason to block them off from coverage when very few other ‘mons have such an arbitrary restriction.
 
Worldie said:
Have you guys ever considered the fact that maybe GameFreaks doesn't care that Eevolutions are not competitively viable since their only job is being cute and sell plushies?
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Getting a Chikorita-tier rep doesn't exactly help with those.

The reason is close, but more obvious than you think. There's over a thousand mons, many of which, like Pidgeot, are in an utterly unsalvageable state. So, especially considering the deadlines, they're just letting stuff slide because it's too much work to go over each mon individually.
 
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
The reason is close, but more obvious than you think. There's over a thousand mons, many of which, like Pidgeot, are in an utterly unsalvageable state. So, especially considering the deadlines, they're just letting stuff slide because it's too much work to go over each mon individually.
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That is part of the issue, but honestly I am pretty serious when I say that I hardly doubt they care that their mascot's evolution (not even the mascot itself, the evolutions!) aren't viable.

There is a reason Eevee and Pikachu got both G-max forms and dedicated Z-moves and their evolutions did not. If they remotely had any interest in making the evolutions viable, those would have given at least something to them, but they didn't. They couldn have transferred the Let's Go moves to the mainline, but they didn't (and as we saw with the Genies moves, if they have any interest in it, they will implement spinoff unique moves in the main games).

Eevolutions being PvP viable isn't in their list of important stuff. Maybe it isn't in their list of even "relevant" stuff. Accept it, the viability of eevolutions will always only be incidental, direct buffs to make them show up in VGC aren't and never will be a factor.
 
Worldie said:
That is part of the issue, but honestly I am pretty serious when I say that I hardly doubt they care that their mascot's evolution (not even the mascot itself, the evolutions!) aren't viable.
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This is a bad take because Eevee itself isn't that popular lol

Both Sylveon and Umbreon are in the Top 10 most popular Pokemon from the 2020 polling, and they still prioritize those in a lot of media.

Also the take on "don't care about viability" is also bad because they give their mascots all kinds of fucking bullshit.

Pikachu gets: Knock Off, Play Rough, Grass Knot, Fake Out, Surf, Iron Tail, Endeavor, Brick Break, Alluring Voice, Body Slam and more + basically every Electric STAB.

Charizard gets: Ancient Power, Body Slam, Brick Break, Crunch, Dragon Claw / Pulse / Tail, Earthquake, Focus Blast, Outrage, Rock Slide, Scorching Sand, Shadow Claw, Thunder Punch, Weather Ball, Breaking Swipe, Bulldoze, Solar Beam + Fire and Flying STAB.

Lucario gets: Body Slam, Crunch, Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse, Earthquake, Extreme Speed, Ice Punch, Poison Jab, Psychic, Rock Slide, Shadow Ball / Claw, Stone Edge, Thunder Punch, Zen Headbutt, Bulldoze, Aerial Ace, shit like Water Pulse, and it has probably the best STAB options you could want. Bullet Punch, Close Combat, Drain Punch, Focus Blast, High Jump Kick, Low Kick, Low Sweep, etc.

I'd go as far as to say Game Freak explicitly designs it so that their mascot Pokemon are competitive nowadays. With the exception of Gen 7, 3/4 Gens since VGC started getting steam have had a Protean starter with insane coverage, good Speed and Attack. More than that, most of them got good support moves or were just good supports in general.

Game Freak also knows that good Pokemon in-game reflects in their popularity generally lol, people like Pokemon that do well, and Eeveelutions used to.
 
i mean eevee is still insanely popular by itself. the thing is that pokemon is so big, that those high categories have insane gaps between each other. its why i think people think pokemon like raichu and flygon are "unpopular" when they both have really good appearances + merch accessibility + are a ton of peoples favorites: theyre only comparing it to the titans of pokemon like pika and zard and not to the overall franchise. its like if i said keroppi was unpopular because it doesnt get as much merch as cinnamonroll does, but keroppi is still really popular and i could buy merch of him easily, while other mascots of sanrio have had barely any appearances
 
my unpopular opinion about pokemon design popularity is that a lot of people focus way too much on the west. you see a lot of takes of people just saying some design is ugly and nobody anywhere likes it just because they personally don't or their region doesn't.

very unpopular in the west apparently: Barbaracle
very popular in Japan tho: also Barbaracle

Japan seems to appreciate the Kaijumons and weirdos a lot more than the west does, where if you just look at what the west like its all just cool and cute.
 
Mega Lucario is a way better design than vanilla Lucario ever has been because it's so over the top it actually looks cool and its legs don't make me uncomfortable as the later did even as a child.

Bakugames said:
i mean eevee is still insanely popular by itself. the thing is that pokemon is so big, that those high categories have insane gaps between each other. its why i think people think pokemon like raichu and flygon are "unpopular" when they both have really good appearances + merch accessibility + are a ton of peoples favorites: theyre only comparing it to the titans of pokemon like pika and zard and not to the overall franchise. its like if i said keroppi was unpopular because it doesnt get as much merch as cinnamonroll does, but keroppi is still really popular and i could buy merch of him easily, while other mascots of sanrio have had barely any appearances
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This. Eevee is literally a Pokemon that was made into a box mascot years later. It's ridiculous to pretend it is not supposed to be one nowadays or that it isn't crazy popular enough for it to happen to begin with. It isn't like they randomly picked any mon as a subtitute for Psyduck in Let's Go or like if it didn't get attention prior to that game.

CynicalGiant said:
my unpopular opinion about pokemon design popularity is that a lot of people focus way too much on the west. you see a lot of takes of people just saying some design is ugly and nobody anywhere likes it just because they personally don't or their region doesn't.

very unpopular in the west apparently: Barbaracle
very popular in Japan tho: also Barbaracle

Japan seems to appreciate the Kaijumons and weirdos a lot more than the west does, where if you just look at what the west like its all just cool and cute.
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It's crazy that in literally the biggest brand in the world you have people arguing "X is no one's favourite, why do they give attention?". Like, no? Stadistically there is someone out there who loves that Pokemon and is their absolute favourite. There is probably some fanboy of that same mon you find absolutely redundant.

Hell, just by playing SV and because of random inside memes all of me, my brother and my ex partner ended up liking fucking Pawmo the most of its line. My little brother literally refused to evolve it.

I'm sorry to tell you this, Bob, but there is someone out there whose favourite Pokemon is Vanilluxe, Trubbish or Klefki and you are not changing their minds.
 
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