np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 17 - Dancing in the Moonlight

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Brigtel said:
I don't mean any disrespect, but this is a terrible reason to vote do not ban. Your vote is based on two points that do not deal with the substance of this suspect test in any way. Is Roaring Moon broken, or not? And why, and how? You offer no attempt to anser answer these questions, so you basically have no opinion on this suspect test. And similarly, no one will be more informed on what to vote by reading your post. No matter which way you end up voting, I encourage you to rethink your position.
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No problem, there is no disrespect in your message. However, I think you have misinterpreted my post, I do have an opinion. I may not have developed it sufficiently, but I think that this opinion was quite implicit: if I am opposed to this suspect test, and will vote against the ban, it is obviously because I do not consider Roaring Moon to be broken enough to be put before the firing squad before other Pokémon that perhaps deserve it more.

Now, since you're asking me to go into a little more detail, I do not have a tremendous amount of arguments, but here's my humble opinion on the mon itself. Yes, Roaring Moon is dangerous. Great bulk, hits hard, and its use of the Tera makes it particularly confusing, but the latter is a problem that doesn't apply specifically to Roaring Moon (other Pokémon, like Kingambit for example, are just as broken in my opinion when it comes to the way they use the Tera). Now, Roaring Moon benefits also from a great movepool, and one great asset is its access to Taunt. This is an option that can allow a Hyper Offense to eliminate Unaware Pokémon. So, this makes it broken in the eyes of some, but in my opinion, it is something that favours archetypes that I like to see in a meta. Now, if we go to the complete opposite of HO, well, Stall would look much better without Roaring Moon. And there, I disagree. I think about Gliscor for example (it has been mentioned several times), and it will be definitely more broken if we remove a Taunt-using set-up sweeper from the meta. This brings me back to my original comment: Gliscor, for instance, is no less broken than Roaring Moon in my opinion. So I don't agree with banning Roaring Moon and leaving Gliscor alone. I don't agree with banning Roaring Moon and leaving Kingambit alone. I don't agree with banning Roaring Moon and leaving Kyurem alone. I don't agree with this suspect test, that's what I tried to comment. And I insist: I may be wrong :eeveehide:
 
Pudistours said:
No problem, there is no disrespect in your message. However, I think you have misinterpreted my post, I do have an opinion. I may not have developed it sufficiently, but I think that this opinion was quite implicit: if I am opposed to this suspect test, and will vote against the ban, it is obviously because I do not consider Roaring Moon to be broken enough to be put before the firing squad before other Pokémon that perhaps deserve it more.

Now, since you're asking me to go into a little more detail, I do not have a tremendous amount of arguments, but here's my humble opinion on the mon itself. Yes, Roaring Moon is dangerous. Great bulk, hits hard, and its use of the Tera makes it particularly confusing, but the latter is a problem that doesn't apply specifically to Roaring Moon (other Pokémon, like Kingambit for example, are just as broken in my opinion when it comes to the way they use the Tera). Now, Roaring Moon benefits also from a great movepool, and one great asset is its access to Taunt. This is an option that can allow a Hyper Offense to eliminate Unaware Pokémon. So, this makes it broken in the eyes of some, but in my opinion, it is something that favours archetypes that I like to see in a meta. Now, if we go to the complete opposite of HO, well, Stall would look much better without Roaring Moon. And there, I disagree. I think about Gliscor for example (it has been mentioned several times), and it will be definitely more broken if we remove a Taunt-using set-up sweeper from the meta. This brings me back to my original comment: Gliscor, for instance, is no less broken than Roaring Moon in my opinion. So I don't agree with banning Roaring Moon and leaving Gliscor alone. I don't agree with banning Roaring Moon and leaving Kingambit alone. I don't agree with banning Roaring Moon and leaving Kyurem alone. I don't agree with this suspect test, that's what I tried to comment. And I insist: I may be wrong :eeveehide:
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It is big 2025 and there are still people who think banning even 1 mon will launch stall into the "good" category (insert laughing crying emoji), when at the moment its by far the worst major playstyle and it's not particularly close either unless you count semi stall which is probably the worst since it functionally almost doesn't exist. There are so many stall breaker options in the game, its difficult to make a team that loses to stall, 90% of viable teams can beat stall without even prepping for it because in SV generally speaking as long as you can break balance you can break stall it will just take longer. HO has literal auto win mons vs stall like Manaphy, Gholdengo with NP psyshock dgleam tera fairy, Kingambit, among other mons and keep in mind YOU CAN PAIR THESE TOGETHER LOL. Thinking stall is gonna magically become super good or even just "good" when there are UNIRONICALLY 16 different stall breakers is just a self report on your knowledge of the ou tier lol. Even in SPL where stall is at it's best as you don't have to worry about the overall tier because you are prepping for 1 player, stall iirc is either even or negative by 1 or 2 games.
 
Please don't try to make me say something I didn't. I never said that Stall would become the ultimate, shining archetype after Roaring Moon was banned. I'm just pointing out that Roaring Moon is an excellent Stallbreaker and that, on that point, I'd rather see him in the ring than out of it. Nothing more. Because while the competitive aspect is important, the attractiveness of the meta is just as important in my opinion and I think that Roaring Moon encourages Hyper Offense, and Hyper Offense will always contribute to the meta's attractiveness. That is totally subjective, of course.

Anyway, I admit I don't have much more to add, so I will reiterate my comment and keep it simple: as a humble player who obtained the reqs, giving my humble opinion, well, I just feel that Roaring Moon is cool, and that it is more attractive than it is broken. Which is not the case with Gliscor (or others), by way of comparison. And that was the main point of my initial message, which I have tried to develop a little more, since I was urged to do so, but basically, I do not agree with making Roaring Moon a priority when (again, in my opinion) other Pokémon are a bigger nuisance. So I will go against this ban.

I wish you all an excellent Sunday and I am sure we will manage to find the best thing to do! :blobthumbsup:
 
Finished reqs recently after breaking due to a previous attempt going poorly, stepped back to cool off and came back with a refreshed mindset. Anyways I don't know that I have much to add that hasn't been said about what makes Roaring Moon too much for the tier at this point. I think it's best summarized as this: Roaring Moon is too polarizing of a Pokemon for how immediately powerful it is that it forces the opponent to make correct plays against it, without knowing what set or Tera it's even running. There's not enough of an acceptable margin of error vs Moon, as making the wrong call vs it or simply getting matched up into a Moon set that you could not feasibly prepare for while also prepping for all the other powerful threats in the tier, is too punishing. It's much too strong of a Pokemon to be something that you have to risk scouting vs because that one wrong turn can allow it more set up, if not just the chance to blow holes in your team outright.

There's this mentality from some players I've seen that, "Moon isn't the only Pokemon that's unpredictable or possesses high set variety", and that's true to an extent. However the difference is that those Pokemon, while capable of unpredictability, have generally an acceptable amount of counterplay despite this and there's room to midground against them, or you'll have firm checks and soft checks stacked together which can offer enough wiggle room to dance around them well enough. These other versatile Pokemon also have greater flaws hindering them from simply bowling over everything easily.

Kingambit? Naturally incredibly slow and vulnerable to many common attacking types in the tier and against prepared teams, cannot easily make fast progress. Iron Valiant? Very frail and lacking in OHKO power even boosted, and often forced to burn booster to check something offensively, diminishing its own offensive threat. Dragonite? Low starting power and dependence on Multiscale for set up can be exploited, and no moveset it runs will ever solve enough bad match ups.

Roaring Moon however is incredibly strong out of the gate, and boosting both speed and attack at once makes revenge killing it incredibly difficult without priority, which also can fail to be reliable into the bulky variants. Its set variety is a problem that is compounded by the fact that we do not have nearly enough overlapping counterplay to make it palatable. Some players point to the increase in Galar Weezing and Unaware Clefable as a sign of the meta adapting, but I would strongly disagree. Gweezing is not a particularly easy fit on teams because of its passivity while Unaware Clef gives up the better MG Clef which has greater applications against more of the meta, and building with Unaware forces specific building structures to accommodate its new hazards and passive damage vulnerabilities it didn't have with MG (and it still loses to Tera Ground Moon anyways). Corviknight is probably the best against most Moon variants and is a strong pick atm, but still loses to Tera Fairy Taunt sets.

It's too polarizing and it's too oppressive into too many teams, putting too much strain on a builder which is already being stretched by the amount of threats teams need to prep for as is. I'm very firmly voting BAN on Roaring Moon.
 
The ladder period for Roaring Moon's suspect has concluded. You may now cast your vote here if you qualified!

Thank you to all of the following users for participating in our process and I will now be closing the discussion threads. Consider this your reminder and request to vote. PM me with questions.

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Disclaimer: this is not an April Fools joke.

11 users who have earned voting requisites have not voted yet, but their votes will not affect the outcome of the vote.

Eligible Voters: 123
Votes: 112

Roaring Moon
Ban: 74
Do Not Ban: 38
Ban % = 66.07%

60% pro-ban majority is required for a ban, and the outcome will not be changed by more votes. Thus, Roaring Moon is now banned from SV OU. Tagging Marty and dhelmise to make the change on PS when they have the time; thanks!

Thank you to all who have voted. The vote will remain open for 16 more hours to allow the remaining people with voting requirements to vote here and have their vote count towards the Tiering Contributor badge if they so please. Voting will be closed at this time.

Votes will be made public at the formal deadline or whenever all 123 eligible voters have voted, whichever comes first.
 
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