NP - Alice: SV ND DOU Suspect Process 6: Shadow Tag

Kin+ak (✧∇✧) said:
So if I understand correctly Stag is sus'd solely bc of tour play.
Tour play where it's neither the most used nor the one with the highest winrate.
Look-- this ain't singles. You need the opp to misplay/have TERRIBLE MU for it to be strong.
the "strongest team" argument is Bizarre because why would Goth be the only broken one here??
The replays are fun, but that's just how Doubles work. at high play, you'll have your mons KO Each other's checks, and obviously Using strong megas with a strong support gon be strong. Goth ain't broken, it's strong
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Shadow tag is being suspected because a suspect was voted in a recent tiering survey. That result was in itself caused by an advent of shadow tag into the meta and a large amount of good players realising that it is actually good. This has been reflected in tour games, so your initial statements are disingenuous. 67% is also a high number. At any rate, every one of these replays were good players making good plays against each other, with the goth player coming out on top not because of some skill diff, but because goth is simply extremely oppressive.

And therein lies the problem of goth: Goth doesnt win because of opposing misplays, it forces opposing misplays by virtue of its combination of stag, bulk and incredible support moves. I would even go as far to say that a goth player would need to play safer than non goth players because goth eliminates an entire important part of doubles by virtue of existing. As for why goth isn’t the only broken mon, it is clearly the difference maker in the quality of plays and mus in those replays.

Edit to urge people to vote ban, if it isn’t clear. The combination of shadow tag and goths bulk and support options is oppressive and uncompetitive to play and build against.
 
niminm said:
DNB
Based solely on ladder play i have not played a single tournament in this teir.
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So see the replays or the discussion of people who play to decide to vote on ban or dnb, using your limited experience on the tier as the reason for a decision that affects everyone. If every suspect only took one aspect of meta (ladder) staka or metagross mega would still be legal considering the were not oppresive there
 
I will be voting BAN. A lot of what I have to say about gothitelle and stag has already been stated, so just going to touch on a few things real quickly. Goth has been a problem since the inception of the tier, even though it has only risen in popularity recently. Part of this rise is due to the amount of higher level competition it is being brought into, as well as the growth of the player base in general. There's a reason stag has been banned in the last two current gens of dou. As power level of mons rise, the ability to trap and force board positioning is even more problematic. It becomes easier to snowball, as well as punishes passive plays like momentum moves because it allows the opponent more freedom to setup or make progress into the opposing team. Natdex is quite possibly the highest power level dou format ever, so it's no surprise that gothitelle is an issue. This mon has immense bulk, and can be ev'd to live many of the nukes within the tier, especially when paired with mons like Incineroar or Mega Salamence.

A few relevant Calcs for things that goth can commonly be ev'd for:

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Gothitelle: 289-343 (84 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Gothitelle: 198-237 (57.5 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Gothitelle: 230-272 (66.8 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 108 SpD Gothitelle: 266-314 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Gothitelle: 288-342 (83.7 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Gothitelle in Sun: 291-343 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And it's not like Goth is forced to one set. Psychium Z Trick room + Hypnosis, Sitrus berry, Cloak, Mental Herb, and Resist Berries are all perfectly viable options that punish scouts. This mon is an issue and extremely splashable; any weather team, hardroom, semiroom, and balance all stand to benefit from goth fitting on nearly any structure.

Kin+ak (✧∇✧) said:
So if I understand correctly Stag is sus'd solely bc of tour play.
Tour play where it's neither the most used nor the one with the highest winrate.
Look-- this ain't singles. You need the opp to misplay/have TERRIBLE MU for it to be strong.
the "strongest team" argument is Bizarre because why would Goth be the only broken one here??
The replays are fun, but that's just how Doubles work. at high play, you'll have your mons KO Each other's checks, and obviously Using strong megas with a strong support gon be strong. Goth ain't broken, it's strong
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These comments aren't adding anything to the conversation, all they show is your lack of knowledge towards the tier and doubles in general. Unless you can back the statements up with game evidence, I suggest you read back this thread and watch the games posted with an open mind. The replays posted are at the highest level of play that this tier has to offer, so the bad play arguments are being made with bad faith and would encourage you and all DNB voters to consider how shadow tag being allowed impacts how the tier develops in the future.
 
ChainlessJoe said:
So see the replays or the discussion of people who play to decide to vote on ban or dnb, using your limited experience on the tier as the reason for a decision that affects everyone. If every suspect only took one aspect of meta (ladder) staka or metagross mega would still be legal considering the were not oppresive there
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not sure if this is relevant to the convo but if the requirements to vote are that i need achieve a certain COIL by laddering
I have watched replays of tournaments but if COIL is the requirement watching replays should not be expected imo. It is good if they watch replays but should expected.
 
niminm said:
not sure if this is relevant to the convo but if the requirements to vote are that i need achieve a certain COIL by laddering
I have watched replays of tournaments but if COIL is the requirement watching replays should not be expected imo. It is good if they watch replays but should expected.
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COIL is the requirement for voting, but the act of getting coil isn’t sufficient to get an informed opinion in most suspects, including this one. I.e ladder is weak and those games don’t tell you enough about the competitive scene to make sure you have real opinions.
 
It will never cease to amaze me how despite having solid pro-ban arguments with actual explanations coming from the BEST players of the tier, people still think they know better for playing a couple ladder games.

I really encourage people to listen to people with actual knowledge of the tier, we actually do this things for a reason... Anyways...

I was already on the ban side, enough pro-ban arguments have been given already. However I wanted to talk about something that I didn´t saw mentioned enough, it´s how Gothitelle englobes two of the most unhealthy (if not the most) mechanics of the game thanks to the combination of Z-Trick Room + Hypnosis: trap and sleep.
Gothi´s unique ability of keeping one Pokemon trapped and asleep, while at the same time providing a strong speed control that helps Gothi to put almost any threat to sleep before it can make any move, its in my opinion really unhealthy and uncompetitive. This creates disadvantageous situations of 1vs2 that leaves you with very few counterplay and options.

My ssnl game vs Test Bots is good example of the mentioned above. While I prob missplayed the key turn, Goth was able to take back all the advantage I managed to get in the first turns by just clicking Hypnosis into all my Pokemon.
 
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LogIce said:
I will be voting BAN. A lot of what I have to say about gothitelle and stag has already been stated, so just going to touch on a few things real quickly. Goth has been a problem since the inception of the tier, even though it has only risen in popularity recently. Part of this rise is due to the amount of higher level competition it is being brought into, as well as the growth of the player base in general. There's a reason stag has been banned in the last two current gens of dou. As power level of mons rise, the ability to trap and force board positioning is even more problematic. It becomes easier to snowball, as well as punishes passive plays like momentum moves because it allows the opponent more freedom to setup or make progress into the opposing team. Natdex is quite possibly the highest power level dou format ever, so it's no surprise that gothitelle is an issue. This mon has immense bulk, and can be ev'd to live many of the nukes within the tier, especially when paired with mons like Incineroar or Mega Salamence.

A few relevant Calcs for things that goth can commonly be ev'd for:

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Gothitelle: 289-343 (84 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Gothitelle: 198-237 (57.5 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Gothitelle: 230-272 (66.8 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 108 SpD Gothitelle: 266-314 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Gothitelle: 288-342 (83.7 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Gothitelle in Sun: 291-343 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And it's not like Goth is forced to one set. Psychium Z Trick room + Hypnosis, Sitrus berry, Cloak, Mental Herb, and Resist Berries are all perfectly viable options that punish scouts. This mon is an issue and extremely splashable; any weather team, hardroom, semiroom, and balance all stand to benefit from goth fitting on nearly any structure.


These comments aren't adding anything to the conversation, all they show is your lack of knowledge towards the tier and doubles in general. Unless you can back the statements up with game evidence, I suggest you read back this thread and watch the games posted with an open mind. The replays posted are at the highest level of play that this tier has to offer, so the bad play arguments are being made with bad faith and would encourage you and all DNB voters to consider how shadow tag being allowed impacts how the tier develops in the future.
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yo gimme the 252/176+/176+ Bulk EV goth
You're assuming the opp has perfect positioning while having 1 and a half active mons on the field. unless you have terrible positioning yourself, you should be fine. Z Trick room + Hypno has its flaws, like Koko, Being Launched by a mon with a bad typing defensively, Fini, being launched with a mon very vulnerable to taunt (I know why l'm saying that)
Voltix said:
people still think they know better for playing a couple ladder games.
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I got Nearly 2000 Ladder games and I've been playing for as long as the tier has had a ladder, but a "couple" is fine I guess.
 
zee said:
If you only play this tier on ladder you simply do not play the tier at a high enough level to have an informed opinion on the topic. I hate to come out swinging like that but it really needs to be said because I think some people are underestimating this Pokemon's potential based on low quality ladder games and questionable usage statistics.

It is true that you can use pivot moves, but these are actions you must take on the turn which means you are potentially acting after Gothitelle/its partner, hopefully you see the issue there. You can use Taunt... until it reveals either Mental Herb or Psychium Z, both some of the better items for it. You may also use Tera Ghost, however, that is a pivotal resource to spend to switch out of Shadow Tag, not to mention that it takes an additional turn before you are given the option to switch.

As for the VGC argument: this is a Smogon Doubles tier, things are fundamentally different here. 6 Pokemon changes a lot about how the game is played, namely relevant to Gothitelle you are cutting off way more resources that the opponent intended to have smooth access to while teambuilding. To add onto this, we are playing in a National Dex environment which currently operates at a higher power level than anything VGC is used to. Almost every threatening pokemon becomes even stronger when added next to Gothitelle, and with the power level as high as it is in this tier I am convinced Gothitelle should be banned. I urge those of you that have only played the tier on ladder to peruse some tournament replays or chat with some of the tier's active tournament players on discord.
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I'm always open to hear other's perspectives and have a debate. This format is the most fun I've had playing mons and I'm curious hearing what other people think about it. If you're down to chat feel free to hit me up
 
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Honest question: How do you know tournament players are better than ladder players? Of course they will be better on average, low-ladder is full of trolls and timmies. But what about the top e.g. 8 of ladder? How do you know they are significantly worse than tournament players?
 
12-XVI said:
Honest question: How do you know tournament players are better than ladder players? Of course they will be better on average, low-ladder is full of trolls and timmies. But what about the top e.g. 8 of ladder? How do you know they are significantly worse than tournament players?
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I can answer that with my personal experience. I topped the gen 8 dou ladder with Cofagrigus the shitmon, proceed to join a tournament, get destroyed because my teams were ass, learn how to build teams that actually have good match-ups across the board and then start doing okay in tournaments. I'm not an isolated case, ladder players don't go very far in their first tours.
 
I'm not posting to explain why Shadow Tag should be banned. Others players have already done that plenty. I just want clear some things with the new members of the community.
12-XVI said:
Honest question: How do you know tournament players are better than ladder players? Of course they will be better on average, low-ladder is full of trolls and timmies. But what about the top e.g. 8 of ladder? How do you know they are significantly worse than tournament players?
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A lot of us have laddered in various doubles metagames. Being on the top ten just means that you had the time and willingness to give the effort. Ladders like that of National Dex Doubles has a small pool of ACTIVE players, and this doesn't exactly give these players quality matches of the metagame. If you use the resources given by the National Dex Doubles community, you'll quickly find out how easy it is to get to the top ten yourself. To the answer your question, you will not really know unless you experience tournaments yourself (or you could ask some of us to battle you via our Discord channel). Tournament participants are full of players with years of experience and extensive knowledge of the metagame.
NatusPKMN said:
Topped the ladder with a Rain Perish Team that I built 7 years ago for a VGC format. The problem most certainly isn't Shadow Tag, the problem is people are straight booty cheeks in the builder and are being punished for it. Tera Ghost is the most common tera, Ghost types pretty much in general are strong and plentiful, and switch moves are on nearly every team, AND you actually have access to all 6 of your Pokemon (VGC Players removing their ankle weights). There's no excuse, banning it is just weak sauce lol.

Voting no. Build better, play better.
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You're free to believe what you want, but this is how I view the current situation. Successful competitive games, not just Pokemon, have balance updates, and these balance updates are essential for the development of a good and ongoing metagame. Gamefreak just seems to be the odd one out because they only make significant changes with each new game. Still, they have addressed issues such as that of Parental Bond, pernament weather, Steel types, etc. However, Gamefreak does not manage the National Dex Doubles metagame; it is something the community has decided to create. Therefore, it is up to us, the community, to enforce changes as needed.
Remember, there is no "I" in a community. Criticizing others without knowing who your audiences are and choosing to use poor diction will put you in hot water not just in this community but everywhere else in the world. Rather, it's better to explain your position on current matters as you would in a public event. If the more experienced players decide to scorn on you despite you trying to be respectful, that's on them. Just try to be the better person and treat others as you would expect them to you. You did well with the follow-up response.
 
zee said:
If you only play this tier on ladder you simply do not play the tier at a high enough level to have an informed opinion on the topic. I hate to come out swinging like that but it really needs to be said because I think some people are underestimating this Pokemon's potential based on low quality ladder games and questionable usage statistics.
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As someone who completed the suspect reqs pretty easily having NEVER played this tier, or even much 6v6 doubles before, I entirely agree that the ladder is not enough to formulate an educated opinion. I used a couple forms of Gothitelle pretty exclusively over my run and can confidently say I do not feel significantly more informed about Shadow Tag's competitiveness than 3 days ago.

Because of this I would personally remove ladder requirements from future suspects. I felt this way over BW Volcarona + Cloyster, Cloyster, and Reuniclus, and having completed the reqs with relative ease, I can confidently say ladder reqs are a mistake and I encourage communities to move away from them if a complete doubles noob like myself can get them so insanely easily. Smogon SHOULD embrace a more elitist side and not have votes swung by inexperienced voters.

As I mentioned before, I don't think my opinion on Shadow Tag is valid, that being that it's actually balanced at face value because Gothitelle was very regularly a liability for my partner or the Pokemon swapping in to replace it after a Trick Room or whatever. Since I don't think I have the experience required for this suspect, I will be voting how Smudge plans to vote, because he didn't act win me one time and I respect that.
 
 
Although not everyone has voted, nothing can be done to change the outcome.

Current votes: 45
Total voters: 60
Votes required to ban: 36

Shadow Tag: Ban (40/45 = 88.89%) (66.667% of total)
Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban (5/45 = 11.11%)

As the 60% majority has been reached for action to be taken, Shadow Tag is now banned from National Dex Doubles. Tagging dhelmise and/or Marty to implement; thanks!

If you have qualified for Tiering Contributor via having 6 votes in National Dex Doubles suspects and do not already have the badge, please pm me, big pichu, or eragon.
 
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