Unpopular opinions

Sometimes, I think y'all didn't play the old games and had to deal with mons having to rely on Hidden Power for STAB.

I never went back and explained my take: the issue i have with the idea of making every type unique is that it makes for extremely boring pokemon. every type would just be the ice type, where only one archetype can have major success while the rest flounder (other than idk 600+ bst abominations but thats kinda for every type. they can do whatever they want). I want all archetypes to be viable with all types, because its fundamentally more interesting to have different pokemon use the type differently than going "its an ice type so its a fast attacker. its a steel type so its a wall. its a fire type so its a bulky attacker"
Wrong. Certain types already have reliable move pipelines.

Take Grass, for example, would you say that Sceptile and Roserade play like Ferrothorn and Meganium?

I hate the idea of every type being relatively the same for the same reason I hate hit like Level Scaling.

At what point does the entire game start to feel the same outside of cosmetic differences. This shit matters to game feel. If my Fire Type and Bug Type feel essentially the same from a gameplay perspective, the texture of videogames, then everything starts to feel boring and stale.

Games should do more to make every bit of gameplay feel different, especially in their balance of different groups, not less. If your blorbo is bad because it doesn't have SpA Stone Edge, I don't care. That makes it more interesting.
That's where the unique moves and strengths of each type and pokémon come in.

Blaziken and Incineroar can click Flare Blitz to hit things, but they damn sure don't play the same. However, they do have the option of attacking and actually doing damage unlike DP Luxray.

Options make games more interesting.
 
nope, thus all types should be like grass and have a very broad and expansive options of attacks, utility and defense profiles, to create more pokemon who play differently. glad we both agree on this!
And for that, they need viable damage options for early, mid, and late-game/comp!

Literally just look at how Scizor couldn't do anything before DPPt because it just didn't have anything to reliably hit the opponent with. The entire Bug-type was like this.
 
Take Grass, for example, would you say that Sceptile and Roserade play like Ferrothorn and Meganium?
In the context of singleplayer?

Yea

You could interchangably use basically any Grass Type and it'd feel basically the exact fucking same to me, realistically. I'd see more difference between Exp. Growth Rate than "Do I click Giga Drain or Power Whip and am I faster or slower" to an enemy target weak to Grass
 
And for that, they need viable damage options for early, mid, and late-game/comp!

Literally just look at how Scizor couldn't do anything before DPPt because it just didn't have anything to reliably hit the opponent with. The entire Bug-type was like this.

i dont see how this contradicts my desire for all types to have equal toolboxes (with different flavors. of course freeze is for ice types etc etc etc), because i do agree gamefreak has done a pretty ass job with mid game lately. theyve been too focused on end game competitive while pokemon will have 20 level gaps of having a single good move.

the type toolboxes should be similar in scale, but each pokemon should use it diffwrently BUT they should also... be useful in some way lmfao. including in early and mid game. of course you dont need to make as wide of a spread for the mid and early game, but entire removal of tools like signal beam getting cut is ?!?!?!?!?!?!!
 
theyve been too focused on end game competitive while pokemon will have 20 level gaps of having a single good move.
This doesn't exist anymore I made like half an essay about how nowadays Game Freak just gives you a competitive moveset with coverage + setup moves + great STAB on basically everything now

Even a shitmon designed to be a shitmon like Oinkologne gets one of its best STAB moves in the game at Level 23
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Yawn is nice, then a setup move, and then yeah it takes a while to get Double Edge but that's still not even really "endgame" imo.

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Look at Ceruledge lol

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Armarouge

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Lokix

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Garganacl

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Kilowattrel

etc. etc.

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Grafaiai

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Toedscruel

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Scovillain

etc. etc.

This is ofc without TMs, because a lot of the mons that don't have the best level up movesets have good TMs here. When you open up to TMs Oinkologne can learn more than the following: Trailblaze, Chilling Water, Facade, Bulldoze, Dig, Bullet Seed, Zen Headbutt, Body Slam, Seed Bomb, Stomping Tantrum, Body Press, Iron Head, Hyper Voice, Energy Ball, Play Rough, High Horsepower

It's oldmons like the eeveelutions for example that have the bad in-game movepools tbh
 
i dont see how this contradicts my desire for all types to have equal toolboxes (with different flavors. of course freeze is for ice types etc etc etc), because i do agree gamefreak has done a pretty ass job with mid game lately. theyve been too focused on end game competitive while pokemon will have 20 level gaps of having a single good move.

the type toolboxes should be similar in scale, but each pokemon should use it diffwrently BUT they should also... be useful in some way lmfao. including in early and mid game. of course you dont need to make as wide of a spread for the mid and early game, but entire removal of tools like signal beam getting cut is ?!?!?!?!?!?!!
But that's the thing, it doesn't!

This is exactly what we were advocating for, good stab pipelines so mons can actually function during the entire game.

In the context of singleplayer?

Yea

You could interchangably use basically any Grass Type and it'd feel basically the exact fucking same to me, realistically. I'd see more difference between Exp. Growth Rate than "Do I click Giga Drain or Power Whip and am I faster or slower" to an enemy target weak to Grass
:facepalm:

A'ight, bet. This is Gen 2 Exeggcute, does this feel like a Grass-type to you?

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Btw, Giga Drain is post-game, and Solarbeam is after Clair. There's something to be said about modern learnsets needing some flavor, but let's be real here, advocating for mons to not have viable attack options is bewildering.
 
Definitely no to this. For competitive, you really only need the high or top tier damage attacks to make things work.

Ingame though it is even worse. A whole lot of the fun can come from pokemon being pulled in different directions than their stat lines directly imply - using off attacking stats or relying on off type moves for a main damage dealing move for portions of the game can be really fun and a little less pure auto-pilot than usual. I'd much rather have a mon like say Vulpix / Ninetales use Wisp + Hex or Flare Blitz for portions of the game rather than purely just going down the Ember pipeline. (and that does, in practice, mean being exclusionary of the optimal stat aligned STABs at times, because otherwise those options may as well not exist for players not handicapping themselves)
A lot of pokemon don't have that high/top tier damage, which is a bad thing that this would fix. There's also a lot of pokemon with no proper early or mid game options, resulting in long time periods where a pokemon is stuck with no stab options or extremely weak stab options. Both of these are issues pokemon shouldn't have to deal with, unless a pokemon isn't really designed to do much (if any) damage to begin with.

Saying this means Pokemon can't be unique as a result doesn't make any sense, there's still plenty of ways to make pokemon unique. This would make sure every pokemon can function, while still allowing for them to be unique. This wouldn't prevent Vulpix from using Will O Wisp and Hex, it could still learn both of those moves. It just would also be allowed to function as a Fire type too.

Also the stats themselves are giving pokemon unique ways to play. Making them unique by forcing them to play in a way they aren't designed to doesn't make any sense.
 
I hate the idea of every type being relatively the same for the same reason I hate hit like Level Scaling.

At what point does the entire game start to feel the same outside of cosmetic differences. This shit matters to game feel. If my Fire Type and Bug Type feel essentially the same from a gameplay perspective, the texture of videogames, then everything starts to feel boring and stale.

Games should do more to make every bit of gameplay feel different, especially in their balance of different groups, not less. If your blorbo is bad because it doesn't have SpA Stone Edge, I don't care. That makes it more interesting.
The types already play and feel different because of type matchups. Fire and Bug types will never feel like they play the same because Fire types can hit Steel types super effectively while Bug is resisted, Bug hits Dark super effectively while Fire doesn't, etc. Types will never feel the same because type matchups will always give them different things. Not to mention some types being different in regards to how their type matchups are compared to others (Steel resisting a trillion things but not having many offensive advantages, Ground having an insane amount of offensive strengths but having to deal with much more immunities than any other type as a result, Grass having much more resistences to deal with but hitting two really good types (one of which is hard to hit super effectively) super effectively giving it a great niche, etc). Not to mention there's still the rest of the moveset, which would have a bunch of more unique stab options, support options, setup options, coverage options, etc which would keep them feeling different.

Blorbo doesn't necessarily need SpA Stone Edge, he needs something that fulfills the same role of a strong special attack. And even if it was SpA Stone Edge, I think it's far more interesting to have the option of either Blorbo or Blurba instead of Blurba just being a better version of Blorbo, and Blorbo not being able to function properly and therefore just being the worse option because everyone would rather just go with Blurba instead. Having more good options is far more interesting than having two options where one is just significently better and the other doesn't work properly.
 
Blorbo doesn't necessarily need SpA Stone Edge, he needs something that fulfills the same role of a strong special attack. And even if it was SpA Stone Edge, I think it's far more interesting to have the option of either Blorbo or Blurba instead of Blurba just being a better version of Blorbo, and Blorbo not being able to function properly and therefore just being the worse option because everyone would rather just go with Blurba instead. Having more good options is far more interesting than having two options where one is just significently better and the other doesn't work properly.
Pokemon missing access to certain STAB attacks can still be interesting and viable if they are compensated with other positive qualities. From a competitive standpoint, I think that requiring nearly all Pokemon receive both a reliable strong STAB and a risky-but-strong STAB would close a lot of design space. Kartana lacking access to a risky-but-strong attack like Wood Hammer or Power Whip is necessary because it's compensated by its Attack stat. Shadow Ball is a decent STAB despite being on the lower end of power for the "standard STAB" due to having relatively uncommon resists, and a widely distributed Ghost-type attack comparable to Fire Blast or Overheat would give a lot of high-end Ghosts too much OHKO power. Encouraging a Pokemon to use High Jump Kick often requires denying access to Close Combat, showing how mandating a near-universal safe(r) option (which CC is to Fighting-types in Gen 8+) can cause interesting moves which are less common to be overshadowed (while CC is in the strong-but-risky category, it is still less risky than HJK).

It's even possible to create interesting results when denying both the "standard" reliable and strong-but-risky options. Leftovers + Fly Dragonite (and similarly Leftovers + Bounce Gyarados) in Gen 6 is an interesting set that might have been overshadowed if Dragonite had access to a better Flying-type attack (and if that attack was Brave Bird or otherwise comparable in power to other "risky" moves, it might have been in outright overpowered territory). Such cases can flop massively if not designed carefully, but l'd rather have the option open to create these interesting successes over just preventing the worst possible movepool design errors. Perhaps it's fair to not trust Gamefreak to provide proper compensation for notable movepool absences, but it's far from impossible.
 
From a competitive standpoint, I think that requiring nearly all Pokemon receive both a reliable strong STAB and a risky-but-strong STAB would close a lot of design space.
That's an interesting point.

I only got a problem when mons don't get either to be honest. Besides in-game jank like having to rely on Ember throughout the entire mid-game. No, I won't name names.

Of course, the Physical Electric-type situation is also pretty bad. Wild Charge as your main STAB is pretty horrendous, and Supercell Slam kinda doesn't have the juice. (And it came 5 generations too late.)

With that said, I think it's fair to limit some mons to only a risky-but-strong STAB or a reliable, 90BP one. Especially the latter. That adds to the flavor without denying mons viable output.
 
If we're discussing having usable STABs for various stages of ingame progression, I'd like to bring up Mirror Shot in specific. As the only Special Steel move that has ever existed below 80 power, I feel like it should have been available to more offensively mixed Steel-types like Bronzor or Shieldon. Instead it gets deleted from the game. Currently, Magnemite gets it's first Steel STAB on its much better attacking stat two levels after it would normally evolve. Before that, it's only option is Gyro Ball at level 16, which disappointed ingame on the both higher-Attack and lower-Speed Honedge.
 
If we're discussing having usable STABs for various stages of ingame progression, I'd like to bring up Mirror Shot in specific. As the only Special Steel move that has ever existed below 80 power, I feel like it should have been available to more offensively mixed Steel-types like Bronzor or Shieldon. Instead it gets deleted from the game. Currently, Magnemite gets it's first Steel STAB on its much better attacking stat two levels after it would normally evolve. Before that, it's only option is Gyro Ball at level 16, which disappointed ingame on the both higher-Attack and lower-Speed Honedge.
Not just Mirror Shot. Magnet Bomb too. Incredibly STUPID decision.

Yes, let's go back to Metal Claw and Steel Wing for mid-game progression? What's that? No wings? Well, sucks to be you! :facepalm:
 
Pokemon missing access to certain STAB attacks can still be interesting and viable if they are compensated with other positive qualities. From a competitive standpoint, I think that requiring nearly all Pokemon receive both a reliable strong STAB and a risky-but-strong STAB would close a lot of design space. Kartana lacking access to a risky-but-strong attack like Wood Hammer or Power Whip is necessary because it's compensated by its Attack stat. Shadow Ball is a decent STAB despite being on the lower end of power for the "standard STAB" due to having relatively uncommon resists, and a widely distributed Ghost-type attack comparable to Fire Blast or Overheat would give a lot of high-end Ghosts too much OHKO power. Encouraging a Pokemon to use High Jump Kick often requires denying access to Close Combat, showing how mandating a near-universal safe(r) option (which CC is to Fighting-types in Gen 8+) can cause interesting moves which are less common to be overshadowed (while CC is in the strong-but-risky category, it is still less risky than HJK).

It's even possible to create interesting results when denying both the "standard" reliable and strong-but-risky options. Leftovers + Fly Dragonite (and similarly Leftovers + Bounce Gyarados) in Gen 6 is an interesting set that might have been overshadowed if Dragonite had access to a better Flying-type attack (and if that attack was Brave Bird or otherwise comparable in power to other "risky" moves, it might have been in outright overpowered territory). Such cases can flop massively if not designed carefully, but l'd rather have the option open to create these interesting successes over just preventing the worst possible movepool design errors. Perhaps it's fair to not trust Gamefreak to provide proper compensation for notable movepool absences, but it's far from impossible.
I think it'd be fine for some pokemon to only get one of those two strong options if there's a good design reason for it, but the options should still be around for most pokemon
 
I'd say the space they should be aiming for is that every Pokémon has at least either a moderate power no drawback STAB (e.g. Shadow Ball) or a high power with drawback STAB (e.g. Focus Miss) for its main attacking stat. The types themselves can and should have different tools and attacks given to them as a whole, but they should still have enough options that some Pokémon aren't gimped because they're a physical electric type or a special rock type.
 
Gen 3-7 Seedot:
A kind of reasonable cherry pick, except you didn't even pick it right. Seedot has an explicitly gimped movepool compared to Nuzleaf, and ORAS Nuzleaf's movepool is basically to a modern standard already. RSE Nuzleaf's movepool is a point worth making, but even then the line gets a ton of use out of a few barely contested earlygame TMs like Bullet Seed, Thief, and Rock Tomb. What does fit your thought is the fact that Nuzleaf and Shiftry do definitely fall apart towards the end of the game, and really rely on Sunny Day (or Groudon I guess) and Solar Beam to do much of anything past a certain point. But before then, stuff like (60 BP) Giga Drain, Faint Attack, Brick Break / Shadow Ball, Nature Power, and potentially a decent Hidden Power are totally fine to be using. Speaking of which,
This wouldn't prevent Vulpix from using Will O Wisp and Hex, it could still learn both of those moves. It just would also be allowed to function as a Fire type too.
On a literal level, of course it isn't true that having access to Flamethrower means you can't use Flame Burst.

But like. Would you?

It might seem somewhat bizarre to consider this happening with a strong STAB and a coverage move but think about it. The use cases of your second strongest attack are only as common as the situations where your first strongest attack is weaker than it. For situations where moves are differentiated by type, that means situations where the strongest move is NVE or your move is SE. And for you to be using a pokemon against another, it's probably going to be one of the better options on your team at handling a threat- we're talking ingame here, so there's no need to worry about reads, switch-ins, or mid-ground plays. The amount of situations where a pokemon is going to need to use its third or even second strongest attack in a given playthrough is low, much lower than you might expect. If you have let's say Flame Burst on Vulpix, you probably just aren't using Hex very often - you'd probably have another teammate handle Rock / Ground / Water types, (if you aren't just using Energy Ball or Solar Beam for them instead) and in Fire mirrors the combo around it doesn't work. So you're only using it for Psychic, Ghost, and Dragon type matchups, and even that is assuming you don't have a better way to deal with any of those with a different pokemon on your team.

With the whole thing about preforming the role of a type, I also don't agree. Having the utility of offensive and defensive typings in pokemon spliced apart from one another is not bad design for ingame at all imo. There is something you can get that's different from old gen movepools (occasionally barren to the point of uselessness, filled out with random utility-less normal moves, excessively reliant on staple TMs / HMs) but that isn't just as cookie cutter as some modern movepools.
 
Similarly, a lot of the "Can I beat X game with crappy mon" challenges just boil down to "the AI is stupid" and "I overgrinded cuz my stats/moves suck"
I've seen a couple challenges like this Victory Road trainer one by adef that at least enforces a level cap and move/item restrictions on the player to keep it interesting.


In regards to the original topic: there's a fine line you have to walk between "things need options to be viable" and "we don't want the game to be homogenized". You don't want too many stinkers but also don't want all the Pokémon the feel the same.
 
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In regards to the original topic: there's a fine line you have to walk between "things need options to be viable" and "we don't want the game to be homogenized". You don't want to many stinkers but also don't want all the Pokémon the feel the same.
A frequent mantra I've heard in other genres is "variety is more important than balance." And also that balancing strategic/tactical options and styles is more important than just balancing individual character strength. You can balance a game by giving every single character identical tools, but then that typically defeats the purpose of having a large roster of characters to begin with.
 
Does anyone see any benefit in getting Legends Z-A for the Switch 1?

From what we've seen in the trailers, the game is already suffering performance wise, which fortunately will be adressed...on the Switch 2 edition. Plus, there's the possibility of having post release content like Daybreak in Legends Arceus, but it could be Switch 2 exclusive like in Kirby and the Forgotten Land. It looks more like the option for people who cannot get the new console, which is a pretty deflating feeling.
 
Does anyone see any benefit in getting Legends Z-A for the Switch 1?

From what we've seen in the trailers, the game is already suffering performance wise, which fortunately will be adressed...on the Switch 2 edition. Plus, there's the possibility of having post release content like Daybreak in Legends Arceus, but it could be Switch 2 exclusive like in Kirby and the Forgotten Land. It looks more like the option for people who cannot get the new console, which is a pretty deflating feeling.
The benefit is not spending 450€ (or more) for a Switch 2.

No, really, that's it.
 
doubling the fps and making it consistent is cool but for me personally it isn't worth 450 us dollars + 10 dollars for the upgrade pack (presumably)

I'm still thinking that I won't buy a switch 2 until I'm forced to for Gen 10 in 2026.
Same
Though I can consider if they make a "ZA+Switch 2" bundle like the Mario Kart one.
Regardless of what I think of the overpricing, I know I will get the console at some point, so saving 40ish bucks on acquiring it with a game I was going to get anyway would tecnically be worth it.
 
Only reason why I'm going to be getting a Switch 2 is because you can port over your old save data and to get the new pokemon games. If there wasn't the first part, I would not be getting a Switch 2.

But I still will admit, the prices are just insane. I hope that they have a program where you can trade your switch in for a switch 2 at a lower price while still porting over save data (because god's knows they won't reduce the price of the Switch 2).
 
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