Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Gonna stop lurking and pitch in for the first time on this Rillaboom conversation. As someone who has been using this grassy offense team peaking in the 1800s (removed EVs as to not fully give away the sets, still very much working with this core even with Moon banned) and have been regularly on the leaderboard since Gouging Fire suspect 1 and until the recent Roaring Moon ban. With this I can confidently say that the weakness of Rillaboom is far overblown. Though Rillaboom may struggle into certain meta prevalent Pokémon such as Zapdos, Moltres, Pecharunt and Kingambit, it is by no means awful.

The utility and support Rillaboom provides is unmatched. With Terrain Extender, it can provided consistent chip healing for a majority of games, allowing for mons who otherwise would run Leftovers to run other items, and providing a larger window of opportunity to for those who rely on Grassy Seed. Additionally, another added benefit of Terrain Extender is not locking Rillaboom into one move, this allows Rillaboom the ability to either use Knock Off to make progress or Wood Hammer to significant damage, and then U-Turn out. Moreover, certain Pokémon who are normally faster than Rillaboom get lulled into staying in believing Rilla to be locked in either Knock Off or Wood Hammer, meaning it can get a jump on them with Grassy Glide and collect a surprise KO. Grassy Terrain as a supportive tool is unmatched, and provides so much to any time.

Not only does it provided meaningful chip healing as mentioned prior, it also enables a many offensive tools. For example, Hawlucha greatly appreciates the presence of Grassy Terrain, as it provides it with +1 Def as well as activating Unburden. With this Hawlucha with proper investment can be suprisingly bulky, living moves it would not normally otherwise, such as Ice Shard from Weavile. Hawlucha also handles many of the threats which unbanded Rillaboom thuds into, such as Zama and Kingambit. In a similar vain, Raging Bolt is amazing with Grassy Seed and Grassy Terrain support. With proper investment and the +1 Def from Grassy Seed, with full HP Bolt is able to comfortably live Headlong Rush from Great Tusk, and revenge kill it. Grassy Seed provides enough bulk that it pushes Raging Bolt out of the threshold of many certain kills otherwise, and the residual healing gives Bolt surprising longevity. Lastly, arguably the biggest beneficiary of Rilla's Grassy Terrain is Ogerpon. The additional power provided to Ogerpon's Powerwhip is invaluable. Grassy Terrain makes getting certain kills significantly easier, allowing for unboosted whip to OHKO some standard Ting-Lu sets, 2HKO standard Dondozo, and provide more favoruable rolls on Stall and BO regulars such as Gliscor, Clefable and Clodsire. With the presence of Grassy Terrain, Ogrepon becomes a ludicrous wallbreaker, synergizing extremely well with Cornerstone, as Cornerstone matches up well into many of Rillaboom's counters (Moltres and Zapdos specfically), while allowing Cornerstone to take advantage of Sturdy multiple times. Those are the only offensive tools on this team, but like Srn mentioned others such as Life Orb Zama also benefit greatly from terrain.

This idea that Rillaboom is bad is overblown and absurd, as it still has a place in SV OU. Even though we are seeing a meta trend consisting of more and more mons which have better matchups into Rilla, that does not mean Rilla has no place. It is still unarguably the best terrain setter in all of SV, and the utility for which it provides cannot be replicated by any other mon. I think what limits people is their narrow assessment of Rillaboom. People force it into the archetype of wallbreaker, restricting it's moveset when in actuality it's toolkit is more suited to a supportive mon. I still firmly believe that Rillaboom and Grassy Terrain are under explored, and that with genuine innovation we could see Rillaboom rise back to prominence.
 

Attachments

  • Ladder Peak.png
    Ladder Peak.png
    42.5 KB · Views: 70
I, too, wanted to hop in on this conversation as someone who is an avid user of Rillaboom. In all honesty, I have not read the prior messages much, and the discussion may have run its course, but I just wanted to briefly share some thoughts. I am sure that many have you have seen my banded Rilla team under my alt UChiking if you've been on high ladder (although, Rilla is not the focal point of the team), and I think that I have used Rillaboom enough to have a solid opinion on where it falls short and why it fell to UU, something that did not shock me in the slightest.

It is no doubt that RIllaboom's power level is objectively lower this Gen compared to Generation 8. Not only was Grassy Glide nerfed, but the power level increased overall and Rilla has more to compete with now. So right off the bat, Rillaboom's wallbreaking ability is slightly worse before even really considering popular metagame threats. Furthermore, an underrated aspect of Rillaboom in Gen 8 was its ability to change terrains, an everpresent mechanic in that Gen, and something that proves to be far less useful nowadays. Then, there is the obvious issue of Rillaboom in the current metagame, which I am sure has been discussed. The prevalence of the birds and dragons means that Rilla just can't do what it used to. It is honestly very simple and understandable why Rillaboom fell, and I am even a little surprised it took this long.

In my brief perusal of other people's thoughts, I noticed a lot of Terrain Extender, support Rillaboom discourse. While I do think that Grassy Terrain teams are absolutely viable right now, and Rillaboom is, of course, the premier Grassy Terrain setter, that structure is really the only thing that support Rilla can thrive on. Furthermore, while Grassy Terrain teams are viable, I don't think that they are elite, and you would likely be better suited to build many of the other more-than-viable structures, if not only due to the widespread usage of Ice Spinner and general inconsistency of Grassy Terrain. I want to make it clear that Grassy Terrain teams are viable and can work, but I don't think they are good enough to be an OU staple which is why I don't see Rillaboom returning to OU through its support sets.

What I really wanted to talk about was its abilities as a wallbreaker despite all that it must overcome this generation. Despite its BP nerf and the fact that nearly half of the mons in OU resist grass, Grassy Glide is still incredible as a consistent strong priority move, something that is an absolute necessity in this Gen. Indeed, it is not the best priority move in the game anymore, but Tera-Grass Grassy Glide is incredible at revenging or even just OHKOing some of the biggest threats in the tier (Darkrai, IVal, Ogerpon-W). The issue with using banded Grassy Glide as your priority is that it lets in other very threatening sweepers, which is why I think Rillaboom works best in OU on a bulkier team, which allows it to come in, knock items off, U-Turn around, and clean up with Grassy Glide, or break with Wood Hammer. You need to have a defensive core that counters the other sweepers it lets in, but that doesn't mean that it's not viable. Let's not forget how strong Wood Hammer is, doing at least 50% to normal resists (other than Pecharunt), and even OHKOing resists. Pair a banded Rillaboom with some good hazards and a solid defensive core, and Rillaboom will prove to be a more than viable OU threat. Even it's banded sets provide great utility with Grassy Terrain chip healing, EQ damage reduction, and one of the strongest Knock Offs in the tier.

Look, Rillaboom is obviously not what it once was, and it probably deserves to be in UU, but in a world where priority and Knock Off are necessities and pivot moves are as valuable as ever, Rillaboom is still a big OU threat. Its damage output is so high against anything that isn't a 4x resist (and Pecharunt), and a defensive core to handle those 4x resists means that Rillaboom can still thrive in OU. I see people just forgoing it as a wallbreaker given the plethora of resists and instead opting for support sets, but I am arguing that the banded set is still its best, most consistent, and most viable OU set (on a properly built team)
 
Before I suggest this set, I must preface that smeargle has a long history of harmful behaviour throughout competitive pokemon which includes but is not limited to
  1. Enabling Baton pass strategies in multiple generations.
  2. Indirectly causing the move getting outright banned in later generations, killing the strategy altogether.
  3. Using ingrain to an unhealthy degree, resulting its ingrain sets getting banned from gen 3 tournaments due to it being unhealthy.
  4. Getting its baton pass sets banned in gen 3 ou, resulting in multiple staples of baton pass becoming unviable whilst smeargle continued to see usage.
  5. Causing multiple pokemon to lose their pivoting due to it indirectly causing the full on ban of baton pass.
  6. Abusing moody in gen 5 ubers and getting the ability banned alongside glalie and bidoof.
  7. Reeking havoc on VGC 2016 with dark void spam and moody, making the format extremely luck based.
  8. Getting dark void unfairly nerfed, causing darkrai to lose its ubers niche and eventually drop to OU in gen 9.
  9. Abusing sticky web and spore in BSDP PU and getting quickbanned from the tier for the strat having little counterplay.
  10. Ruining BSDP Doubles OU with moody cheese and getting banned from the tier.
  11. Enabling wishcats due to being the best revival blessing pokemon, a strategy which partially caused natdex anything goes to lose its ladder and community.
  12. Indirectly causing Mega gengar to essentially be banned from most forms of play by removing the ladder of the one permanent metagame it was legal in, making this mon exclusive to pure hackmons which is for fun only.
  13. Causing the ban of sleep moves in gen 9 smogon by causing darkrai to drop to OU and spam focus sash hypnosis which made the council question sleep mod’s validity.
  14. Killing any niche that Camerupt had in ZU due to its actions causing the ban of yawn (which is a sleep move).
  15. Indirectly causing amoonguss and breloom to fall to NU due to its triggering the chain of events that got sleep moves banned.
  16. Wounding sun teams by indirectly taking away yawn from torkoal, which was one of its best moves.
  17. Getting banned from little cup in pokemon go, even getting quickbanned in the holiday edition.
Ultimately, smeargle has caused irreparable damage to competitive pokemon and has nothing but left fear and rage in hearts of players alike, what smeargle has done is not to be forgiven or forgetten and we should under zero circumstances try to downplay its actions.


However, we should be able to seperate the art from the artist and recognise it for the positive qualities it’s boundless movepool has for cheese and gimmick teams in gen 9 OU

:smeargle:
Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dire Claw
- Burning Bulwark/Silk Trap/Baneful Bunker/Protect/Spiky Shield
- Sticky Web
- Ceaseless Edge/Court change
Since dire claw is legal, Smeargle can use dire claw to fish for status like paralysis and sleep to cripple other leads before using sticky web, ceaseless edge is prefered for setting spikes in the face of hazard setters but court change is a solid meta move, allowing it to turn the tables on common hazard leads like ting lu and araquanid by using their hazards against them, it loses to hisuian samurott which can minimise its work to only setting webs with an attack + priority move to kill it, burning Bulwark allows smeargle to punish contact moves from leads like gliscor or landorus and improves its samurott match up minimising samurotts work too which makes it not deadweight into that matchup. It can run other protecting moves like silk trap to reduce speed for allowing smeargle to set up more, Baneful Bunker to poison pokemon, Protect to scout for status moves too and Spiky shield to do chip damage, but Burning Bulwark combination of chip and reducing attack makes it the most usable protecting move especially for countering leads with contact moves, it’s only good tera type is ghost for a fighting immunity and the ability to block rapid spin for keeping your hazards, but smeargle is a weak lead so it should rarely be terastilised.

Smeargle mainly fits on uncompetitive teams that rely on match up and cheese to win the game, it can run trick room but may eat up a turn dying or end being too fast for trick room itself so Court change or edge is generally more viable, a good teammate is Kyurem which can choose any set it wants and enjoys having the speed advantage to click high power special moves or setup dragon dance, it should often be paired with a spinblocker to stop rapid spin, gholdengo can support it by blocking all hazard removal entirely and also enjoys sticky web since it allows for a potential sweep or late game clean up.

However, smeargles mid speed and terrible bulk make it a niche option for cheese and matchup teams as without the right moves, it can get a bad matchup and leave you playing with 5 pokemon, it also has no power and relies on foul play + seismic toss for damage which comprises half its moveslot, it has 4 move slot syndrome since it wants ALL these moves but has to pick and choose, leaving a full moveslot feeling insufficent. Overall whilst smeargle can help you cheese your way to victory, it can also send you back to low ladder with zero elo (this is more likely), so use it carefully for goodness sake!
 
  1. Enabling Baton pass strategies in multiple generations.
  2. Indirectly causing the move getting outright banned in later generations, killing the strategy altogether.
  3. Using ingrain to an unhealthy degree, resulting its ingrain sets getting banned from gen 3 tournaments due to it being unhealthy.
  4. Getting its baton pass sets banned in gen 3 ou, resulting in multiple staples of baton pass becoming unviable whilst smeargle continued to see usage.
  5. Causing multiple pokemon to lose their pivoting due to it indirectly causing the full on ban of baton pass.
  6. Abusing moody in gen 5 ubers and getting the ability banned alongside glalie and bidoof.
  7. Reeking havoc on VGC 2016 with dark void spam and moody, making the format extremely luck based.
  8. Getting dark void unfairly nerfed, causing darkrai to lose its ubers niche and eventually drop to OU in gen 9.
  9. Abusing sticky web and spore in BSDP PU and getting quickbanned from the tier for the strat having little counterplay.
  10. Ruining BSDP Doubles OU with moody cheese and getting banned from the tier.
  11. Enabling wishcats due to being the best revival blessing pokemon, a strategy which partially caused natdex anything goes to lose its ladder and community.
  12. Indirectly causing Mega gengar to essentially be banned from most forms of play by removing the ladder of the one permanent metagame it was legal in, making this mon exclusive to pure hackmons which is for fun only.
  13. Causing the ban of sleep moves in gen 9 smogon by causing darkrai to drop to OU and spam focus sash hypnosis which made the council question sleep mod’s validity.
  14. Killing any niche that Camerupt had in ZU due to its actions causing the ban of yawn (which is a sleep move).
  15. Indirectly causing amoonguss and breloom to fall to NU due to its triggering the chain of events that got sleep moves banned.
  16. Wounding sun teams by indirectly taking away yawn from torkoal, which was one of its best moves.
  17. Getting banned from little cup in pokemon go, even getting quickbanned in the holiday edition.
What is this the Smeargle Files?
I, too, wanted to hop in on this conversation as someone who is an avid user of Rillaboom. In all honesty, I have not read the prior messages much, and the discussion may have run its course, but I just wanted to briefly share some thoughts. I am sure that many have you have seen my banded Rilla team under my alt UChiking if you've been on high ladder (although, Rilla is not the focal point of the team), and I think that I have used Rillaboom enough to have a solid opinion on where it falls short and why it fell to UU, something that did not shock me in the slightest.

It is no doubt that RIllaboom's power level is objectively lower this Gen compared to Generation 8. Not only was Grassy Glide nerfed, but the power level increased overall and Rilla has more to compete with now. So right off the bat, Rillaboom's wallbreaking ability is slightly worse before even really considering popular metagame threats. Furthermore, an underrated aspect of Rillaboom in Gen 8 was its ability to change terrains, an everpresent mechanic in that Gen, and something that proves to be far less useful nowadays. Then, there is the obvious issue of Rillaboom in the current metagame, which I am sure has been discussed. The prevalence of the birds and dragons means that Rilla just can't do what it used to. It is honestly very simple and understandable why Rillaboom fell, and I am even a little surprised it took this long.

In my brief perusal of other people's thoughts, I noticed a lot of Terrain Extender, support Rillaboom discourse. While I do think that Grassy Terrain teams are absolutely viable right now, and Rillaboom is, of course, the premier Grassy Terrain setter, that structure is really the only thing that support Rilla can thrive on. Furthermore, while Grassy Terrain teams are viable, I don't think that they are elite, and you would likely be better suited to build many of the other more-than-viable structures, if not only due to the widespread usage of Ice Spinner and general inconsistency of Grassy Terrain. I want to make it clear that Grassy Terrain teams are viable and can work, but I don't think they are good enough to be an OU staple which is why I don't see Rillaboom returning to OU through its support sets.

What I really wanted to talk about was its abilities as a wallbreaker despite all that it must overcome this generation. Despite its BP nerf and the fact that nearly half of the mons in OU resist grass, Grassy Glide is still incredible as a consistent strong priority move, something that is an absolute necessity in this Gen. Indeed, it is not the best priority move in the game anymore, but Tera-Grass Grassy Glide is incredible at revenging or even just OHKOing some of the biggest threats in the tier (Darkrai, IVal, Ogerpon-W). The issue with using banded Grassy Glide as your priority is that it lets in other very threatening sweepers, which is why I think Rillaboom works best in OU on a bulkier team, which allows it to come in, knock items off, U-Turn around, and clean up with Grassy Glide, or break with Wood Hammer. You need to have a defensive core that counters the other sweepers it lets in, but that doesn't mean that it's not viable. Let's not forget how strong Wood Hammer is, doing at least 50% to normal resists (other than Pecharunt), and even OHKOing resists. Pair a banded Rillaboom with some good hazards and a solid defensive core, and Rillaboom will prove to be a more than viable OU threat. Even it's banded sets provide great utility with Grassy Terrain chip healing, EQ damage reduction, and one of the strongest Knock Offs in the tier.

Look, Rillaboom is obviously not what it once was, and it probably deserves to be in UU, but in a world where priority and Knock Off are necessities and pivot moves are as valuable as ever, Rillaboom is still a big OU threat. Its damage output is so high against anything that isn't a 4x resist (and Pecharunt), and a defensive core to handle those 4x resists means that Rillaboom can still thrive in OU. I see people just forgoing it as a wallbreaker given the plethora of resists and instead opting for support sets, but I am arguing that the banded set is still its best, most consistent, and most viable OU set (on a properly built team)
I do agree that cb Rillaboom is probably the most consistent set Rillaboom has but I do feel like it needs to be experimented with more. Grassy Glide is an amazing move but anytime the Kanto birds or Corviknight comes in they fold you like laundry. I wish Rillaboom had something in its movepool like thunder punch or SOMETHING ANYTHING to beat those mons

Edit: There is tera blast but I think that might not be worth it on a pokemon like Rillaboom
 
What is this the Smeargle Files?

I do agree that cb Rillaboom is probably the most consistent set Rillaboom has but I do feel like it needs to be experimented with more. Grassy Glide is an amazing move but anytime the Kanto birds or Corviknight comes in they fold you like laundry. I wish Rillaboom had something in its movepool like thunder punch or SOMETHING ANYTHING to beat those mons

Edit: There is tera blast but I think that might not be worth it on a pokemon like Rillaboom
It's so bizarre to me that of all the "big muscular physicals with Ground type access" that Rillaboom doesn't have Rock Slide or Stone Edge in some capacity.

Looking at Rillaboom's movepool reminded me it had Leech Seed and how few good users of that move seem to exist in OU among its limited Grass Types (be it lack of access or electing not to run it).

Paired with Knock support/using it itself, I wonder if Rilla would get any mileage out of Leech Seed. Helps forcing passive damage for staying in or switching around Hazards and combining with its Grassy Terrain for health regen to offset its longevity issues if the opponent pivots resists like the Birds in. Rilla does have options into some of the Leech Seed immunities (non-banded High Horsepower can 2HKO Bulky Ghold if its Balloon pops, Ogerpon is susceptible to Chip and Grassy Glide) and it creates some pressure into mons it wants to avoid contact with (or a way to annoy them if they cripple it in such a manner).

Curious if this is something someone's tried and found does work, tried and didn't work, or hasn't tried because it probably won't work.
 
It's so bizarre to me that of all the "big muscular physicals with Ground type access" that Rillaboom doesn't have Rock Slide or Stone Edge in some capacity.

Looking at Rillaboom's movepool reminded me it had Leech Seed and how few good users of that move seem to exist in OU among its limited Grass Types (be it lack of access or electing not to run it).

Paired with Knock support/using it itself, I wonder if Rilla would get any mileage out of Leech Seed. Helps forcing passive damage for staying in or switching around Hazards and combining with its Grassy Terrain for health regen to offset its longevity issues if the opponent pivots resists like the Birds in. Rilla does have options into some of the Leech Seed immunities (non-banded High Horsepower can 2HKO Bulky Ghold if its Balloon pops, Ogerpon is susceptible to Chip and Grassy Glide) and it creates some pressure into mons it wants to avoid contact with (or a way to annoy them if they cripple it in such a manner).

Curious if this is something someone's tried and found does work, tried and didn't work, or hasn't tried because it probably won't work.
I have tried Leech Seed + Knock Off with Serperior, and it doesn't work so amazingly. Of course, these are different mons, but they function similarly in this regard. Unfortunately, I just don't think Leech Seed is particularly useful in the current meta. The meta is so fast paced that Leech Seed isn't so valuable. The set you proposed is Gliscor fodder, which is already a huge issue in the meta. It's not that it won't put work in, but it's just not as valuable as other sets, nor do I think it is justifiable on a high level team (I would be more than happy to be proven wrong).

When I think of strong Leech Seed users, I really only think of Ferrothorn. Ferro was only able to thrive, however, because of its defensive profile, meaning that it takes very little damage while chipping down the opponent. With Rilla, not only are you taking a lot of damage from attacks, but you are also negating some of the effectiveness of Leech Seed by giving the opponent chip healing with Grassy Terrain.

It can likely work under certain circumstances, but I just don't see it really being a viable set, in the same way I don't think that the other support sets are particularly strong
 
I have tried Leech Seed + Knock Off with Serperior, and it doesn't work so amazingly. Of course, these are different mons, but they function similarly in this regard. Unfortunately, I just don't think Leech Seed is particularly useful in the current meta. The meta is so fast paced that Leech Seed isn't so valuable. The set you proposed is Gliscor fodder, which is already a huge issue in the meta. It's not that it won't put work in, but it's just not as valuable as other sets, nor do I think it is justifiable on a high level team (I would be more than happy to be proven wrong).

When I think of strong Leech Seed users, I really only think of Ferrothorn. Ferro was only able to thrive, however, because of its defensive profile, meaning that it takes very little damage while chipping down the opponent. With Rilla, not only are you taking a lot of damage from attacks, but you are also negating some of the effectiveness of Leech Seed by giving the opponent chip healing with Grassy Terrain.

It can likely work under certain circumstances, but I just don't see it really being a viable set, in the same way I don't think that the other support sets are particularly strong
For the record I should clarify the first idea was Rilla not carrying Knock Off, which obviously comes with its own caveats. I trust you know this better than I, but wanted to be clear what I was thinking since Knock/Seed Serp sounded like both moves on the same mon, which I thought of but wasn't focused on when I mused that bit.
 
Okay I have a question: How do you beat those double Defog stall?
H-stack doesn't work because they can easily Defog even in front of Gholdie. Psyshock Ghold may not work against tera Dark Blissey
I can't 100% tell you how to beat them, but there are ways to keep up at least one hazard on them with Garganacl or Tinkaton. Garg obviously doesn't want to get wisped but you can slowly chip down a weezing with good prediction, and you always pressure corv. You just gotta play patiently and really be careful with your PP. If you have a relatively comfortable switch into the weezing it helps, especially if its something that can put pressure on most stalls. At some point, weezing might have to choose between risking the damage of your salt cure and keeping rocks permanently off, and that's a chance to strike.
Samurott can also pressure both weezing and corv with knock ceaseless and razor shell under the condition that you can bring them often, make good predictions (again), play the long game and fish for some slight good luck.
Ting Lu still does a chunk to Weezing with EQ before the burn, and Corv eventually loses most of its roost PP to ruination, which you can take advantage of. Pain Split is a pain though. If you have other mons that force in Corv or Weezing and knock them off, that's a plus.
If you have a kyurem or corv of your own, you can try making slightly risky predictions with them, stealth rocks is 32 PP and defog is 24, so if your stealth rocker can pressure at least 1 of the defog-ers, then you should be able to pp stall the other.

I hope others will give you some more general advice but this is what I've found is nice when you really do need to keep up hazards.
 
Okay I have a question: How do you beat those double Defog stall?
H-stack doesn't work because they can easily Defog even in front of Gholdie. Psyshock Ghold may not work against tera Dark Blissey
Adding on to all the great points made by Brigtel , few sets I've found really good specifically into the double defog teams are -

1. :Samurott-Hisui: @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sharpness
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Fire
Jolly Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Razor Shell / Flip Turn
- Knock Off
- Taunt

Though this set is very fishy and pretty much only good into stall, it still does the job reliably well to warrant a slot. EVs can be changed to your liking ofc, Tera Fire lets it sit on GWeez's wisp and steam (Also helpful vs Dazzling Gleam :Gholdengo: and :Moltres: in non-stall matchups) while the combination of razor shell + knock enables it to outdamage most defoggers that are paired with gweez - be it :talonflame: or :corviknight:. It is important to give it free switches by playing aggressively and not get chipped early, since it does not have any recovery and its your primary anti-stall mon. Pairing this with :Gholdengo: makes it really straightforward to win the hazard battle.

2. :Ting-Lu: @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 184 HP / 60 Atk / 12 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Ruination
- Stealth Rock/Spikes
- Taunt

Found this set on one of the sample teams so unsure what the EVs are tailored for. Similar to Hamurott, taunt lets it 1v1 gweez while also setting hazards up. However, this set is more suited for offensive teams due to the lack of boots and recovery. Best to lead with it, trade its life to get enough chip on gweez and a hazard up in order to enable your other breakers to pressure the double fog core.

3. :Gholdengo: @ Metal Coat
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 72 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Make It Rain
- Thunderbolt
- Nasty Plot
- Recover

I stole this set from a team I matched vs on the ladder, and found it amazing into most stall matchups and especially the double fog ones, since they are less likely to have a slot for unaware :clodsire:. Though it can function on its own, it is unstoppable when coupled with grassy terrain giving it more opportunites to set up on ground types. It can break through :blissey: on it own which is the primary switch in on most stall teams as shown by the calcs below, and can potentially also bait a tera dark by feigning psyshock. Tbolt lets it pressure :toxapex: with haze, :alomomola: with AV and Spdef :Dondozo:.

+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 408-482 (62.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. +1 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 204-242 (31.2 - 37.1%) -- 81% chance to 3HKO

(Assuming you get the free plot on the turn they switch to blissey, you can nuke it for 63-74% on the second turn. It is extremely unlikely that they click soft boiled on the turn you nuke em, most likely scenario is that they will calm mind and potentially tera dark, which gives you really good odds to kill it on the third turn. If they happen to run leftovers or you get unfavourable rolls, then your plan of action would be to use your other spattkers to chip blissey down to at least 85% after which it cannot switch in to dengo anymore)


Note: Though these sets match up really well into the double fog stall teams, they are by no means auto win matchups, you still need make good plays for you to break through em.
 
Last edited:
For those looking for a heat Rillaboom set, I recommend the following:

:SV/Rillaboom:
Rillaboom (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Grassy Surge
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Grassy Glide
- Tera Blast
- Drain Punch

Tera Fire is here to break Corviknight, Gholdengo, and Scizor for Hawlucha. Wood Hammer is for Dondozo and other phat walls while Drain Punch is there to heal up against Kingambit, Ting-Lu, and Chansey. It's not enough to save it from UU now that Pecharunt and Zamazenta are everywhere, but it certainly has a place as a fringe breaker. EV spread outpaces min speed Gliscor, max speed Kingambit, and Adamant Scizor while minimizing Life Orb recoil.
 
For those looking for a heat Rillaboom set, I recommend the following:

:SV/Rillaboom:
Rillaboom (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Grassy Surge
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Grassy Glide
- Tera Blast
- Drain Punch

Tera Fire is here to break Corviknight, Gholdengo, and Scizor for Hawlucha. Wood Hammer is for Dondozo and other phat walls while Drain Punch is there to heal up against Kingambit, Ting-Lu, and Chansey. It's not enough to save it from UU now that Pecharunt and Zamazenta are everywhere, but it certainly has a place as a fringe breaker. EV spread outpaces min speed Gliscor, max speed Kingambit, and Adamant Scizor while minimizing Life Orb recoil.
tbh I'd try this with boots. Rilla is super weak to hazards and lo wood hammer is just suicide.
 
Okay I have a question: How do you beat those double Defog stall?
H-stack doesn't work because they can easily Defog even in front of Gholdie. Psyshock Ghold may not work against tera Dark Blissey
Gholdengo @ Ability Shield
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Nasty Plot
- Make It Rain
- Shadow Ball

Run no-fun-allowed Gholdengo if you really want to grief them. The teams fall apart when they can't clear. Pair this with spikes and a breaker that forces out gliscor and you just win. You have to use this on hazard stack teams that really want to go all-in on that approach, though. Good on "old school" Glimmora offenses too.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2338373929-5178sng3exd8iaf8jmh1ai8o1vk80q2pw

Here's a funny Garg webs lmao. Keldeo doesn't exist.

:gliscor::garganacl::gholdengo::araquanid::iron valiant::ceruledge:
https://pokepast.es/f60231f2dc32c177
 
Last edited:
I’m going to start this up again:

Kyurem needs to be banned. The amount of guess work and luck it requires to beat it is too much for the tier. Especially for any sort of balance team.

See turn 23: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2338312745

There are always ways you can play better, but freeze, on top of all of Kyurem’s other sets makes it extremely difficult to stop consistently.

This forum has been over the merits of Kyurem 100000 times but I have yet to see an argument outside of “I’m afraid of ZapKingLu” and “get rocks up”

I think at the end of the day Kyurem bulk, variety of sets, coverage, and access to freeze hax is just overwhelming for the tier and it takes a degree of guess work to win a match up against it. There have been a lot of games where I say on preview “well if it’s ABC set I win, if it’s XYZ set I lose”
 
I’m going to start this up again:

Kyurem needs to be banned. The amount of guess work and luck it requires to beat it is too much for the tier. Especially for any sort of balance team.

See turn 23: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2338312745

There are always ways you can play better, but freeze, on top of all of Kyurem’s other sets makes it extremely difficult to stop consistently.

This forum has been over the merits of Kyurem 100000 times but I have yet to see an argument outside of “I’m afraid of ZapKingLu” and “get rocks up”

I think at the end of the day Kyurem bulk, variety of sets, coverage, and access to freeze hax is just overwhelming for the tier and it takes a degree of guess work to win a match up against it. There have been a lot of games where I say on preview “well if it’s ABC set I win, if it’s XYZ set I lose”
I was originally going to say it's stupid to claim that nobody's made a good argument to keep Kyurem in the tier and then not do the bare minimum to look in the places where people posted those arguments, but honestly, the Kyurem suspect thread was such a cesspool that I can't blame you for it (very glad for the qualified threads now).

But the point is, you can think Kyurem's broken (almost 60% of voters last time did), but it is really not that hard to find thorough, well-researched arguments for why Kyurem is fine in this meta, because this argument was had in-depth just a few months ago and that suspect thread is still publicly available. I understand that wading through that thread is a frustrating experience but like, literally the most-liked posts on that thread (besides some comments talking more broadly about reqs and council involvement) are well-developed anti-ban arguments. You don't need me to go through your replay and tell you how to go through your team to make it more resilient to Kyurem or how you could have played to better manage it (or honestly how you actually handled Kyurem totally fine and it was the other interactions that game that sunk it), because until you're talking about the best players in the world playing important games a single replay just doesn't mean that much, not even a real case of Kyurem forcing its way through a prepared team for a sweep or just breaking down a dedicated defensive core. Much more often you are better off working with a bunch of replays, stats, and theory to argue your point.

Here's a great post by SupaGMoney, here's one that pretty thoroughly covers pro- and anti-ban arguments by Storm Zone, and while this isn't quite up there with the most liked posts on that thread, I think that this one by xavgb is probably the best anti-ban post in the whole thread. You can obviously disagree with them, and you can also argue that the meta's different now! But if you're going to argue that Kyurem should be banned you should look for the real counter-arguments and engage with them, rather than just make up a strawman.
 
I was originally going to say it's stupid to claim that nobody's made a good argument to keep Kyurem in the tier and then not do the bare minimum to look in the places where people posted those arguments, but honestly, the Kyurem suspect thread was such a cesspool that I can't blame you for it (very glad for the qualified threads now).

But the point is, you can think Kyurem's broken (almost 60% of voters last time did), but it is really not that hard to find thorough, well-researched arguments for why Kyurem is fine in this meta, because this argument was had in-depth just a few months ago and that suspect thread is still publicly available. I understand that wading through that thread is a frustrating experience but like, literally the most-liked posts on that thread (besides some comments talking more broadly about reqs and council involvement) are well-developed anti-ban arguments. You don't need me to go through your replay and tell you how to go through your team to make it more resilient to Kyurem or how you could have played to better manage it (or honestly how you actually handled Kyurem totally fine and it was the other interactions that game that sunk it), because until you're talking about the best players in the world playing important games a single replay just doesn't mean that much, not even a real case of Kyurem forcing its way through a prepared team for a sweep or just breaking down a dedicated defensive core. Much more often you are better off working with a bunch of replays, stats, and theory to argue your point.

Here's a great post by SupaGMoney, here's one that pretty thoroughly covers pro- and anti-ban arguments by Storm Zone, and while this isn't quite up there with the most liked posts on that thread, I think that this one by xavgb is probably the best anti-ban post in the whole thread. You can obviously disagree with them, and you can also argue that the meta's different now! But if you're going to argue that Kyurem should be banned you should look for the real counter-arguments and engage with them, rather than just make up a strawman.
I appreciate you linking those, I will check them out. I will say I noticed that XavGB and does not mention freeze in his analysis at all and StormZone is rather dismissive of it outside of the sub protect set, the status is something I feel puts Kyu over the edge.
The strongest arguments for DNB are Kyu’s middling speed stat and it’s weakness to hazards.
StormZone says in his DNB points that guessing is just part of gen 9, which may just be a difference of opinion, but I think Kyurem goes a bit beyond trying to figure out a Tera type.

I’m not trying to establish a strawman, I just felt the debate got quite toxic and ended up being unnamed YouTuber-adjacent player saying “skill issue” when anyone expressed a differing opinion. I know a single replay is not the end all be all of arguments, that would be ridiculous. I just felt it was emblematic of my frustrations. But at all levels I think we see how Kyurem’s sets are extremely limiting to slower playstyles. I also really want to clarify I am NOT asking for team building help, I wouldn’t go to this thread for that.

I feel, just like moon, Kyurem sets are quite meta dependent/adaptable, but I do think it benefits from the metagame created in Moon’s absence and puts immense strain on the team builder.
 
I was originally going to say it's stupid to claim that nobody's made a good argument to keep Kyurem in the tier and then not do the bare minimum to look in the places where people posted those arguments, but honestly, the Kyurem suspect thread was such a cesspool that I can't blame you for it (very glad for the qualified threads now).

But the point is, you can think Kyurem's broken (almost 60% of voters last time did), but it is really not that hard to find thorough, well-researched arguments for why Kyurem is fine in this meta, because this argument was had in-depth just a few months ago and that suspect thread is still publicly available. I understand that wading through that thread is a frustrating experience but like, literally the most-liked posts on that thread (besides some comments talking more broadly about reqs and council involvement) are well-developed anti-ban arguments. You don't need me to go through your replay and tell you how to go through your team to make it more resilient to Kyurem or how you could have played to better manage it (or honestly how you actually handled Kyurem totally fine and it was the other interactions that game that sunk it), because until you're talking about the best players in the world playing important games a single replay just doesn't mean that much, not even a real case of Kyurem forcing its way through a prepared team for a sweep or just breaking down a dedicated defensive core. Much more often you are better off working with a bunch of replays, stats, and theory to argue your point.

Here's a great post by SupaGMoney, here's one that pretty thoroughly covers pro- and anti-ban arguments by Storm Zone, and while this isn't quite up there with the most liked posts on that thread, I think that this one by xavgb is probably the best anti-ban post in the whole thread. You can obviously disagree with them, and you can also argue that the meta's different now! But if you're going to argue that Kyurem should be banned you should look for the real counter-arguments and engage with them, rather than just make up a strawman.
In supa’s post the mons he listed for specs switch-ins are honestly hilarious

His list: Glowking (Gking), Balloon Gholdengo, Iron Crown, Kingambit, Moltres, Balloon Tinkaton, Clefable, Scizor, both Ninetales, Blissey, Tyranitar, AV Hoopa

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Iron Crown: 184-218 (57.3 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 294-346 (74.6 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 392-462 (99.4 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Moltres: 290-342 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Moltres: 238-280 (62.1 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Moltres: 178-210 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 338-398 (99.1 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 177-209 (56.9 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Blizzard vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 162-191 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 144-169 (39.5 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Vulnerable to hazards)
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 195-230 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Very "well researched" arguments

Also can we please stop acting like freeze is some insane rarity that almost never happens or something lol. Ice beam and freeze dry are already ridiculously spammable moves as is. They shouldn't have a 10% chance of becoming ohko moves on top of that lmao.
 
Last edited:
Also can we please stop acting like freeze is some insane rarity that almost never happens or something lol. Ice beam and freeze dry are already ridiculously spammable moves as is. They shouldn't have a 10% chance of becoming ohko moves on top of that lmao.
This is my real issue with Kyu as a whole. Sure, the unpredictabilty sucks. Sure, its Tera Type is basically "pray for tera ice". Sure, it's also bulkier than it should be. But half the time in the process of trying to scout (unless you have protect) you risk the very real, very high, chance of it outright removing a dedicated potential answer due to the sheer safeness of its moves. Nothing likes switching in on Ice Beam or Freeze Dry, but the few mons that have to are also the best insurance until oops! better luck next time!

it makes an already contentious mon feel deeply, deeply unfun. While not entirely similar, I find Wpon's Ivy crit chance ridiculous for the same reason. Much higher than freeze, but the ability to delete a check or switch in for effectively nothing drives me insane.
 
Last edited:
In supa’s post the mons he listed for specs switch-ins are honestly hilarious

His list: Glowking (Gking), Balloon Gholdengo, Iron Crown, Kingambit, Moltres, Balloon Tinkaton, Clefable, Scizor, both Ninetales, Blissey, Tyranitar, AV Hoopa

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Iron Crown: 184-218 (57.3 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 294-346 (74.6 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 392-462 (99.4 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Moltres: 290-342 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Moltres: 238-280 (62.1 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Moltres: 178-210 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 338-398 (99.1 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 177-209 (56.9 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Blizzard vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 162-191 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 144-169 (39.5 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Vulnerable to hazards)
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 195-230 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Very "well researched" arguments

Also can we please stop acting like freeze is some insane rarity that almost never happens or something lol. Ice beam and freeze dry are already ridiculously spammable moves as is. They shouldn't have a 10% chance of becoming ohko moves on top of that lmao.

I never like including Tera in calcs like these, especially for wall breakers. For sweepers it's a little more reasonable as they can quickly become a 6-0.

Tera is worth more than a single mon in nearly every matchup. It is frequently worth several mons. We all know Tera is an insanely powerful mechanic and it's disingenuous to toss it into calcs so lightly.

Would you be complaining that your opponent's Dynamax wall breaker broke your wall? No, that's what the mechanic does. Same with Tera.
 
In supa’s post the mons he listed for specs switch-ins are honestly hilarious

His list: Glowking (Gking), Balloon Gholdengo, Iron Crown, Kingambit, Moltres, Balloon Tinkaton, Clefable, Scizor, both Ninetales, Blissey, Tyranitar, AV Hoopa

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Iron Crown: 184-218 (57.3 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 294-346 (74.6 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 392-462 (99.4 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Moltres: 290-342 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Moltres: 238-280 (62.1 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Moltres: 178-210 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 338-398 (99.1 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 177-209 (56.9 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Blizzard vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 162-191 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 144-169 (39.5 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Vulnerable to hazards)
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 195-230 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Very "well researched" arguments

Also can we please stop acting like freeze is some insane rarity that almost never happens or something lol. Ice beam and freeze dry are already ridiculously spammable moves as is. They shouldn't have a 10% chance of becoming ohko moves on top of that lmao.
sorry dont mean to be rude to you personally, but this is balance noob brain rot. why do you think you are supposed to be able switch in and beat, defensively, a 130 SpA choice specs breaker that is beating you at predictions??? the point is that it puts holes in do-nothing fat teams.

here are plenty of things to check kyurem for you
1744152232712.png


You can also run stall too if you want to just wall it. If you really want to goof kyurem, then use :frosmoth:. thing is heinous with support. there's also, wait for it...stealth rock! wow!

I do think the DD sets are cheap, but that's because of tera, and for some reason that didn't get banned, so that goes for everything with setup in OU.
 
sorry dont mean to be rude to you personally, but this is balance noob brain rot. why do you think you are supposed to be able switch in and beat, defensively, a 130 SpA choice specs breaker that is beating you at predictions??? the point is that it puts holes in do-nothing fat teams.

here are plenty of things to check kyurem for you
View attachment 730463

You can also run stall too if you want to just wall it. If you really want to goof kyurem, then use :frosmoth:. thing is heinous with support. there's also, wait for it...stealth rock! wow!

I do think the DD sets are cheap, but that's because of tera, and for some reason that didn't get banned, so that goes for everything with setup in OU.
Frosmoth is funny I definitely sweat when I see it at preview. I ran into one that other day that wasn't boots though, damn I felt bad watching it take 50% switching in. NEVER sack your physical attacker if one is still alive
 
genuinely, over half of this list can't even ohko it and get blown up in return. Also theres no way you just listed ZAPDOS as a kyurem check.... I'd prefer to not have to sac a mon every time glowking clicks chilly reception.
the point is you have gameplay vs kyurem if you use something faster either by hitting it and punishing its entries or status.

plus, if you sac a mon everytime chilly reception happens, then I'd argue gking is the issue, not whatever comes in for free afterward!
 
Back
Top