Bug moving up 1 slot from D is funny to see
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Metagame SV Monotype Metagame Discussion [Indigo Disk]
- Thread starter Rio Vidal
- Start date
Refuse to accept Psychic is D
If you look at the numbers, then psychic is right in the middle of bug and ice, so it wouldn’t have been unreasonable to put it at the bottom of C instead.Refuse to accept Psychic is D
Tiers were determined using k-means clustering (k=5).
While in theory yes. In practice there is very few mons in the tier that can actually take the combo of EQ + Toxic reliably. Outside of Air Balloon Poison- and Steel-types (which out of this list you only see Sneasler, Tran, Ghold, and Treads mainly with Balloons), Weezing-G, The Metal Birds, and opposing Gliscor nothing can come in safely. Sub meanwhile is a rarity on a lot of mons with the tier's only main Sub mons being DDance/Status Dragapult which is generally told the second one sees leftovers or the fact it didn't take rocks damage and Sub Suicune which, everyone goes to whatever reliably checks cune on their flyings. The other Sub mons are either niches on popular mons with far more used sets like Landorus-T which prefers Scarf or being Lando-I or are struggling to fit into teams in the first place like Hydreigon and Moltres-G.
This isn't something I bring up a lot, this was just from one TN game. Game in question. But still, the fact that Life Orb Iron Valiant's Ice Punch isn't even a roll to kill Phys def Gliscor is disgusting in my opinion. And while yes this just deletes SpD variants, SpD Variants can still just go to Torn-T and threaten it with Bleakwind or to Moltres or Skarmory before pivoting into Torn-T or Landorus on the follow up TBolt. Granted Valiant is still one of the best anti fly mons in the tier
You don't majorly need to invest in Speed. If you want to outspeed anything your targets are Modest Volcanion (60 Speed EVs) or Modest Raging bolt (8 Speed EVs + Jolly nature) Which still leaves a lot of room for bulk. And while the choice between Knock and Facade is annoying, most times it isn't a choice since Knock is just the far better move as Facade is only really need to quickly break some Flying-types (notably Zapdos and Articuno are both 2HKOed by Facade.) Meanwhile Geezing doesn't break SD Gliscor, yeah it annoys it but Gliscor if it ever decides its had enough can just pivot to Torn-T, Moltres, Cuno, or Corv (bit of a concern on those last two if it goes for Wisp) and waste its PP so it can no longer check Gliscor.
A lot of this comes down to what each type is running.
Fighting does like a Water-type but Urshifu-R if it opts to run Scarf has to worry about Rocky Helmet, Zapdos Static along with Gyarados being an immense hard to break problem for it (along with it never actually threatening types like Water or Poison reliably) or is Punching glove which gets outsped and dealt with by the likes of Torn-T and Zapdos.
Expert Belt Latios while good into Flying gives up a lot of breaking power it would majorly appreciate with Choice Specs, notably Expert belt turns Draco Meteor from a boulder into a stone, like it still hurts but it could hurt more. Hydreigon meanwhile is a rarity on Dragon being a 4th fighting weakness along with also having issues into Cuno if it opts to run Earthpower which for my money is better (Smacks Tran, Hoodra, Hands, and AMuk better than Flamethrower and if you're bringing Hydra, you're running it to beat Steel.)
Ghost while generally good into flying can still be annoyed by Gliscor spreading Toxic while Ghold usually has to run away from Gliscor instead of fighting it most of the time.
Your issue with Poison oriented metagame comes down to either a teambuilding (or a bit of pilot) issue or Grass bias. We just got the ESword type ranked 8th out of 18 types. Yes without Gliscor Poison V flying becomes more reasonable but still hella winnable for Flying. And still wouldn't help Poison's Ground (or basically any other type). This reads as an OU player arguing that they shouldn't ban X threat because ZapKingLu would become too strong again. Gliscor's ban wouldn't destroy the fun of Gen 9 monotype, it would enhance it for so many.
I don't know what considers optimal Ice Coverage in your mind but to me Ice coverage is Ice coverage that outspeeds Gliscor and is reliable outside of smacking Gliscor. While there are several mons that can have these optimal Ice attack, most types are stuck with one at best and the types that can have more always have a but in them. Like yes Dragon has Latios and Kyurem, but Kyurem struggles to fit onto Dragon, has no recourse against the hazards Dragon has no good way of dealing with and provides a 4th fighting wekaness to deal with. Or Ground which does have Scarf Tusk to support Mamoswine, but this puts all your special attacking eggs into Landorus-I which if it fails, Iron Defense Skarmory just wins so most opt to run Mixed Chomp or Shocks instead.
Bolt Beam is also just a rarity the main boltbeamers that come to mind are Iron Hands (Deathly afraid of Moltres burns and struggles to break Skarmory) EBelt Latios which is once again sacrificing power to reliably deal with Flying, and Mixed Valiant. Outside of those 3 very few opt in Boltbeam with most forgoing the bolt or the beam. Or they just lack the bolt or the beam.
Also how does it being a setup sweeper make it easier to remove? It can still run plenty of bulk while using SD.
The shift in focus to Gliscor to hyperfixate a ban on needs to be looked at more carefully. Specifically, the argument about how the current mon affects teambuilding. I believe people fall for the trap of the illusion of more expressive teambuilding if X mon is removed. With the most recent Gouging Fire ban, I haven’t seen a huge shift in teambuilding at all. We still have the same cores, the same compositions for the most part, and the same piloting in the matchups between the good types. Gouging Fire was seen as the most centralizing mon in the meta and the teambuilder. Yet, arguably, the meta has stayed mostly the same a month and a half later, going into MPL. The same goes for the suspect before Gouging Fire, that being Zamazenta.
News team cores and compositions were propagated should Zamazenta and Gouging Fire were removed from the tier. However, I believe there’s a fair majority still using the same teams that may appear to be outdated, but are still just as effective and viable in the meta as before. And now Gliscor is up next for this same illusion? I don’t think so. The last suspect that led to a ban that drastically change teambuilding was Kingambit. I wouldn’t go as far as to say Kingambit “held the tier together”, but out of the previous meta warping mons among Kingambit, Chien Pao, and Baxcalibur, Kingambit was the more reasonable litmus test to see if a team was viable in the meta.
“Can this team win at least one game against Kingambit? If yes, then it’s worth working on. If no, then the team needs to be reevaluated.”
I don’t believe Gliscor is the most centralizing mon in the tier currently. I believe the focus should be on Archaludon instead. The walling, breaking, and utility that Archaludon provides for both Dragon and Steel, arguably still the top 2 tops in the meta, demands attention from the community. Peng wants to mention max Def living Gliscor living Ice Punch max Atk + LO Iron Valiant. While Archaludon is living a STAB Close Combat from that same Iron Valiant and killing said Iron Valiant in return with Flash Cannon. Even without the SpD drop, no SpA invested Flash cannon still OHKOs Iron Valiant. Granted, I know it’s 4x weakness versus a 2x weakness, Ice Punch is non-STAB while Close Combat is STAB. Furthermore, this is max Def Gliscor vs near max Def Archaludon.
If you want to really open up teambuilding again for everyone, argue for Archaludon to be looked at instead.
News team cores and compositions were propagated should Zamazenta and Gouging Fire were removed from the tier. However, I believe there’s a fair majority still using the same teams that may appear to be outdated, but are still just as effective and viable in the meta as before. And now Gliscor is up next for this same illusion? I don’t think so. The last suspect that led to a ban that drastically change teambuilding was Kingambit. I wouldn’t go as far as to say Kingambit “held the tier together”, but out of the previous meta warping mons among Kingambit, Chien Pao, and Baxcalibur, Kingambit was the more reasonable litmus test to see if a team was viable in the meta.
“Can this team win at least one game against Kingambit? If yes, then it’s worth working on. If no, then the team needs to be reevaluated.”
I don’t believe Gliscor is the most centralizing mon in the tier currently. I believe the focus should be on Archaludon instead. The walling, breaking, and utility that Archaludon provides for both Dragon and Steel, arguably still the top 2 tops in the meta, demands attention from the community. Peng wants to mention max Def living Gliscor living Ice Punch max Atk + LO Iron Valiant. While Archaludon is living a STAB Close Combat from that same Iron Valiant and killing said Iron Valiant in return with Flash Cannon. Even without the SpD drop, no SpA invested Flash cannon still OHKOs Iron Valiant. Granted, I know it’s 4x weakness versus a 2x weakness, Ice Punch is non-STAB while Close Combat is STAB. Furthermore, this is max Def Gliscor vs near max Def Archaludon.
If you want to really open up teambuilding again for everyone, argue for Archaludon to be looked at instead.
Maybe my impression of Gliscor is wrong but i need to correct a few things here.
And idk about your "Targets" either, but you dont invest for Modest Volcanion or Raging bolt. Volcanion isnt really a mon u see anyway, it just happens to have the same speed tier that you want to outspeed (Base 70s, most notabliy Bisharp which actually does have some Usage)
You barely see Raging Bolt either, and if you see it its not full speed (usually hitting the magic number 240 to outspeed Base 70s) so you still outspeed with your "Modest Volcanion Investment".
The thing you want to actually outspeed is NP Dengo, which is a huge Problem for flying which Speedcreeps some Gliscors even.
Zapdos doesnt really have the slot in Flying Teams unless you go MU fishing, especially Max Spatk Max Speed Zapdos? (which i think you are talking about since otherwise it wouldnt really outspeed and kill)
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I honestly fail to see any good argument for why Gliscor is banworthy.
It doesn’t dominate the metagame on its own - it thrives because of team synergy, especially on Flying, not because it’s inherently overwhelming or unmanageable. It has plenty of natural threats and counterplay, which means it doesn’t meet the definition of being broken. You can check it, pressure it, and play around it with the right tools - even use it as fodder.
It also doesn’t make games purely about matchup luck or randomness. Maybe some annoying Double tects, butoverall, battles involving Gliscor still reward skillful play, prediction and managing your Tools. So its not really uncompetetive either.
The most common concern is that Gliscor can contribute to slow, grindy, and repetitive game states - especially on Flying teams where it synergizes extremely well with defensive teammates like Corviknight and Articuno. This can lead to games that feel low-interaction and overly passive.
That said, this alone doesn’t make Gliscor unhealthy. UNhealthy implies that it undermines skill expression or meaningfully harms the overall metagame - and I don’t think that’s the case here. Flying still has viable offensive and balanced options, and Gliscor doesn't invalidate creativity or reduce every game to the same win condition. It’s strong, yes - but it doesn’t erase the need for thoughtful play, or does it create a metagame dominated entirely by its presence.
I mean yes - Poison really struggles with Gliscor forcing it to prepare specifically for it
But this is true for other Pokemon too, like Fluttermane, Ceruledge, Bisharp, Scizor, Kleavor, Archaludon, Ogerpon Variants
They all are very hard for certain Types to deal with, its just the nature of the Tier we are playing due to our Limited pool of Pokemon we can use.
In the end, Gliscor is a strong and sometimes frustrating Pokémon to go against, but that's just not enough. It performs well because it fits into its type’s strengths - not because it’s oppressive on its own. There’s just not enough here to justify banning it.
Idk why we are ignoring stuff like Hatterne, Archaludon, p2, blissey, Ursaluna, Ting Lu not to mention mons with Encore/Sub/Taunt that just shut it down and/or use it as Setup Fodder.
Unless you are very scared of Ceruledge, Physdef Gliscor isnt really a thing. And idk why that even matters.
I dont know about this point. Imo dedicating your nature or 60 EVs into speed is already a significant investment.
And idk about your "Targets" either, but you dont invest for Modest Volcanion or Raging bolt. Volcanion isnt really a mon u see anyway, it just happens to have the same speed tier that you want to outspeed (Base 70s, most notabliy Bisharp which actually does have some Usage)
You barely see Raging Bolt either, and if you see it its not full speed (usually hitting the magic number 240 to outspeed Base 70s) so you still outspeed with your "Modest Volcanion Investment".
The thing you want to actually outspeed is NP Dengo, which is a huge Problem for flying which Speedcreeps some Gliscors even.
I mean... Fighting should always run Punching Gloves, u have better scrafers with better utility and speed tier on Fighting Teams.
Torn-T has to hit its Bleakwind Storm, not only on Urshifu but also on Valiant btw, and at the same Time has to stay healthy enough (50%+) to take a +2 Aqua jet.
Zapdos doesnt really have the slot in Flying Teams unless you go MU fishing, especially Max Spatk Max Speed Zapdos? (which i think you are talking about since otherwise it wouldnt really outspeed and kill)
Dealing with Gliscor is fairly easy and doesnt require too gimmicky Sets or mons - Since its already very weak to Ice, which is a great Coverage in general - not only due to Gliscor.
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I honestly fail to see any good argument for why Gliscor is banworthy.
It doesn’t dominate the metagame on its own - it thrives because of team synergy, especially on Flying, not because it’s inherently overwhelming or unmanageable. It has plenty of natural threats and counterplay, which means it doesn’t meet the definition of being broken. You can check it, pressure it, and play around it with the right tools - even use it as fodder.
It also doesn’t make games purely about matchup luck or randomness. Maybe some annoying Double tects, butoverall, battles involving Gliscor still reward skillful play, prediction and managing your Tools. So its not really uncompetetive either.
The most common concern is that Gliscor can contribute to slow, grindy, and repetitive game states - especially on Flying teams where it synergizes extremely well with defensive teammates like Corviknight and Articuno. This can lead to games that feel low-interaction and overly passive.
That said, this alone doesn’t make Gliscor unhealthy. UNhealthy implies that it undermines skill expression or meaningfully harms the overall metagame - and I don’t think that’s the case here. Flying still has viable offensive and balanced options, and Gliscor doesn't invalidate creativity or reduce every game to the same win condition. It’s strong, yes - but it doesn’t erase the need for thoughtful play, or does it create a metagame dominated entirely by its presence.
I mean yes - Poison really struggles with Gliscor forcing it to prepare specifically for it
But this is true for other Pokemon too, like Fluttermane, Ceruledge, Bisharp, Scizor, Kleavor, Archaludon, Ogerpon Variants
They all are very hard for certain Types to deal with, its just the nature of the Tier we are playing due to our Limited pool of Pokemon we can use.
In the end, Gliscor is a strong and sometimes frustrating Pokémon to go against, but that's just not enough. It performs well because it fits into its type’s strengths - not because it’s oppressive on its own. There’s just not enough here to justify banning it.
Most of these aren't fond of Gliscor still.
Hatt and Arch are fair calls. Granted neither still appreciate coming in on EQ. Along with that Fairy isn't fairing so great right now so maybe Hatt gets dropped on its structures for something else? I dunno (also Psychic is a non factor). Arch Meanwhile if its the Scarf variant doesn't appreciate taking 50% along with really not appreciating Knock variants of Gliscor if it is defensive. Also Archaludon might not be long for this metagame so it won't be able to check Gliscor if its banned.
P2 isn't the most common threat to see being on about 50% of Normal teams on ladder while only having 2 appearance in Normal's 8 games in MWP. Along with that P2 only absorbs Toxic if it has Trace and comes in on Poison heal which going of MWP and ladder data, P2 only has half the time and if it has to switch out for any reason after absorbing Toxic then comes back in on anything else later that isn't Gliscor, now its stuck taking the Toxic Damage.
Blissey takes more from EQ than it does back with seismic toss and only absorbs Toxic in a vacuum of it can natural cure it off later but still doesn't like getting hit with it in the moment.
Luna doesn't want to take Toxic as it does more chip damage than Flame Orb, if it already inflicted with a status then fair play. Also if Gliscor reveals Knock as Luna comes in hoping to take a Toxic, now you've got a Guts Ursaluna with no damage boost.
Ting-Lu why? Unless its the Rest variant on Bulky Ground archtypes Ting-Lu wants to avoid Toxic at all costs to chip heal with leftovers.
Move wise, Encore is incredibly niche in the current Metagame with the only prevalent user being Sableye. Others do exist but are generally more niche mons such as Tinkaton, Salazzle, and Maushold.
I covered Sub last time. Granted I did forget about Zapdos (a mon you seem to think isn't worth considering) and Spectrier.
Taunt I'm struggling to think of anything that runs this move consistently. Its Okidogi and DDance Gyarados that will regularly opt to run this move? Dogi has to choose between Taunt or Sub and loses to Gliscor anyway unless its running Ice Punch which is rare outside of Scarf and AV sets while DDance Gyarados is rare set on a rare mon that may also opt to run Sub in this slot instead.
Of course there is probably more of these guys that I am forgetting but generally speaking a lot of them are generally one offs like the guy running Sub Scizor.
Physdef Gliscor is not the main set, but it is seeing developments, notably one the main Flying teams currently preforming well is running a far more physically bulky Gliscor set (That being Glisc, Corv, Scarf Lando-I, Torn-T, Cuno, fast Molt). As someone who ended up coming to phys def Gliscor through dumb experimentation it does do solid work since it can fufill roles similar to take of Skarmory but with a different defensive spread.
With Volcanion, its because it is what is listed on the analysis and my mind jumped first to that (reminder the analysis was written in DLC1 so Bisharp was a non factor), Raging Bolt is similarly for analysis reasons as speed creeping is a big no no (so no 64 speed Gliscors) And while these are somewhat annoying loses in bulk there still perfectly fine to deal with a lot of the time.
You still see Scarf Urshifu-R on Fighting a reasonable bit of the time, 23% on ladder last month to be exact. Yes Punching gloves is better but it still something to be weary about.
Its somewhat manageable to keep Torn-T healthy (I find it to be so anyway) to check +2 Jet. Zapdos meanwhile is still worth considering, while only seeing 12% usage on ladder last month, its still B-Rank on the Viability rankings (alongside the other Kanto Birds, Gyarados, and the Landorus formes) while seeing the exact same usage as Landorus-I during MWP (at 12 games out of Flying's 39) being comparable to other common flying-types on ladder like Moltres (9) Articuno (13) Skarmory and Enamorus (14). I personally still think Zapdos is good for its ability to do incredible work into Water and the Flying mirror along with being solid into most other types outside of Dragon and Ground cause its Electric STAB does jack and Hurricane is Hurricane.
This is true, but I personally believe Flying is a dominant presence its infuriating defensive core needs to be knocked down a peg with Gliscor being the most prominent target to focus on and the one that if removed would do the most damage. While the removal of Corv and Torn-T would hurt Flying's core as well I believe their impact on being removed would be far less noticable than Gliscors (granted all I really have to go off is playing against Flying teams without one of these three on ladder and usually finding the teams not packing Gliscor the easiest to manage.)
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Maybe i need to clarify my points a bit
Idk why suddenly Knock is up for discussion because i was saying that Arch is a mon that can take the Combination of EQ and Toxic.
Two appearances out of eight games is way too little to base a sweeping claim on. Teams in tournaments are built with matchup scouting, player tendencies, and specific prep in mind - not necessarily just what’s best overall. It doesn't invalidate the fact that Porygon2 can check Gliscor very well.
Again Knock argument for some reason - not relevant.
I decided to use Sub Moltres-G which profits a lot of Gliscor not being able to touch it, and you can do this for many other mons too - look at Royal Reloadeds RMT With Taunt DD Kommo-o which does the same thing.
Taunt Kommo-o isnt common but that doesnt mean it isnt good.
"i have some set changes to improve problematic mus
phys def glis for gouging/ceru/can take one from shifu and toxic/pp stall sub zama/take like only 50 form iron hands and like only 60 from iron treads"
So yeah was mainly for GF/Ceru/Zama maybe we can add Hands i guess - but it was made with a diffrent Meta at the time, and while it still puts in work i think its just less optimal atm.
Check something like mamoswine, Meowscarada, Scarf Shifu, or punish other Triple axle/Multihitusers. I mean you can run Moltres too, but it doesnt really appreciate getting knocked in those mus.
They do diffrent things imo or at least i wouldnt compare them.
But yeah lets not use outdated things as an argument for the current situation.
In serious play, Fighting teams lean heavily on Punching Glove because it has the power and consistency needed to deal with the current meta in which scarf struggles/is just not as good/or simply outclassed
And i wouldn't take Viabilty Ranking as an argument since something like Cuno is also only B-Rank or Gyarados being B-Rank too.
And yes - Zapos has different usage in Tournament Play which again, is due to matchup scouting, Prep, and for specific Matchups
Looking at usage and ignoring dragons, Water/Flying/Steel have a lot of usage and Zapdos does very well into them.
But that doesn’t translate well to ladder, where you can’t rely on knowing your matchup. From my experience laddering these past few months, Zapdos is almost non-existent in Flying matchups.
Lastly, I think it's important to clarify how usage stats are often misread. The 12% usage for Zapdos at 1630+ is weighted usage, meaning teams at higher ratings are given more value. In contrast, unweighted usage shows Zapdos at 17%, which includes all teams regardless of rating. That drop from 17% to 12% clearly suggests Zapdos sees less usage the higher up you go - indicating it's not as good on optimized Flying teams.
For comparison, take Articuno: its unweighted usage is 23%, but weighted it jumps to 47%. That tells us Articuno is much more common on higherrated teams, since its a core piece in good Flying Teams.
To conclude, I want to emphasize that everything I've written here reflects my personal experience and perspective on the meta. I’m not claiming to have the definitive answer or saying that my view is the only valid one I can see why people are frustrated with it or why they think its banworthy. I'm kinda trying to show where I’m coming from and why I feel Gliscor, while strong, isn’t banworthy.
Obv im talking about defensive Archaludon, scarf is only a thing on Steel and steel has way better Pokemon that can sit on Gliscor.
Idk why suddenly Knock is up for discussion because i was saying that Arch is a mon that can take the Combination of EQ and Toxic.
Thats the thing. P2 doesnt have to switch out, theres not a mon that does enough damage to P2 in the flying matchup, and it just Boltbeams away spreading paras on the whole team, the only thing that happens is that it loses its pp. And it can always hard switch into Gliscor anyway.
Just because something isn’t common doesn’t mean it’s not effective. Porygon2 still hard checks Gliscor. Usage ≠ effectiveness.
Two appearances out of eight games is way too little to base a sweeping claim on. Teams in tournaments are built with matchup scouting, player tendencies, and specific prep in mind - not necessarily just what’s best overall. It doesn't invalidate the fact that Porygon2 can check Gliscor very well.
Its more about setting rocks and stalling Eq pps. Blissey usually just sets rocks up, Seismic toss doesnt beat Anything on flying anyway, and maybe try to Twave/Hwish something.
Still Luna doesnt care about toxic, it does do Huge damage to Flying if its able to setup and can even get Hwished back by indeede/blissey.
Again Knock argument for some reason - not relevant.
Because Ting-Lu doesnt do anything to Flying, with its Combination of EQ/Hslam it doesnt hit most mons anyway, even Ruination doesnt really matter. It just setup rocks, and clicks WW until it dies. Its one of the Mons like Luna that doesnt care if it gets Toxict.
Prevalence isn't required for an argument to be valid. It's not about “how many people use this tech,” it’s about whether strong, viable counterplay exists. If Gliscor can be reliably punished by certain utility moves or stallbreakers, that undercuts the argument that it’s oppressive or banworthy.
I decided to use Sub Moltres-G which profits a lot of Gliscor not being able to touch it, and you can do this for many other mons too - look at Royal Reloadeds RMT With Taunt DD Kommo-o which does the same thing.
Taunt Kommo-o isnt common but that doesnt mean it isnt good.
Let me just Quote the Person who build this Team:
"i have some set changes to improve problematic mus
phys def glis for gouging/ceru/can take one from shifu and toxic/pp stall sub zama/take like only 50 form iron hands and like only 60 from iron treads"
So yeah was mainly for GF/Ceru/Zama maybe we can add Hands i guess - but it was made with a diffrent Meta at the time, and while it still puts in work i think its just less optimal atm.
It doesnt do the same thing ig. Skarmory mainly is run because it can give you Hazards and you can take them off of Gliscor for example.
Check something like mamoswine, Meowscarada, Scarf Shifu, or punish other Triple axle/Multihitusers. I mean you can run Moltres too, but it doesnt really appreciate getting knocked in those mus.
They do diffrent things imo or at least i wouldnt compare them.
Im a bit confused about this. Raging Bolts Sample Set runs 216 Speed hitting 240 speed. Gliscors Sample Set runs 60 Speed hitting 241 Speed, idk where the 64 Speed Gliscor is coming from.
But yeah lets not use outdated things as an argument for the current situation.
Scarf Urshifu-R showing up 23% of the time doesn't really change the core point: Punching Glove is the primary set, and it’s the one that actually pressures and breaks Flying's defensive core.
In serious play, Fighting teams lean heavily on Punching Glove because it has the power and consistency needed to deal with the current meta in which scarf struggles/is just not as good/or simply outclassed
While Zapdos is technically viable, it’s far from a core part of Flying teams. It competes with other Flying-types that are either better defensively (like Corviknight and Articuno) or offer more consistent offensive value. That’s why you rarely see Zapdos on Flying’s most optimized builds—it just doesn’t fit the core as well as the alternatives.
And i wouldn't take Viabilty Ranking as an argument since something like Cuno is also only B-Rank or Gyarados being B-Rank too.
And yes - Zapos has different usage in Tournament Play which again, is due to matchup scouting, Prep, and for specific Matchups
Looking at usage and ignoring dragons, Water/Flying/Steel have a lot of usage and Zapdos does very well into them.
But that doesn’t translate well to ladder, where you can’t rely on knowing your matchup. From my experience laddering these past few months, Zapdos is almost non-existent in Flying matchups.
Lastly, I think it's important to clarify how usage stats are often misread. The 12% usage for Zapdos at 1630+ is weighted usage, meaning teams at higher ratings are given more value. In contrast, unweighted usage shows Zapdos at 17%, which includes all teams regardless of rating. That drop from 17% to 12% clearly suggests Zapdos sees less usage the higher up you go - indicating it's not as good on optimized Flying teams.
For comparison, take Articuno: its unweighted usage is 23%, but weighted it jumps to 47%. That tells us Articuno is much more common on higherrated teams, since its a core piece in good Flying Teams.
To conclude, I want to emphasize that everything I've written here reflects my personal experience and perspective on the meta. I’m not claiming to have the definitive answer or saying that my view is the only valid one I can see why people are frustrated with it or why they think its banworthy. I'm kinda trying to show where I’m coming from and why I feel Gliscor, while strong, isn’t banworthy.
I think I have to agree on this point.
Everytime I have faced flying (I've been using normal lately) I almost always get clapped because of how the team fits and synergizes with each other, not because gliscor specifically is dominant. Gliscor is usually one of the first pokemon that usually go when I face flying too; it's probably to easiest to manage out of all the other flying pokemon.
Chiming in once again as I see the discussion is still predominantly surrounding
The concept of flying pre and post gouging fire ban is to surround the team with bulk and nothing but the sort while still having optimal damage output with like Choice Scarf Landorus + base damage Tornadus Therian & either running like Swords Dance Gliscor or Toxic Protect. You have to evaluate the team on its own. Which typically is more so seen nowadays like this:
or 
This is just but your basic necessities when it comes to using Flying. Now there are and will always be different scenarios or outcomes. Specifically swapping 2 or 3 of these mons to fit a better advantage versus things like Dragon or Steel, arguably seeing Gliscor + Enamorus. Yes the teammates surrounding it make pivoting and trying to better break a comp of said Pokemon a bit more difficult. And I can not ever just not stress this enough people YOU HAVE TO RUN COVERAGE. Nothing besides a dedicated Choice Specs or Choice Band specific mon can ever KO Gliscor because IT IS DESIGNED TO STAY ALIVE. That is the goal for every team, build a team surrounding your lack of defense weaknesses, play long term, recover hp for longevity, and try to win. We can go left and right posting various sorts of specific calcs showing as to why Gliscor is annoying, and yes it truly is one annoying mon at the end of the day, but you could say the same thing to defensive Gholdengo sets or even Poison or Dragon or relatively anything that can somewhat defensively take a hit and do the most asinine thing back to you.
It's all about coverage, and playing around what you see is the safest option.
Teams that are more bulky for Flying gets decimated by Electric & Ice (BoltBeam) coverage. Each and every type across the board does in fact have some means of breaking the likes of Gliscor.
Thank you for letting me rant and yap
The concept of flying pre and post gouging fire ban is to surround the team with bulk and nothing but the sort while still having optimal damage output with like Choice Scarf Landorus + base damage Tornadus Therian & either running like Swords Dance Gliscor or Toxic Protect. You have to evaluate the team on its own. Which typically is more so seen nowadays like this:
or This is just but your basic necessities when it comes to using Flying. Now there are and will always be different scenarios or outcomes. Specifically swapping 2 or 3 of these mons to fit a better advantage versus things like Dragon or Steel, arguably seeing Gliscor + Enamorus. Yes the teammates surrounding it make pivoting and trying to better break a comp of said Pokemon a bit more difficult. And I can not ever just not stress this enough people YOU HAVE TO RUN COVERAGE. Nothing besides a dedicated Choice Specs or Choice Band specific mon can ever KO Gliscor because IT IS DESIGNED TO STAY ALIVE. That is the goal for every team, build a team surrounding your lack of defense weaknesses, play long term, recover hp for longevity, and try to win. We can go left and right posting various sorts of specific calcs showing as to why Gliscor is annoying, and yes it truly is one annoying mon at the end of the day, but you could say the same thing to defensive Gholdengo sets or even Poison or Dragon or relatively anything that can somewhat defensively take a hit and do the most asinine thing back to you.
It's all about coverage, and playing around what you see is the safest option.
Teams that are more bulky for Flying gets decimated by Electric & Ice (BoltBeam) coverage. Each and every type across the board does in fact have some means of breaking the likes of Gliscor.
Thank you for letting me rant and yap
I'm pretty new to the tier but i think this statement is completely false, from my experience, Tornadus-T AV is completely capable of coming on special Boltbeam breakers like Latios and threaten them with Knock Off to lose their item that makes them breakers in the first place. And no, i don't think every type can break the defensive core of flying(you said Gliscor specifically, but if you can break Gliscor but not the rest of the team, then you still won't break Gliscor), this game, which happened a couple of hours ago, is a perfect example of Flying being too hard to break, if not impossible to break for some types, here avarice had; Mamoswine + Gravity Landorus + Specs Garchomp and was still not able to deal with flying.
If you take a look at BoltBeam coverage, it's actually pretty limited; Dragon (Goodras, Lati@s), Electric (Lanturn), Fairy (Clefable, Scream Tail), Ghost (Froslass), Ice (Froslass), Normal (Porygon-Z, Terapagos), Psychic (Cresselia, Deoxys-Speed, Lati@s, Mew, Scream Tail), Water (Lanturn). 8 types out of 18 with a special BoltBeam coverage, and most of them are threatened by Tornadus-T's Knock Off or can't deal with Articuno Haze.
On the physical side you have a bit more variety but it's not that much either and most pokemons who have access to a physical BoltBeam coverage would prefer having something else anyway (Okidogi, Dragonite, Muk-A...).
Again, i'm not as familiar with the tier as most people here, but to me, the statements "every type can deal with Gliscor" and "Bulky Flying gets decimated by BoltBeam coverage" is underestimating how hard it is to break a bulky Flying team.
Imo Gliscor is the most banworthy Pokemon of the current metagame due to how hard it makes Flying to break, it's fast (for a defensive pokemon), absorbs status, absorbs Knock Off, provides Electric-immunity, has a very good bulk, has variations (SD / Toxic Rocks / SubTox....), but more importantly, it's a safe scout for Choiced Pokemons; the reason why Choiced Pokemons are not that good to break Flying is because Gliscor can scout which move they're gonna do so easily; Choiced Pokemons can't come on Gliscor because it will scout which move they're gonna do so Flying teams can switch into the right pokemon, or Gliscor itself can be used as a scout by coming on Choiced Pokemons to see which move they're using since it's so bulky and has so few weaknesses anyway, so breaking Flying teams with Choiced Pokemons is not impossible, but realistically you'd have to play so much better than your opponent in the game to have a chance of winning. I'm not gonna elaborate more on Gliscor because it seems that a lot of posts have been made and i didn't read them so maybe this paragraph is pointless but originally i just wanted to reply to Elvira because i disagree with what they said.
Upon reviewing this game immediately the turn of Knock Off placing a burn on Mamoswine is what ultimately whittled A lot of progress in terms of breaking through this team as Choice Band Mamoswine with the addition of Gravity (Clicked to the final turn to scout the set on Landorus) is a very great means of breaking through the example of a bulkier Flying team with Icicle Crash + Flinch or flat out Earthquake under Gravity.
Yes, you are correct. It is meant to be a scout versus Choice-locked Pokemon. The metagame however has shifted even to the slightest seeing things like Expert Belt Latios to sort of provide a surprise factor in continuation of breaking through these style of teams. Tornadus, yes, is another example of creating a team environment of pivot + removal of items. That is just how Flying has predominantly been played even Pre-Gouging Fire ban.
No your paragraph isn't pointless, that is the lovely topic of debate which I applaud you for counter arguing the topic of discussion. I love me a good debate every now and then. Makes being in the community enjoyable.
I just think, in my opinion, on preview it looks a bit more difficult to manage and break but in practice it's simple to find the right moment to threaten it out. Protect or not you can have your moments to utilize it against Gliscor.
I haven't made many posts about SV because of school but now that I have time I want to talk about a broad selection of pokemon that I think are definitely not banworthy but I will say, a bit unhealthy. The most striking thing of this selection is that it restricts team building and make some matchups very unfair. This mainly stems from the fact that gen 9's power creep is absolutely insane and have relegated a lot of mons to the wayside. After I discuss each pokemon, I'll try my best and propose a solution. I will split the pokemon into 2 categories, first are pokemon that are the textbook definition of what feels off with the meta. The second are pokemon that are nowhere near as bad as the first but are worth somewhat talking about.
Category 1: The problem childs
: I don't think we need to beat a dead horse here so I will try to be brief with my thoughts on gliscor. To emphasize here, I don't think it's banworthy but out of all the pokemon right now, it's definitely the most banworthy one. The problem is that gliscor has a few sets that just completely ruins a lot of teams. The fact that it get double leftovers, status immunity, and knock absorption(after toxic orb activate of course) all in one slot is a bit much. For example, most poison players are at a loss on how to beat it without compromising something on their team. Whether it's ice beam glowking or max defense pech, poison has to go out of its way to compensate for it. It also makes life difficult for other types too. Steel, infamous for lacking in water and ice coverage, usualy have to do a bit extra to be safe against it. This usually take the shape of dengo running nasty plot + hex but I have personally shifted to running ID skarm to 1v1 it. Even types that don't have to go out of their way to beat gliscor often take issue with it. With knock off and the ability to set hazards, it becomes annoying for types like water and ice which should do well against it but are still impacted because they rely on boots a lot. Factoring the fact that toxic + eq cover so much of the meta and I think people's complains do have merit.
: I have seen a lot of people complain about it and it's evident why. The rise of double steel dragon has become a massive issue for so many types. Take dragon for example, having access to arch + hoodra means that most fairy types can't do much. You specifically need things like val or contrary superpower enam to beat it. On steel, the two do wondrous work against all the fire and water type moves as well as an extra layer of against electric moves. The fact that archa makes the fire vs steel MU possible is mind boggling considering the existence of hearthflame makes heatran a non factor. In fact, archa is also why the fairy vs steel MU is so bad. Azu can't break through steel if archa is out of +6 aqua jet range and can ohko with tbolt(bit of a range but should be fairly manageable for steel). Although hoodra is really strong, the problem is evidently arch. The main problem stems with stamina. If you click a multi hit move into arch, even with something you want to hit dragons with like triple axel or dragon darts, because of stamina, arch will tank it. This ability also means you can't freely click moves like flip turn or uturn as it will give it a defense boost. This defense boost means whenever you are facing it, it's usually at +1 defense because it switch in on a resisted hit and when you strike back it's a lot bulkier than anticipated. It also does way too much, twave for speed control, rocks(for hazards), dragon tail to phaze without being blocked by taunt, body press to take advantage of your defense boosts. This is a lot, however, it has one killer weakness, no reliable recovery which is what keeps it from being absurd.
: This one is straight forward. Blocking every status move is one of the most busted abilities ever. It also doesn't help that this thing has an absurd movepool giving it access to too many tools. Good as gold blocks too many useful moves. It blocks defog which is awful considering steel loves to spam hazards and ghost benefits a lot from hazards for their offense. It blocks leech seed, spore, sleep powder, and stun spore meaning it walls like 90% of grass types. Breloom is forced to run bulldoze for it and amoongus is forced to run stomping tantrum/foul play. It also blocks things like roar, whirlwind, taunt and encore which means you can't anything about it setting up. This doesn't even account for things like toxic, will-o-wisp, parting shot, strength sap and twave, all of which are crucial moves for some pokemon but just thuds into a dengo. Now comes the movepool. This thing has coverage for days: tbolt, f-blast, power gem, psychic/shock, gleam, etc. Its stab shadow is really spamable and its other stab make it rain is just a slightly weaker overheat than only lowers ONE stage of spa. It also gets screens, np which you can't much about it outside of clicking haze, twave for speed control, and trick to cripple walls for choice sets. The main problem is that it has access to recover. WHY??? Why on earth would you give this thing reliable recovery? The only thing keeping dengo in check is its speed stat which a lot of people are bypassing by running bulkier dengos because of again, RECOVER.
: The main problem is just the sheer damage this thing can output, especially under sun. Mold breaker means steel is effectively a non factor if you can chip arch(again broken checks broken). It also means you can break through the unaware mons if you have the proper coverage. Under sun, very little actually switches into you and usually by the time this is dead, enough of a hole is formed for the rest of the team to finish the job. The only weakness you actually have is that you are very weak to rocks and can't run boots to offset it.
: Lando-I is similar to hearthflame in that the main problem is just the sheer damage. Gravity means that any type that is weak to ground effectively have no way to deal with you outside of outspeeding. On ground, a common combo is to click gravity, then switch to eject button hippo, bringing out band exca. With band exca under sand(which barely anything outspeeds) it's very likely you string up lose 2 or more pokemon. I've seen poison be more and more inclined to run amoongus to deal with it until you realize that earth power + psychic makes poison almost free. The only thing keeping this in check is the speed stat. 101 is good but not unreasonable to outpseed.
: I personally think this should be in category 2 but I've seen enough people complain about this that I will put it in category 1 for now. The main issue is that mane is very hard to outspeed, it does too much damage, and has too many coverage options. The stabs themselves is already really strong with moonblast and shadow ball being 2 of the most spammable moves. Then it has things like mystical fire for steels, power gem for fire, psychic for poison, tbolt for water and flying, even energy ball for ground and water if you need. The issue is that it has this power on top of 135 speed means the only way to outspeed is with a scarf. However, this is kept well in check as it never runs boots meaning hazards chip you a lot and you are very frail meaning priority moves are a huge problem.
Category 2: A bit concerning but not a problem
: This thing is just too bulky. It can set up hazards for days and it can do a surprising amount of damage, especially with ruination and eq off of that 110 base attack. You can hit it with a super effective move and it will do like 30%.
: Again, this just does too much damage, especially with the rise of the loaded dice set. The main reason it's not as controversial as in SS is that it did lose roost, meaning it's forced to rely on boots if you are running a special set and you are weak to rocks if running loaded dice.
: This is hearthflame but to a much lesser extent as the dual stab is much easier to take on. However, it still does way too much damage and the 110 speed is very fast for a wall breaker. Again hazards does very well vs these 2(esp rock pon) hence why it's reasonable to deal with them.
: This just has too many coverage and can reasonably run a mixed set meaning any pokemon that would of checked it now no longer can. Dengo? not if knock/shadow ball. Steel birds? not if tbolt. Pex/other poisons? not if psychic. CC take care of Amuk. The stab complements each other well and the 116 speed means it's quite difficult to outpseed.
: Why did this get SD. Yes the scarf set can do very well against flying but SD is still really strong. This on top of the fact that you can't protect against it and surging strikes always crits means a lot of types are forced into outpseeding it to beat it.
: Very difficult to stop it from snowballing out of control without proper preparing, it's even got morning sun to heal.
: Very reasonable to deal with but late game, it's very hard stop from it cleaning up, Especially with the stupidity that is the dire claw roulette
: It's just flutter mane mini. Does too much damage for its speed. It can even run will o wisp and sub to create a very hard to stop setup sweeper. On top of getting stronger with each KO allowing for snowballing potential. The addition of draining kiss also doesn't help.
: It's just obscenely strong. Playing against this is mainly about keeping it not at full health without it ever getting weak armor and SD simultaneously up which is hard to do when it's signature stab move heals 50% of damage dealt, allowing it to keep its sash.
Overall, you can see that power creep as really gone insane. Pokemon that were previously considered broken like lando-I in gen 8 are now reasonable for the meta to deal with. I would say, even if many may disagree, most of these problem nullify an MU, even if the MU is already bad. Previously, base 100 speed was considered fast, now, the fast pokemon are like base 135 and even the wall breakers reach 110.
Here is my idea. I have talked to a lot of older players(ergo that played more older gens) and asking them about their gripes with the meta. One of the most common complaints is that with the absurd power creep, games feel very swingy where either the MU is BS or one small mistake/moment of bad luck completely ruins the game. Although this idea is unfounded, it still deters many players. ***My proposal is to create an OM that for now we can call "Undercrept Monotype" which is effectively the same as monotype except the absurd broken mons in Category 1 are banned and we can slowly remove those in Category 2 if they become problematic. I understand Monotype LU exists but the main issue with that tier is a lot of type completely loses their defensive core, while others like water, which have so many mons, can simply replace each role with a slightly weaker mon. The point of this OM is to offer an alternative to the monotype we have right now and would give people that constantly complain a point of comparison. The main reason I'm suggesting this over just suspecting the pokemon in Category 1 is because I don't think it's realistic that any of the pokemon mentioned need a ban or even a suspect. They are all manageable in one way or another. Gliscor and maybe arch and ghold are the only ones that realistically we can start a suspect over and I do not believe the community can come to a consensus.
Category 1: The problem childs
: I don't think we need to beat a dead horse here so I will try to be brief with my thoughts on gliscor. To emphasize here, I don't think it's banworthy but out of all the pokemon right now, it's definitely the most banworthy one. The problem is that gliscor has a few sets that just completely ruins a lot of teams. The fact that it get double leftovers, status immunity, and knock absorption(after toxic orb activate of course) all in one slot is a bit much. For example, most poison players are at a loss on how to beat it without compromising something on their team. Whether it's ice beam glowking or max defense pech, poison has to go out of its way to compensate for it. It also makes life difficult for other types too. Steel, infamous for lacking in water and ice coverage, usualy have to do a bit extra to be safe against it. This usually take the shape of dengo running nasty plot + hex but I have personally shifted to running ID skarm to 1v1 it. Even types that don't have to go out of their way to beat gliscor often take issue with it. With knock off and the ability to set hazards, it becomes annoying for types like water and ice which should do well against it but are still impacted because they rely on boots a lot. Factoring the fact that toxic + eq cover so much of the meta and I think people's complains do have merit.: I have seen a lot of people complain about it and it's evident why. The rise of double steel dragon has become a massive issue for so many types. Take dragon for example, having access to arch + hoodra means that most fairy types can't do much. You specifically need things like val or contrary superpower enam to beat it. On steel, the two do wondrous work against all the fire and water type moves as well as an extra layer of against electric moves. The fact that archa makes the fire vs steel MU possible is mind boggling considering the existence of hearthflame makes heatran a non factor. In fact, archa is also why the fairy vs steel MU is so bad. Azu can't break through steel if archa is out of +6 aqua jet range and can ohko with tbolt(bit of a range but should be fairly manageable for steel). Although hoodra is really strong, the problem is evidently arch. The main problem stems with stamina. If you click a multi hit move into arch, even with something you want to hit dragons with like triple axel or dragon darts, because of stamina, arch will tank it. This ability also means you can't freely click moves like flip turn or uturn as it will give it a defense boost. This defense boost means whenever you are facing it, it's usually at +1 defense because it switch in on a resisted hit and when you strike back it's a lot bulkier than anticipated. It also does way too much, twave for speed control, rocks(for hazards), dragon tail to phaze without being blocked by taunt, body press to take advantage of your defense boosts. This is a lot, however, it has one killer weakness, no reliable recovery which is what keeps it from being absurd.: This one is straight forward. Blocking every status move is one of the most busted abilities ever. It also doesn't help that this thing has an absurd movepool giving it access to too many tools. Good as gold blocks too many useful moves. It blocks defog which is awful considering steel loves to spam hazards and ghost benefits a lot from hazards for their offense. It blocks leech seed, spore, sleep powder, and stun spore meaning it walls like 90% of grass types. Breloom is forced to run bulldoze for it and amoongus is forced to run stomping tantrum/foul play. It also blocks things like roar, whirlwind, taunt and encore which means you can't anything about it setting up. This doesn't even account for things like toxic, will-o-wisp, parting shot, strength sap and twave, all of which are crucial moves for some pokemon but just thuds into a dengo. Now comes the movepool. This thing has coverage for days: tbolt, f-blast, power gem, psychic/shock, gleam, etc. Its stab shadow is really spamable and its other stab make it rain is just a slightly weaker overheat than only lowers ONE stage of spa. It also gets screens, np which you can't much about it outside of clicking haze, twave for speed control, and trick to cripple walls for choice sets. The main problem is that it has access to recover. WHY??? Why on earth would you give this thing reliable recovery? The only thing keeping dengo in check is its speed stat which a lot of people are bypassing by running bulkier dengos because of again, RECOVER.: The main problem is just the sheer damage this thing can output, especially under sun. Mold breaker means steel is effectively a non factor if you can chip arch(again broken checks broken). It also means you can break through the unaware mons if you have the proper coverage. Under sun, very little actually switches into you and usually by the time this is dead, enough of a hole is formed for the rest of the team to finish the job. The only weakness you actually have is that you are very weak to rocks and can't run boots to offset it.: Lando-I is similar to hearthflame in that the main problem is just the sheer damage. Gravity means that any type that is weak to ground effectively have no way to deal with you outside of outspeeding. On ground, a common combo is to click gravity, then switch to eject button hippo, bringing out band exca. With band exca under sand(which barely anything outspeeds) it's very likely you string up lose 2 or more pokemon. I've seen poison be more and more inclined to run amoongus to deal with it until you realize that earth power + psychic makes poison almost free. The only thing keeping this in check is the speed stat. 101 is good but not unreasonable to outpseed.: I personally think this should be in category 2 but I've seen enough people complain about this that I will put it in category 1 for now. The main issue is that mane is very hard to outspeed, it does too much damage, and has too many coverage options. The stabs themselves is already really strong with moonblast and shadow ball being 2 of the most spammable moves. Then it has things like mystical fire for steels, power gem for fire, psychic for poison, tbolt for water and flying, even energy ball for ground and water if you need. The issue is that it has this power on top of 135 speed means the only way to outspeed is with a scarf. However, this is kept well in check as it never runs boots meaning hazards chip you a lot and you are very frail meaning priority moves are a huge problem.Category 2: A bit concerning but not a problem
: This thing is just too bulky. It can set up hazards for days and it can do a surprising amount of damage, especially with ruination and eq off of that 110 base attack. You can hit it with a super effective move and it will do like 30%.: Again, this just does too much damage, especially with the rise of the loaded dice set. The main reason it's not as controversial as in SS is that it did lose roost, meaning it's forced to rely on boots if you are running a special set and you are weak to rocks if running loaded dice.: This is hearthflame but to a much lesser extent as the dual stab is much easier to take on. However, it still does way too much damage and the 110 speed is very fast for a wall breaker. Again hazards does very well vs these 2(esp rock pon) hence why it's reasonable to deal with them.: This just has too many coverage and can reasonably run a mixed set meaning any pokemon that would of checked it now no longer can. Dengo? not if knock/shadow ball. Steel birds? not if tbolt. Pex/other poisons? not if psychic. CC take care of Amuk. The stab complements each other well and the 116 speed means it's quite difficult to outpseed.: Why did this get SD. Yes the scarf set can do very well against flying but SD is still really strong. This on top of the fact that you can't protect against it and surging strikes always crits means a lot of types are forced into outpseeding it to beat it.: Very difficult to stop it from snowballing out of control without proper preparing, it's even got morning sun to heal.: Very reasonable to deal with but late game, it's very hard stop from it cleaning up, Especially with the stupidity that is the dire claw roulette: It's just flutter mane mini. Does too much damage for its speed. It can even run will o wisp and sub to create a very hard to stop setup sweeper. On top of getting stronger with each KO allowing for snowballing potential. The addition of draining kiss also doesn't help.: It's just obscenely strong. Playing against this is mainly about keeping it not at full health without it ever getting weak armor and SD simultaneously up which is hard to do when it's signature stab move heals 50% of damage dealt, allowing it to keep its sash.Overall, you can see that power creep as really gone insane. Pokemon that were previously considered broken like lando-I in gen 8 are now reasonable for the meta to deal with. I would say, even if many may disagree, most of these problem nullify an MU, even if the MU is already bad. Previously, base 100 speed was considered fast, now, the fast pokemon are like base 135 and even the wall breakers reach 110.
Here is my idea. I have talked to a lot of older players(ergo that played more older gens) and asking them about their gripes with the meta. One of the most common complaints is that with the absurd power creep, games feel very swingy where either the MU is BS or one small mistake/moment of bad luck completely ruins the game. Although this idea is unfounded, it still deters many players. ***My proposal is to create an OM that for now we can call "Undercrept Monotype" which is effectively the same as monotype except the absurd broken mons in Category 1 are banned and we can slowly remove those in Category 2 if they become problematic. I understand Monotype LU exists but the main issue with that tier is a lot of type completely loses their defensive core, while others like water, which have so many mons, can simply replace each role with a slightly weaker mon. The point of this OM is to offer an alternative to the monotype we have right now and would give people that constantly complain a point of comparison. The main reason I'm suggesting this over just suspecting the pokemon in Category 1 is because I don't think it's realistic that any of the pokemon mentioned need a ban or even a suspect. They are all manageable in one way or another. Gliscor and maybe arch and ghold are the only ones that realistically we can start a suspect over and I do not believe the community can come to a consensus.
Good afternoon! Me and boomp overview Monotype OMs along with the room. This, on paper, sounds like a good idea. The thing is we already have something similar in Monotype UU where there are lesser mons based on usage. If you would like to check it out, there is a thread in the subforum for Monotype OM. The majority of the mon's listed to my knowledge in that metagame are not viable under Monotype UU unless they've recently dropped due to usage which that council monitors per month to month basis.
I literally mention why monotype UU doesn't work. I called it LU because that's what I thought it was called.
noI haven't made many posts about SV because of school but now that I have time I want to talk about a broad selection of pokemon that I think are definitely not banworthy but I will say, a bit unhealthy. The most striking thing of this selection is that it restricts team building and make some matchups very unfair. This mainly stems from the fact that gen 9's power creep is absolutely insane and have relegated a lot of mons to the wayside. After I discuss each pokemon, I'll try my best and propose a solution. I will split the pokemon into 2 categories, first are pokemon that are the textbook definition of what feels off with the meta. The second are pokemon that are nowhere near as bad as the first but are worth somewhat talking about.
Category 1: The problem childs
Category 2: A bit concerning but not a problem
Overall, you can see that power creep as really gone insane. Pokemon that were previously considered broken like lando-I in gen 8 are now reasonable for the meta to deal with. I would say, even if many may disagree, most of these problem nullify an MU, even if the MU is already bad. Previously, base 100 speed was considered fast, now, the fast pokemon are like base 135 and even the wall breakers reach 110.
Here is my idea. I have talked to a lot of older players(ergo that played more older gens) and asking them about their gripes with the meta. One of the most common complaints is that with the absurd power creep, games feel very swingy where either the MU is BS or one small mistake/moment of bad luck completely ruins the game. Although this idea is unfounded, it still deters many players. ***My proposal is to create an OM that for now we can call "Undercrept Monotype" which is effectively the same as monotype except the absurd broken mons in Category 1 are banned and we can slowly remove those in Category 2 if they become problematic. I understand Monotype LU exists but the main issue with that tier is a lot of type completely loses their defensive core, while others like water, which have so many mons, can simply replace each role with a slightly weaker mon. The point of this OM is to offer an alternative to the monotype we have right now and would give people that constantly complain a point of comparison. The main reason I'm suggesting this over just suspecting the pokemon in Category 1 is because I don't think it's realistic that any of the pokemon mentioned need a ban or even a suspect. They are all manageable in one way or another. Gliscor and maybe arch and ghold are the only ones that realistically we can start a suspect over and I do not believe the community can come to a consensus.
I see, unfortunately we have set a good amount of past OM's aside and are only focusing on selective one's we deem to still hold a decent enthisuasm with. But it's never not possible that down the line we come up with different ones!
Welp, boomp gave me a hard no, so I guess this idea is a bust. I just don't believe it's possible to ban anything rn.
New Survey, new response post. For the core part of the survey I'll keep it brief, I voted to get everything there out of the tier (or stay out in Gambit's case) as I don't think they belong in the mono meta personally.
Now onto the actually important stuff, the write in. I put four mons in there, two that anyone that knows me would expect, one that shouldn't be surprising based on what I think about another, and a certainly a wild statement.
I think these Ogerpon formes need to go. Hearthflame should be obvious but Wellspring I think falls into a similar camp of being incredibly hard to actually stand up to. Both have the same "issue" on 110 speed which I think is a load of horse crap. A lot of types lack mons naturally faster than base 110 such as Steel and Ground having to rely on Scarfers, Priority, or Sand Rush Excadrill to make up the difference which allows the Oger formes to just start hammering away and while other types aren't as barren, most still only have 1~2 non scarfers faster than 110. There also isn't just many good defensive switchins to these guys, especially when backed by weather, Oger-H while on paper should have Fire and Dragon as good switch ins, there aren't many good defensive mons of those types in the tier, for defensive Fires is what? Moltres, Torkoal, and Skeledirge? Two mons that are rarely seen and Moltres which is usually overwhelmed against Fire and may fall to the coverage of Rock Tomb while Defensive Dragons fair much worse with Arch and Chomp being neutral to one of Oger-H's STAB type and Bolt being 2HKOed by unboosted Play Rough (or just OHKOed by boosted play rough) Same applies to Oger-W (just the play rough part, its much easier for Archaludon to stomach overall) and while there are more common defensive Grass-types, Sinistcha and Amoonguss are still not fans of taking Ivy Cudgel in Rain with both hoping to all that is holy that after a swords dance, neither cudgel crits.
I'll keep this one much briefer, I think this is too strong. Now yes, this speed tier is now unfortunate but its still good enough to be oppressive in my opinion. This one though might just be entirely pushed by my personal type bias but outside of playing against Scarf variants as Flying, I just find it infuriating with any type.
Ah yes, Poison main complaining about a Poison-type. Wait what? I am very much convinced at this point that Sneasler might be a bit too problematic. This entirely comes down to Dire Claw being a horribly designed move, holy shit I hate it so much. Dire Claw's consistent ability to steal games is such an annoying factor to me as I have had so many games recently where I played better and then it rolls sleep or Para, I get an unlucky turn and don't wake up/move and I just lose, or I just snowball because Dire Claw procs a lucky status on a check early in the game and they can't recover. And that is kind of it. Outside of it, Unburden can be annoying to face but that is mostly due to Dire Claw as otherwise it would be relatively easy to manage for the most part. I also think out of the mons that were apart of the survey + my write ins Sneasler is the least problematic mostly due to it being a necessary evil to keep other mons such as the Oger formes and Valiant in check. But might just be my Poison bias kicking back in.
Now onto the actually important stuff, the write in. I put four mons in there, two that anyone that knows me would expect, one that shouldn't be surprising based on what I think about another, and a certainly a wild statement.
I think these Ogerpon formes need to go. Hearthflame should be obvious but Wellspring I think falls into a similar camp of being incredibly hard to actually stand up to. Both have the same "issue" on 110 speed which I think is a load of horse crap. A lot of types lack mons naturally faster than base 110 such as Steel and Ground having to rely on Scarfers, Priority, or Sand Rush Excadrill to make up the difference which allows the Oger formes to just start hammering away and while other types aren't as barren, most still only have 1~2 non scarfers faster than 110. There also isn't just many good defensive switchins to these guys, especially when backed by weather, Oger-H while on paper should have Fire and Dragon as good switch ins, there aren't many good defensive mons of those types in the tier, for defensive Fires is what? Moltres, Torkoal, and Skeledirge? Two mons that are rarely seen and Moltres which is usually overwhelmed against Fire and may fall to the coverage of Rock Tomb while Defensive Dragons fair much worse with Arch and Chomp being neutral to one of Oger-H's STAB type and Bolt being 2HKOed by unboosted Play Rough (or just OHKOed by boosted play rough) Same applies to Oger-W (just the play rough part, its much easier for Archaludon to stomach overall) and while there are more common defensive Grass-types, Sinistcha and Amoonguss are still not fans of taking Ivy Cudgel in Rain with both hoping to all that is holy that after a swords dance, neither cudgel crits.
I'll keep this one much briefer, I think this is too strong. Now yes, this speed tier is now unfortunate but its still good enough to be oppressive in my opinion. This one though might just be entirely pushed by my personal type bias but outside of playing against Scarf variants as Flying, I just find it infuriating with any type.
Ah yes, Poison main complaining about a Poison-type. Wait what? I am very much convinced at this point that Sneasler might be a bit too problematic. This entirely comes down to Dire Claw being a horribly designed move, holy shit I hate it so much. Dire Claw's consistent ability to steal games is such an annoying factor to me as I have had so many games recently where I played better and then it rolls sleep or Para, I get an unlucky turn and don't wake up/move and I just lose, or I just snowball because Dire Claw procs a lucky status on a check early in the game and they can't recover. And that is kind of it. Outside of it, Unburden can be annoying to face but that is mostly due to Dire Claw as otherwise it would be relatively easy to manage for the most part. I also think out of the mons that were apart of the survey + my write ins Sneasler is the least problematic mostly due to it being a necessary evil to keep other mons such as the Oger formes and Valiant in check. But might just be my Poison bias kicking back in.
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I mostly agree with Peng, most mons in the survey should be gone except Gholdengo which provides a lot of interesting interactions imo (except if an item clause is on discussion). I just think the more neutral one is Flutter Mane but I don't mind seeing it leaving monotype.
I also would like to draw attention on mons that should be looked at. It does not mean we have to ban them but they can be real threat and be oppressive for some types.
I think Bulkyrona set under sun is a nightmare for a lot of types. You do not really need a lot of moves since if you fish burn or click Will-O-Wisp before with
or 
or defensive 
, you can also just replace the last 4th move, generally Will-o-Wisp, by Substitute. Now good luck for Fighting, Dark, Flying, Dragon, most passive teams, or even ground as you can easily even set up against which is crazy.
To be honest, as a water lover since gen1, yes I am old, this mon is a nightmare. You need a ground special wall immunity for a lot of types or you'll be dead. One little mistake like sending your
on Draco Meteor and you're dead since long neck will be able to click thunderclap easily afterward. I have even started to consider to handle it with Mirror Coat on Swampert or playing AV meaning no stealth rocks and dying on hazards. Against flying, if you play a fast one with Shuca Berry and managed to set up 1 Calm Mind on the switch and you kill it. Your oppo will mostly bring which will take 60-70% from modest DM at -1 while dealing between minimum 32% (scarf) and maximum 51% (life orb).
PS : Ban Archaludon. I hate to think about it in builder and face it ingames.
I also would like to draw attention on mons that should be looked at. It does not mean we have to ban them but they can be real threat and be oppressive for some types.
I think Bulkyrona set under sun is a nightmare for a lot of types. You do not really need a lot of moves since if you fish burn or click Will-O-Wisp before with
or or defensive , you can also just replace the last 4th move, generally Will-o-Wisp, by Substitute. Now good luck for Fighting, Dark, Flying, Dragon, most passive teams, or even ground as you can easily even set up against which is crazy.To be honest, as a water lover since gen1, yes I am old, this mon is a nightmare. You need a ground special wall immunity for a lot of types or you'll be dead. One little mistake like sending your
on Draco Meteor and you're dead since long neck will be able to click thunderclap easily afterward. I have even started to consider to handle it with Mirror Coat on Swampert or playing AV meaning no stealth rocks and dying on hazards. Against flying, if you play a fast one with Shuca Berry and managed to set up 1 Calm Mind on the switch and you kill it. Your oppo will mostly bring which will take 60-70% from modest DM at -1 while dealing between minimum 32% (scarf) and maximum 51% (life orb).PS : Ban Archaludon. I hate to think about it in builder and face it ingames.
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just wanted to give my quick thoughts on what I believe needs to go. without further ado,
the first Pokemon I want to see banned is Ogerpon-H. I think the main issue with Ogerpon-H is that theres's a very limited pool of checks that can actually contain it without it getting out of hand. for example, you have Archaludon that is able to check it because of Stamina, but even +2 under sun is a roll in your favour: +2 252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Ogerpon-Hearthflame Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Archaludon in Sun: 345-406 (89.8 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO. a roll is a roll but you get the point. the only other reliable checks for Ogerpon-H have to resist both stabs to be able to wall it (dragon types mainly). This offensive monster is then backed up by mold breaker which narrows the pool of checks and tools to limit it down removing the likes of Heatran, Intimidating, Sinistcha's Heatproof etc. while Ogerpon-H is only 350 speed, which on its own is a respectable speed, and is revenged by most scarfers that are slower than it without a scarf such as, 
, 
, 
to name a few, all these options are simply bypassed by Ogerpon-H's access to Trailblaze. I think Ogerpon-H should be at the top of the list to be banned as its simply broken with many things aligning to make it unstoppable in most matchups.
The second Pokemon I'd like to see banned is Archaludon. I feel like this Pokemon closes a lot of doors in teambuilding since you constantly need to take into account the +1 defense boost from Stamina. if you cannot 2HKO it, Archaludon will spiral out of control repeatedly getting boosts to power up its already strong Body Press. another problem with not being able to easily 2HKO is the fact that it can spread paralysis in addition to spamming boosted Body Press thanks to the stat boosts you gave it..Archaludon is a prominent wall to most physical attackers in the meta with its ability Stamina pairing nicely with its ability to wall, which goes hand in hand with it access to the move Body Press. Archaludon mainly struggles with neutral special attacks as its 2HKOD by most Moonblasts and Draco Meteors from opposing Fairies and Dragons, this is why Goodra-hisui as a partner makes Archaludon a nightmare to deal with since it is able to easily stomach these attacks. Its sheer bulk lets it tank most super effective moves such as:
252 Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Archaludon: 242-288 (63 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Archaludon: 242-288 (63 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Archaludon: 246-290 (64 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Archaludon: 315-374 (82 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
as shown by these calcs, the strongest attackers can't even OHKO it while Archaludon gets off a free attack that will likely OHKO in return due to their reduced defenses. This is clearly a problem. in neutral matchups such as Dragon- vs Flying-, Dragon- vs Dark-, Dragon- vs Poison- or Dragon- vs Ground-; Archaludon, when paired up with Goodra-Hisui, is so difficult to break that before it dies it often takes one or two or sometimes even 3 Pokemon with it. additionally, Archaludon can freely set up Stealth Rock in most matchups without the fear of being punished. It can also dish out paralysis with Thunder Wave which neutralises most threats to Dragon- and allows heavy hitters such as Dragapult, Roaring Moon and Latios in the back to come out and stampede the opponent's team easily.
I haven't touched on Archaludon on Steel- because I don't use steel or play against it enough to be qualified to talk on that matter but I would imagine the case is the same.
I hope the council considers my opinion on this matter and takes action against these two massive threats. thank you for your time and I hope you enjoyed reading this.
the first Pokemon I want to see banned is Ogerpon-H. I think the main issue with Ogerpon-H is that theres's a very limited pool of checks that can actually contain it without it getting out of hand. for example, you have Archaludon that is able to check it because of Stamina, but even +2 under sun is a roll in your favour: +2 252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Ogerpon-Hearthflame Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Archaludon in Sun: 345-406 (89.8 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO. a roll is a roll but you get the point. the only other reliable checks for Ogerpon-H have to resist both stabs to be able to wall it (dragon types mainly). This offensive monster is then backed up by mold breaker which narrows the pool of checks and tools to limit it down removing the likes of Heatran, Intimidating, Sinistcha's Heatproof etc. while Ogerpon-H is only 350 speed, which on its own is a respectable speed, and is revenged by most scarfers that are slower than it without a scarf such as
, , , to name a few, all these options are simply bypassed by Ogerpon-H's access to Trailblaze. I think Ogerpon-H should be at the top of the list to be banned as its simply broken with many things aligning to make it unstoppable in most matchups.The second Pokemon I'd like to see banned is Archaludon. I feel like this Pokemon closes a lot of doors in teambuilding since you constantly need to take into account the +1 defense boost from Stamina. if you cannot 2HKO it, Archaludon will spiral out of control repeatedly getting boosts to power up its already strong Body Press. another problem with not being able to easily 2HKO is the fact that it can spread paralysis in addition to spamming boosted Body Press thanks to the stat boosts you gave it..Archaludon is a prominent wall to most physical attackers in the meta with its ability Stamina pairing nicely with its ability to wall, which goes hand in hand with it access to the move Body Press. Archaludon mainly struggles with neutral special attacks as its 2HKOD by most Moonblasts and Draco Meteors from opposing Fairies and Dragons, this is why Goodra-hisui as a partner makes Archaludon a nightmare to deal with since it is able to easily stomach these attacks. Its sheer bulk lets it tank most super effective moves such as:
252 Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Archaludon: 242-288 (63 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Archaludon: 242-288 (63 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Archaludon: 246-290 (64 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Archaludon: 315-374 (82 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
as shown by these calcs, the strongest attackers can't even OHKO it while Archaludon gets off a free attack that will likely OHKO in return due to their reduced defenses. This is clearly a problem. in neutral matchups such as Dragon- vs Flying-, Dragon- vs Dark-, Dragon- vs Poison- or Dragon- vs Ground-; Archaludon, when paired up with Goodra-Hisui, is so difficult to break that before it dies it often takes one or two or sometimes even 3 Pokemon with it. additionally, Archaludon can freely set up Stealth Rock in most matchups without the fear of being punished. It can also dish out paralysis with Thunder Wave which neutralises most threats to Dragon- and allows heavy hitters such as Dragapult, Roaring Moon and Latios in the back to come out and stampede the opponent's team easily.
I haven't touched on Archaludon on Steel- because I don't use steel or play against it enough to be qualified to talk on that matter but I would imagine the case is the same.
I hope the council considers my opinion on this matter and takes action against these two massive threats. thank you for your time and I hope you enjoyed reading this.
Already alluded to this in my MPL posts and blah blah but nothing should be banned right now. Archaludon+Flutter Mane are fat maybes but right now Archaludon is probably the only thing keeping dark (Meowscarada) in check and to a same degree Flutter Mane helps keep Dragon/Dark in check. Here are my personal thoughts tho (hoping i dont miss anything):
My biggest issue when these kinds of discussions pop up is that a lot of people lean into the whole "it 2hkos by defensive check so its broken". Defensive counter-play shouldn't = your only counter-play. in a vacuum the logic of your defensive mon being killed easily makes sense as to why something can be broken, but mostly every single type has / or should have ways to revenge or chip down offensive mons. If your plan in every game is to only play reactively > proactively vs a threat then more often than not its going to win.
I used to be a huge proponent of banning him but as I mentioned a second ago he's like the only reason Meowscarada is being held back. Without Archaludon, Meowscarada is a free load into basically any type with its coverage. Archaludon is only super giga annoying vs types that don't have reliable access to Fight/Ground coverage or Knock-Off for lefties. The types that don't have access to that coverage or don't use it a lot (Fire, Ghost) can usually just offensively overwhelm it. It also has to fight to want to run things like tect/twave or 3a. It's usually picking and choosing what it wants to cover in builder (does it drop Draco or Flash?) so it's generally something you can fight against without much trouble. Scarf sets are definitely not inching towards uncompetitive at all so I won't mention anything abt that.
I think Flutter Mane might have the only real case for being a suspect target right now. It has one of the best offensive typings imo and can usually take a special hit and kill mostly whatever it wants with its coverage pool. I still think most types have okay counterplay to it (Hoodra, Gliscor/Articuno, Sand/Clodsire/Treads, etc. etc). Its still not super hard for it to run away with games but I don't really see it as an immediate ban target.
I never thought this guy was broken. I think he struggles to break past a lot of types besides like Fairy. Its annoying at best with Twave + Hex sets and needs to luck through things to win. Offensive NP sets are easily revenged bc its slow and isn't running bulk so it shouldn't pose much of an issue.
Runs so many different sets that it's always losing to oppurtunity cost. Some people use rocks, some people use SD thats walled by various things like Ghold or random balloon stuff. I don't think Gliscor should outright be winning games because it's really not that unkillable and depending on what its giving up in builder you should be able to take advantage of it. I definitely think its annoying but I don't think myself or my teammates made a single team all throughout MPL and I thought to myself "we don't break Gliscor".
We don't really have any breakers atm that are coming in and clicking Fire move x6 and winning the game like Gouging Fire was. Hearthflame I don't think is banworthy as is and I don't think Heat Rock makes it any more "OP" than it is rn. In fact, the Fire team that I made doesn't even use Heat Rock. It's really not that good.
During the Gambit suspect I was super flip-floppy. I wanted to ban it bc I found it uncompetitive, then Trichotomy kinda proved me wrong, and I realized it was decent glue. Now I'm again of the stance that IDK what freeing it does for the meta really. My issue with this one and the other potential unban mons is I asked in cord why people want this and other things unbanned and I got met with a resounding "i have reasons i want it unbanned, but this tier is shit so idgaf and wont tell you". soooo.........LOL. If the unban parade crowd doesn't even wanna elaborate on the unbans I think we should just not touch that pool of Pokemon right now.
I think if you are outright losing to Lando-I it's a bit of a builder issue. I tried writing up a more concise / objective opinion about this but I genuinely can't think of a way that this mon should be straight up just winning games without problems.
Waterpon is definitely not broken. Hearthflame has a better offensive typing and Mold Breaker so it can break past Dnite/Archa easier without having to drop important coverage (Play Rough). Wellspring needs to run either Superpower/Knock to break through Dragon+Steel+Fly easier and if it's running PR into non-Dnite Dragon then it's mostly dead coverage since you're not breaking through Archaludon anyway. Its also gonna get revenged super easy by Pult / Moon. Hearthflame has the same issue @ speed tier. There's definitely a lot of threats that can outspeed it and keep it in check. It's mostly being used on Fire so Sand, Scarf Lando, Flutter Mane, Dragapult, and others are basically enjoying the free-in vs Oger since they click for free vs Fire as is and will generate a lot of momentum and win a sack war vs Hearthflame in theory, so their need for defensive counterplay isn't very prevalent.
I have not seen this thing win a game instantly as some people have claimed. I'm open to being proven wrong but genuinely I don't see how this could be on anyone's radar rn.
A Sneasler ban wouldn't really make sense tbh. This is like when the whole ban sleep moves in Monotype discussion opened up because it was "uncompetitive" and it was banned in OU. Sure, sleep is designed pretty poorly, but its not like its a recurring problem in Monotype. Like no type is running sleep moves and Dire Claw is only on one singular mon rn that isn't seeing a lot of usage as is. I've definitely lost to Dire Claw being a piece of shit and it's very infuriating, but its happening like maybe 1/20 games. If Sneasler was a lot more popular and we were seeing games lucked away in tournament in a consistent manner I'd be on board for a ban but just don't see the point atm.
I don't disagree with the fact that Volcarona is a matchup moth cheese lord still but I don't think its banworthy (yet..?). Above argument says smth about Volcarona beating passive teams and it being able to setup on Lando-I. Which 1. you can't always play passively. Kinda ties back to my above point about playing reactively all the time with defensive mons isn't going to win you games 10/10 times. I'm not sure I understand the correlation between Volcarona setting up on Lando-I = Volcarona being broken either. There are ways to adapt to the meta by using Rock Slide Lando-I anyway (helps with Articuno as well).
Usually I'm pro-ban stuff and I was actually somewhat outspoken about my thoughts in regards to the Mono council being too slouch-y with bans but I will eat my words and say I think they were good with holding off on suspecting Gliscor/Gholdengo and right now the tier is in a relatively fine state. People can/will still adapt to the meta and during MPL we have seen cool techs that reflect that.
My biggest issue when these kinds of discussions pop up is that a lot of people lean into the whole "it 2hkos by defensive check so its broken". Defensive counter-play shouldn't = your only counter-play. in a vacuum the logic of your defensive mon being killed easily makes sense as to why something can be broken, but mostly every single type has / or should have ways to revenge or chip down offensive mons. If your plan in every game is to only play reactively > proactively vs a threat then more often than not its going to win.
I used to be a huge proponent of banning him but as I mentioned a second ago he's like the only reason Meowscarada is being held back. Without Archaludon, Meowscarada is a free load into basically any type with its coverage. Archaludon is only super giga annoying vs types that don't have reliable access to Fight/Ground coverage or Knock-Off for lefties. The types that don't have access to that coverage or don't use it a lot (Fire, Ghost) can usually just offensively overwhelm it. It also has to fight to want to run things like tect/twave or 3a. It's usually picking and choosing what it wants to cover in builder (does it drop Draco or Flash?) so it's generally something you can fight against without much trouble. Scarf sets are definitely not inching towards uncompetitive at all so I won't mention anything abt that.
I think Flutter Mane might have the only real case for being a suspect target right now. It has one of the best offensive typings imo and can usually take a special hit and kill mostly whatever it wants with its coverage pool. I still think most types have okay counterplay to it (Hoodra, Gliscor/Articuno, Sand/Clodsire/Treads, etc. etc). Its still not super hard for it to run away with games but I don't really see it as an immediate ban target.
I never thought this guy was broken. I think he struggles to break past a lot of types besides like Fairy. Its annoying at best with Twave + Hex sets and needs to luck through things to win. Offensive NP sets are easily revenged bc its slow and isn't running bulk so it shouldn't pose much of an issue.
Runs so many different sets that it's always losing to oppurtunity cost. Some people use rocks, some people use SD thats walled by various things like Ghold or random balloon stuff. I don't think Gliscor should outright be winning games because it's really not that unkillable and depending on what its giving up in builder you should be able to take advantage of it. I definitely think its annoying but I don't think myself or my teammates made a single team all throughout MPL and I thought to myself "we don't break Gliscor".
We don't really have any breakers atm that are coming in and clicking Fire move x6 and winning the game like Gouging Fire was. Hearthflame I don't think is banworthy as is and I don't think Heat Rock makes it any more "OP" than it is rn. In fact, the Fire team that I made doesn't even use Heat Rock. It's really not that good.
During the Gambit suspect I was super flip-floppy. I wanted to ban it bc I found it uncompetitive, then Trichotomy kinda proved me wrong, and I realized it was decent glue. Now I'm again of the stance that IDK what freeing it does for the meta really. My issue with this one and the other potential unban mons is I asked in cord why people want this and other things unbanned and I got met with a resounding "i have reasons i want it unbanned, but this tier is shit so idgaf and wont tell you". soooo.........LOL. If the unban parade crowd doesn't even wanna elaborate on the unbans I think we should just not touch that pool of Pokemon right now.
I think if you are outright losing to Lando-I it's a bit of a builder issue. I tried writing up a more concise / objective opinion about this but I genuinely can't think of a way that this mon should be straight up just winning games without problems.
Waterpon is definitely not broken. Hearthflame has a better offensive typing and Mold Breaker so it can break past Dnite/Archa easier without having to drop important coverage (Play Rough). Wellspring needs to run either Superpower/Knock to break through Dragon+Steel+Fly easier and if it's running PR into non-Dnite Dragon then it's mostly dead coverage since you're not breaking through Archaludon anyway. Its also gonna get revenged super easy by Pult / Moon. Hearthflame has the same issue @ speed tier. There's definitely a lot of threats that can outspeed it and keep it in check. It's mostly being used on Fire so Sand, Scarf Lando, Flutter Mane, Dragapult, and others are basically enjoying the free-in vs Oger since they click for free vs Fire as is and will generate a lot of momentum and win a sack war vs Hearthflame in theory, so their need for defensive counterplay isn't very prevalent.
I have not seen this thing win a game instantly as some people have claimed. I'm open to being proven wrong but genuinely I don't see how this could be on anyone's radar rn.
A Sneasler ban wouldn't really make sense tbh. This is like when the whole ban sleep moves in Monotype discussion opened up because it was "uncompetitive" and it was banned in OU. Sure, sleep is designed pretty poorly, but its not like its a recurring problem in Monotype. Like no type is running sleep moves and Dire Claw is only on one singular mon rn that isn't seeing a lot of usage as is. I've definitely lost to Dire Claw being a piece of shit and it's very infuriating, but its happening like maybe 1/20 games. If Sneasler was a lot more popular and we were seeing games lucked away in tournament in a consistent manner I'd be on board for a ban but just don't see the point atm.
I don't disagree with the fact that Volcarona is a matchup moth cheese lord still but I don't think its banworthy (yet..?). Above argument says smth about Volcarona beating passive teams and it being able to setup on Lando-I. Which 1. you can't always play passively. Kinda ties back to my above point about playing reactively all the time with defensive mons isn't going to win you games 10/10 times. I'm not sure I understand the correlation between Volcarona setting up on Lando-I = Volcarona being broken either. There are ways to adapt to the meta by using Rock Slide Lando-I anyway (helps with Articuno as well).
Usually I'm pro-ban stuff and I was actually somewhat outspoken about my thoughts in regards to the Mono council being too slouch-y with bans but I will eat my words and say I think they were good with holding off on suspecting Gliscor/Gholdengo and right now the tier is in a relatively fine state. People can/will still adapt to the meta and during MPL we have seen cool techs that reflect that.