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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Can I just say the 1-5 rating system on the survey feels somewhat arbitrary? The meaning of a mon scoring a 1 or a 5 would be pretty self evident but interpreting the meaning of anything inbetween doesn't feel like it's rooted in any basis, like wtf does a 2.83 score mean? I personally think a binary 'I want this banned' and 'I don't want this banned' to each mon on the survey would produce more concrete results.
Also, an additional question that just asks a simple yes or no to whether or not the responder thinks the meta requires further tiering actions or not to begin with would be good to have as well, it would produce a clearer number about the necessity of tiering actions in general than the more amorphous 1-10 meta game satisfaction ratings imo.
Also, an additional question that just asks a simple yes or no to whether or not the responder thinks the meta requires further tiering actions or not to begin with would be good to have as well, it would produce a clearer number about the necessity of tiering actions in general than the more amorphous 1-10 meta game satisfaction ratings imo.
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I’m not surprised to see Kyurem score higher than everything on the general side, but seeing the qualified playerbase agree to their sentiment is interesting.
I’ve said it before, but Kyurem is more support reliant than any of the other top wallbreakers in the tier. Needing constant hazard removal and pivoting all contributed to its mediocre defensive typing. The multiple sets it can run could be identified in team preview.
That being said, what are your thoughts on Kyurem? Do you believe it should be banned? Or does it warrant staying in the tier?
I’ve said it before, but Kyurem is more support reliant than any of the other top wallbreakers in the tier. Needing constant hazard removal and pivoting all contributed to its mediocre defensive typing. The multiple sets it can run could be identified in team preview.
That being said, what are your thoughts on Kyurem? Do you believe it should be banned? Or does it warrant staying in the tier?
Out of the 'big three' i find ultimately deeply annoying, Kyu is definitely third. I'd love to see Ogerpon and Gliscor go first just due to they're annoying spammability and freedom to do largely whatever they wish, but Kyu remains a steadfast 3rd or 2nd thruout this gen due to the fact that even if you play around it optimally (hazards; playing offensively; etc) that it still does its damn job more often than not. Getting free Ice Beam or Freezedry chip on anything coming in is never bad, and being able to play around the ever present "will I DD this turn or just Tera and chip" is a constant headache.
Kyu requires the proper support to do what it wants to do for sure, Kyu structures will strive to keep it healthy and position it for most damage per turn. The amount of games I've lost or been on the downtrend due to freezes, needing to play very carefully or else you risk the chain reaction, etc is higher than I'd like. I find its ability to abuse Tera and tera Blast to cover up huge gaps in its defensive profile or blow past checks to be the biggest annoyance with it.
I think that's how I'd describe all three; It's annoying for Ogerpon to spam Ivy for free and get a lucky crit/encore/spike. It's annoying to try and scout Gliscor as it gets free progress due to its knock/toxic/spikes. It's annoying to play around Kyu as your Glowking can get frozen or blown up on the wrong turn. In comparison, I find mons like Garg and Tinglu--Hardy as they are, and so on--A lot more 'pleasant' due to their simplicity. You can play around Saltcure, you can wear down Tinglu or force it to tera to make the rest of the team its on to have less answers to your other mons. But the above 3 usually can come in and make a degree a high degree of progress per turn. Usually my teams naturally counter Tinglu and Garg so it might also be why I find them a lot more 'tame' in comparison.
Regardless, I find Kyu's existence to be a continued annoyance. It's not fun to play against, and the most serotonin I get is from seeing it die. In comparison, I find it a lot more enjoyable to play around dodging Future Sights from Gking than I ever would playing around Freeze's or Tera predictions from Kyu lol.
Kyurem does need support, but I disagree on the ability to identify its sets at Team Preview. The scary part of Kyurem is it can run so many variations of the same sets with the same moves and take out different targets. Choice Specs will always be nasty to switch in to, but I don't think it's its best set at the moment. My personal favorite is below:
Kyurem @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 24 Atk / 232 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Tera Blast
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
This is Mixed DD on steroids. Tera Fire serves three purposes here. One is to bop Scizor, Corviknight, and Air Balloon Gholdengo who think they are safe but are not. Two is to make sure no one tries to throw a clever Will-o-Wisp to ruin your day. The third is more subtle. Tera Blast can flip between a physical and special attack depending on the number of Dragon Dances set up. On this set, once it starts Dragon Dancing, Tera Blast turns into a physical attack and can 2HKO Blissey with the EV investment given.
+1 24 Atk Tera Fire Kyurem Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 327-385 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It doesn't feel like "flavor of the month" as much as Dragonite and Ting-Lu are, but Kyurem is still the biggest cold sore in SV OU.
The competitiveness and enjoyment were very close to my scores. The rest seems to be very middling whereas many of my score were a bit more on the extreme end this time around.
I'm a little annoyed that there seems to be no clear direction again according to the polls. The tier is in a better spot than it was, but as the competitiveness and enjoyment scores indicate, it could be a bit better.
Also, I have a special shoutout to whoever wrote in to bring back Raoring Moon after we just banned it. Come on, guys.
I don't think either mon is a problem. Darkrai is strong, but it has some limitations. Ting-Lu can check it fairly well. There are enough faster pokemon and priority moves in OU where offensive teams can usually RK it. Commonly used items for it like Boots and Scarf generally come with trade offs.
Tera Poison is a little bit crazy on Darkrai since you resist two former weaknesses and get extra power on a Poison coverage move. However, I don't think forcing the Tera Poison on it generally translates to wins for the Darkrai player. I don't know the actual statistics on this. It's just my personal experience having both played and faced Darkrai that Tera poisoned.
There are several strategies to beat Garganacl, but perhaps the best is to have a Covert Cloak mon. You can easily turn Garg from a threat into settup fodder that way. Cloak can be a good item on a decent number of pokemon, so it isn't usually too much to invest in one.
Other than that, mons with passive recovery like Gliscor and Glowking can usually take Salt Cure pretty well. Rillaboom is also good against Garg, but struggles in general right now. Because Garg is so passive, it doesn't like moves such as Taunt that prevent it from doing much. Garg is also a bit of a Tera hog, potentially losing to common Fighting moves that players pack for Gambit if it doesn't. Basically, there are plenty of ways for every archetype to beat it. I don't see it as a problem.
Yes, Kyurem is the final mon I really want to see banned this gen. The sheer power and the diversity of its sets makes it a problem in the builder. It's predictability is sort of misrepresented. On one hand, it is definitely harder to predict the set in the builder than many people say. Not only are you trying guess between special wallbreaker and Dragon Dance, but there are also multiple items, Tera types, and different sets like mixed or PP stall that you have to watch out for. Pinkacross did a video on this awhile back where he took the same base team and just kept swapping out different Kyurem sets. Nobody could figure it out in time. Here is the video:
This was like 8 months ago. This aspect has basically not changed since then.
Yeah, there are technically things you can do in team preview to increase your odds of guessing right. If you have hazards up, you can tell if it is boots. And by extension, you can see in the builder if there are proper anti-hazard control things on the opponents team. This can help you determine the likihood of it being boots or not. But this doesn't guarentee anything. You might just be facing a Pinkacross style troll. Even HDB sets can still be physical or special or even mixed. Also, a team with proper anti-hazard support could be just as likely any of the special, physical, or mixed variants.
The boots thing is just one example. Sure, you could take multiple tells and use them to try and make a better prediction on the set. I'm not going to get into every team preview detail. In general, I feel the ability to predict the Kyurem set in team preview is often very overstated. You could be right, but you could also very easily lose a game being overconfident on a wrong Kyurem prediction. A skilled player can just as easily hide an unexpected Kyurem set in team preview as a skilled player can learn to predict them. The team preview method is inherently unreliable here.
On the other hand, I would say it is actually easier to scout Kyurem in game than is often given credit for. It's still dangerous. But you can tell a lot more in game if your team is right. All you have to do is go through the proper progressions:
A. Assume it is special and switch in your special Kyurem check.
B. Have your plan B for if it DDs, and switch into your physical check to force it out.
The reason for this is because the special wallbreaking variants are more immediate with their power. The physial sets need at least a turn to set up, so you can often delay your response to it IF you have the right one in your back pocket. Once you know the Kyurem set, dealing with it often becomes much easier. It's not a guarentee. You can always be surprised by certain Tera types or different sets like mixed. You can be the victim of freeze hax. It's still a lot easier to scout Kyurem if you can do that, provided you can force it out the first time.
You can also combine this scouting method with regular item scouting. Methods such as using hazards to scout for boots, seeing Leftovers recovery as likely Sub/Tect or PP stall, and scouting for Specs damage or LO recoil. The issue is that, again, a set can take you by surprise the first time. This makes having a method of forcing Kyurem out pretty much mandatory for every team that isn't HO. But scouting it in game isn't too difficult.
The issue I have is that this really constrains what you can do in the builder. Checking Kyurem just specially or physically is a lot due to its wallbreaking and DD setup stregnths. Doing both with one team is a lot harder and harder still when you account for mixed variants. Freeze Dry further limits the list of viable Kyurem checks. When building my teams, unless it's a HO team, I have to take more precautions for Kyurem than virtually any other mon in the tier. It's honestly not that hard in game IF I have the right teams. But IF I don't have the right teams, it eats my soul. And IF it is a set my team is unprepared for, like mixed with DD/Freeze Dry or Tera Water, it's a matchup loss. The builder strain is to a degree where I just don't see it as a healthy presence.
Finally, I really don't like the threat variance Kyurem has as such a strong wallbreaker. We know going into it what something like Ogerpon is going to do. It has the same STABs, Tera, item, and general physical attacking methods. It might have a different coverage move or Encore or even Trailblaze. But I won't usually be surprised by it. Darkrai may have set diversity, but it's usually more special than physical. I'm not going to see it boost both speed and power on the same turn. Hoopa-U may be a powerful wallbreaker that can be physical, special, or mixed. I'm not worried about it setup sweeping on my ass if I guess the wrong set. I could go on. Every other wallbreaker in and around OU is healthier for the metagame than Kyurem.
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Its pretty overrated. I've been seeing a lot of that mediocre SubTect DD set on ladder, which is freelo for most of the teams I'm building where stuff like Dirge, Tera Water Gliscor, and even Heatran is beating that 1v1. Specs can be threatening, but I won't lie, I haven't found it to be too difficult to deal with either due to the hazard vulnerability. For an "unwallable" set its also pretty pathetic it can't OHKO Ting-Lu with Blizzard.... even with Tera! And like other sets, we have soft checks like Scarf Ghold / Weavile on Balances that can force this guy out and make it take even more hazard chip. Standard DD sets are the scariest, but since I've been running more Dirge on Balances, I haven't been struggling with this set as much. There is a lot of discourse on the power of Kyurem's unpredictability - and its a valuable trait, I won't lie - but time and again, I find that hazards offer universal counterplay to most of these, with boots sets being ok, but a bit mediocre in terms of damage.
Personally, I find it much easier to use other breakers like Weavile, Darkrai, and even Hydrappl compared to Kyurem. All three provide more general utility to a team between their defensive typing (for Hydrapple), speed (for Darkrai / Weavile) and other attributes like Knock off in Rai / Weavile's case or Regen in Hydrappl's case+ all 3 feel more threatening with boots. Specs Kyurem can be similarly braindead as a breaker, but needing to deal with Hazards is a massive annoyance that the former 3 Pokemon don't really have to deal with.
There are definetly some games that Kyurem can go ham in. There was one recent one between xavgb and storm zone which was largely centralized around Kyurem interactions. So it is still worth keeping an eye out for, but personally, I have not found it as big of an issue in practice as it is on paper.
Not as many takeaways from this one as some prior surveys, but thanks so much to Ruft for pulling through when I have been going through a tough few weeks.
Just to hit on the big points: qualified enjoyment and competitive scores are in a good spot. There’s room to improve, but it feels like we have hit some semblance of a stride within this generation. That’s always refreshing given how chaotic things could be, but personally I still see room to improve and plan on carrying out our detailed process.
I was a little surprised to see some scores kinda plateau or even go down — I feel like you can argue for a suspect on Gliscor, Kyurem, Wellspring, TBlast, etc., but honestly the results aren’t there and this is fine with me as I don’t see a super urgent push for angering in particular + we have a delicate balance right now.
I think things will change with the upcoming WCoP and we will have to circle back on a lot of discussions within the next month or so. Looking forward to that and remaining engaged in the interim. Hope everyone enjoys
I'm surprised that Darkrai received the most qualified mentions in the write-ins section given it's neither oppressive into fatter styles nor offense. It's a mon that requires a decent amount of support to break apart/clean teams. I guess it's very fast, which can be scary for some teams, but there's Zamazenta, one of the best mons in the tier, other faster Pokemon with Booster Energy, Dragapult, and the plenty of viable priority options we have in OU that can pick off Darkrai after getting chip on it. And if you're the type who likes webs, Araquanid is quite okay into Darkrai if you don't merely use it as a suicide lead. And this is mainly offensive counterplay as there are enough answers defensively to keep Darkrai manageable. Personally, I don't consider Darkrai even a Top 10 mon in the tier.
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I've always viewed it as follows
1: Perfectly fine, don't even bother suspecting or anything.
2: Impartial but would vote DNB if it went to suspects
3: Do not care one way or the other, do what you want
4: Impartial but would vote ban if it went to suspects
5: 100% banworthy, get it out of the metagame, pisses me off.
I feel like that's a completely fair way to interpret it, but the distinct lack of guidelines means there are like 10 other completely fair ways to interpret a 5 point grading scale and honestly it would be a lot more clear if we could get a binary system with an impartial option or at the very least some concise explanation for what warrants every point value.
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Kyurem i personally put at a 4. I've found the most consistent way is to imagine it's specs (as that is the most common set by far) and have some counterplay in the back if it pops DD. It's not a foolproof strategy and it doesn't account for band (lol) but it covers the bases for a solid 80% of kyurem cases. But it is an exceedingly annoying wallbreaker.
Gliscor is an interesting case for me because I know it's not overpowered from experience but that same experience tells me that playing against this piece of shit lizard moth thing (whatever the hell it's supposed to be) is the OU equivalent of getting stabbed on the heel of your foot while the perpetrator sits around waiting for it to start scabbing up so he can reopen the wound. It's not a giant threat but FUCK I hate playing against it. I'd put it at a 4 since it's barely in consideration for bans even if I want to personally meddle in the nintendo servers to remove this thing from the history of the game myself.
Wellspring is definitely banworthy. It gets in way too easily and kills something and runs off over and over again until all your walls mysteriously dissappear. Solid 5, open and shut case, really not much I can touch on.
I've always been on the tera ban side but looking back TB is the benefactor for pretty much every instance of tera cheese 90% winrate strategies we've seen in the past. Tera on its own is fine enough as a defensive tool. It's a really stupid mechanic but it is the mechanic for this generation, and offensive teras to gain boosts on coverage is honestly handleable. TB meanwhile allows any offensive threat barring waterpon to get away with atomizing one of its checks in an instant with pretty marginal counterplay. If it's really obvious that's what they're going to do, then sure, predict the TB, switch into dozo or whatever the hell you use to handle that, and you're fine. But in most situations TB is an instant win-this-1v1 button and it's frankly ridiculous. Kyurem uses it to cheese fights, so does Gambit, and so do like 5 other now banned ubers.
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In my opinion Darkrai isn't a suspect - tier Pokémon, at least not for now. With Sleep banned, it's an ability-less Pokémon that, while having a really good speed tier, it's outspeed by common, healthy Pokémon in the tier (Dragapult, Zamazenta, booster speed Pokémon like Valiant), is neutral aganist every common priority move in the tier excepting Sucker Punch from Gambit (which struggles to tank if chipped in late game) and its bulk is okay, nothing bad but not crazy by any means.
I understand that because it brings a lot of utility (can run NP Dark Pulse + two of: Sludge Bomb / FBlast / Ice Beam / TBlast), Choice with trick to ruin walls, HDB utility sets with moves like Knock Off, Will O or Sucker Punch but even then, I don't personally feel that it's breaking the tier apart, being centralizing or a solid wincon by itself.
In fact, I would argue that Avira is right and Darkrai is not even top 10. Top 15 for sure tho
I understand that because it brings a lot of utility (can run NP Dark Pulse + two of: Sludge Bomb / FBlast / Ice Beam / TBlast), Choice with trick to ruin walls, HDB utility sets with moves like Knock Off, Will O or Sucker Punch but even then, I don't personally feel that it's breaking the tier apart, being centralizing or a solid wincon by itself.
In fact, I would argue that Avira is right and Darkrai is not even top 10. Top 15 for sure tho
Darkrai has a case to be suspected... but after like 10 Mons are. He is nowhere near as bannable as Waterpon and Gliscor are. Kyurem is above too, Bolt is on decline but still more bannable than Darkrai, Wake in Sun is more obnoxious than Rai, Gambit does Gambit things, the capitalism ghost will never be banned but puts more strain on building than Darkrai could ever hope to achieve. And several more Mons I havent even mentioned. So, yes, Darkrai is a very strong threat, but the only reason right now for it to be banned is to make Sleep come back. And no one wants that.
The only thing about the survey that I find disappointing would be the limited demand for a wellspringe test, I think the metagame would be better off without most teams needing some form of defensive counterplay (thats usually a temporary check) to a pokemon that 2hkos most walls, but its not making the tier unplayable.
Also I’m grateful that tera blast and dragonite has received limited support, I wouldn’t want a ban of either.
Also I’m grateful that tera blast and dragonite has received limited support, I wouldn’t want a ban of either.
Highly recommend Knock Off + Tera Dark on the Scarf set if you want to lure in Pult and Gholdengo. You can even run Aqua Step over Wave Crash to make sure the speed boosts don't stop at +1. Some threats (Iron Valiant, Booster Tusk after Spin, Iron Moth) still need +2 speed to beat.
Replay of Stour game of it in action. Waddle waddle.
I was also somewhat dissapointed with the middling votes on the brokeness of mons. I think my tolerance for certain mons is definitely lower than most, but even taking that into account I was surprised that everything came out so low. I think, as has been a recurring theme this gen there's quite a few things that could be at least suspect-worthy but picking the top culprit is difficult. For me it would have to be kyurem as the number one, just because of set unpredictability. Nothing wrong with having lots of sets (iron valiant for example) but multiple of them are frankly absurd. DD with tera blast and specs I find most difficult to handle. Gliscor and Ogerpon are obviously very nasty as well. Gliscor particularly, I think spdef SD at that sweet spot of 250 speed is so easy to win with.
I think given the community uncertainty, I feel like tera blast suspect is ideal. I suppose the defense for it is that it allows for flexible creative building, but it's so easy and mindless to build with I don't really respect it. Normally when you build something surprising you have tradeoffs, you need to think of what mon has what options, often using weak coverage moves or less popular mons. Tera blast you just throw on an already strong mon and situationally sweep. Of course there's still a tradeoff, but the cost-potential reward is very high. Maybe not on the tier of other banned moves like baton pass, given the tera requirement, but I don't think it contributes anything meaningful in the builder or provides any skillful opportunities in game. It's just cheese and I don't know who'd miss it. It would be a significant nerf to kyurem and dnite too which perhaps would take them out of the suspect-worthy range. Plus, certain players seem very eager to unban mons. Currently I strongly oppose the freeing of more mons, especially volcarona, despite being its biggest fan (have we not learnt our lesson?), but we could bring back regieleki and maybe volc at least for a test. Maybe even moon if people really miss it. Obviously none of these are groundbreaking new points, but it feels like such a freebie option. No one likes cheese, no one likes getting beaten by dnite and kyurem and everyone likes more balanced mons being released.
I think given the community uncertainty, I feel like tera blast suspect is ideal. I suppose the defense for it is that it allows for flexible creative building, but it's so easy and mindless to build with I don't really respect it. Normally when you build something surprising you have tradeoffs, you need to think of what mon has what options, often using weak coverage moves or less popular mons. Tera blast you just throw on an already strong mon and situationally sweep. Of course there's still a tradeoff, but the cost-potential reward is very high. Maybe not on the tier of other banned moves like baton pass, given the tera requirement, but I don't think it contributes anything meaningful in the builder or provides any skillful opportunities in game. It's just cheese and I don't know who'd miss it. It would be a significant nerf to kyurem and dnite too which perhaps would take them out of the suspect-worthy range. Plus, certain players seem very eager to unban mons. Currently I strongly oppose the freeing of more mons, especially volcarona, despite being its biggest fan (have we not learnt our lesson?), but we could bring back regieleki and maybe volc at least for a test. Maybe even moon if people really miss it. Obviously none of these are groundbreaking new points, but it feels like such a freebie option. No one likes cheese, no one likes getting beaten by dnite and kyurem and everyone likes more balanced mons being released.
as a pretty big proponent of tblast ban, im not really too hung up about dropping things back into the tier vs keeping them banned, i just want tb gone because it's just more instability & variance in a tier already renowned for its instability & variance. I don't think there's really much of a reason for eleki or volc to come back into the tier if TB does get banned, feels like dropping them kind of defeats the purpose of banning tera blast in the first place by adding another strong setup sweeper to the tier— something SV OU already has in abundance with or without a TB ban. Regieleki could probably be fine, but again, i struggle to find ways that it would actively improve the metagame enough to warrant unbanning.
I completely agree with you. I think regieleki would be great as a spinner but realistically its going to UU again so I think that's a no brainer. I wouldn't want volc or moon back personally, but my point is that its a win even for the unban fans. I'm surprised the wider community consensus isn't that tera blast is kind of lame!
If Tera Blast were to be tested, and then banned, I think that we shouldn't drop any of the Pokemon banned before the move was banned. The tier's getting into a better place, and while I'm sure it could improve with a couple more bans down the line will improve the tier (I don't know about Uber dropping but I prefer to ban before dropping) unbanning stuff...
The candidates are:
honestly useless without TBlast and Transistor nerfed. What is this mon doing in a Ting Lu, Lando, Tusk AND Gliscor heavy meta. We can drop it so it's cool in UU I guess but beyond that...
& :roaringmoon: imo they don't add almost anything to the tier, only more tools to fish on HO and tera fishing shenanigans
Ban Stored Power instead:)
:gougingfire: same as Roaring Moon and Volc but even more tera hog and even less healthy
The candidates are:
honestly useless without TBlast and Transistor nerfed. What is this mon doing in a Ting Lu, Lando, Tusk AND Gliscor heavy meta. We can drop it so it's cool in UU I guess but beyond that... & :roaringmoon: imo they don't add almost anything to the tier, only more tools to fish on HO and tera fishing shenanigans Ban Stored Power instead:):gougingfire: same as Roaring Moon and Volc but even more tera hog and even less healthy
Tera Blast isn't the issue with Terastallization and doesn't fix any root cause with the metagame. The gripe with Terastallization is its ability to flip matchups on its head and increase variance to an unhealthy degree.
I have made this claim before, but now I have the textbook match to prove it (go to turn 20 for the part that matters). Tera Blast did not win Dragonite that match. It was Dragonite's ability to flip its type immunity on a whim that won that match. With that, OST was over.
Tera Blast itself is a souped up Hidden Power that's nice, but it's not game breaking. The game breaking parts of Tera are the ones the SV OU Council has decided not to touch. Given that choice, the next best thing is to play within those boundaries and move on.
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idk why people think Regieleki would do anything in OU without Tera Blast. The most used Pokemon in the tier is a Ground type, and there are 4 other highly splash able Ground type Pokemon in OU alone. Much like in SS OU Regieleki would have minimal impact on the tier if it lost access to Tera Blast. Dare I say, Regeleki would basically be not a Pokemon in OU.
Personally, should Tera Blast be banned, I'd unban any Pokémon whose ban reasoning hinged on Tera Blast, so Regieleki, and maybe a couple others? I know some of them, like Gouging Fire and Palafin, were genuinely too much for the tier, but it can't just be Regieleki that used Tera Blast to blast the tier apart, right? Anyways, once they're unbanned, should they be evidently still too much, quickban them since we knew them to be at least somewhat broken before, and don't want to waste time reaffirming what we already know.
I would never say no to another Spinner if Tera Blast were to get banned. Plus, being able to invest into other stats instead of Speed due to it's already insanely high speed tier lends some creativity to Regieleki. Unfortunately it's all hypotheticals unless Tera Blast actually gets banned, which seems very unlikely at the moment.
WALL OF TEXT INCOMING, APOLOGIES!
Primarily, though, I wanted to talk about Wellspring and how disappointed I am with it's results on the survey. I think this mon should definitely be looked at. Wellspring is the sum of it's parts, a blend of things that make it very threatening and allows it to run away with games more often than I feel like it should.
To start with the elephant in the room: Ivy Cudgel. This move is just insane, full stop. 100 BP move that doesn't make contact and has a high chance to crit. The main button you'll be clicking, outside of SD. Because of this, switching into Wellspring is always a gamble of whether you'll be crit or not, which can make or break some walls, god forbid it already got an SD up. Can't be punished with the likes of Helmet/Static/Flame Body. This makes would-be walls such as Zapdos, Corv, or Moltres (post-Tera) MUCH less effective, especially if you are switching into them, which limits defensive counterplay.
Two things I want to also mention is the Mask and Water Absorb: Wellspring's item gives it a 1.2x boost on ANY move it uses. Not just STABs, but ANY move. What the hell, GameFreak? Secondly, Water Absorb makes clicking moves like Flip Turn so much less safe to an insane degree. Letting in Wellspring for free, denying your pivot, and letting it have a free turn of setup is an extremely powerful boon. It can't even be hit with Scald! This makes Alomomola much riskier to slot into teams, as you must always play on eggshells versus teams with the 9th used mon in the tier (as of April 1st). Denying both pivot and status spread in this way is a fantastic boon for it.
Moving on-- it's movepool is just fantastic. High power STABs in Ivy Cudgel and Power Whip, Swords Dance is a premier setup move, Knock Off is Knock Off, Play Rough lets it handle Dragons that would otherwise wall it's STABs, U-Turn lets it pivot and retain momentum on switches that would want to try to eat it's STABs, Encore can give it free setup turns, Horn Leech gives it some form of recovery (which comes into play later), Trailblaze can boost it's average Speed stat (even if I think those sets are less good), hell it can even lay Spikes if it wants to.
Some people would argue this gives Wellspring 4MSS, but I couldn't disagree more. This just means you can mold Wellspring into whatever your team needs most: a setup sweeper that can run away with games after a single boost, a U-Turn pivot that forces progress with Knock and retains momentum, a hazard setter that boasts powerful STABs ala Hamurott. The mon is extremely customizable on this front, which can make it hard to prepare for and switch into, or guess the set depending on the team structure.
Another point people argue against Wellspring is it's use of Tera, and how it is locked to Water, unable to use other types. While this can certainly be a con at times--being able to defensively Tera for a free SD would truly push this mon to even greater heights--Tera Water is by no means a bad Tera to be locked into. Everyone knows it's defensive profile, being one of the top choices of Tera on fatasses such as Glowking and Gliscor. Plus, I'd argue even if it COULD run other Teras, many would still opt for Water anyways. Boosting Ivy Cudgel's damage EVEN MORE is such an insane progress-maker, letting you slam even mons that resist Water for obscene damage, especially with an SD up. With a little chip beforehand, some walls will fall to even this.
This is not even mentioning it's +1 Sp. Defense boost it gets for free just for Teraing, and unlike Intrepid Sword/Shield, it retains this buff even after switching out. This lets it sit on hits that would otherwise threaten it for a free turn of setup, or make it that much harder to kill when spamming Horn Leech.. Genuinely, when I slot Wellspring into my team I can hardly see it's Tera lock as a downside. This just lets me slot in other mons that would want to Tera more often such as Tera Blast Pult or the like, without fear of straining the team's Tera usage.
Of course, I've listed a lot of what I think it's overtuned about this mon, but I'm not gonna sit here and say it has no weaknesses, because it certainly does. Hazard weakness is a HUGE weakness to have, and being forced out because of good reads/an unlucky miss on Power Whip/etc. SEVERELY cuts into Wellspring's lifetime. HDB is a highly-used item for a reason. Secondly, it's Speed tier is pretty middling. 110 just doesn't cut it nowadays. Sharing the tier with mons like Zama, Darkrai, Dragapult, even Valiant without booster, means it can have trouble keeping up with the pace. Defensive counterplay DOES exist: The aforementioned Zama can match Wellspring's SDs with IDs of its own, Bulky Dnite (a favorite set of mine) can eat even Play Rough thanks to Multiscale and Dragon Tail it out, forcing more hazard damage and removing any SDs it might have gathered.
Thing is, these weaknesses can be patched up with its teammates. Wellspring LOVES Future Sight support from the likes of Glowking and Iron Crown. Zama and Pecharunt are now much more scared to switch in. Teammates can patch up it's speed tier issues with the likes of Sticky Webs (proven to be a viable strat with Araq) or Paralysis support (Pult, Zapdos, Tink, Hatterene, Ghold, Glowking again). Diligent hazard control can cushion its lack of Boots and make switchins safe. Even my earlier statement of ID mons matching SDs is a little shaky because of Cudgel's high crit rate.
All in all, Wellspring is the sum of its parts, a lot of things that combine together to make for a truly obnoxious mon. It is very punishing to switch into, and guessing wrong once can let it secure important kills, force large amounts of progress, or even run away with the game. Cudgel's high crit chance can make even reliable switchins still feel like a gamble. It's vast movepool makes it hard to accurately discern it's set from preview alone. As a personal anecdote, the other day on ladder I played 6 games in a row that were all won via Wellspring getting a single boost then clicking nothing but Cudgel, whether it was mine or my opponents lmao. I implore more people look at what this mon brings to the table for many teams. Sorry again for the wall of text, but my last several laddering sessions ended with me tilted at this thing, and I wanted to talk about it while the iron was hot.
WALL OF TEXT INCOMING, APOLOGIES!
Primarily, though, I wanted to talk about Wellspring and how disappointed I am with it's results on the survey. I think this mon should definitely be looked at. Wellspring is the sum of it's parts, a blend of things that make it very threatening and allows it to run away with games more often than I feel like it should.
To start with the elephant in the room: Ivy Cudgel. This move is just insane, full stop. 100 BP move that doesn't make contact and has a high chance to crit. The main button you'll be clicking, outside of SD. Because of this, switching into Wellspring is always a gamble of whether you'll be crit or not, which can make or break some walls, god forbid it already got an SD up. Can't be punished with the likes of Helmet/Static/Flame Body. This makes would-be walls such as Zapdos, Corv, or Moltres (post-Tera) MUCH less effective, especially if you are switching into them, which limits defensive counterplay.
Two things I want to also mention is the Mask and Water Absorb: Wellspring's item gives it a 1.2x boost on ANY move it uses. Not just STABs, but ANY move. What the hell, GameFreak? Secondly, Water Absorb makes clicking moves like Flip Turn so much less safe to an insane degree. Letting in Wellspring for free, denying your pivot, and letting it have a free turn of setup is an extremely powerful boon. It can't even be hit with Scald! This makes Alomomola much riskier to slot into teams, as you must always play on eggshells versus teams with the 9th used mon in the tier (as of April 1st). Denying both pivot and status spread in this way is a fantastic boon for it.
Moving on-- it's movepool is just fantastic. High power STABs in Ivy Cudgel and Power Whip, Swords Dance is a premier setup move, Knock Off is Knock Off, Play Rough lets it handle Dragons that would otherwise wall it's STABs, U-Turn lets it pivot and retain momentum on switches that would want to try to eat it's STABs, Encore can give it free setup turns, Horn Leech gives it some form of recovery (which comes into play later), Trailblaze can boost it's average Speed stat (even if I think those sets are less good), hell it can even lay Spikes if it wants to.
Some people would argue this gives Wellspring 4MSS, but I couldn't disagree more. This just means you can mold Wellspring into whatever your team needs most: a setup sweeper that can run away with games after a single boost, a U-Turn pivot that forces progress with Knock and retains momentum, a hazard setter that boasts powerful STABs ala Hamurott. The mon is extremely customizable on this front, which can make it hard to prepare for and switch into, or guess the set depending on the team structure.
Another point people argue against Wellspring is it's use of Tera, and how it is locked to Water, unable to use other types. While this can certainly be a con at times--being able to defensively Tera for a free SD would truly push this mon to even greater heights--Tera Water is by no means a bad Tera to be locked into. Everyone knows it's defensive profile, being one of the top choices of Tera on fatasses such as Glowking and Gliscor. Plus, I'd argue even if it COULD run other Teras, many would still opt for Water anyways. Boosting Ivy Cudgel's damage EVEN MORE is such an insane progress-maker, letting you slam even mons that resist Water for obscene damage, especially with an SD up. With a little chip beforehand, some walls will fall to even this.
This is not even mentioning it's +1 Sp. Defense boost it gets for free just for Teraing, and unlike Intrepid Sword/Shield, it retains this buff even after switching out. This lets it sit on hits that would otherwise threaten it for a free turn of setup, or make it that much harder to kill when spamming Horn Leech.. Genuinely, when I slot Wellspring into my team I can hardly see it's Tera lock as a downside. This just lets me slot in other mons that would want to Tera more often such as Tera Blast Pult or the like, without fear of straining the team's Tera usage.
Of course, I've listed a lot of what I think it's overtuned about this mon, but I'm not gonna sit here and say it has no weaknesses, because it certainly does. Hazard weakness is a HUGE weakness to have, and being forced out because of good reads/an unlucky miss on Power Whip/etc. SEVERELY cuts into Wellspring's lifetime. HDB is a highly-used item for a reason. Secondly, it's Speed tier is pretty middling. 110 just doesn't cut it nowadays. Sharing the tier with mons like Zama, Darkrai, Dragapult, even Valiant without booster, means it can have trouble keeping up with the pace. Defensive counterplay DOES exist: The aforementioned Zama can match Wellspring's SDs with IDs of its own, Bulky Dnite (a favorite set of mine) can eat even Play Rough thanks to Multiscale and Dragon Tail it out, forcing more hazard damage and removing any SDs it might have gathered.
Thing is, these weaknesses can be patched up with its teammates. Wellspring LOVES Future Sight support from the likes of Glowking and Iron Crown. Zama and Pecharunt are now much more scared to switch in. Teammates can patch up it's speed tier issues with the likes of Sticky Webs (proven to be a viable strat with Araq) or Paralysis support (Pult, Zapdos, Tink, Hatterene, Ghold, Glowking again). Diligent hazard control can cushion its lack of Boots and make switchins safe. Even my earlier statement of ID mons matching SDs is a little shaky because of Cudgel's high crit rate.
All in all, Wellspring is the sum of its parts, a lot of things that combine together to make for a truly obnoxious mon. It is very punishing to switch into, and guessing wrong once can let it secure important kills, force large amounts of progress, or even run away with the game. Cudgel's high crit chance can make even reliable switchins still feel like a gamble. It's vast movepool makes it hard to accurately discern it's set from preview alone. As a personal anecdote, the other day on ladder I played 6 games in a row that were all won via Wellspring getting a single boost then clicking nothing but Cudgel, whether it was mine or my opponents lmao. I implore more people look at what this mon brings to the table for many teams. Sorry again for the wall of text, but my last several laddering sessions ended with me tilted at this thing, and I wanted to talk about it while the iron was hot.
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I don't necessarily disagree with tera being problematic, however I do disagree with the best thing to do being nothing. Fundamentally, whether we like it or not (I voted ban back in the day, though I don't feel that strongly about it anymore) tera is here to stay. Yes a lot of the time it's not tera blast that wins games, but it adds another component to tera that is hard to predict and possibly game winning.
Yes it's not the most broken move ever, it's not baton pass, but it adds a layer of variance through unpredictability and brings very little skillful benefit to the tier. Given it's only worth talking about things that the majority of voters might want, I still think it's the lowest hanging fruit. For anti-tera people, surely a marginal nerf to tera and it's most unpredictable abusers is a good first step?
I’m going to be honest, I don’t think we’re ever going to get a Tera Blast ban. Despite the amount of people here campaigning for one, the support for it went down on the last survey, and by a significant margin for the qualified portion as well. There’s really just no more “broken” Tera Blast users: Kyurem and Dragonite are generally accepted as somewhat balanced, and there’s no real desire to free the banned Tera Blast users. Regileki really isn’t going to a good Spinner once it’s freed, as we saw with SS. There’s just too many ground types.