Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Maybe toxapex will even see some usage on balances... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

I think the best sets are gonna be

Offensive QD
Fiery Dance
Psychic
Quiver Dance
Bug Buzz

Bulky QD
Fiery Dance
Psychic
Quiver Dance
Morning Sun

Stallmon
Flamethrower
Will-o-Wisp
Morning Sun
Whirlwind

With the best Tera types being Ghost to block Rapid Spin and Espeed, Steel for general resistances, and Grass to beat Ogerpon-W.
 
I do not want to see Cucksire or Skelecuck back in my fucking OU tier.

Speaking of Stallmons, I noticed that a lot of stall matches revolve around Blissey, specifically trying to remove it or keep it. There’s no equivalent to Blissey for physical attackers, Dozo is the closest thing but it has to rely on Rest and coverage options. Darkrai for example absolutely defecates on it, as well as FRAUDcha and a lot of other stallmons, Tera Poison shuts down Pex and Gliscuck Toxic attempts, but you can’t release the Darkrai until you remove the Blissey. Status spreaders have to contend with Natural Cure and the occasional Heal Bell (FUCK Heal Bell). If Blissey and to a lesser extent Gliscuck goes down, your chances of beating stall significantly increase.

One thing that annoys me is how literally every Blissey runs Calm Mind. You really have to wonder who at GameFreak thought Blissey’s stat spread was a good idea. It feels like a sick joke from someone who was really mad about the physical/special split.
 
I do not want to see Cucksire or Skelecuck back in my fucking OU tier.

Speaking of Stallmons, I noticed that a lot of stall matches revolve around Blissey, specifically trying to remove it or keep it. There’s no equivalent to Blissey for physical attackers, Dozo is the closest thing but it has to rely on Rest and coverage options. Darkrai for example absolutely defecates on it, as well as FRAUDcha and a lot of other stallmons, Tera Poison shuts down Pex and Gliscuck Toxic attempts, but you can’t release the Darkrai until you remove the Blissey. Status spreaders have to contend with Natural Cure and the occasional Heal Bell (FUCK Heal Bell). If Blissey and to a lesser extent Gliscuck goes down, your chances of beating stall significantly increase.

One thing that annoys me is how literally every Blissey runs Calm Mind. You really have to wonder who at GameFreak thought Blissey’s stat spread was a good idea. It feels like a sick joke from someone who was really mad about the physical/special split.
cuck.... NNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

never use that word again.

what stallmons are useful depends on MU. you have a really bulky cm prima? pressure their pex and amoonguss. you have a raging bolt? take out blissey. you have a banded dragapult? burn their tera and knock dozo. it's purely a matchup thing. also, if you wanna beat stall, go knockrai. it's a good set.

not all blisseys run CM tdark btw. tect twater/tfairy sets also exist to fuck up gking and iron crown.

also chansey was before the physical special split. in fact, it was before the special defense stat.
 
Darkrai for example absolutely defecates on it
Lmao bro used a special attacker as an argument against Dondozo and then said nothing about Blissey. Let’s not pretend Blissey doesn’t have literally 10 Defense.
I do not want to see Cucksire or Skelecuck back in my fucking OU tier.

Speaking of Stallmons, I noticed that a lot of stall matches revolve around Blissey, specifically trying to remove it or keep it. There’s no equivalent to Blissey for physical attackers, Dozo is the closest thing but it has to rely on Rest and coverage options. Darkrai for example absolutely defecates on it, as well as FRAUDcha and a lot of other stallmons, Tera Poison shuts down Pex and Gliscuck Toxic attempts, but you can’t release the Darkrai until you remove the Blissey. Status spreaders have to contend with Natural Cure and the occasional Heal Bell (FUCK Heal Bell). If Blissey and to a lesser extent Gliscuck goes down, your chances of beating stall significantly increase.

One thing that annoys me is how literally every Blissey runs Calm Mind. You really have to wonder who at GameFreak thought Blissey’s stat spread was a good idea. It feels like a sick joke from someone who was really mad about the physical/special split.
Also in general can you very politely stfu? Stop saying shit like this bro, especially the stupid nicknames you give to Pokemon.
actually has stab moves that hit hard and aren't dogshit
It has to Tera to have a STAB move that every team doesn’t carry a resist or immunity to. Tbf Scale Shot also isn’t the most spammable but it at least boosts speed and doesn’t require Tera to use
mean you can, the issue is just that you’re so slow you can maybe take 1 KO and then you get revenged
Webs maybe?
 
I do not want to see Cucksire or Skelecuck back in my fucking OU tier.

Speaking of Stallmons, I noticed that a lot of stall matches revolve around Blissey, specifically trying to remove it or keep it. There’s no equivalent to Blissey for physical attackers, Dozo is the closest thing but it has to rely on Rest and coverage options. Darkrai for example absolutely defecates on it, as well as FRAUDcha and a lot of other stallmons, Tera Poison shuts down Pex and Gliscuck Toxic attempts, but you can’t release the Darkrai until you remove the Blissey. Status spreaders have to contend with Natural Cure and the occasional Heal Bell (FUCK Heal Bell). If Blissey and to a lesser extent Gliscuck goes down, your chances of beating stall significantly increase.

One thing that annoys me is how literally every Blissey runs Calm Mind. You really have to wonder who at GameFreak thought Blissey’s stat spread was a good idea. It feels like a sick joke from someone who was really mad about the physical/special split.
>physical wall loses to a special wallbreaker
funniest shit i've read today
ok but on a real note stall has no need for a designated physical wall because the majority of stallmons have their bulk either really balanced or leaning towards the physical side. Blissey is the exception (and it's a really notable one) and the choice between a physical or a special wallbreaker really depends on your MU into stall. If your team struggles pretty hard against stall because of blissey you should pick a physical wallbreaker and if you find your team struggling into stall but you can answer blissey with zero issues (not particularly hard since bliss is pretty passive for stall standards and has exploitable weaknesses) you'd be better off with a special wallbreaker since those generally have better matchups into the other 5 members of a stall team.
 
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>physical wall loses to a special wallbreaker
funniest shit i've read today
ok but on a real note stall has no need for a designated physical wall because the majority of stallmons have their bulk either really balanced or leaning towards the physical side. Blissey is the exception (and it's a really notable one) and the choice between a physical or a special wallbreaker really depends on your MU into stall. If your team struggles pretty hard against stall because of blissey you should pick a physical wallbreaker and if you find your team struggling into stall but you can answer blissey with zero issues (not particularly hard since bliss is pretty passive for stall standards and has exploitable weaknesses) you'd be better off with a special wallbreaker since those generally have better matchups into the other 5 members of a stall team.
1) Dozo quite literally functions as a physical blissey (although MUUUUCH worse)

2) clod is a secondary, smaller blissey that isn't crit weak, beats certain mixed threats better, etc.

Although, you're right. Most walls either lean physical bulk or have mixed bulk, so you can actually drop dozo on some teams (although this isn't recommended and dozo is mandatory on most teams.)
 
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1) Dozo quite literally functions as a physical blissey (although MUUUUCH worse)

2) clod is a secondary, smaller blissey that isn't crit weak, beats certain mixed threats better, etc.

Although, you're right. Most walls either lean physical bulk or have mixed bulk, so you can actually drop dozo on some teams (although this isn't recommended and dozo is mandatory on most teams.)
Dozo being physical blissey makes a lot more sense in gen 9 considering the difference between 150/60 and 255/10 bulk is more or less nonexistent in a metagame where at any given moment you can and probably will be staring down a +1 pokemon with like a 120 minimum in its attacking stat. I guess it's more likely for dozo to live a neutral special attack than blissey is to live a neutral physical attack but realistically if dozo was legal in any other gen (gen 3? but this is just about bulk so we're ignoring the fact it would be qb'd from there) it would realistically just be another physical-leaning wall that opts for SpD investment for mixed bulk.
 
Dozo being physical blissey makes a lot more sense in gen 9 considering the difference between 150/60 and 255/10 bulk is more or less nonexistent in a metagame where at any given moment you can and probably will be staring down a +1 pokemon with like a 120 minimum in its attacking stat. I guess it's more likely for dozo to live a neutral special attack than blissey is to live a neutral physical attack but realistically if dozo was legal in any other gen (gen 3? but this is just about bulk so we're ignoring the fact it would be qb'd from there) it would realistically just be another physical-leaning wall that opts for SpD investment for mixed bulk.
Agreed.

Usually, dozo will tank a neutral special hit or two from special attackers when physdef. Like gholdengo Shadow Balls, Raging Bolt dragon pulses, etc. But like. This is stall???? Why are you going dozo on a ghold outside of the rare spdef dozo wincon or a last ditch effort to survive after you got crit in an endgame.
 
I do not want to see Cucksire or Skelecuck back in my fucking OU tier.

Speaking of Stallmons, I noticed that a lot of stall matches revolve around Blissey, specifically trying to remove it or keep it. There’s no equivalent to Blissey for physical attackers, Dozo is the closest thing but it has to rely on Rest and coverage options. Darkrai for example absolutely defecates on it, as well as FRAUDcha and a lot of other stallmons, Tera Poison shuts down Pex and Gliscuck Toxic attempts, but you can’t release the Darkrai until you remove the Blissey. Status spreaders have to contend with Natural Cure and the occasional Heal Bell (FUCK Heal Bell). If Blissey and to a lesser extent Gliscuck goes down, your chances of beating stall significantly increase.

One thing that annoys me is how literally every Blissey runs Calm Mind. You really have to wonder who at GameFreak thought Blissey’s stat spread was a good idea. It feels like a sick joke from someone who was really mad about the physical/special split.
Uhmmmmm these two mons can still be used in the OU tier they aren't banned from it.
 
Ogerpon right now is overwhelming to deal with for balance teams and is almost single handedly making the playstyle unviable currently. I am hesitant to wave the ban hammer at everything.

My suggestion is to revert the sleep ban back to the clause it was for all the rest of comp mons history. The sleep clause ban artificially nerfed defensive grass types (a type that is generally bad defensively, but also necessary to have a lot of the time) resulting in no good defensive grass types in OU which is a huge reason oger feels overwhelming.

The immediate impact of this overturn is that amoongus is once again viable. A viable amoongus means that balance has something to not only deal with oger, but shut it down nigh completely, preventing ogerpon from being overbearing.

The sleep ban was unnecessary and pointless regardless. It is not like sleep moves were overbearing when we have gholdengo in the tier. I implore the council to consider this action before we try to ban ogerpon.
 
while this is true, just remember it could be worse. everything and their mother got knock in the dlc, if gambit got it i dont even wanna imagine... (not giving it to honchkrow dumb tho)
I want to, because it would have made Gambit a definite ban instead of a wishy-washy prospect on a list of 5+ candidates.

Jokes aside, I feel like threat saturation is just reaching a point where nothing is inherently "more deserving" of getting removed, but the tier as-is is also not in the best place it can be, so it's hard to consider what I'd actually advocate for "objectively" as opposed to just what I'd want gone from that shortlist and my preferences (Kyurem and probably Tera Blast, full disclosure)
 
My suggestion is to revert the sleep ban back to the clause it was for all the rest of comp mons history.
absolutely not. this clause has been a pretty silly leftover from old tiering and we finally got rid of it for a proper sleep ban. either sleep is a broken status in its entirety or it isnt, we shouldnt consider the heavily altered version of sleep when talking about the mechanic
 
Ogerpon right now is overwhelming to deal with for balance teams and is almost single handedly making the playstyle unviable currently. I am hesitant to wave the ban hammer at everything.

My suggestion is to revert the sleep ban back to the clause it was for all the rest of comp mons history. The sleep clause ban artificially nerfed defensive grass types (a type that is generally bad defensively, but also necessary to have a lot of the time) resulting in no good defensive grass types in OU which is a huge reason oger feels overwhelming.

The immediate impact of this overturn is that amoongus is once again viable. A viable amoongus means that balance has something to not only deal with oger, but shut it down nigh completely, preventing ogerpon from being overbearing.

The sleep ban was unnecessary and pointless regardless. It is not like sleep moves were overbearing when we have gholdengo in the tier. I implore the council to consider this action before we try to ban ogerpon.
Sleep in horrendously uncompetitive in singles. It's not just darkrai.

Yeah, darkrai is broken with hypnosis. But Iron valiant is also stupid sometimes. Random sleep powder/spore/etc shitters like venusaur, hilligant, breloom are also insanely annoying. Red Card amoonguss can genuinely just lose you the game with absolutely no fault of your own.

Absolutely no top players miss sleep, it's one of the most unanimously agreed upon good bans in SV OU's history. Don't even suggest bringing it back.
 
My suggestion is to revert the sleep ban back to the clause it was for all the rest of comp mons history. The sleep clause ban artificially nerfed defensive grass types (a type that is generally bad defensively, but also necessary to have a lot of the time) resulting in no good defensive grass types in OU which is a huge reason oger feels overwhelming.
sinistcha and hydrapple are both pretty good
 
sinistcha and hydrapple are both pretty good
both can lose to coverage. sinistcha to knock, hydra to play rough. They are solid but not the surest answers.

Sleep in horrendously uncompetitive in singles. It's not just darkrai.

Yeah, darkrai is broken with hypnosis. But Iron valiant is also stupid sometimes. Random sleep powder/spore/etc shitters like venusaur, hilligant, breloom are also insanely annoying. Red Card amoonguss can genuinely just lose you the game with absolutely no fault of your own.

Absolutely no top players miss sleep, it's one of the most unanimously agreed upon good bans in SV OU's history. Don't even suggest bringing it back.

Uncompetitive has always been and will always be a stupid argument. This is Pokémon. Are we going to ban body slam because it can para? Are we going to ban twave because you can get full parad 20 times in a row? Are we going to ban all attacks but stoss because they can crit?

Something is either broken or it isnt. And sleep isnt since gen 5. Darkrai is an exception that might be broken because it's darkrai not because of sleep. Hypnosis Val? You really think that is a broken set? Red card amoongus was a broken pokemon when sleep existed? Show me the vr that has amoongus at S+.

People really lose to something once and want it banned. This is wild.
 
both can lose to coverage. sinistcha to knock, hydra to play rough. They are solid but not the surest answers.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Amoonguss: 360-424 (83.5 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

what's with the amoonguss glazing every time someone brings up sleep, the mon is annoying to face and not even fun to use when your opponent has a gholdengo or gliscor (so like, 40% of teams)
 
both can lose to coverage. sinistcha to knock, hydra to play rough. They are solid but not the surest answers.



Uncompetitive has always been and will always be a stupid argument. This is Pokémon. Are we going to ban body slam because it can para? Are we going to ban twave because you can get full parad 20 times in a row? Are we going to ban all attacks but stoss because they can crit?

Something is either broken or it isnt. And sleep isnt since gen 5. Darkrai is an exception that might be broken because it's darkrai not because of sleep. Hypnosis Val? You really think that is a broken set? Red card amoongus was a broken pokemon when sleep existed? Show me the vr that has amoongus at S+.

People really lose to something once and want it banned. This is wild.
Sleep (while heavily nerfed with a clause) was totally balanced I swear!!! (except for 2/9 generations in which even the nerfed sleep became problematic) Just because gamefreak specifically attempted to balance spore through distribution doesn't mean the status on the whole is not both broken and uncompetitive, to the point where sleep clause became needed in the first place.
 
I went digging into the archives a few days ago to research Terastallization again. After a string of frustrating losses that felt dictated more by luck than strategy, I realized that the variance introduced by Tera mechanics deserved a deeper look. My goal was to understand what makes it such a polarizing mechanic and how it could be improved. After losing several low-ladder coin-flip matchups, I realized the problem with Tera is not Tera Blast or the type-flipping component to become immune to a previously 4x weak attack, but rather the variance caused by having so many different unknown Tera choices. This variance can save unwinnable scenarios far too often. The solution to this is "Open Tera," or revealing Tera types at Team Preview. This idea gained traction during the suspect test two years ago. The Tera vote itself was one of the closest in Smogon history (59% in favor of action), and the action preferred was Tera Preview. I didn’t count the votes myself, but my guess is that two years ago, if Tera Preview had been the choice against no action, it would have won outright.

SV OU is not a perfect metagame. However, it is redeemable because of its strong foundation of diverse team archetypes and creative strategies. The tools for a balanced and competitive experience are already in place; they just need refinement to mitigate excessive variance and improve gameplay consistency. Tons of suspect test ideas have been thrown around in various threads. The Palafin test was a huge missed opportunity to address the real root cause of SV OU discontentment. When the idea of a "community-led" suspect test arose, I created an internal big board of over 30 different suspect test ideas, including all A+ VR Pokémon and above, bringing down unloved Ubers, retesting previous controversial cases, and tweaking game mechanics. Among all these, "Open Tera" stood out because it most closely addressed the root cause of SV OU frustration: its abnormally high variance in results.

Some variance is tolerable and even encouraged. For example, moves like Scald introducing the chance of a burn or secondary effects like flinches from Air Slash add an element of unpredictability without completely overriding strategy. Pokémon is not chess; it has nondeterministic elements that make each match unique and exciting. If games didn’t have randomness, casinos wouldn’t exist because there’d be no reason to pull the lever on a slot machine. However, too much variance bails out players in poor positions far too often. This makes the game far less enjoyable. Losing to hax feels bad, but at least there are ways to minimize risks and play better. Tera, on the other hand, can feel like a “get out of jail free” card, flipping outcomes with minimal counterplay.

The Eight Components of Terastallization​

Terastallization is built on eight distinct components that make it a unique mechanic. While each of these adds depth to the gameplay, they also combine to amplify variance to a level that can feel unmanageable. Understanding these components helps clarify how they contribute to both strategic opportunities and frustration. While some of these encourage strategic depth, others significantly amplify variance:

  1. Type Transformation: The ability to change a Pokémon’s type to any other type creates flexibility, allowing surprise immunities or resistances.
  2. Tera Blast: A special move that adapts to the user’s higher offensive stat and matches their Tera type, offering unique coverage options.
  3. STAB Amplification: Pokémon that Terastallize into their original type gain an enhanced 2× multiplier on their STAB moves, compared to the standard 1.5×. This 33% increase in damage output significantly enhances their offensive pressure.
  4. Surprise Element: Without Tera Preview, opponents must guess the Tera type, creating high-stakes situations where wrong predictions flip games unexpectedly.
  5. Defensive Resilience: Tera allows a Pokémon to neutralize or reduce previously crippling weaknesses, such as Garchomp using Steel Tera to counter Ice and Fairy.
  6. Synergistic Interactions: Certain items (e.g., Assault Vest) and abilities (e.g., Protean) synergize with Tera, redefining a Pokémon’s role mid-battle.
  7. Strategic Type-Matching: Teams can leverage Tera types to counter threats or create synergies, such as Dragonite’s Normal Tera enhancing Extreme Speed.
  8. Mid-Battle Role Reversal: Tera enables dynamic role shifts, such as Dragapult becoming defensive with Fairy Tera to counter threats it couldn’t otherwise handle.
These elements interact to create unprecedented levels of variance. For example, the combination of defensive resilience (Component 5) and surprise element (Component 4) often leaves players unable to predict or counter effectively, flipping games in unpredictable ways.

Historical Precedent for Action​

Smogon has addressed problematic mechanics in the past when they threatened the competitive integrity of the game. For example, Sleep Clause and the Dynamax ban were broadly supported because they restored balance to the game. While controversial at first, these decisions ultimately enhanced competitive play and earned widespread acceptance. Tera Preview aligns with this precedent as a measured approach to preserving strategic depth while addressing its flaws. For example:

  • Sleep Clause: Implemented to mitigate the randomness of sleep spam, despite being outside cartridge rules.
  • Dynamax Ban: Dynamax was deemed too powerful for competitive play and removed entirely in Gen 8 OU.
  • National Dex itself is a modification to bring back Dexited components of previous generations.
Tera Preview aligns with this tradition. It preserves the strategic depth of Terastallization while mitigating its variance. Dynamax was laughably overpowered and had no place in OU; Tera is far less egregious but suffers from an overabundance of unpredictable outcomes.

Missed Opportunities and Future Directions​

I don’t fault any tier leader—they’ve done incredible work, and I certainly wouldn’t want that job. That said, as a community, we’ve made systemic missteps that have compounded over time, leaving key opportunities to improve the tier unaddressed. However, as a community, we’ve made systemic missteps:

  • Kyurem: Mishandled twice, it dominated the tier and warped team-building before being banned (and then unbanned after joke votes intended to have no impact kept it alive when a cheating scandal broke out.)
  • Kingambit: A razor-thin vote allowed it to run unchecked, becoming one of the biggest problems in OU.
  • Palafin: A suspect test could have addressed Tera's overwhelming presence, but the opportunity was missed.
These decisions weren’t made by any single individual, but they’ve shaped the current state of SV OU. We now have the chance to fix Tera before inaction causes permanent damage. Open Tera would reduce variance without removing the mechanic entirely, striking a balance between innovation and competitive fairness.

Call to Action​

Inaction is a choice. The closer we get to the end of SV’s lifecycle, the harder it becomes to make meaningful changes. Open Tera offers a solution that respects the spirit of Terastallization while addressing its flaws. Let’s not let this opportunity slip away again. The future of SV OU depends on our willingness to act now.
 
I think adding sleep back would be very bad for balance teams. As we all know, Gen 9's power level is very high, and being able to throw off a sleep and effectively eliminate a role that may have been necessary to stop a slough of offense would be very difficult to handle. Of course you could perhaps say that balance could make use of sleep and its users itself, but offensive dynamics that center around sleep don't sound very healthy to me.
 
I forgot who said this, but it was something along the lines of “Sleep isn’t only problematic when it works, it’s also problematic when it doesn’t, if you have a dedicated sleep sack and Hypnosis fails, you’re now in a much worse position because your sleep sack is going to get either killed or set up on, and your previous counter can still get put to sleep”

The idea that Sleep is anything but broken is absolutely laughable, just flat out disabling a team member is brainless cheese that makes the game objectively worse to play in. For the most part, every Pokemon is important to a team, even on HO there are some mons that you would rather preserve, getting what’s at worst a phaze (that, unlike WW or DTail, can’t be undone immediately) and at best a free kill and/or free setup is often all that you need to win the game. Such strategies were meant for 10 year olds who can’t find away around a certain Pokemon on a Gym Leader’s team, not actual competitive play that demands skill from its players.
 
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