Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Carl The Turtle]

+1 252 Atk Kyurem Scale Shot (4 hits) vs. 244 HP / 112 Def Volcarona: 304-360 (81.7 - 96.7%) -- approx. 2HKO (pretty sure this is the EV spread bulkurona used to run)

Volcarona is a nice Mixed and SubTect Kyurem answer but it gets destroyed by physical variants with Scale Shot (40% according to usage stats)

the will-o-wisp in my back pocket:
(edit to expand on this i guess: trading volcarona's hp for burning the kyurem and taking it out of commission is absolutely a worthwhile trade, as scale shot sets will basically never be mixed)
also so this isnt a one liner i never really see draco on the occasional specs sets i see around, 3 ice moves + EP feels way more common

 

[Karmazz]

What do you guys think the most famous team of gen 9 OU is? I've heard mentions for CTC's legendary keldeo/sinistcha duo, the famous "dark n' darker" offense, and the obscenely annoying and aggravating prime pult squad. More minor mentions would be the Reflect Araquanid Duckular webs squad, Knexhawk (ew.)'s Ting-Lu Stall, etc. What do yall think?

It’s not a full team but it feels wrong to not at least mention zap/king/lu. It’s only so infamous now because of how dominant it was, nothing else from a year ago is still talked about to the same extent.

I’d also mention the blimax corv/dozo/kyurem team but idk how much of that is just my pro-corv and balance bias.

 

[RainebowValiant]

+1 252 Atk Kyurem Scale Shot (4 hits) vs. 244 HP / 112 Def Volcarona: 304-360 (81.7 - 96.7%) -- approx. 2HKO (pretty sure this is the EV spread bulkurona used to run)
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 306-360 (82.2 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Volcarona is a nice Mixed and SubTect Kyurem answer but it gets destroyed by physical variants with Scale Shot (40% according to usage stats) and Specs Draco Meteor (15% run Specs). So actually Volc loses to about 55% of Kyurem sets. It's a decent check but I wouldn't say fantastic.

The only sets that threaten stall are tblast electric ddance sets and mixed sets (and sometimes Specs Tera Ice Blizzard can give a little bit of trouble) so volc does the job fine enough combined with dozo

 

[Wapf]

the will-o-wisp in my back pocket:
(edit to expand on this i guess: trading volcarona's hp for burning the kyurem and taking it out of commission is absolutely a worthwhile trade, as scale shot sets will basically never be mixed)
also so this isnt a one liner i never really see draco on the occasional specs sets i see around, 3 ice moves + EP feels way more common

I mean if you’re just using it to wisp kyurem and die just about anything with wisp could do the trick

 

[RainebowValiant]

I mean if you’re just using it to wisp kyurem and die just about anything with wisp could do the trick

Volcarona > Talonflame/Moltres at beating Kyurem because it actually resists Ice and also beats special sets incredibly well. It's also a good standalone stallmon for the same reasons as those two.

 

[tntblader]

You guys know if the terablast ban goes through volc isn't an unban, it'll be suspected in (finch said this) and you are only focusing on defensive volcarona and ignoring what more offensive sets could also do.

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

You guys know if the terablast ban goes through volc isn't an unban, it'll be suspected in (finch said this) and you are only focusing on defensive volcarona and ignoring what more offensive sets could also do.

I know that it can't do anything to the mons that then hard wall it. But i do understand it's not a certain unban and would need a test and we should probably minimize discussion of volcarona and its affects for now and focus on tera blast ban merits outside of volcarona.

Though regileki is such an obvious unban that it should be included in the tera blast suspect test which should start on January 28th

 

[RainebowValiant]

You guys know if the terablast ban goes through volc isn't an unban, it'll be suspected in (finch said this) and you are only focusing on defensive volcarona and ignoring what more offensive sets could also do.

1) volcarona is not broken without tblast.

2) offensive volcarona is walled by a lot. It hates dnite, it hates AV mola, it hates AV gking (and regular gking if it's only gotten 1 boost or so), it hates heatran (will see a rise with volc legal), it absolutely CANNOT break stall, it loses to a lot of shit on offense as long as it's not +3, it can lose to balances by getting toxiced by Gliscor or twaved by gking or anything, etc. It won't be broken.

 

[Cyber-DJ]

1) volcarona is not broken without tblast.

2) offensive volcarona is walled by a lot. It hates dnite, it hates AV mola, it hates AV gking (and regular gking if it's only gotten 1 boost or so), it hates heatran (will see a rise with volc legal), it absolutely CANNOT break stall, it loses to a lot of shit on offense as long as it's not +3, it can lose to balances by getting toxiced by Gliscor or twaved by gking or anything, etc. It won't be broken.

What about lower tier pokes? Surely Skeledirge starts to get used a smidge more once Volc comes back?

 

[RainebowValiant]

What about lower tier pokes? Surely Skeledirge starts to get used a smidge more once Volc comes back?

I hate to play against dirge but it and heatran will certainly rise in usage. Clod too, good for them <3333

 

[Cyber-DJ]

Clodsire as well? Even better

 

[RainebowValiant]

Maybe toxapex will even see some usage on balances... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

I think the best sets are gonna be

Offensive QD
Fiery Dance
Psychic
Quiver Dance
Bug Buzz

Bulky QD
Fiery Dance
Psychic
Quiver Dance
Morning Sun

Stallmon
Flamethrower
Will-o-Wisp
Morning Sun
Whirlwind

With the best Tera types being Ghost to block Rapid Spin and Espeed, Steel for general resistances, and Grass to beat Ogerpon-W.

 

[Seraphyde]

I do not want to see Cucksire or Skelecuck back in my fucking OU tier.

Speaking of Stallmons, I noticed that a lot of stall matches revolve around Blissey, specifically trying to remove it or keep it. There’s no equivalent to Blissey for physical attackers, Dozo is the closest thing but it has to rely on Rest and coverage options. Darkrai for example absolutely defecates on it, as well as FRAUDcha and a lot of other stallmons, Tera Poison shuts down Pex and Gliscuck Toxic attempts, but you can’t release the Darkrai until you remove the Blissey. Status spreaders have to contend with Natural Cure and the occasional Heal Bell (FUCK Heal Bell). If Blissey and to a lesser extent Gliscuck goes down, your chances of beating stall significantly increase.

One thing that annoys me is how literally every Blissey runs Calm Mind. You really have to wonder who at GameFreak thought Blissey’s stat spread was a good idea. It feels like a sick joke from someone who was really mad about the physical/special split.

 

[RainebowValiant]

I do not want to see Cucksire or Skelecuck back in my fucking OU tier.

Speaking of Stallmons, I noticed that a lot of stall matches revolve around Blissey, specifically trying to remove it or keep it. There’s no equivalent to Blissey for physical attackers, Dozo is the closest thing but it has to rely on Rest and coverage options. Darkrai for example absolutely defecates on it, as well as FRAUDcha and a lot of other stallmons, Tera Poison shuts down Pex and Gliscuck Toxic attempts, but you can’t release the Darkrai until you remove the Blissey. Status spreaders have to contend with Natural Cure and the occasional Heal Bell (FUCK Heal Bell). If Blissey and to a lesser extent Gliscuck goes down, your chances of beating stall significantly increase.

One thing that annoys me is how literally every Blissey runs Calm Mind. You really have to wonder who at GameFreak thought Blissey’s stat spread was a good idea. It feels like a sick joke from someone who was really mad about the physical/special split.

cuck.... NNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

never use that word again.

what stallmons are useful depends on MU. you have a really bulky cm prima? pressure their pex and amoonguss. you have a raging bolt? take out blissey. you have a banded dragapult? burn their tera and knock dozo. it's purely a matchup thing. also, if you wanna beat stall, go knockrai. it's a good set.

not all blisseys run CM tdark btw. tect twater/tfairy sets also exist to fuck up gking and iron crown.

also chansey was before the physical special split. in fact, it was before the special defense stat.

 

[rinagram]

One thing that annoys me is how literally every Blissey runs Calm Mind. You really have to wonder who at GameFreak thought Blissey’s stat spread was a good idea. It feels like a sick joke from someone who was really mad about the physical/special split.

And you know why that is? That’s right folks, Gholdengo #bangholdengo

 

[Dead by Daylight]

more like #banblissey. thing’s got way too high of a HP and SpDef stat, it magically denies hazards by virtue of being itself

 

[Conflux123]

Darkrai for example absolutely defecates on it

Lmao bro used a special attacker as an argument against Dondozo and then said nothing about Blissey. Let’s not pretend Blissey doesn’t have literally 10 Defense.

I do not want to see Cucksire or Skelecuck back in my fucking OU tier.

Speaking of Stallmons, I noticed that a lot of stall matches revolve around Blissey, specifically trying to remove it or keep it. There’s no equivalent to Blissey for physical attackers, Dozo is the closest thing but it has to rely on Rest and coverage options. Darkrai for example absolutely defecates on it, as well as FRAUDcha and a lot of other stallmons, Tera Poison shuts down Pex and Gliscuck Toxic attempts, but you can’t release the Darkrai until you remove the Blissey. Status spreaders have to contend with Natural Cure and the occasional Heal Bell (FUCK Heal Bell). If Blissey and to a lesser extent Gliscuck goes down, your chances of beating stall significantly increase.

One thing that annoys me is how literally every Blissey runs Calm Mind. You really have to wonder who at GameFreak thought Blissey’s stat spread was a good idea. It feels like a sick joke from someone who was really mad about the physical/special split.

Also in general can you very politely stfu? Stop saying shit like this bro, especially the stupid nicknames you give to Pokemon.

actually has stab moves that hit hard and aren't dogshit

It has to Tera to have a STAB move that every team doesn’t carry a resist or immunity to. Tbf Scale Shot also isn’t the most spammable but it at least boosts speed and doesn’t require Tera to use

mean you can, the issue is just that you’re so slow you can maybe take 1 KO and then you get revenged

Webs maybe?

 

[RainWaiv]

I do not want to see Cucksire or Skelecuck back in my fucking OU tier.

Speaking of Stallmons, I noticed that a lot of stall matches revolve around Blissey, specifically trying to remove it or keep it. There’s no equivalent to Blissey for physical attackers, Dozo is the closest thing but it has to rely on Rest and coverage options. Darkrai for example absolutely defecates on it, as well as FRAUDcha and a lot of other stallmons, Tera Poison shuts down Pex and Gliscuck Toxic attempts, but you can’t release the Darkrai until you remove the Blissey. Status spreaders have to contend with Natural Cure and the occasional Heal Bell (FUCK Heal Bell). If Blissey and to a lesser extent Gliscuck goes down, your chances of beating stall significantly increase.

One thing that annoys me is how literally every Blissey runs Calm Mind. You really have to wonder who at GameFreak thought Blissey’s stat spread was a good idea. It feels like a sick joke from someone who was really mad about the physical/special split.

>physical wall loses to a special wallbreaker
funniest shit i've read today
ok but on a real note stall has no need for a designated physical wall because the majority of stallmons have their bulk either really balanced or leaning towards the physical side. Blissey is the exception (and it's a really notable one) and the choice between a physical or a special wallbreaker really depends on your MU into stall. If your team struggles pretty hard against stall because of blissey you should pick a physical wallbreaker and if you find your team struggling into stall but you can answer blissey with zero issues (not particularly hard since bliss is pretty passive for stall standards and has exploitable weaknesses) you'd be better off with a special wallbreaker since those generally have better matchups into the other 5 members of a stall team.

 

[RainebowValiant]

>physical wall loses to a special wallbreaker
funniest shit i've read today
ok but on a real note stall has no need for a designated physical wall because the majority of stallmons have their bulk either really balanced or leaning towards the physical side. Blissey is the exception (and it's a really notable one) and the choice between a physical or a special wallbreaker really depends on your MU into stall. If your team struggles pretty hard against stall because of blissey you should pick a physical wallbreaker and if you find your team struggling into stall but you can answer blissey with zero issues (not particularly hard since bliss is pretty passive for stall standards and has exploitable weaknesses) you'd be better off with a special wallbreaker since those generally have better matchups into the other 5 members of a stall team.

1) Dozo quite literally functions as a physical blissey (although MUUUUCH worse)

2) clod is a secondary, smaller blissey that isn't crit weak, beats certain mixed threats better, etc.

Although, you're right. Most walls either lean physical bulk or have mixed bulk, so you can actually drop dozo on some teams (although this isn't recommended and dozo is mandatory on most teams.)

 

[RainWaiv]

1) Dozo quite literally functions as a physical blissey (although MUUUUCH worse)

2) clod is a secondary, smaller blissey that isn't crit weak, beats certain mixed threats better, etc.

Although, you're right. Most walls either lean physical bulk or have mixed bulk, so you can actually drop dozo on some teams (although this isn't recommended and dozo is mandatory on most teams.)

Dozo being physical blissey makes a lot more sense in gen 9 considering the difference between 150/60 and 255/10 bulk is more or less nonexistent in a metagame where at any given moment you can and probably will be staring down a +1 pokemon with like a 120 minimum in its attacking stat. I guess it's more likely for dozo to live a neutral special attack than blissey is to live a neutral physical attack but realistically if dozo was legal in any other gen (gen 3? but this is just about bulk so we're ignoring the fact it would be qb'd from there) it would realistically just be another physical-leaning wall that opts for SpD investment for mixed bulk.

 

[RainebowValiant]

Dozo being physical blissey makes a lot more sense in gen 9 considering the difference between 150/60 and 255/10 bulk is more or less nonexistent in a metagame where at any given moment you can and probably will be staring down a +1 pokemon with like a 120 minimum in its attacking stat. I guess it's more likely for dozo to live a neutral special attack than blissey is to live a neutral physical attack but realistically if dozo was legal in any other gen (gen 3? but this is just about bulk so we're ignoring the fact it would be qb'd from there) it would realistically just be another physical-leaning wall that opts for SpD investment for mixed bulk.

Agreed.

Usually, dozo will tank a neutral special hit or two from special attackers when physdef. Like gholdengo Shadow Balls, Raging Bolt dragon pulses, etc. But like. This is stall???? Why are you going dozo on a ghold outside of the rare spdef dozo wincon or a last ditch effort to survive after you got crit in an endgame.

 

[darkmoonbeam]

I do not want to see Cucksire or Skelecuck back in my fucking OU tier.

Speaking of Stallmons, I noticed that a lot of stall matches revolve around Blissey, specifically trying to remove it or keep it. There’s no equivalent to Blissey for physical attackers, Dozo is the closest thing but it has to rely on Rest and coverage options. Darkrai for example absolutely defecates on it, as well as FRAUDcha and a lot of other stallmons, Tera Poison shuts down Pex and Gliscuck Toxic attempts, but you can’t release the Darkrai until you remove the Blissey. Status spreaders have to contend with Natural Cure and the occasional Heal Bell (FUCK Heal Bell). If Blissey and to a lesser extent Gliscuck goes down, your chances of beating stall significantly increase.

One thing that annoys me is how literally every Blissey runs Calm Mind. You really have to wonder who at GameFreak thought Blissey’s stat spread was a good idea. It feels like a sick joke from someone who was really mad about the physical/special split.

Uhmmmmm these two mons can still be used in the OU tier they aren't banned from it.

 

[Quackborg]

I think people are forgetting that Gamefreak are no longer balancing for singles. Instead, they cater primarily to their primary competitive format in doubles.

while this is true, just remember it could be worse. everything and their mother got knock in the dlc, if gambit got it i dont even wanna imagine... (not giving it to honchkrow dumb tho)

 

[volcanionisgood]

Ogerpon right now is overwhelming to deal with for balance teams and is almost single handedly making the playstyle unviable currently. I am hesitant to wave the ban hammer at everything.

My suggestion is to revert the sleep ban back to the clause it was for all the rest of comp mons history. The sleep clause ban artificially nerfed defensive grass types (a type that is generally bad defensively, but also necessary to have a lot of the time) resulting in no good defensive grass types in OU which is a huge reason oger feels overwhelming.

The immediate impact of this overturn is that amoongus is once again viable. A viable amoongus means that balance has something to not only deal with oger, but shut it down nigh completely, preventing ogerpon from being overbearing.

The sleep ban was unnecessary and pointless regardless. It is not like sleep moves were overbearing when we have gholdengo in the tier. I implore the council to consider this action before we try to ban ogerpon.

 

[pika pal]

while this is true, just remember it could be worse. everything and their mother got knock in the dlc, if gambit got it i dont even wanna imagine... (not giving it to honchkrow dumb tho)

I want to, because it would have made Gambit a definite ban instead of a wishy-washy prospect on a list of 5+ candidates.

Jokes aside, I feel like threat saturation is just reaching a point where nothing is inherently "more deserving" of getting removed, but the tier as-is is also not in the best place it can be, so it's hard to consider what I'd actually advocate for "objectively" as opposed to just what I'd want gone from that shortlist and my preferences (Kyurem and probably Tera Blast, full disclosure)