Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Can we stop comparing hidden power to tera blast in 2025, they function completely differently. Hidden Power is a move with lower opportunity cost that snipes mons with 4× weaknesses while being bad outside of that, Tera Blast is a very committal move that unlocks a second or third STAB.

For the record I'm anti tera blast ban because it just isn't broken and I'm not a huge fan of Volcarona's Flame Body coming back but using HP as a comparison doesn't work because of their very different applications.
 
veti said:
Can we stop comparing hidden power to tera blast in 2025
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No, I won't stop comparing HP with TB because, despite the differences that I myself have outlined, they are similar enough that I think the comparison is appropiate. And after briefly dipping my toes in Gen 7, they look the most similar to me for boost sweepers like Volcarona. And for Lando T, who now runs Tera Blast Ice to snipe those 4x weeknesses, maybe I haven't played vs that set enough, but it surprises you that 1 turn and then you have a choice scarfed ice type. I think that's worse than HP Ice.
 
Mimikyu Stardust said:
Okay but whats wrong with that? i just read these series of argument against kibo and they're aggressive for no good reason.

this is Metagame Discussion afterall, im still in the middle about tera ban but i think a lot of people agree that a suspect is overdue be it a full on tera suspect or something minor like tera blast. It is a fair critique of the meta even tho i disagree with some sentiments. Don't forget that the metagame we play is made by the community and mostly run by the community aswell. If someone like Kibo comes in to say "i dont like this meta because its unbalanced and it needs changes" they don't do it out of malice, rather love for the game. Towards the end of Gen 8 OU being current gen i extensively complained about the meta on how it can be changed to be less same-y with the same few balance and bulky offense threats being top tier creating a safe, boring meta game that doesn't express the same creativity or skill like it did during the better parts of the metagame. Why did i do that? because i enjoyed gen 8 ou before it was optimized, and when i saw the amount of regen spam and shifu future sight it lead to (in my opinion) a much more boring metagame centered around regenerator. So i went to the metagame forums to propose potential fixes to the metagame.

So why should we sit back when a metagame is not to our desire? why wait a non-disclosed amount of time for something to happen. I get the council has lives outside of forums but why is it wrong asking questions and complaining about whats wrong with the meta and suggesting potential fixes?

Why should we just ignore whats wrong with the meta and even worse, ignore other peoples gripe with the meta? if anything this should always be at the forefront of discussion before we can continue discussing what we can do with current meta. People play smogon's pokemon for the love of the game and as a hobby so it is within their right to complain about the meta and suggest changes, so that last post saying to come back when stuff you want is actually changing makes no sense when you yourself say to stop complaining about everything.

I do enjoy the current metagame but we should be open minded for potential changes and see if it can make for a better meta or not. I'll post about my thoughts at a later date but for now i just want to say this to prevent unecessary gatekeeping that has been going on here.
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Eh, I specifically apologized to them for coming off too aggressively. I still don't believe that shitting on the metagame for legit no reason with the same 2 arguments everyone's heard before is obscenely unproductive when it's clear that Tera will not be the focus of any tiering action anytime soon. If it ever becomes a new bigger issue then sure. But until then, all those types of posts do is waste breath.
 
Might sound absolutely insane, but what if we made a separate tier where tera is banned? Players could ladder there for a week or two, and we could unban a few things like Gouging Fire, regieleki, volcarona and maybe ogerpon-fire to see how the meta shapes up without tera.

Then, a suspect test on the current ladder to see whether tera should be kept or not. (You could still keep the other without tera )

Honestly, I think Tera is what keeps this meta fun and interesting, especially for casual players like me who don’t have time to ladder.
Barring Kyurem, Ogerpon-W, and maybe Kingambit, I think the meta is almost balanced.
 
Supersam10001 said:
Might sound absolutely insane, but what if we made a separate tier where tera is banned? Players could ladder there for a week or two, and we could unban a few things like Gouging Fire, regieleki, volcarona and maybe ogerpon-fire to see how the meta shapes up without tera.

Then, a suspect test on the current ladder to see whether tera should be kept or not. (You could still keep the other without tera )

Honestly, I think Tera is what keeps this meta fun and interesting, especially for casual players like me who don’t have time to ladder.
Barring Kyurem, Ogerpon-W, and maybe Kingambit, I think the meta is almost balanced.
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Splits laddering is the thing. The SV OU ladder is already pretty dead (at the top of the ladder) and when you take into account a whole new ladder just poofing into existence, it's gonna be kinda a mess. I can see this happening and it's the most realistic way tera gets banned but I still don't think it will happen.
 
Supersam10001 said:
Might sound absolutely insane, but what if we made a separate tier where tera is banned? Players could ladder there for a week or two, and we could unban a few things like Gouging Fire, regieleki, volcarona and maybe ogerpon-fire to see how the meta shapes up without tera.

Then, a suspect test on the current ladder to see whether tera should be kept or not. (You could still keep the other without tera )

Honestly, I think Tera is what keeps this meta fun and interesting, especially for casual players like me who don’t have time to ladder.
Barring Kyurem, Ogerpon-W, and maybe Kingambit, I think the meta is almost balanced.
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WAY MORE than 2 weeks. One or two month is better
 
Part of the issue is that a meta without Tera has less viable playstyles. Stall is unviable in a Teraless metagame as it can no longer Tera Dark or Steel to beat any setup sweeper with Psyshock.

The only way to mitigate this issue is to ban Gholdengo, Kingambit, Ogerpon-Wellspring, etc, which is a possibility, but the resulting chain of bans would be catastrophic and stall would still be mostly unviable anyways due to no longer having a way to beat Psyshock reliably.
 
RainebowValiant said:
Part of the issue is that a meta without Tera has less viable playstyles. Stall is unviable in a Teraless metagame as it can no longer Tera Dark or Steel to beat any setup sweeper with Psyshock.

The only way to mitigate this issue is to ban Gholdengo, Kingambit, Ogerpon-Wellspring, etc, which is a possibility, but the resulting chain of bans would be catastrophic and stall would still be mostly unviable anyways due to no longer having a way to beat Psyshock reliably.
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There's just so much to unpack here, especially considering the last few pages. This is just one wild statement after the other about a metagame that doesn't even exist. Can you expand on each of these?
 
Komodo_Drogo said:
There's just so much to unpack here, especially considering the last few pages. This is just one wild statement after the other about a metagame that doesn't even exist. Can you expand on each of these?
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1) stall is not viable if Tera gets banned. It relies so much on Tera Dark Blissey/Clod to the point that one of the two is LITERALLY required on every stall team. Stall will not be a playstyle outside of a hard fish if Tera gets banned. Take that as you will.

2) therefore, you must ban Gholdengo, the primary suspect. Invalidating stall with psyplot sets while having that level of usage would be broken, would it not? I get people hate stall but to completely eliminate it is insane and it would become broken.

3) same with Ogerpon-Wellspring to some extent. A lot of balances (not stalls, they have amoonguss) rely on a combination of Zamazenta and Tera Dragon Gliscor/Corviknight to handle Ogerpon-Wellspring, which is now nearly impossible to handle without Tera.

4) because of these two bans, the metagame will be radically different. Balance will flourish more than before, although not insanely, stall will still be pretty mediocre without the ability to reliably stop Psychic Noise and Psyshock and Stored Power, etc.
 
RainebowValiant said:
1) stall is not viable if Tera gets banned. It relies so much on Tera Dark Blissey/Clod to the point that one of the two is LITERALLY required on every stall team. Stall will not be a playstyle outside of a hard fish if Tera gets banned. Take that as you will.

2) therefore, you must ban Gholdengo, the primary suspect. Invalidating stall with psyplot sets while having that level of usage would be broken, would it not? I get people hate stall but to completely eliminate it is insane and it would become broken.

3) same with Ogerpon-Wellspring to some extent. A lot of balances (not stalls, they have amoonguss) rely on a combination of Zamazenta and Tera Dragon Gliscor/Corviknight to handle Ogerpon-Wellspring, which is now nearly impossible to handle without Tera.

4) because of these two bans, the metagame will be radically different. Balance will flourish more than before, although not insanely, stall will still be pretty mediocre without the ability to reliably stop Psychic Noise and Psyshock and Stored Power, etc.
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Again, this metagame doesn't exist, it's all hypothetical, based on the current metagame with tera. You're refusing to even humor the idea that the metagame could be better. Completely ignoring that there's the capacity to develop a meta. The logic you're using was also criticism for tera in the first place ironically, that to support it we'd have to ban a bunch of mons, and that it would be a slippery slope. As we see now, it didn't happen. People were wrong, I was wrong. Yes, I thought it at one point too, and it was a ridiculous leap. People can be wrong or change their minds, such as with gouging fire. Personally, I don't think banning tera fixes everything, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary to prop up the current gen either.
 
Komodo_Drogo said:
Again, this metagame doesn't exist, it's all hypothetical, based on the current metagame with tera. You're refusing to even humor the idea that the metagame could be better. Completely ignoring that there's the capacity to develop a meta. The logic you're using was also criticism for tera in the first place ironically, that to support it we'd have to ban a bunch of mons, and that it would be a slippery slope. As we see now, it didn't happen. People were wrong, I was wrong. Yes, I thought it at one point too, and it was a ridiculous leap. People can be wrong or change their minds, such as with gouging fire. Personally, I don't think banning tera fixes everything, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary to prop up the current gen either.
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I don't think the meta would be necessarily worse. I don't really care if it happens. That's not my point.

My point was that Tera is a different issue to discuss than Tera Blast because it completely uproots the metagame and transforms it, whereas Tera Blast is a minor quality of life change.

Address my arguments yall this is the 2nd or 3rd time in the last 10 posts lmao
 
RainebowValiant said:
Part of the issue is that a meta without Tera has less viable playstyles. Stall is unviable in a Teraless metagame as it can no longer Tera Dark or Steel to beat any setup sweeper with Psyshock.

The only way to mitigate this issue is to ban Gholdengo, Kingambit, Ogerpon-Wellspring, etc, which is a possibility, but the resulting chain of bans would be catastrophic and stall would still be mostly unviable anyways due to no longer having a way to beat Psyshock reliably.
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It's not even worth engaging with you anymore, this is the post I was addressing, where is tera blast mentioned here? Read your own posts lmao. You made a wild ass take, that I was genuinely confused about the logic and how you got there. " Stall is unviable in a Teraless metagame as it can no longer Tera Dark or Steel to beat any setup sweeper with Psyshock." You changed it to gholdengo when you realized how dumb it sounded, read your own posts.
 
RainebowValiant said:
I don't think the meta would be necessarily worse. I don't really care if it happens. That's not my point.

My point was that Tera is a different issue to discuss than Tera Blast because it completely uproots the metagame and transforms it, whereas Tera Blast is a minor quality of life change.

Address my arguments yall this is the 2nd or 3rd time in the last 10 posts lmao
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Tera Blast’s ban would trigger an unban of Volcarona and Regieleki, as well as foster a new metagame with now-new checks to prominent offensive threats potentially running around while offensive threats figure out other ways to get past their checks. Framing this as “a minor quality of life change” is absurd.
 
I think the reason Tera Blast gets brought up so much is that it's the only aspect of the metagame that looks like it might have a chance at getting banned. We've been in the same metagame for several months at this point, suspects keep coming and going but nothing ever happens.

While I'd personally love if we could look at some more controversial elements (Gambit, perhaps some ubers, maybe even Tera or Booster Energy), it's clear the appetite just isn't there among the wider playerbase and it's unlikely any would reach consensus, let alone a supermajority. I'm a bit less convinced nowadays that tera blast is really that problematic an element, but it does feel like there aren't that many other options if we want to see some change.
 
AerionT said:
. And for Lando T, who now runs Tera Blast Ice to snipe those 4x weeknesses, maybe I haven't played vs that set enough, but it surprises you that 1 turn and then you have a choice scarfed ice type. I think that's worse than HP Ice.
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lando-t runs tera blast fly if it runs tera blast at all
 
Komodo_Drogo said:
It's not even worth engaging with you anymore, this is the post I was addressing, where is tera blast mentioned here? Read your own posts lmao. You made a wild ass take, that I was genuinely confused about the logic and how you got there. " Stall is unviable in a Teraless metagame as it can no longer Tera Dark or Steel to beat any setup sweeper with Psyshock." You changed it to gholdengo when you realized how dumb it sounded, read your own posts.
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The reason I got into a tirade about the effects of Tera is because someone compared banning Tera Blast to banning Tera. Also yes, gholdengo is the main example. Psynoise hatterene, AV slowking-galar, SP latios, and more are all examples of this. I was using ghold because it's the main example.

Dead by Daylight said:
Tera Blast’s ban would trigger an unban of Volcarona and Regieleki, as well as foster a new metagame with now-new checks to prominent offensive threats potentially running around while offensive threats figure out other ways to get past their checks. Framing this as “a minor quality of life change” is absurd.
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It is a minor quality of life change compared to most bans/unbans, and DEFINITELY a minor change compared to banning Kingambit or Waterpon, which are other current issues right now. The only relevant mon that would drop would be Volcarona (regieleki would not be him I'm sorry) and that mon is just an anti-kyurem setup sweeper. It'd be cool to have, I like volcarona and it'd give stall/balance/offense/HO all a new option, but it's nowhere as radically changing as a Kingambit ban would be, for example.
 
Dead by Daylight said:
Tera Blast’s ban would trigger an unban of Volcarona and Regieleki, as well as foster a new metagame with now-new checks to prominent offensive threats potentially running around while offensive threats figure out other ways to get past their checks. Framing this as “a minor quality of life change” is absurd.
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Let’s be honest: Tera Blast ban isn’t shaking up the metagame in any significant way. Iron Moth falls a little, some sweepers lost one of the five sets they run, but by and large the metagame will remain mostly the same.

Now, a Volcarona unban would actually change a bit: a decrease in Kyurem, potential decrease in Iron Moth and Darkrai… but are these really any major impacts? Volcarona isn’t going to be some great metagame shifter without Tera Blast, and at most will cause slight decreases/increases in usage for some mons. Framing Tera Blast ban as a major metagame shifter is absurd.
 
Assuming that Landorus running Tera Ice or Tera Flying also run Tera Blast (They almost always do). These are the stats for December

Tera Flying UsageTera Ice UsageTotal Tera Blast Usage
16959.822% 3.568% 13.242%
182514.180% 4.754%18.771%

Tera Flying is ran about 3x as much, which essentially means Tera Blast sets are running Tera Flying 3/4ths of the time.

Although the Ice usage is not inconsiderable.
 
Ehmcee said:
Assuming that Landorus running Tera Ice or Tera Flying also run Tera Blast (They almost always do). These are the stats for December

Tera Flying UsageTera Ice UsageTotal Tera Blast Usage
16959.822%3.568%13.242%
182514.180%4.754%18.771%

Tera Flying is ran about 3x as much, which essentially means Tera Blast sets are running Tera Flying 3/4ths of the time.

Although the Ice usage is not inconsiderable.
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Good post. Honestly, if I wanted to piss off lando and scor, I'd just go gking + weather ball lando. It gives you a nice (if niche) attack to hit mons like Venusaur in Sun, Zapdos in Rain, random mons in Sand, etc, while also giving you a decently strong 100 BP 4x super effective attack against lando and scor without burning Tera.
 
Ehmcee said:
Assuming that Landorus running Tera Ice or Tera Flying also run Tera Blast (They almost always do). These are the stats for December

Tera Flying UsageTera Ice UsageTotal Tera Blast Usage
16959.822%3.568% 13.242%
182514.180%4.754%18.771%

Tera Flying is ran about 3x as much, which essentially means Tera Blast sets are running Tera Flying 3/4ths of the time.

Although the Ice usage is not inconsiderable.
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What does it do? Do you run tera flying with SD or Scarf? Is it not outclassed by Tera Blast Flying Dnite or Acro RM?
 
AerionT said:
What does it do? Do you run tera flying with SD or Scarf? Is it not outclassed by Tera Blast Flying Dnite or Acro RM?
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Both. SD lando is different than Dragonite in the sense that it has 145 fucking attack and actually has stab moves that hit hard and aren't dogshit.

Lando STABs are a 2x STAB Tera Blast and a STAB earthquake with the force to OHKO a toxapex.

Dnite moves are Espeed (effective ~55 BP STAB move), Ice Spinner (effective ~55 BP STAB move), Earthquake (effective ~66 BP STAB move), and Fire Punch (effective 50 BP STAB move). The only hard hitting moves it has are Outrage and Scale Shot, both of which have consistency issues.

This is also why dnite, despite having 134 attack, feels so weak. It's unable to OHKO 252/4 timid pecharunt at +6 with ice spinner not because it's weak, but because its moves are PITIFULLY low in the BP department.
 
RainebowValiant said:
Both. SD lando is different than Dragonite in the sense that it has 145 fucking attack and actually has stab moves that hit hard and aren't dogshit.

Lando STABs are a 2x STAB Tera Blast and a STAB earthquake with the force to OHKO a toxapex.

Dnite moves are Espeed (effective ~55 BP STAB move), Ice Spinner (effective ~55 BP STAB move), Earthquake (effective ~66 BP STAB move), and Fire Punch (effective 50 BP STAB move). The only hard hitting moves it has are Outrage and Scale Shot, both of which have consistency issues.

This is also why dnite, despite having 134 attack, feels so weak. It's unable to OHKO 252/4 timid pecharunt at +6 with ice spinner not because it's weak, but because its moves are PITIFULLY low in the BP department.
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+6 252 Atk Dragonite Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Pecharunt: 236-278 (62.1 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I've lost games to this before. Wtf is this shit. (It was Balloon don't say "just use eq")
 
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